You ever wonder how myths and mythical creatures came into being?

[spoonsinger]

10 hours ago, Grey Cloud said:

American by any chance?

 

Nope, It's just the way I walk.

[Grey Cloud]

If you can't handle the full 45 minutes just listen to the last 5 (40 mins ->) and what he says about knowledge. He makes his silly little joke right at the end because he has no knowledge of catastrophism (or at least none he will admit to).

 

I learned that Adapa and Oannes are one and the same individual so what this guy says about Adapa, what Berossus says about Oannes and how I interpret the Oannes story all fit nicely together.

 

This guy should do himself a favour and read up on the traditional Indian method of constructing a temple. He may also want to look at the role of jarls in the Scandinavian texts and also the Kalevala.

 

From Penn Museum

 

Edited May 2, 2023 by Grey Cloud

[Grey Cloud]

Myth as Freudian psycho-babble.

Interpretation of the Chimaera was interesting; that of the Sirens almost non-existent; and the Centaurs all sexual and darkest, innermost blah, blah, blah.

Little mention given of the association of Chiron ("the wisest and justest of all the centaurs) and others and their reputation for knowledge.

No mention of the relationship with the words 'dolphin' and 'Delphi'.

Completely misses what is happening with Odysseus and the Sirens even though the image he uses has most of it.

 

 

Edited May 5, 2023 by Grey Cloud

[Grey Cloud]

This guy does like to introduce crap from modern pop culture at the beginning of his talks. An attempt to influence his audience in the direction of his take.

But:

As Herbert Butterfield (1931, 16) stated, “The study of the past with one eye,
so to speak, upon the present is the source of all sins and sophistries in
history, starting with the simplest of them, anachronism.”

 

 

Edited May 5, 2023 by Grey Cloud

[TheBadGirlEmma]

I dunno. People in ancient times didn’t really have shit to do except create other shit, so they looked at the world around them and created stories and shit about how they thought it all came around. That’s my thought, anyway. My girl’s way more into this mythology shit than I am, so maybe she could tell you.

[Grey Cloud]

On 5/4/2023 at 2:01 AM, TheBadGirlEmma said:

I dunno. People in ancient times didn’t really have shit to do except create other shit, so they looked at the world around them and created stories and shit about how they thought it all came around. That’s my thought, anyway. My girl’s way more into this mythology shit than I am, so maybe she could tell you.

You should have stopped after "I dunno".

Your post is full of shit and Dolly Daydream already gave us her 'thoughts'.

 

People in ancient times did international trade, philosophy, architecture, art, mathematics, poetry and a whole pile of other 'shit'.

[Grey Cloud]

Half an hour well spent. The lecture is an hour but the first half was sufficient for what I am interested.

You would be hard pressed to find a more enthusiastic lecturer.

University of Birmingham

 

He raises some really good points and shows some interesting parallels with India.

Scholarship has moved the origin of chariot using warriors further east towards the Urals (Yamnaya culture).

He is missing the concept of catastrophism which would better explain why there is no happy ending in either Homer or the Mahabharata.

 

 

[Grey Cloud]

A couple of examples of ancient folk not being smarter than you fink.

 

This is from the first English translation of the Vishnu Purana in 1840.

 

06. 'One and seventy enumerations of the four ages, with a surplus.' A similar
reading occurs in several other Puráńas, but none of them state of what the
surplus or addition consists; but it is, in fact, the number of years required to
reconcile two computations of the Kalpa. The most simple, and probably the
original calculation of a Kalpa, is its being 1000 great ages, or ages of the
gods: ### Bhavishya P. Then 4.320.000 years, or a divine age, x 1000 =
4320.000.000 years, or a day or night of Brahmá,. But a day of Brahmá is also
seventy-one times a great age multiplied by fourteen: 4.320.000 x 71 x 14=
4.294.080.000, or less than the preceding by 25.920.000; and it is to make up
for this deficiency that a certain number of years must be added to the
computation by Manwantaras.
 

The section is about time (kala) but the translator doesn't get the relevance of the 25,920 years. I would suggest that it is the length of a precessional year. Also the number 432 with varying numbers of zeros features in many cultures.

 

Here's one from the Odyssey.

As soon as early Dawn appeared, the rosy-fingered, we roamed throughout the isle marvelling at it; and the nymphs, the daughters of Zeus who bears the aegis, roused [155] the mountain goats, that my comrades might have whereof to make their meal. Straight away we took from the ships our curved bows and long javelins, and arrayed in three bands we fell to smiting; and the god soon gave us game to satisfy our hearts. The ships that followed me were twelve, and to each [160] nine goats fell by lot, but for me alone they chose out ten.
Odyssey Bk 9.151

 

There is astronomical information encoded in that passage.

