Mod Organizer

[bob11]

 

 

 

Attention all Mod Organizer users!

 

Is there anyone who has successfully integrated NifSkope with MO?

 

For the life of me, I cannot get it to work under MO.

That is one tool I use a LOT

 

 

Eh... Why would you need to use Nifskope from within MO?  All the .nif are in their mod directories, just open whatever mod you want in explorer and double-click the .nif.  That's what I do when I'm messing with skeleton scales.

 

The only programs you have to use through MO are those that try to look inside Skyrim's data folder.  In MO's case, that folder is empty, since MO has its own virtual folder.  To enable these programs to see the virtual data folder, you run them through MO.  Not sure why Nifscope would need to run through there.  It doesn't need to see the data folder to work  correctly.

 

The reason???

 

All the textures are in the virtual folders

All the meshes are in the virtual folders

 

If you use the paths for MO so you can see the textures while you are working in NifSkope, you either error out, or "purple" in-game.

 

 

And AwfulArchdemon - it's a MODDING tool, not a defragger.

Imagine, people wanting to actually use modding tools, after a mod manager rearranges the files . . .

What was I thinking?

 

 

Still not sure what the problem is.  I mean, it runs from within MO if you want, I just ran it.  Nifskope sees the real folder structure instead of the virtual one.  Why can't you work with mod folders instead of skyrim's data folder?  You could ask an experienced modder though.  I only used Nifskope to edit skeletons, these didn't need anything and the edits were working, so maybe your case is different.

[judge0]

Quote:

Still not sure what the problem is.  I mean, it runs from within MO if you want, I just ran it.  Nifskope sees the real folder structure instead of the virtual one.  Why can't you work with mod folders instead of skyrim's data folder?  You could ask an experienced modder though.  I only used Nifskope to edit skeletons, these didn't need anything and the edits were working, so maybe your case is different.

 

Yes, it runs, it just doesn't run properly.

 

When you work with the meshes in NifSkope you don't get to see the textures anymore, they aren't in The Skyrim/Data folder anymore.

 

If you change the paths for the textures in NifSkope, then the meshes don't work in-game (no textures). Kind of a Catch-22 scenario.

 

As for asking an experienced modder, that's why I posted for help in the first place.

Thanks.

[Hitom]

 

Got everything running very smooth with this program now, fnis, fitness blender, wrye bash, however! one tool I couldn't figure out how to get to work with MO that is Skyrim Performance Monitor. Any tips would be great:)

 

Skyrim Performance Monitor, on the contrary of everything else, you need to run Mod Organizer through that program, not that program through MO. So you run Skyrim Performance Monitor > MO > Skyrim.

 

 

Thanks a bunch! <3

[bob11]

Quote:

Still not sure what the problem is.  I mean, it runs from within MO if you want, I just ran it.  Nifskope sees the real folder structure instead of the virtual one.  Why can't you work with mod folders instead of skyrim's data folder?  You could ask an experienced modder though.  I only used Nifskope to edit skeletons, these didn't need anything and the edits were working, so maybe your case is different.

 

Yes, it runs, it just doesn't run properly.

 

When you work with the meshes in NifSkope you don't get to see the textures anymore, they aren't in The Skyrim/Data folder anymore.

 

If you change the paths for the textures in NifSkope, then the meshes don't work in-game (no textures). Kind of a Catch-22 scenario.

 

As for asking an experienced modder, that's why I posted for help in the first place.

Thanks.

 

You can ask Tannin on MO's nexus page.  He's the author of this, so if it's at all possible, he could tell you.

[bob11]

Has anyone tried the recent MO update?  Is it stable enough? xP

[RitualClarity]

I am using 1.0.11 and it seems stable enough. Haven't used anything further along yet.

[AwfulArchdemon]

Just got the new version. Unfortunately, I'm just about to go to school till Thursday, so I won't be able to test it till then. This sucks. Can't promise I'll be able to answer any questions regarding the new version right away. I need to transfer my mods to the new one and test 1st.

 

I've read about an issue with configure option. Check out Tannin's thread on Nexus to see what's up.

 

I'll jump on this as soon as I get back Thursday afternoon.

[Fredas]

Okay, getting pretty close to being done with hunting up textures and other mods, so I'm fixing to do all the little optimizations that should make the gaming experience smoother.  One of those involves BSAs.

