You ever wonder how myths and mythical creatures came into being?

[Guest]

Whenever I see this thread, I think about that scene from the first Lord of the Rings movie, where Saruman was talking to that Uruk-ai about the origins of the Orcs.

[Grey Cloud]

On 6/24/2023 at 7:22 PM, Splendor Solis said:

The most common explanation for the emergence of these sorts of archetypes is evolutionary.

Is it? Where did you hear that?

 

On 6/24/2023 at 7:22 PM, Splendor Solis said:

For example, snakes are dangerous to humans, so over time we developed strong instinctive reactions to them.

Dangerous snakes are not that common in northern Europe - never were. Bears were and are much more dangerous than snakes. Bears were hunted to extinction in western Europe as were lions before them.

Lots of dangerous snakes in Africa, are there lots of mythological stories about them?

One man can kill a snake with a stick or by throwing stones at it or burning it. Killing a bear, a lion or even a boar is extremely difficult without a high velocity rifle.

 

On 6/24/2023 at 7:22 PM, Splendor Solis said:

Things real on a higher level would leak through the subconscious and into human art, dreams, religion, etc.

Evidence?

 

On 6/24/2023 at 7:22 PM, Splendor Solis said:

So you would have, say, a Platonic Form of a dragon and that would trickle its way into the human psyche.

You haven't a clue as to what a Platonic form is.

 

On 6/24/2023 at 7:22 PM, Splendor Solis said:

If we look at UFO experiences and compare it to past things like spirits, fairies, etc, it's very clearly the same phenomena.

Evidence? Have you ever read any books on the subject, e.g. William James' The Varieties of Religious Experience or any of the many, many scholarly papers on the subject.

 

On 6/24/2023 at 7:22 PM, Splendor Solis said:

Myths could also develop as human tribes and organizations developed. If we look at "primitive" tribes, they don't have as strong a concept of individuality as modern humans do. When their shaman put on a badly made mask and pretended to be a god, he is actually seen as being that god. Certain myths could be holdovers from those struggles we went through as our consciousness developed from this primitive collective to our more modern state.

Any evidence for this drivel? Which tribes would these be? Are you familiar with 'symbolism'?

Any evidence for the development of consciousness? You aren't by chance getting this from Julian Jaynes' The Origins of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind by any chance?

 

On 6/24/2023 at 7:22 PM, Splendor Solis said:

The golden age-side tends to be heavily influenced by a disaster around 10,000 BC. (This was popularized by Graham Hancock) They look at the Greek and Vedic talk of a past golden age and see it as something real. Cultures have a lot of myths about lost civilizations: Atlantis, Hyperborea, Lemuria, etc. After the disastrous collapse of this civilization, some knowledge was held onto. Refugees were also said to have helped some civilizations. In the Life of Pythagoras, a Hyperborean traveler is casually mentioned as visiting the Pythagoreans

This comes under the umbrella term of 'catastrophism'. Lots of people 'popularised' it before Hancock, e.g. Ignatius Donelly and Immanuel Velikovsky.

It is not necessarily about an advanced civilisation (singular) and advanced in this context relates to trade networks, government, art, construction and such like.

 

The story of Atlantis originates with Plato (Timaeus and Critias), Hyperborea means 'beyond the north wind' in Greek and was the name given to an undefined area of the far north. If I'm not mistaken Plato uses the word 'logos' rather than 'muthos' to describe the story of Atlantis.

Lemuria was a continent first proposed in 1864 by a zoologist.

In which biography of Pythagoras is this traveller 'casually' mentioned?

 

On 6/24/2023 at 7:22 PM, Splendor Solis said:

If you look at the perennial philosophy of Guenon, it's believed that every major religion is derived from this unified primordial "Tradition."

The term 'perennial philosophy' is associated more with Aldous Huxley due to his book "The Perennial Philosophy". Guenon was a French esotericist who converted to Islam.

 

On 6/24/2023 at 7:22 PM, Splendor Solis said:

I'm sympathetic to all of these theories, but none really satisfy my need for objectivity and real-world applicability.

Objectivity? What does 'real-world applicability' mean?

Edited July 8, 2023 by Grey Cloud

[Grey Cloud]

On 6/24/2023 at 8:56 PM, Crystallia said:

For mythical creatures I just assume it's a case of mistaken identity.

That's largely because you have read little or nothing about the subject.

