You ever wonder how myths and mythical creatures came into being?

[coldheartzero]

So yeah the topic.

 

I'm a big fan of mythology, not a master or even remotely claim to be but I do like it, I do read a lot and I've got a lot of stored up useless info about different mythology and mythos.

 

So more to the point,,,, how do you think people originally thunk up things like centaurs? I've read stories that Native Americans upon first seeing men on horseback thought they were centaurs before they had a name for them. (for those that don't know, horses went extinct in NA 11,000 years ago and then were brought over from the old world around 1500) So basically natives had no frickin' clue what a horse was.

 

Other creatures like dragons are a real conundrum, because it's one of the few mythological beasts that have tales all over the world. Not so much in NA but lots in SA and pretty much everywhere in the old world.

 

Mermaids,,, really, how dafuq did they come up with that one?

 

Just random ramblings.

[Alessia Wellington]

Spoiler

[Guest]

☝️ > this

 

[MadMansGun]

1 hour ago, coldheartzero said:

Other creatures like dragons are a real conundrum, because it's one of the few mythological beasts that have tales all over the world. Not so much in NA but lots in SA and pretty much everywhere in the old world.

fossil remains of dinosaurs. also Crocodiles & Alligators are a thing.

[2dk2c.2]

10 hours ago, coldheartzero said:

So yeah the topic.

 

I'm a big fan of mythology, not a master or even remotely claim to be but I do like it, I do read a lot and I've got a lot of stored up useless info about different mythology and mythos.

 

So more to the point,,,, how do you think people originally thunk up things like centaurs? I've read stories that Native Americans upon first seeing men on horseback thought they were centaurs before they had a name for them. (for those that don't know, horses went extinct in NA 11,000 years ago and then were brought over from the old world around 1500) So basically natives had no frickin' clue what a horse was.

 

Other creatures like dragons are a real conundrum, because it's one of the few mythological beasts that have tales all over the world. Not so much in NA but lots in SA and pretty much everywhere in the old world.

 

Mermaids,,, really, how dafuq did they come up with that one?

 

Just random ramblings.

Bullfinch's Mythology, most boring book in history (like reading a dictionary)

Arthurian Legend, the same (except for the movies, OTG)

Whatsername (Daenerys??) had mythical beauty and then you all screwed her up for ratings.

 

I've been poring over Pterodactyls, Dragons and Phoenixes, 

Remember these guys wrote books about dots in the sky.

Leaving out alien abductions, I'd say the imagination-lady and the fossil -guy covered it to my satisfaction.

Edited April 27, 2023 by 2dk2c.2

[FauxFurry]

A desire for definitive answers in a time where accurate information was difficult to come by, not only because information gathering technologies and techniques were incredibly rudimentary if they were existent at all or lethal to the ones gathering that information, leaving it up to the survivors to learn from their mistakes. 

[Grey Cloud]

On 4/27/2023 at 6:58 AM, coldheartzero said:

I'm a big fan of mythology, not a master or even remotely claim to be but I do like it, I do read a lot and I've got a lot of stored up useless info about different mythology and mythos.

 

First - avoid the mistake of lumping all 'mythological' creatures as having the same origin.

 

Second - Books such as Bullfinches Mythology and other mass market publications are so far off the mark of modern scholarship that they are worthless.  A good example of this would be the Sirens. In Odyssey they offer Odysseus knowledge but in mythology books they always 'lure sailors to their deaths'.

 

‘Come closer, famous Odysseus—Achaea’s pride and glory—

moor your ship on our coast so you can hear our song!

Never has any sailor passed our shores in his black craft

until he has heard the honeyed voices pouring from our lips,

and once he hears to his heart’s content sails on, a wiser man.

We know all the pains that Achaeans and Trojans once endured

on the spreading plain of Troy when the gods willed it so—

all that comes to pass on the fertile earth, we know it all!’