 

Everyone seems to agree that extracting the texture BSAs is a good idea.  I guess I can sum up my confusion here with a series of questions:

 

1: So I extract the BSAs to the data folder where they reside.  And I delete the now needless BSAs.  Is Skyrim going to be okay with this, or will I need to somehow let the game know that it is no longer looking for BSAs and should instead be hunting up loose files?

2: Is Steam going to be okay with having several of its files now "missing"?

3: I gather that BSAs technically reside at the "top" of the load order (ie, they are overwritten by everything), and that loose files very definitely do not.  What steps would be advisable, with regard to Mod Organizer, to ensure that the no-longer-BSA-compressed loose files maintain their BSA-like load order?  (Is there a guide for all of this?)

 

Now I have a further item of confusion. ;p  There is some difference of opinion, but folks generally seem to feel that it is not advisable to convert the rest of the BSAs (meshes, voices, etc.) into loose files.

 

4: Really?  Seems to me that any compression is going to slow things down.  Assuming file space is not an issue, why not?  Besides, this would circumvent the apparent bug where DDSopt / BSAopt "optimize" BSAs by using the maximum compression possible, which apparently tends to freak Skyrim out (and, one imagines, maximizes the load times).

 

Thanks.

 

[RitualClarity]

Do not touch the original game files. Don't do it. Don't extract BSA's, Clean ESM's etc. The entire idea of MO is to keep these files intact and untouched. There are patches for the ESMs from the game to fix the screwups that Besthesda made when creating this game. Cleaning ESMs should stay with those individuals that mod and understand deeply how to clean and mod. If you have little experienced in this .. avoid cleaning ESM's.

 

I don't see any reason to extract the BSA's. In fact I see more reasons to keep them intact where ever possible. Sure if there is a particular instance with a mod that requires some extraction and work that is fine. I even go so far as create BSA's out of mods that I use and find it helps with stability. Especially true for FNV and FO3. Not as evident in Skyrim because it is a more stable game to begin with (generally)

 

Finally even Tannin states in the manager not to extract the files if you are unsure. Happens when you load a mod with BSA's. If you need to extract a file for access later just click on Archives, Data, the BSA that you want and right click and select extract. done.

 

Oh and when I create BSA's I don't compress them. I leave them uncompressed and haven't had any problems. I have tried them with compression and haven't found any major problems either. It is just a preference. I am sure if many of them are being used it could cause some slow downs with slower or weaker computers or when you start running into memory limits.

 

 

 

[Fredas]

Do not touch the original game files. Don't do it. Don't extract BSA's

 

With all due respect since you obviously are on firmer ground with this stuff and took the time to respond, I'm going to hold out for second opinions on this.  Your concern seems to stem from my lack of understanding.  Fair enough.  Just keep in mind that it doesn't mean I'm stupid and won't eventually know what I'm doing. ;p  Even the "STEP" guides recommend extracting vanilla textures and passing most of the rest through BSAopt.

 

Oh and when I create BSA's I don't compress them. I leave them uncompressed and haven't had any problems.

 

Okay, this sounds good.  Leaving BSAs in a no-compression state.  Achieves the same thing as loose files (practically - probably an inconsequential performance hit for having everything in one file rather than loose) and avoids the load-order concerns of rendering files loose.  I'll have to look into what app to use to perform this conversion.

 

Meanwhile, my original questions stand.  Particularly concerns over how Skyrim will know to stop looking for BSAs with specific file names and search instead for the loose files.

 

[RitualClarity]

 

Do not touch the original game files. Don't do it. Don't extract BSA's

 

Even the "STEP" guides recommend extracting vanilla textures and passing most of the rest through BSAopt.

I am in a similar situation as you and had questions just like you have. I have just played around with BSA quite a bit learning and practicing. When someone in the community such as STEP is giving you guides and recommendations and you fully understand the results and reasons by all means go for it.

 

Your concern seems to stem from my lack of understanding.  Fair enough.  Just keep in mind that it doesn't mean I'm stupid and won't eventually know what I'm doing.

I am counting on the fact that you will understand and learn constantly. The first step was asking these questions and making sure that you are confident on what you will do and more importantly .. why you are doing it. I have seen instructions given and followed without any regard to understanding the reasons and rational behind the instructions. Your question was smart, insightful and shows an interested curious mind willing to put forth the effort to understand the processes. 