 

Manatees inhabit the shallow, marshy coastal areas and rivers of the Caribbean Sea, the Gulf of Mexico, the Amazon basin, and West Africa.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manatee

 

Mermaids belong to Legend and Folk-Tales not mythology. They feature in European, including Scandinavian stories and live in the ocean.

 

On 6/24/2023 at 8:56 PM, Crystallia said:

When you don't know what you're looking at your mind fills in the blanks. Next thing you know you're claiming to have seen some mythical creature when it was just a really big fish.

When you don't read up on a subject and get your info from the TV your mind fills with nonsense. Next thing you know you've gone full Dunning-Kruger.

 

How does your 'theory' explain, e.g. the Chimera?

https://mythologysource.com/chimera-greek-monster/

 

I may have already posted this but - The Chimera is a creature associated with Corinth. The Chimera was a composite of lion, snake and goat. Corinth fought a series of wars against three of its neighbours. The symbols of those three neighbours were the lion, the serpent and the goat.

I can't find my source for this but it was a modern scholar.

 

Once more unto the the breach, dear friends . . .

"That, among the ancients, Greeks as well as Barbarians, physiologia was a discourse on Nature that was wrapped in myths, or a theology most often disguised by enigmas and hidden meanings, and pertaining to the Mysteries, and that, for the crowd, what is said is more obscure than what is not said, and that what is not said is even more problematic than what is said: this is obvious when we consider the Orphic poems and the Egyptian and Phrygian discourses. Yet it is especially the secret rites of the initiations, and what is carried out symbolically in religious ceremonies, that reveal the thought of the ancients."
Plutarch

 

Herodotus among others made similar comments.

[Grey Cloud]

On 7/2/2023 at 4:29 PM, Lyman the Lunatic said:

Fairy tales, drunk hallucinations & propaganda, probably.

Probably not. At least not according to the modern scholarship of which you are entirely ignorant.

 

On 7/2/2023 at 4:29 PM, Lyman the Lunatic said:

Like the yakshas (Asian equivalent of the orcs),

"yaksha, also spelled yaksa, Sanskrit masculine singular yakṣa, Sanskrit feminine singular yakṣī or yakṣinī, in the mythology of India, a class of generally benevolent but sometimes mischievous, capricious, sexually rapacious, or even murderous nature spirits who are the custodians of treasures that are hidden in the earth and in the roots of trees. They are powerful magicians and shape-shifters. Principal among the yakshas is Kubera, who rules in the mythical Himalayan kingdom called Alaka."

https://www.britannica.com/topic/yaksha

So we are off to a good start.

 

On 7/2/2023 at 4:29 PM, Lyman the Lunatic said:

just some black people from South India, who were enemies of the white invaders on horseback of North India (I know it's AD2023, is it politically inappropriate to utter the name of the white Indians?)

The Himalaya is in the south? I think you have your map upside down.

Black people?

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=yaksha&hps=1&start=1&atb=v185-1&iax=images&ia=images

 

The theory you are referring to here is the long-discredited Aryan invasion theory.

The horse is not indigenous to the Indian subcontinent and it was more chariot riding than horseback.

 

Try doing some reading on these people:

The Shintashta Culture.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sintashta_culture

 

On 7/2/2023 at 4:29 PM, Lyman the Lunatic said:

My friend who studied Ancient India told me that demons may be inspired by the Persians who vilified the white North Indians. Why? Because the Hindu words for the "gods" are "Devs", and somethingsomething about language barrier + time "deva" becomes "devil/demon". I mean, I think the theory sounds less likely than saying Jesus was a Buddhist monk. But then again, I didn't study Ancient India.

Your friend hasn't 'studied' anything.

The word demon comes from the Greek 'daimon' which, similar to yakshas, are not necessarily evil or even dangerous. Socrates frequently spoke of his.

https://www.etymonline.com/word/demon

 

Deva

https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=deva

 

In India they have Devas and Asuras. In (Zoroastrian) Iran they have Ahuras and Daevas.

 

There were Buddhists in the Middle East during Roman times. There had been Indians in the region since long before that. The Greeks had known about Buddhism since the time of Alexander.

There is next to no non-biblical evidence that Jesus even existed.

 

What did you study?

Edited July 8, 2023 by Grey Cloud

[Lyman the Lunatic]

5 hours ago, Grey Cloud said:

Probably not. At least not according to the modern scholarship of which you are entirely ignorant.

