Rings of Power by J.R.R. Tokenism.

[unwashed biomass]

It is shit in nice package (eye candy visuals - sometimes) but witcher was much worse.

[beefers]

21 hours ago, Grey Cloud said:

That much is obvious from the rest of your post.

 

Have the terms "woke" or "social justice warrior" been used in this thread? I thought the majority of the posts addressed the bad writing, acting, story, pacing and what have you plus the manifold ways it contradicts Tolkien's version of his world.

 

Perhaps others have higher standards than you when it comes to what is 'watchable'.

 

I haven't watched it yet but House of the Dragon seems to be getting pretty reviews not least because of the writing, acting, story, pacing and sticking to Martin's world.

 

You're about the third person to post saying you think the show is alright and about the third to not offer any examples of where the show is good.

The title of this thread uses "Tokenism" in the title which infers "woke-ness" which is really just a way for people to be racist because they don't like black people in a role they see as white.  Those terms have also been used a LOT online to describe people's dislike of the series so far even though they don't define the terms.  Buzzwords are like platitudes... empty.

 

Perhaps I was unclear when I said "mass-appeal" and "watchable".  I don't normally watch "mass-appeal" media because it tends to be cliche, follow formulas and grab at low hanging fruit and that's not my thing.  Everyone thinks their tastes are superior and I'm willing to admit that I may indeed have lower standards but my watch list would suggest that I'm in line with what critics think are excellent shows, aimed at a smaller, headier audience.  Put as much value on that as you will.

 

I have nothing to say about HotD because I haven't watched any of the GoT stuff.

 

I did say the show was "as watchable" as any other mass-appeal media.  I didn't say it was good or even alright as you suggested and instead said I was less than enamored with any of the characters and didn't find the story engaging.

 

Perhaps you have reading and comprehension issues.

[Grey Cloud]

1 hour ago, beefers said:

The title of this thread uses "Tokenism" in the title which infers "woke-ness"

It is word play which I thought was amusing and used partly for my own amusement and partly to see what, if any, reaction it got.

 

1 hour ago, beefers said:

Perhaps you have reading and comprehension issues.

Are you are one of those. The book I'm currently reading: Suhrawardi and the School of Illumination by Mehdi Amin Razavi - Sufi philosophy if you are wondering.

 

You do not need to have watched HotD in order to comment on my point. I was talking about the reviews being largely favourable and certainly more favourable to those of ROP.

 

1 hour ago, beefers said:

I didn't say it was good or even alright as you suggested and instead said I was less than enamored with any of the characters and didn't find the story engaging.

You implied it was 'alright' by saying "I've watched the three episodes so far and though I wouldn't say they are "great", they are as watchable as any other mass-appeal shows being produced right now. In addition I was talking generally about the three people who had said it was alright or good.

 

You haven't really said anything concrete about ROP other than it's about as good as is to be expected these days. Most of what you have posted is your about your take on 'woke' and the like.

[sila]

Shadiversity (a youtuber that does historical medieval content) posted a video critiquing the armor and weapons from Rings of Power if anyone is interested:

 

[Grey Cloud]

Just now, sila said:

Shadiversity

Not a big fan of his. He gets far too hysterical for me and is not the armour and weapons expert he thinks he is. The practicality of the armour concerns me less than the fact it generally looks like plastic.

[sila]

2 minutes ago, Grey Cloud said:

Not a big fan of his. He gets far too hysterical for me and is not the armour and weapons expert he thinks he is. The practicality of the armour concerns me less than the fact it generally looks like plastic.

Fair enough, but I think it looking so poor quality is really telling for such a high budget production.

[Grey Cloud]

3 minutes ago, sila said:

I think it looking so poor quality is really telling for such a high budget production.

They could have bought better than that on Amazon. ?

[Grey Cloud]

Just watched episode 4 and it is still pathetic.

 

It chops and changes constantly so you get nice little bite-sized chunks which wont hurt your poor pleb brain.

 

Gladys overcomes four armoured palace guards with her bare hands and manhandles them into the cell she has just been released from.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOo2ORnq2LM

 

Dom Lemonlas grabs an arrow in mid flight. He also takes out a good dozen orcs even though he had no more than eight shafts in his quiver.