3 bands

12 ships

9 goats

10 goats for Odysseus

1 Odysseus

 

12 x 9 = 108

108 x 3 = 354 = length of lunar year

 

10 + 1 = 11

354 + 11 = 365 = length of solar year

 

Homer obviously didn't know that the ancients only had a 360 day solar year.

[Clea Strange]

My favorite is Dracula who is based off of a real life figure called Vlad the Impaler.

[Grey Cloud]

7 hours ago, Clea Strange said:

My favorite is Dracula who is based off of a real life figure called Vlad the Impaler.

Vampires are not mythological, they are folk-lore which is different. Most of what you think you know about 'Dracula' and Vlad the Impaler comes from popular culture.

 

Dracula was mostly written in the 1890s. Stoker produced over a hundred pages of notes for the novel, drawing extensively from Transylvanian folklore and history. Some scholars have suggested that the character of Dracula was inspired by historical figures like the Wallachian prince Vlad the Impaler or the countess Elizabeth Báthory, but there is widespread disagreement. Stoker's notes mention neither figure. He found the name Dracula in Whitby's public library while holidaying there, picking it because he thought it meant devil in Romanian.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dracula

Edited May 10, 2023 by Grey Cloud

[Grey Cloud]

@Clea Strange I don't know what is going on but over the last several days I have had notifications that you have quoted me in this thread but when I get here there is nothing. ?‍♂️

[Yinkle]

Mushrooms | Dreams

Edited May 12, 2023 by Yinkle

[Grey Cloud]

55 minutes ago, Yinkle said:

Mushrooms | Dreams

Evidence or example of such a mythological story? Can you point to a credible source who as maintained this idea? Can you give a rough time period when such myths were first created?

[Alessia Wellington]

12 minutes ago, Grey Cloud said:

Can you point to a credible source who as maintained this idea?

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/santa-claus-saint-nicholas-history-christmas-myths-psychedelic-mushrooms-reindeer-a8688911.html

[Grey Cloud]

1 hour ago, Alessia Wellington said:

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/santa-claus-saint-nicholas-history-christmas-myths-psychedelic-mushrooms-reindeer-a8688911.html

"ancient myths

from Medieval times"

Yellow = Not a myth. Red = Contradictory.

Couldn't get past the headline without failing.

 

 

 

Wilfrid Laurier University Press The Religious Dreamworld of Apuleius' Metamorphoses, Recovering a Forgotten Hermeneutic (1999)

Lexington Books Pharmakon, Plato Drug Culture and Identity in Ancient Athens (2010)

 

[Alessia Wellington]

6 minutes ago, Grey Cloud said:

Couldn't get past the headline without failing.

 

It was the only one I could find involving mushrooms. 

[worik]

37 minutes ago, Alessia Wellington said:

It was the only one I could find involving mushrooms

I could try to retell things from my grandgrandparents. But they never knew what "internet" is and didn't post their mushroom-ish knowlegde there. ?

 

Plus, it wouldn't be "ancient". 

It would be more like "folk tales & myths"

Edited May 12, 2023 by worik

[Yinkle]

3 hours ago, Yinkle said:

Mushrooms | Dreams

I have no hard evidence, but going on the nature of my dreams (and experiences with mushrooms) it wouldn't surprise me that these were the roots of such ideas.

[Grey Cloud]

2 hours ago, Yinkle said:

I have no hard evidence

There are thousands of years worth of evidence. Myths (= tales) are produced to record things that are important to a particular group or culture*. They are not the random dreams/trips of one particular individual.

 

*As an example: Greek myths are not 'Greek' myths for the most part. There are Athenian myths (e.g. Theseus), Corinthian myths (e.g. Bellerphoron), Theban myths (e.g. Kadmus, Oedipus) and so on. I'm not sure about Bellerphoron but the other three were historical people. All except Oedipus fought monsters BTW.

[Yinkle]

10 minutes ago, Grey Cloud said:

There are Athenian myths (e.g. Theseus), Corinthian myths (e.g. Bellerphoron), Theban myths (e.g. Kadmus, Oedipus) and so on. I'm not sure about Bellerphoron but the other three were historical people. All except Oedipus fought monsters BTW.

I suspect that the original authors of these tales ate mushrooms, had vivid imaginations or interesting dreams. Either that or the world we live in today is not the same place!

[Grey Cloud]

38 minutes ago, Yinkle said:

Either that or the world we live in today is not the same place!

We have television they had the likes of Homer, Plato, Lao, the Seven Rishis and whoever wrote the Popol Vuh.

Have you ever heard of allegory?

[Grey Cloud]

Nothing to do with myths as such but posting it to give another example showing that ancient people were intelligent and were not just sat around pulling weird stories out of their arses for want of something to do.