 

"yaksha, also spelled yaksa, Sanskrit masculine singular yakṣa, Sanskrit feminine singular yakṣī or yakṣinī, in the mythology of India, a class of generally benevolent but sometimes mischievous, capricious, sexually rapacious, or even murderous nature spirits who are the custodians of treasures that are hidden in the earth and in the roots of trees. They are powerful magicians and shape-shifters. Principal among the yakshas is Kubera, who rules in the mythical Himalayan kingdom called Alaka."

https://www.britannica.com/topic/yaksha

So we are off to a good start.

 

The Himalaya is in the south? I think you have your map upside down.

Black people?

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=yaksha&hps=1&start=1&atb=v185-1&iax=images&ia=images

 

The theory you are referring to here is the long-discredited Aryan invasion theory.

The horse is not indigenous to the Indian subcontinent and it was more chariot riding than horseback.

 

Try doing some reading on these people:

The Shintashta Culture.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sintashta_culture

 

Your friend hasn't 'studied' anything.

The word demon comes from the Greek 'daimon' which, similar to yakshas, are not necessarily evil or even dangerous. Socrates frequently spoke of his.

https://www.etymonline.com/word/demon

 

Deva

https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=deva

 

In India they have Devas and Asuras. In (Zoroastrian) Iran they have Ahuras and Daevas.

 

There were Buddhists in the Middle East during Roman times. There had been Indians in the region since long before that. The Greeks had known about Buddhism since the time of Alexander.

There is next to no non-biblical evidence that Jesus even existed.

 

What did you study?

I largely base my knowledge on on my country's tradition on these stories. Albeit, a very common Joe level of it.

My country was influenced by the ancient Indians, and we put our own spin on their stories. If you ask me how different our version from the original, I'd say I don't know, but I do know that some changes can be so significant it's hilarious. Like you, I have talked to some Indians on the internet, they think it's funny that my country depicts Hanuman as a bestial womanizer (I guess you could call him a furry) than a chaste & virtuous holy warrior. And no, I don't know what caused caused the changes, or why they were changed. 

Sure, you can say I don't understand "original" yakshas, but that's just how we describe them. And why not, they are the villains of so many stories. As for the direction of their kingdom, I reference the Ramayana, where they are the main antagonist & their kingdom is in Lanka, I'm sure you know where Lanka is. Since you already showed your smug sense of superiority for knowing where the Himalayas are on the map, Lanka should be much easier to find. Here's also another difference in our version & Indian. We don't call Kubera by that name. If anything, he is seen as a gatekeeper of the underworld. Do I find it confusing that he is also somehow a king of the yakshas? To be honest, yes. I just guessed he has 2 jobs. But if you ask me what's the origin of the yashas, I'd probably say they were the drunken angels who were cast out by Indra. Feel free to tell me the true & original version of that story, if you want. But then, I don't know for sure if this happens before or after the churning of the ocean, probably before.

And yes, I think the whole demon came from India is stupid, I didn't care enough to see if the claims are true because I just don't think it's true to begin with. I am very well aware that the Greeks used to hung out in India & Eurasian trade has been around far longer than what many average people believes. But don't worry, I know a lot less about the Indian Greek kingdoms than the yakshas because they were further away.

Anyways, I always find it interesting to see how different our interpretations were from the "original" source.

Edited July 8, 2023 by Lyman the Lunatic

[Grey Cloud]

20 minutes ago, Lyman the Lunatic said:

Like you, I have talked to some Indians on the internet,

To the best of my knowledge I have never talked to an Indian on the net, certainly not about any of these subjects. I read many books from many countries including India.

 

27 minutes ago, Lyman the Lunatic said:

I reference the Ramayana, where they are the main antagonist & their kingdom is in Lanka

Are they? The heart of the story does take place in Lanka but it has nothing to do with yakshas. The main villain is a rakshasa.

 

32 minutes ago, Lyman the Lunatic said:

But if you ask me what's the origin of the yashas

I wont. Angel is from a Greek word meaning messenger/one that announces.

 

Plucking statements and ideas out of thin air is not how scholarship or learning works.

35 minutes ago, Lyman the Lunatic said:

I always find it interesting to see how different our interpretations were from the "original" source.

But I at least read the original source rather than get information from a friend who has 'studied' ancient India.

[Splendor Solis]

18 hours ago, Grey Cloud said:

Is it? Where did you hear that?