Book XII

You'll learn more about the Sirens listening to the lyric of this:

 

Centaurs - You are more or less correct about them. If you examine where there stories originate/take place you find that they are from the area where anyone coming from the steppe enters the Greek peninsula. The Kentauri also carry the traditional weapons of the steppe horse people such as the Scythians. Interestingly they tend to get drunk easily and start 'molestin' the white women' which causes fights, feuds and wars. See the story of Theseus (an historical person).

 

A similar case can be made for the Amazons - men and women dressed the same and in some steppe tribes the women fought and hunted.

 

Dragons are are more complicated and tend to get lumped in with things like giant serpents (dragon means serpent). Another peculiarity of dragons is that in the west they are generally seen as bad whereas in the east (China) they are seen as good.

Dragons can be comets (Greek: 'long-haired star) see Vrtra and perhaps Tiamat. Dragons can also represent 'Mind' such as in The Poimandres (I think) and in the story of Saint George and the Dragon (which is an alchemical allegory).

 

Then there are composite creatures such as the Chimera or the Minotaur.

Edited April 29, 2023 by Grey Cloud

[Heroine HoneyCrotch]

4 hours ago, coldheartzero said:

because it's one of the few mythological beasts that have tales

comets have tails

 

[puss2puss]

it kinda goes with it..

A new creature appears so theres a story that goes with it. It just wouldnt be interesting to just present a creature without any background, like Zuckerberg.

[Miauzi]

1 hour ago, Grey Cloud said:

 

Erstens - vermeiden Sie den Fehler, alle "mythologischen" Kreaturen in einen Topf zu werfen, als hätten sie denselben Ursprung.

 

Zweitens - Bücher wie Bullfinches Mythology und andere Massenmarktpublikationen sind so weit von der Marke der modernen Wissenschaft entfernt, dass sie wertlos sind. Ein gutes Beispiel dafür wären die Sirenen. In Odyssey bieten sie Odysseus Wissen an, aber in Mythologiebüchern locken sie immer Seeleute in den Tod.

 

„ Komm näher, berühmter Odysseus – Achaias Stolz und Ruhm –

Machen Sie Ihr Schiff an unserer Küste fest, damit Sie unser Lied hören können!

Noch nie hat ein Matrose unsere Küsten in seinem schwarzen Boot passiert

bis er die honigsüßen Stimmen von unseren Lippen fließen hört,

und sobald er nach Herzenslust hört, segelt ein klügerer Mann weiter.

Wir kennen alle Schmerzen, die Achäer und Trojaner einst erlitten haben

auf der ausgedehnten Ebene von Troja, als die Götter es so wollten –

alles, was auf der fruchtbaren Erde geschieht, wir wissen es! '

Buch XII

Sie werden mehr über die Sirenen erfahren, wenn Sie sich den Text davon anhören:

 

Zentauren - Sie haben mehr oder weniger Recht mit ihnen. Wenn Sie untersuchen, wo diese Geschichten entstehen/stattfinden, stellen Sie fest, dass sie aus dem Gebiet stammen, in dem jeder, der aus der Steppe kommt, die griechische Halbinsel betritt. Die Kentauri tragen auch die traditionellen Waffen der Steppenpferdevölker wie der Skythen. Interessanterweise neigen sie dazu, sich leicht zu betrinken und beginnen, die weißen Frauen zu „belästigen“, was zu Kämpfen, Fehden und Kriegen führt. Siehe die Geschichte von Theseus (einer historischen Person).

 

Ähnliches gilt für die Amazonen – Männer und Frauen sind gleich gekleidet, und in einigen Steppenstämmen kämpften und jagten die Frauen.

 

Drachen sind komplizierter und neigen dazu, mit Dingen wie Riesenschlangen in einen Topf geworfen zu werden (Drache bedeutet Schlange). Eine weitere Besonderheit der Drachen ist, dass sie im Westen allgemein als schlecht angesehen werden, während sie im Osten (China) als gut angesehen werden.

Drachen können Kometen (griechisch: 'langhaariger Stern) sein, siehe Vrtra und vielleicht Tiamat. Sie können auch „Geist“ darstellen, wie in The Poimandres (glaube ich) und in der Geschichte von Saint George and the Dragon (eine alchemistische Allegorie).