 

Road Built 7,000 Years Ago Found at The Bottom of The Mediterranean Sea

https://www.sciencealert.com/road-built-7000-years-ago-found-at-the-bottom-of-the-mediterranean-sea

 

Typically sensationalist headline. The find is off the coast of Croatia so it's the Adriatic rather than the Mediterranean proper. And the image shows a guy wearing scuba gear so around 100 feet down rather than the 'bottom of the sea'.

 

 

[Splendor Solis]

Sorry for the late response, but this is an interesting topic. I would split the theories of how these myths came about into two camps: archetypal and perennial. Archetypal would be that they're somehow fixed in our psyche, so they will naturally come out in dreams, in art, during hallucinations, etc. Perennial would be that there's an original source for them that was passed down through the ages.

 

The most common explanation for the emergence of these sorts of archetypes is evolutionary. For example, snakes are dangerous to humans, so over time we developed strong instinctive reactions to them. I've never had a negative experience with a snake, but I'm creeped out by them, and so are a significant percentage of the population. Fear of babies, clouds, and fluffy kittens? Not so much. Dreams about snakes are also incredibly common, the most common in many countries.

 

On a less materialistic note, the subconscious is often seen as a doorway to higher planes. Things real on a higher level would leak through the subconscious and into human art, dreams, religion, etc. So you would have, say, a Platonic Form of a dragon and that would trickle its way into the human psyche. It's easy to dismiss this, but remember that there are often strong emotions behind numinous experiences. If we look at UFO experiences and compare it to past things like spirits, fairies, etc, it's very clearly the same phenomena. Advancements in our understanding of the world didn't eliminate this; it only changed its form from a more firmly spiritual one to one that is, on the surface, easier to reconcile with science.

 

Myths could also develop as human tribes and organizations developed. If we look at "primitive" tribes, they don't have as strong a concept of individuality as modern humans do. When their shaman put on a badly made mask and pretended to be a god, he is actually seen as being that god. Certain myths could be holdovers from those struggles we went through as our consciousness developed from this primitive collective to our more modern state.

 

As for the perennial theory, it's much more schizo-approved. These typically involve ayy's or a primordial golden age. Aliens, e.g. lyrans, reptilians, greys, the anunnaki, etc being involved with early humanity, sharing some themes, and for some reason leaving. Humans then, supposedly, held onto these themes throughout history. It often takes a much more literal approach to things such as human-animal hybrids and says that these were actual attempts at genetically engineering humanity. Aliens are an interesting topic, but I just said that they don't seem different from "spiritual beings", so I clearly don't know enough to talk about them so objectively.

 

The golden age-side tends to be heavily influenced by a disaster around 10,000 BC. (This was popularized by Graham Hancock) They look at the Greek and Vedic talk of a past golden age and see it as something real. Cultures have a lot of myths about lost civilizations: Atlantis, Hyperborea, Lemuria, etc. After the disastrous collapse of this civilization, some knowledge was held onto. Refugees were also said to have helped some civilizations. In the Life of Pythagoras, a Hyperborean traveler is casually mentioned as visiting the Pythagoreans. If you look at the perennial philosophy of Guenon, it's believed that every major religion is derived from this unified primordial "Tradition." This theory of a forgotten collapse does actually explain some historical anachronisms.

 

I'm sympathetic to all of these theories, but none really satisfy my need for objectivity and real-world applicability.

[Guest]

For mythical creatures I just assume it's a case of mistaken identity. Take animals like the Oarfish for example. It's this giant, deep sea fish with an elongated body. It wouldn't be a stretch to think that people in ancient times who saw this believed it was some type of sea serpent.

Spoiler

Or Manatees which were mistaken for mermaids and Giant Squids for Krakens.

 

When you don't know what you're looking at your mind fills in the blanks. Next thing you know you're claiming to have seen some mythical creature when it was just a really big fish.

[Lyman the Lunatic]

Fairy tales, drunk hallucinations & propaganda, probably.

Like the yakshas (Asian equivalent of the orcs), just some black people from South India, who were enemies of the white invaders on horseback of North India (I know it's AD2023, is it politically inappropriate to utter the name of the white Indians?). There was this funny story from the American internet a few yrs ago. Some Americans started saying their orcs are fantasy equivalent of black people. I was like, "what are you on about? The yakshas are literally a vilification of black people".

My friend who studied Ancient India told me that demons may be inspired by the Persians who vilified the white North Indians. Why? Because the Hindu words for the "gods" are "Devs", and somethingsomething about language barrier + time "deva" becomes "devil/demon". I mean, I think the theory sounds less likely than saying Jesus was a Buddhist monk. But then again, I didn't study Ancient India.