 

I have checked STEP and understand now why they are advising it. There were issues with asset or resource prioritization. Many times depending on how the mod was packaged the resources wouldn't be available right a way as the game wouldn't load it properly. Loose files always trump all the other files packed in BSA's. That way is the safest way to assure that the textures meshes etc are accessed when the game starts.

 

However... also from the STEP project under the MO Manager

 

BSA Priorities

BSA files are archives that contain assets like textures, meshes, sounds, scripts, ... All vanilla data resides in BSAs and by default, the Skyrim Creation Kit packages assets for mods in BSAs. Traditionally you can not control priority between BSAs and "loose" files (that is: assets that came as individual files), BSAs are always overridden. Therefore, if you wanted to use files from a BSA over files from a mod that came as "loose" files, you'd have to figure out and delete the correct files manually.

 

With MO, assuming all archives are "checked", the BSAs are treated exactly as if they were loose files. That means the priority depends solely on the mod order (that's the left pane in MO!) and NOT on the esp order. This is imho a neat feature because it lets you ignore BSA ordering completely. To understand BSA ordering under MO all you have to do is FORGET that they are supposed to be special. You sort your mods on the left pane so you get the assets you want, you sort the right pane according to boss for maximum compatibility. End of story, it doesn't matter how they are packaged.

This is the reason I mentioned not to touch the original game files. In MO they are treated like loose files. They aren't any different or special. I really should have gotten that quote and posted it in my original post. Sorry I short changed you there. I saw that and knowing that the OP  is busy until Thursday wanted to give a quick help. Hope I didn't frustrate you. I was just very busy at that time and seeing that others haven't posted I decided to help anyway.. what help I gave.. not so much..

 

 

 

Meanwhile, my original questions stand.  Particularly concerns over how Skyrim will know to stop looking for BSAs with specific file names and search instead for the loose files.

The game engine don't "stop' it checked the Main BSA > registered BSA's > then loose files. After it checked all the files the last ones found is the last ones that are used. For example .. Sword1 is in the main vanilla BSA. (not a real asset just an example) , someone re-textured the file Sword1 and have it in a registered BSA and finally another re-texture that is loose. The game looks through the first two BSA and continues thorough the Data folder to the end of the files. When it finds the Sword1 in the "loose files" it uses it. Basically from my understanding it looks at the name and path of the assets (textures in this example) it checked the entire folder and takes the last file (the loose file) and use it instead of the registered BSA files or even the original file.

 

By all means. You are learning and trying to understand and grow. I see that, so extract them if you want. Follow the STEPs instructions and process all the files including the vanilla files as well according to their instructions while using MO. Let us know if it improves, degrades, or has any other problems. Who knows it might just help anyway. It can't hurt. MO keeps the files loaded inside it separate from the main game anyway so worst case situation you delete the affected files and "verify cache" through Steam and you would be back 100%.

 

There I hope this post makes up for my half post before...

[Fredas]

When someone in the community such as STEP is giving you guides and recommendations and you fully understand the results and reasons by all means go for it.

 

Well, I confirmed one suspicion, at least.  Mod Organizer's virtualization method does not extend to the Creation Kit, which readily chokes when it fails to find its traditional BSAs / files in the data folder.

 

This is the reason I mentioned not to touch the original game files. In MO they are treated like loose files. 

 

Understood.  The reason I was interested in having them legitimately loose was because of the potential for reducing load times.  Of course this doesn't just mean during a fast travel or when starting the game but every time the game has to load a new texture.  Unless the game has a bug which causes it to load non-compressed files more slowly than BSA-compressed files, the overall experience should be improved.

 

I went through the not inconsiderable effort of checking much of what the STEP-coordinated DDSopt process was trying to do, vs. what it starts with.  I found a handful of anomalies:

 

1: Normal maps invariably gain a subtle sharpening / brightness.  Too subtle to really make a fuss over.

2: One of the main processes of the provided batch files is the elimination of redundant textures.  But this was done without particular concern over whether the non-deleted textures were truly identical.  As it happens, in the following cases, the textures which were deleted were in fact the superior specimens:

 

clothes blacksmith blacksmithfemalebody* move up one dir (to f) 3 files

clothes blacksmith blacksmithmalebody* move up one dir (to m) 3 files

clothes farmclothes02 farmclothesvariant* move up one dir (to variant) 2 files

clutter deadanimals deadhare01.dds (better; non-sharpened version)

 

3: The batch files do not take into account cases where HRDLC textures will clearly overwrite vanilla textures, as the goal of the batch files is to produce .7z files from BSA originals.  This leaves a lot of room for improved efficiency.