 

Dann gibt es zusammengesetzte Kreaturen wie die Chimäre oder den Minotaurus.

 

Since you mention the sirens...

...they have different starting points even in Europe.
And so a siren from Irish or Scottish sagas differs significantly from a siren from ancient Greek sagas.

I once learned (at school) - that legends differ from fairy tales in one respect -> Legends have a historical (and therefore verifiable) core.

In the case of the Irish sirens, seals and sea dogs are the starting point - they are even part of this myth.

With the Greek sirens ... well, among other things, dolphins serve as a source here.
And the whistling/chattering of dolphins can irritate a swimmer/diver...
...I swam "after" a pod of dolphins myself for 30 minutes.
I could hear them... see their dorsal fins on the surface - but underwater they have always stayed just out of my own line of sight... I could almost physically feel their echolocation (the only audible clicks and whistles are noise as by-products)

So yes - I've swam after sea sirens myself

?

[Grey Cloud]

1 hour ago, Heroine HoneyCrotch said:

comets have tails

There is an entire catalogue of comet attributes - heads, tails, beards, crowns, etc.

 

There is also a discipline called 'Catastrophism' which, among other things, looks at the relationship between myths involving the sky and historical events such as the Younger Dryas Event and the Late Bronze Age Collapse.

Having studied catastrophism for 15 +/- years I have little time for all the bleeding heart liberals who harp on about AGW.

Edited April 27, 2023 by Grey Cloud

[Grey Cloud]

15 minutes ago, puss2puss said:

it kinda goes with it.

What goes with what?

 

15 minutes ago, puss2puss said:

A new creature appears so theres a story that goes with it. It just wouldnt be interesting to just present a creature without any background

Then why are are there not tens/hundreds of thousands of mythological stories about about 'new' creatures?

 

8 minutes ago, Miauzi said:

And so a siren from Irish or Scottish sagas differs significantly from a siren from ancient Greek sagas.

Then they are not sirens. Sirens are described as part bird not part fish. Birds are creatures of the air; air is mind. Fish are creatures of water; water is soul.

 

15 minutes ago, Miauzi said:

I once learned (at school) - that legends differ from fairy tales in one respect -> Legends have a historical (and therefore verifiable) core.

Scholars have definitions for myth, legend and folk/fairy-tale.

 

'Myth' means story or tale in Greek so essentially myths are allegory. They contain information which is important to a culture in a format which can be conveyed to an uneducated majority and an educated minority.

 

 

 

[Miauzi]

Vor 5 Minuten sagte Grey Cloud:

Dann sind es keine Sirenen. Sirenen werden als teils Vogel, teils Fisch beschrieben. Vögel sind Geschöpfe der Luft; Luft ist Geist. Fische sind Geschöpfe des Wassers; Wasser ist Seele.

 

 

 

Aus welchen Reiseführer durch die Galaxis hast Du denn diese Definition entnommen?

 

oder entspricht dies nur einer typischen kulturellen Arroganz - das nur die eigene Definition bestimmt - was andere Völker/Rassen als Mythos haben sollen??

 

Nein - natürlich sind die Sirenen der Iren keine Sirenen - weil bitte WER festlegt was eine im Meer schwimmende und singende Frau zu sein hat??

?

[Grey Cloud]

44 minutes ago, Miauzi said:

 

Aus welchen Reiseführer durch die Galaxis hast Du denn diese Definition entnommen?

 

oder entspricht dies nur einer typischen kulturellen Arroganz - das nur die eigene Definition bestimmt - was andere Völker/Rassen als Mythos haben sollen??

 

Nein - natürlich sind die Sirenen der Iren keine Sirenen - weil bitte WER festlegt was eine im Meer schwimmende und singende Frau zu sein hat??

?

Siren is a Greek word so if we are talking about 'sirens' then we are talking about the Greek sirens. Any other culture will have its own word. Lumping any and every creature associated with the sea under the umbrella of 'sirens' is nonsense.

If I am not mistaken, Homer (Odyssey) is the earliest mention of sirens and he describes them as part bird and nothing to do with fish or any type of marine creature.