 

There's a scene involving a Numenorean ship sailing at full speed on the open sea. It looks like the ship is running on rails with no rolling or pitching.

 

All of the above pales into insignificance when compared to the dialogue. Ye gods the dialogue.

 

According to the opening credits the show has:

2 producers

1 co-executive producer

11 executive producers

 

That's enough for a full footie team plus three subs.

 

A show made by committee.

 

Gandalf's back with his episode 4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07oJtwqgtNE

 

Edited September 19, 2022 by Grey Cloud

[sila]

17 hours ago, Grey Cloud said:

Just watched episode 4 and it is still pathetic.

 

It chops and changes constantly so you get nice little bite-sized chunks which wont hurt your poor pleb brain.

 

Gladys overcomes four armoured palace guards with her bare hands and manhandles them into the cell she has just been released from.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOo2ORnq2LM

 

Dom Lemonlas grabs an arrow in mid flight. He also takes out a good dozen orcs even though he had no more than eight shafts in his quiver.

 

There's a scene involving a Numenorean ship sailing at full speed on the open sea. It looks like the ship is running on rails with no rolling or pitching.

 

All of the above pales into insignificance when compared to the dialogue. Ye gods the dialogue.

 

According to the opening credits the show has:

2 producers

1 co-executive producer

11 executive producers

 

That's enough for a full footie team plus three subs.

 

A show made by committee.

 

Gandalf's back with his episode 4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07oJtwqgtNE

 

I have to ask, why keep watching it if you dislike it so much? Do you just enjoy ridiculing it?

 

I mean I assumed it would be bad from the start just seeing who was making it, I don't plan on watching a single episode. 

 

[Grey Cloud]

33 minutes ago, sila said:

I have to ask, why keep watching it if you dislike it so much?

I have to ask why you keep reading this thread if you don't watch the show and don't understand why I post in this thread.

 

34 minutes ago, sila said:

Do you just enjoy ridiculing it?

I fascinated by how bad it is and want to see just how bad it will get. I cannot recall ever watching any TV or film with such terrible writing and that is without getting in to all the other areas where it fails so badly.

I cannot think of one area which I would consider 'good'. People mention the music but I only notice it when it annoys me. Most games I play have better music. The visuals look alright but don't really add anything. The CGI stuff is generally bad in that is often obvious where the CGI ends and the set begins.

It is now halfway through the first (and maybe last) series yet nothing much has happened.

[sila]

1 hour ago, Grey Cloud said:

I have to ask why you keep reading this thread if you don't watch the show and don't understand why I post in this thread.

 

I fascinated by how bad it is and want to see just how bad it will get. I cannot recall ever watching any TV or film with such terrible writing and that is without getting in to all the other areas where it fails so badly.

I cannot think of one area which I would consider 'good'. People mention the music but I only notice it when it annoys me. Most games I play have better music. The visuals look alright but don't really add anything. The CGI stuff is generally bad in that is often obvious where the CGI ends and the set begins.

It is now halfway through the first (and maybe last) series yet nothing much has happened.

I am reading the thread because I  enjoy a good shitshow. I enjoy watching things that I thought would be bad, be bad. If that makes sense?
I would never watch something myself that I did not think was worth the time watching. That's why I asked what interest you had in watching something you did not like.

Edited September 19, 2022 by sila

[Grey Cloud]

Nine minute synopsis of episode 4.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37E0GQMOaEc

 

 

[GrimReaper]

On 9/16/2022 at 9:52 PM, beefers said:

The title of this thread uses "Tokenism" in the title which infers "woke-ness" which is really just a way for people to be racist because they don't like black people in a role they see as white.

While there are certainly racist people who use the culture war as a smokescreen for their own racism, most people don't. Racewashing IPs is something that's never appreciated by the fans, no matter what skin color is involved. Fans of the show The Last Airbender didn't like that the live action version of the show had the Fire Nation displayed by Indians and didn't like the rest of the cast simply being white, by virtue that the OG show made it clear that every nation was a different flavor of asian. In the same vein people wouldn't probably enjoy a version of the Matrix where Neo was black and Morpheus was white. Heck, even just changing actors would probably upset quite a few, at least as long as the original ones are still available.