 

4: Contrary to my expectations, I did not find any indisputable evidence of quality loss.  But I can't be too surprised since the differences in filesize are rare and minimal.

[cowboys12]

How do i uninstall mod organizer i need to remove it bc i messed up and its causing my game to crash.

[bob11]

How do i uninstall mod organizer i need to remove it bc i messed up and its causing my game to crash.

 

Eh... You just run your game from the normal launcher?  That's the good thing about having MO in the first place.  Pretty sure it's not MO's fault that the game is crashing, but yeah, just using the game's own launcher is enough.

[RitualClarity]

Fredas

@Fredas.

 

Exactly. These are issues that you start to have. Each game engine has quirks that can throw you for a loop when you expect something that makes logical sense dosn't work. This is where you have to experiment and see what and how you want to run your game.

 

 

Normal maps invariably gain a subtle sharpening / brightness.  Too subtle to really make a fuss over.

Never would have thought about that one happening. Strange.

 

One of the main processes of the provided batch files is the elimination of redundant textures.  But this was done without particular concern over whether the non-deleted textures were truly identical.  As it happens, in the following cases, the textures which were deleted were in fact the superior specimens

Ok, might be able to help there. Now that you have extracted the files and have all the loose files that you need to have, well loose. Go back and separate or break apart the BSA's manually and save each of them separately in folders named properly of course. Now when you find some have been overwritten (same path and folder structure) go into the folders created and manually replace those textures with the ones that you desire. This goes for the HD or any other texture replaces that you desire. Tree, rocks etc. If you have any HD replace them now into the same folders that have been created during the original process. This will cause these files to be overwritten with the correct and desired files. In the end when you are satisfied. zip them up to a safe location in-case you need to reload, rework, or find other "better" files to use. 

 

Whoo.. that was alot of work..   The rainbow in the end is you have a custom folder with all the assets that you desire just the way you want them and can change them out anytime you want. Find some textures or meshes you like.. test them and then change them in the folders you created.

 

After you finish with that it will be time to move to creating your own texture (or re-textures) and meshes (or mesh adjustments) soon you will be making full blown mods...

[Fredas]

 

Normal maps invariably gain a subtle sharpening / brightness.  Too subtle to really make a fuss over.

Never would have thought about that one happening. Strange.

 

Hazarding a guess, the textures' colorspace is being changed from one lossless type to a subtly different but equally lossless type.  In theory, this would be a destructive process, but even close inspection didn't really reveal anything I could label as reduced quality, so I no longer care. ;p

 

(Oh yes, there was one other flaw with the STEP DDSopt process.  The batch file looks for particular texture files as part of its verification process.  The batch file may be out of date, however, as one of the files it looks for apparently no longer exists, producing an erroneous message.  In fact, the organization of the DDSopt tutorial as a whole is in some disarray, as though parts were updated out of sync with other parts, which can be a bit confusing.)

 

As it happens, in the following cases, the textures which were deleted were in fact the superior specimens

Ok, might be able to help there. Now that you have extracted the files and have all the loose files that you need to have, well loose. Go back and separate or break apart the BSA's manually and save each of them separately in folders named properly of course. Now when you find some have been overwritten (same path and folder structure) go into the folders created and manually replace those textures with the ones that you desire. This goes for the HD or any other texture replaces that you desire. 

 

Oh, certainly.  On my end, all the vanilla textures now exist as a single "mod" in MO.  I am doing the same thing with third-party texture mods; the bits I've kept from each all form a single mod, except for the ones I'm not 100% sure about how they'll look in-game.  The point of my observation was to underscore the fact that the STEP DDSopt process (and apparently Skyrim itself) both dispense with what turns out to be superior versions of textures with duplicate filenames, and that if one wishes to take advantage of the higher quality in these cases, they'll have to make the modifications themselves.

 

Now, that all said, it does seem to me that loading the likes of CE causes a considerable pause which I did not experience previously.  Need experimentation to determine whether or not this is due to how MO handles its files (ie, whether or not it's because there are now tens of thousands of texture files rather than a handful of archives).

 

After you finish with that it will be time to move to creating your own texture (or re-textures) and meshes (or mesh adjustments) soon you will be making full blown mods... 