It's the answer that I've seen the most when the issue is brought up. It's also the most academically acceptable because it's secular and doesn't challenge orthodox history.

18 hours ago, Grey Cloud said:

Dangerous snakes are not that common in northern Europe - never were. Bears were and are much more dangerous than snakes. Bears were hunted to extinction in western Europe as were lions before them.

Lots of dangerous snakes in Africa, are there lots of mythological stories about them?

One man can kill a snake with a stick or by throwing stones at it or burning it. Killing a bear, a lion or even a boar is extremely difficult without a high velocity rifle.

That's cool.

18 hours ago, Grey Cloud said:

Evidence?

I was describing the theory, not promoting it. You seem like someone who knows enough about self-hypnosis, Jung, and other early 20th century ideas to come to your own conclusions on the topic.

18 hours ago, Grey Cloud said:

You haven't a clue as to what a Platonic form is.

Okay.

18 hours ago, Grey Cloud said:

Any evidence for this drivel? Which tribes would these be? Are you familiar with 'symbolism'?

Any evidence for the development of consciousness? You aren't by chance getting this from Julian Jaynes' The Origins of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind by any chance?

Some of Jung's more anthropological works are primarily where this idea is coming from. Idk enough about early-humans to provide you with evidence for or against. Also I only got like 40 pages into Jaynes. Is it worth finishing?

18 hours ago, Grey Cloud said:

Evidence? Have you ever read any books on the subject, e.g. William James' The Varieties of Religious Experience or any of the many, many scholarly papers on the subject.

If you listen to anecdotes about these experiences, they're incredibly similar. Especially the fact they tend to happen in hypnagogic states.

18 hours ago, Grey Cloud said:

This comes under the umbrella term of 'catastrophism'. Lots of people 'popularised' it before Hancock, e.g. Ignatius Donelly and Immanuel Velikovsky.

It is not necessarily about an advanced civilisation (singular) and advanced in this context relates to trade networks, government, art, construction and such like.

 

The story of Atlantis originates with Plato (Timaeus and Critias), Hyperborea means 'beyond the north wind' in Greek and was the name given to an undefined area of the far north. If I'm not mistaken Plato uses the word 'logos' rather than 'muthos' to describe the story of Atlantis.

Lemuria was a continent first proposed in 1864 by a zoologist.

It's nice to talk to someone who knows about this stuff.

18 hours ago, Grey Cloud said:

In which biography of Pythagoras is this traveller 'casually' mentioned?

I think Iamblichus.

18 hours ago, Grey Cloud said:

The term 'perennial philosophy' is associated more with Aldous Huxley due to his book "The Perennial Philosophy". Guenon was a French esotericist who converted to Islam.

I was using the term to describe a broader idea of a primordial truth that's been preserved throughout all of humanity.

18 hours ago, Grey Cloud said:

Objectivity? What does 'real-world applicability' mean?

Utility. I like things that are useful. I'm fairly indifferent to most debates on metaphysics or religion because they're hardly more productive than celebrity gossip (not to marginalize the intellectual rigor that has gone into these subjects).

[Grey Cloud]

5 hours ago, Splendor Solis said:

I only got like 40 pages into Jaynes. Is it worth finishing?

Not in my opinion. I read it around the time it came out (70s?). It got panned by the brain experts and the historians and largely disappeared. In recent years it seems to have had a bit of a renaissance in some corners of the sensationalistic Internet.

 

5 hours ago, Splendor Solis said:

It's the answer that I've seen the most when the issue is brought up.

Brought up where?

 

5 hours ago, Splendor Solis said:

It's also the most academically acceptable because it's secular and doesn't challenge orthodox history.

And you think that its how knowledge works? There is an entire branch of the humanities studying mythology without recourse to evolution. Scholars do not shy away from religion in the study of myths. The religions involved are far removed from the puerile religion versus science debate where both sides equate religion with Christianity while not knowing much about even that religion.

I gave an example above of a scholarly explanation of the chimera and elsewhere in this thread I gave an example of the astronomical information embedded in Odyssey. Two examples which do not require any evolutionary psychology.

 

As for all the Jungian/Freudian nonsense written about myths, well while it is difficult to date myths many offer a time period. Theseus was a historical king of Athens so stories involving him cannot predate him (or Athenian/Minoan relations); stories of a chariot-riding class in India cannot predate the invention and development of the chariot by the Sintashta culture out on the Eurasian steppe. Two more examples which do not require any evolutionary psychology.