In mythology names and the meaning of names are important.

 

Many cultures have stories of a source for knowledge (Truth) - Odin/Wotan speaks with the Volva; the youth in Parmenides' poem visits an unnamed goddess; Yama the god of death is visited by Nachiketa in the Katha Upanishad.

 

 

Odin/Wotan - Mind, wit, sense; song, poetry.

Nachiketa - Negation, consciousness, comet.

 

 

Edited April 27, 2023 by Grey Cloud

[Miauzi]

Vor 11 Minuten sagte Grey Cloud:

Sirene ist ein griechisches Wort, wenn wir also über „Sirenen“ sprechen, dann sprechen wir über die griechischen Sirenen. Jede andere Kultur hat ihr eigenes Wort. Jedes Lebewesen, das mit dem Meer in Verbindung gebracht wird, unter dem Dach der „Sirenen“ in einen Topf zu werfen, ist Unsinn.

Wenn ich mich nicht irre, ist Homer (Odyssee) die früheste Erwähnung von Sirenen und er beschreibt sie als teilweise Vögel und nichts mit Fischen oder irgendeiner Art von Meereslebewesen zu tun.

In der Mythologie sind Namen und die Bedeutung von Namen wichtig.

 

Viele Kulturen haben Geschichten über eine Quelle für Wissen (Wahrheit) - Odin/Wotan spricht mit der Volva; die Jugend in Parmenides' Gedicht besucht eine namenlose Göttin; Yama, der Gott des Todes, wird von Nachiketa in der Katha Upanishad besucht.

 

 

Odin/Wotan - Geist, Witz, Sinn; Lied, Poesie.

Nachiketa - Verneinung, Bewusstsein, Komet.

 

 

No - YOU are talking about Greek sirens - I am talking about sirens in general.

that would be the same if you say "democracy" - a Greek word and it only and exclusively refers to the historical Greek democracy...

...a "democracy" which, by today's standards, should result in exclusion from the UN and the breaking off of all diplomatic relations - including being expelled from NATO and the European Union!

Why? -> because of open slavery

so be very careful when using and/or excluding terms based on their "historical" origin

 

[Grey Cloud]

5 minutes ago, Miauzi said:

I am talking about sirens in general.

There are no 'sirens in general'. Either they are sirens or they are not. If they are a creature from a different culture then they will have a different name and attributes. E.g. mermaids are mermaids; they are not sirens. Scottish and Irish 'mermaids' do not seem to have any connection with or to the gaining of knowledge and they live in water not on land. Mermaids are also mediaeval folk-lore and not ancient mythology.

 

 

8 minutes ago, Miauzi said:

that would be the same if you say "democracy"

False analogy. Democracy is a term used for an abstract - siren is a name used for a specific creature.

 

Democracy is a political system and slavery is an economic system. Either one can exist without the other.

 

 

14 minutes ago, Miauzi said:

so be very careful when using and/or excluding terms based on their "historical" origin

This statement is nonsense. What is the alternative? To make up word meanings as and when one wishes? In any case it has nothing to do with 'historical' meaning - it is etymological.

If one is attempting to understand something from, say, 2,500 years ago then one has to use the meaning of words from that period. One cannot use modern meanings.

 

[coldheartzero]

Wow,,, didn't take long for the dumb to start. It was interesting while it lasted though.

 

Most of what was said I pretty much knew about, it was just a funny thought I had about how dafuq people thunk up stuff. It boils down to a lack of education and understanding by ancient folks.

 

Thanks for participating in my 52 hours of no sleep musings. Finally slept for like 12 hours lol.

 

It was aliens all along.

[beefers]

Myth and religion are born from ignorance, plain and simple.  When we don't understand something, the mind comes up with all sorts of weird explanations.  The more we discover and learn how things really work, religion, myth and magic start to disappear.

[Grey Cloud]

On 4/27/2023 at 9:58 PM, beefers said:

Myth and religion are born from ignorance, plain and simple

And your evidence for this would be what?

You have studied the origins of neither mythology or religion. All you have is your prejudice born of ignorance.