 

What annoys me the most is that "woke" creators are way too much of a coward to create their own IPs but are still enough of a weasel to claim that their commitee produced entertainment slurry is somehow the superior version of any IP they touch. If you want epic fantasy with black elves and dwarves, nobody is stopping you. But they won't do that for good reason, the only thing that usually carries their garbage is the original IP.

[Grey Cloud]

51 minutes ago, GrimReaper said:

If you want epic fantasy with black elves and dwarves, nobody is stopping you.

Exactly.

IMO the main thing which is stopping them is lack of ability - they would have to build a world from the ground up. A comprise (if they knew the fantasy genre) would be to find an obscure fantasy novel or series which didn't have a major fandom and would more readily lend itself to their goals.

 

===============================

 

I've just found this by a British guy. Excellent demonstration of the British way of doing things.

Listen to the first three minutes - "To the Nice Amazon Copyright Man". ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vT6bIea7YMo

 

[Heroine HoneyCrotch]

1 hour ago, Grey Cloud said:

Nine minute synopsis of episode 4.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37E0GQMOaEc

 

 

 

No whining and crying review

 

 

[Grey Cloud]

2 hours ago, Heroine HoneyCrotch said:

No whining and crying review

This isn't a review as it just gives a plot summary while prattling on about lore.

The lore references are useless if one doesn't already know the lore. They are mostly irrelevant given the inconsistencies and contradictions in the story as presented on screen.

 

The guy doesn't mention the poor writing, the poor continuity etc. For example, in the "they will take our jobs" scene there is one female elf on the island at that point in time and she is the first elf for centuries. When Pharazon orders "drinks all round" there are waiters with full trays ready to go.

 

No mention of unarmed Gladys manhandling four armed and armoured guards into a cell. She somehow manges to lock the cell too and all this in less time than it takes you to read these two sentences.

 

No mention of the village's worth of humans in the watch tower only having brought 5 potatoes with them despite having all night to prepare for the journey.

 

No mention of why Isildur gets kicked out of the naval academy for one offense without any sort of tribunal or whatnot nor any explanation as to why his two mates also get the boot even though it had nothing to do with them.

[Heroine HoneyCrotch]

30 minutes ago, Grey Cloud said:

The guy doesn't mention the poor writing, the poor continuity etc.

 

Its for people who are not really upset about Rings of Power, those people have other interest other than the negatives. Not everybody hates it, even with its faults

[Grey Cloud]

19 minutes ago, Heroine HoneyCrotch said:

Not everybody hates it,

Why the word 'hate'? I certainly don't hate it, it's just a TV program about a fictional world. I neither like it or dislike it - it's probably the worst written program that I've ever come across and as such it fascinates me.

I have much stronger feeling The Woman King as that attempts to re-write history and facts and I will not be watching that.

 

I really couldn't see the point of his "breakdown" other than jumping on the bandwagon. Anyone who had watched the episode didn't need the breakdown and anyone who was going to watch but hadn't yet would not want a breakdown. Anyone who wasn't interested in the episode would have no need for a breakdown.

Similarly the all lore stuff was more about him showing that he knew his lore than about adding anything to the understanding of the episode.

[sila]

7 hours ago, GrimReaper said:

While there are certainly racist people who use the culture war as a smokescreen for their own racism, most people don't. Racewashing IPs is something that's never appreciated by the fans, no matter what skin color is involved. Fans of the show The Last Airbender didn't like that the live action version of the show had the Fire Nation displayed by Indians and didn't like the rest of the cast simply being white, by virtue that the OG show made it clear that every nation was a different flavor of asian. In the same vein people wouldn't probably enjoy a version of the Matrix where Neo was black and Morpheus was white. Heck, even just changing actors would probably upset quite a few, at least as long as the original ones are still available.

 

What annoys me the most is that "woke" creators are way too much of a coward to create their own IPs but are still enough of a weasel to claim that their commitee produced entertainment slurry is somehow the superior version of any IP they touch. If you want epic fantasy with black elves and dwarves, nobody is stopping you. But they won't do that for good reason, the only thing that usually carries their garbage is the original IP.