 

Theories about myths have come and gone and they generally fail for the same reason: the claim that all myths are this or all myths are that, e.g. solar myths, rituals, being scared of wild animals.

Myth (muthos) means story or tale. The story is used, allegorically, to convey information. The information conveyed can be about virtually anything.

Edited July 9, 2023 by Grey Cloud

[Lyman the Lunatic]

On 7/9/2023 at 1:18 AM, Grey Cloud said:

 

Are they? The heart of the story does take place in Lanka but it has nothing to do with yakshas. The main villain is a rakshasa.

 

I wont. Angel is from a Greek word meaning messenger/one that announces.

 

Plucking statements and ideas out of thin air is not how scholarship or learning works.

But I at least read the original source rather than get information from a friend who has 'studied' ancient India.

 We just call them yakshas. Rakshasa is anobscure term, even when used, it's interchangeable. So to us, yaksha are also known as rakshasa & asura. I'm sure this info could give you a heart attack.

And I used the word "angel" because that's the word I know you'll understand. The only lore about yakshas here, are that they were the banished angels.

I don't know what you'd mean by thin air, this is just how we interpret the lore here. I find it funny when people on the internet are upset that some other traditions got things wrong. Maybe you personally don't celebrate Christmas, but I don't think you can stop the Christians in general from celebrating it, can you? Same thing. To me, it doesn't matter if you want to believe the Indian lore, because that's just the Indian lore, and my country made our own interpretations from it.

Since this site is also related to the Elder Scrolls. Does it matter if Talos is an Imperial, or a Nord, or even a Breton (or the divines forbid, an undead necromancer?). To me, this differences are fun, maybe you take it too seriously, but that's why I like the English side of the internet, so much vindication on anything & everything. But hey, this is still very much relevant to the topic, how a difference in language, culture & time can create another interpretation of a mythical being.

[Grey Cloud]

47 minutes ago, Lyman the Lunatic said:

To me, it doesn't matter if you want to believe the Indian lore, because that's just the Indian lore, and my country made our own interpretations from it.

To me it does matter because India is where the stories of these entities originated.

 

Where are you from? Iran?

[Lyman the Lunatic]

On 7/10/2023 at 8:10 PM, Grey Cloud said:

To me it does matter because India is where the stories of these entities originated.

 

Where are you from? Iran?

 Nope, I'm not from Iran. Remember when I stated "I know a lot less about the Indian Greek kingdoms than the yakshas because they were further away". If my memory serves, we used to call white people "Yona", until around the middle ages when we started to call them "French", because that's what the Persians started to call them (and based on wikipedia, they call white people "French" because that's what the Arabs call the crusaders). Fast forward to the recent yrs. I find it hilarious when some white Americans foam their mouths when I call them "French". They are saying it's our equivalent of the American slang for Negro.

I'm not sure if I can exactly stated my location due to the recent yrs in this country, where our govt actually went full on 1984 & anything we say on the internet can get you jailed. But for a quick history lesson, India had many spawned many empires, 1 of which was the Chola. My country just used to be a part of their influence, probably that's when we were introduced to their mythology.

[RedHeadAngel]

If I had to guess, all that stuff involving mythical creatures and whatnot was made up by people who had nothing better to do. It was made during a time when people thought the sun was magic or volcanos erupting was some deity's wrath. Lack of knowledge of the world around them and a lot of imagination is how mythical beings like Hades and Zeus were made.

[Grey Cloud]

13 minutes ago, RedHeadAngel said:

If I had to guess

You don't have to guess, reading is an option. There is a vast body of writing on this subject dating back over two thousand years.

Pro tip 1: Not all myths involve gods.

Pro tip 2: Some myths can be roughly dated and they are not from a time "when people thought the sun was magic or volcanos erupting was some deity's wrath". When was that BTW?

[RedHeadAngel]

1 hour ago, Grey Cloud said:

You don't have to guess, reading is an option. There is a vast body of writing on this subject dating back over two thousand years.

Pro tip 1: Not all myths involve gods.

Pro tip 2: Some myths can be roughly dated and they are not from a time "when people thought the sun was magic or volcanos erupting was some deity's wrath". When was that BTW?

The oldest recorded myths are dated around 18th century BCE, the same time people thought the sun was magic or whatever.