 

On 4/27/2023 at 9:58 PM, beefers said:

religion, myth and magic start to disappear.

There are more religions today with more practitioners than at any time in the past. Thousands of academics around the world are studying mythology. Magic was never that big of a thing in the ancient world. Magic too has its share of academics studying it.

 

On 4/27/2023 at 9:46 PM, coldheartzero said:

Wow,,, didn't take long for the dumb to start

Just until your second post.

 

On 4/27/2023 at 9:46 PM, coldheartzero said:

It boils down to a lack of education and understanding by ancient folks.

Indeed Homer, Parmenides, Plato, et al  - bunch of thickos. Actually read any of them per chance?

Edited April 29, 2023 by Grey Cloud

[Grey Cloud]

On 4/27/2023 at 9:58 PM, beefers said:

When we don't understand something, the mind comes up with all sorts of weird explanations.

I don't understand Swahili. My explanation for it is that it is a human language I don't understand.

Edited April 29, 2023 by Grey Cloud

[FauxFurry]

54 minutes ago, coldheartzero said:

Wow,,, didn't take long for the dumb to start. It was interesting while it lasted though.

 

Most of what was said I pretty much knew about, it was just a funny thought I had about how dafuq people thunk up stuff. It boils down to a lack of education and understanding by ancient folks.

 

Thanks for participating in my 52 hours of no sleep musings. Finally slept for like 12 hours lol.

 

It was aliens all along.

Perhaps this is one for the R.I.P. thread.

[KoolHndLuke]

You hire Mark K. Jones. Most of Beth's more interesting creatures came from him I think and they continue to be a part of the ES universe still.

 

Edited April 27, 2023 by KoolHndLuke

[Grey Cloud]

Kathryn Morgan. MYTH AND PHILOSOPHY FROM THE PRESOCRATICS TO PLATO. C.U.P. 2000 AND 2004.

This book explores the dynamic interpenetration of myth and philosophy in the Presocratics, the sophists, and in Plato – an interpenetration which is found to be more extensive and programmatic than has previously been recognised. The story of philosophy’s relationship with myth is that of its relationship with literary and social convention. The intellectuals studied here wanted to reformulate popular ideas about cultural authority, and they achieve this goal by manipulating myth. Their self-conscious use of myth creates a self-reflective philosophical sensibility and draws attention to problems inherent in different modes of linguistic representation. Much of the reception of Greek philosophy stigmatises myth as ‘irrational’. Such an approach ignores the important role played by myth in Greek philosophy, not just as a foil but as a mode of philosophical thought. The case studies in this book reveal myth deployed as result of methodological reflection, and as a manifestation of philosophical concerns.

 

 

========================

 

Robert A. Segal. Myth: A Very Short Introduction. O.U.P. 2004.

 

Introduction: Theories of myth
Let me be clear from the outset: this book is an introduction not
to myths but to approaches to myth, or theories of myth, and it
is limited to modern theories. Theories of myth may be as old
as myths themselves. Certainly they go back at least to the
Presocratics. But only in the modern era – specifically, only since
the second half of the nineteenth century – have those theories
purported to be scientific. For only since then have there existed the
professional disciplines that have sought to supply truly scientific
theories of myth: the social sciences, of which anthropology,
psychology, and to a lesser extent sociology have contributed the
most. Some social scientific theories of myth may have earlier
counterparts, but scientific theorizing is still different from earlier
theorizing. Where earlier theorizing was largely speculative and
abstract, scientific theorizing is based far more on accumulated
information.
 

=====================

 

Just a couple of examples from books I own to illustrate that serious scholarship views myths as a tad more than the ramblings of ignorant ancients.
 

[Grey Cloud]

32 minutes ago, FauxFurry said:

Perhaps this is one for the R.I.P. thread.

Why? Because it opens a can of worms which is beyond the comfort zone of most of the people around here?

[Mr. Otaku]

Because people either thought they were cool or connected to some spiritual bullshit, it's not that deep. Not that i'm complaining, they gave us a lot of cool concepts to build fantasy stories out of.

 

End thread.