 

I actually am in the process of trying to make a couple of mods.  Both would be painfully simple for anyone experienced, but for myself, after a couple of days of trying to get a handle on it, I'm still pretty much lost.  One is a blushing mod.  Most of my frustration stems from the apparent fact that CE doesn't have any way of letting one review the specific contents of a specific mod (as opposed to the mod + all of its dependencies).  Closest I can come is to search for certain text.

[RitualClarity]

 

Now, that all said, it does seem to me that loading the likes of CE causes a considerable pause which I did not experience previously.  Need experimentation to determine whether or not this is due to how MO handles its files (ie, whether or not it's because there are now tens of thousands of texture files rather than a handful of archives).

Archive files created are a benefit to the engine as they typically run better and faster. Some reason the game seems more snappy with them. I don't have the web pages where I found that to be true for FNV and I believe even for Skyrim. This can cause a delay and it is a trade off.

http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1354395-update-bsas-and-you/

This should answer some questions you have.

 

We are rapidly getting off topic and I don't think I can go farther on this topic since it is going farther and farther away from MO. If you are still interested try posting a topic on BSA vs Loose files (skyrim) and many others will post their thoughts and processes as well (mo users and non mo users alike). This should give you much more varity of info that you can then go and test and determine yourself which is better for you.. Good luck and cheers.

 

[bob11]

BTW, Nexus broke the downloads again.  If you want to download mods through MO, go to setting and change the NMM reported version to 0.47.0

[Rabblerouser]

I keep getting this error when trying to download from the Nexus using the NMM buttons.

 

 

 

Is MO a program that's safe to reinstall without messing up mods, orders, etc?

[gvman3670]

I keep getting this error when trying to download from the Nexus using the NMM buttons.

 

monexuserror.PNG

 

 

Is MO a program that's safe to reinstall without messing up mods, orders, etc?

The post above yours, bud. It tells you about the problem and how to fix it.

 

I never direct download through MO anyway. I always manual download then put them into MO, but I always did that with NMM as well.

[remois]

 

I keep getting this error when trying to download from the Nexus using the NMM buttons.

 

monexuserror.PNG

 

 

Is MO a program that's safe to reinstall without messing up mods, orders, etc?

The post above yours, bud. It tells you about the problem and how to fix it.

 

I never direct download through MO anyway. I always manual download then put them into MO, but I always did that with NMM as well.

 

It's written on the support thread on the nexus:

Go to the settings menu => workaround and change the NMM version to 0.47.1

 

I don't know exact problem, but it seems there was a forced update on NMM side and they wanted everyone to be on the same version. Maybe a mandatory feature, which would mean an update may have to be done in the coming mounth to MO, or a critical flaw or improvement on their side.

Anyway for now it's nothing major and works all right...

[Halstrom]

Using Windows 8, trying to install Mod Organiser from Nexus and I get a

 

Can't write error using the installer

 

or

 

if installing manually

 

---------------------------
Mod Organizer 1.1.1 Setup
---------------------------
Error opening file for writing:

 

C:\Program Files (x86)\Mod Organizer\ModOrganizer.exe

 

Click Abort to stop the installation,

Retry to try again, or

Ignore to skip this file.
---------------------------
Abort   Retry   Ignore  
---------------------------

 

Nevermind, I got it going by a complete folder manual install  

[Halstrom]

Next dumb question how do I delete a mod from the plugin list? I'v tried right clicking them but there's no delete option. I also got mods in the left window as well as the right but the ticked mods in the right window can't drop into the left window, sorry I'm an FOMM user and this is obviously different in some way.

[bob11]

Next dumb question how do I delete a mod from the plugin list? I'v tried right clicking them but there's no delete option. I also got mods in the left window as well as the right but the ticked mods in the right window can't drop into the left window, sorry I'm an FOMM user and this is obviously different in some way.

 

Eh... I cannot understand the question.  If you don't want a mod to load AT ALL, untick it from the left column, the mod list.  If you want the mod's assets to be available but do not want the plugin to run for whatever reason, just untick the related .esp on the right column.  If you want to completely delete a mod to free up space, untick it on the left column, then right click, there's an option to remove it.

[Halstrom]

Yeah I loaded some mods I don't have the DLC for and they are in the right plugin list and uncheck ok, but got no idea how toremove them because the aren't in the left list, maybe they are the mods that were installed by NMM. Would that be the reason?