Pro tip: I don't really care what myths involve. It's all stuff made up by people who lacked knowledge of how nature works. Don't get me wrong. They're fascinating. But it's still just stories made by people who didn't understand the world around them.

[Grey Cloud]

54 minutes ago, RedHeadAngel said:

The oldest recorded myths are dated around 18th century BCE, the same time people thought the sun was magic or whatever.

Pro tip: I don't really care what myths involve. It's all stuff made up by people who lacked knowledge of how nature works. Don't get me wrong. They're fascinating. But it's still just stories made by people who didn't understand the world around them.

What evidence do you have to support any of the above?

Akkadian and Egyptian deities pre-date the C18th by a long chalk.

Theseus is a historically attested person (king of Athens).

People like you make me laugh. You have never studied the subject yet you somehow feel qualified to dismiss the work of thousands of modern scholars who do study the subject. I doubt you have even bothered to read any of the posts in this thread.

[RedHeadAngel]

1 hour ago, Grey Cloud said:

What evidence do you have to support any of the above?

Akkadian and Egyptian deities pre-date the C18th by a long chalk.

Theseus is a historically attested person (king of Athens).

People like you make me laugh. You have never studied the subject yet you somehow feel qualified to dismiss the work of thousands of modern scholars who do study the subject. I doubt you have even bothered to read any of the posts in this thread.

Ah. I see. You’re just trying to start an argument. Nice try, pal, but you picked the wrong person. If you want to argue with someone, then try it on someone else. Or just fix your attitude. That would be the better option. If you continue trying to cause me drama, I’ll report you. 👍

Have a nice day. 😊 Or don’t. I don't really care.

[Count Chocula]

I imagine a lot of mythical creatures were based on the vague descriptions heard and repeated by people who had never seen the thing. It's easy to imagine a third-hand description of an elephant giving rise to, say, a giant hairless bear with a snake for a tongue and fangs the size a man's body.

[Grey Cloud]

1 hour ago, chocula said:

I imagine a lot of mythical creatures were based on the vague descriptions heard and repeated by people who had never seen the thing.

Quite possibly but a lot of them but symbolism is also very common.

[RedHeadAngel]

One of my favorite ancient myths would have to be the tale of how Thor’s hammer was made.

If you're interested in mythology, I would recommend looking it up.

[Grey Cloud]

New study reveals the Milky Way’s hidden role in ancient Egyptian mythology

https://arkeonews.net/new-study-reveals-the-milky-ways-hidden-role-in-ancient-egyptian-mythology/

[DrunkenCow]

That's nice and all, but a "smart" people that watched the night sky wouldn't have to add five days to their calendar.  

[Grey Cloud]

4 hours ago, DrunkenCow said:

That's nice and all, but a "smart" people that watched the night sky wouldn't have to add five days to their calendar.  

How would you know what "smart" people would do?

[DrunkenCow]

Well, a smart person wouldn't think a feature in Scientific American was anything to brag about.  A smart person would also recognize the progressive slippage of the calendar in an agrarian society where planting crops needed an accurate calendar not something that lost a month every six years.

 

Really, unless you are willing to defend Velikovsky's hilarious cataclysmic theories, you should stop sniping.

[Grey Cloud]

6 hours ago, DrunkenCow said:

Well, a smart person wouldn't think a feature in Scientific American was anything to brag about.  A smart person would also recognize the progressive slippage of the calendar in an agrarian society where planting crops needed an accurate calendar not something that lost a month every six years.

 

Really, unless you are willing to defend Velikovsky's hilarious cataclysmic theories, you should stop sniping.

The article originated in the Journal of Astronomical History.

https://www.sciengine.com/JAHH/doi/10.3724/SP.J.1440-2807.2024.01.02

 

The Egyptians managed to do three crops per year. You don't need a calendar to plot astronomical movement and two sticks can tell you when it is time to sow. Do you realise that there is a lot of astronomical info embedded in ancient texts?

 

Where did Velikovsky come into this? I have read Velikovsky and checked his sources (have you?) and to me he is either an idiot or a charlatan.

 

I do however subscribe to Catastrophism as do many scientists.

https://www.boulder.swri.edu/clark/cohcat.pdf

https://www.research.ed.ac.uk/en/publications/catastrophism-through-the-ages-and-a-cosmic-catastrophe-at-the-or

 

 

Edited December 1, 2024 by Grey Cloud