To add, I don't generally care about race swapping as long as the actor comes close to the source material. For example folks cried about "white washing" the Ghost in the Shell movie lead, I thought the actor was a great pick for the Major. Because she looked reasonably close to the source material. If they cast her as a black woman, then I would have been against it.

 

I would be against Blade being cast as a white guy as well. What really bugs me about the whole race swapping thing is the double standard though. To them, if a show swaps any race for white, it is racist and should be condemned even if the actor is a good fit for the role (unless said character is a villain, see Woman King). If a white character gets swapped for a different race it is brave and stunning and everyone should applaud the diversity.

 

Diversity is great when it makes sense. Making a few characters black just to fill in a check box is not a good thing though. Reminds me of when folks were up in arms about Kingdom Come not having black characters everywhere. They even had a historian that said "well... maybe there could have been some black people there at that time" as a reason for adding black characters in every city.  Bohemia at the time was pretty much entirely white. For a game that cares about historical accuracy, that should be represented.

 

I would be just as against a movie or game set in Africa having a cast of entirely white characters, or having white characters sprinkled around as the villains in a time where they were not actually present in Africa.

Edited September 20, 2022 by sila

[GrimReaper]

On 9/20/2022 at 10:38 PM, sila said:

To add, I don't generally care about race swapping as long as the actor comes close to the source material. For example folks cried about "white washing" the Ghost in the Shell movie lead, I thought the actor was a great pick for the Major. Because she looked reasonably close to the source material. If they cast her as a black woman, then I would have been against it.

 

I would be against Blade being cast as a white guy as well. What really bugs me about the whole race swapping thing is the double standard though. To them, if a show swaps any race for white, it is racist and should be condemned even if the actor is a good fit for the role (unless said character is a villain, see Woman King). If a white character gets swapped for a different race it is brave and stunning and everyone should applaud the diversity.

 

Diversity is great when it makes sense. Making a few characters black just to fill in a check box is not a good thing though. Reminds me of when folks were up in arms about Kingdom Come not having black characters everywhere. They even had a historian that said "well... maybe there could have been some black people there at that time" as a reason for adding black characters in every city.  Bohemia at the time was pretty much entirely white. For a game that cares about historical accuracy, that should be represented.

 

I would be just as against a movie or game set in Africa having a cast of entirely white characters, or having white characters sprinkled around as the villains in a time where they were not actually present in Africa.

That's probably because anime is pretty ambigious when it comes to how characters look. The Major from GITS can both be played by a white or asian woman without disregarding the source material, at least when it comes to looks, because most anime features don't really translate well into real life.

 

That because diversity is pretty much an euphemism for "less white" in this case. Nobody would criticize a movie with a majority black cast as being not diverse enough or criticize a game developer for being too black. As for the reasons why companies are doing it, investors like Blackrock have come up with an investing scheme they call "ESG score". It's entirely arbitrary so it's basically a way for powerhouses like Blackrock to strongarm their political beliefs on any company that needs investments, which is basically everyone at this point. However, they still need to make money to return the investments, that's why companies take existing IPs instead of creating new ones. Less risk means returns are more probable and injecting woke politics into a product is a cheap way to raise your ESG score by a few levels.

 

The only entities that are removed from that process are companies that don't really need investments, such as indie developers or film makers.

[landess]

I quit watching 'TV' 20 years ago and have only 'streamed' a couple shows Like ROME or sadly GoT (I waited till the 4th season and they still GoT me) so I just find it both amusing and sad to learn about the tripe that is made now.

 

It seems standard operating procedure anymore for these 'series' to start, but don't have an ending to build towards like the classic 'mini-series' of old that might have 5 2-hour episodes and done. Now they're just soap operas ruled by online pandering.

 

Nope. Don't miss it at all.

[mercplatypus]

What's genuinely sad about this is the fact that they had more than enough room to make something fantastic without needing to start ramming in weird nonsense in such a ham-fisted way.  Instead of just focusing each season on its own major event in the Second Age they've decided to condense at least two thousand years' worth of story into a few months/years.  It's an utterly confused mess.  Add poor dialogue, low quality acting from most of the cast and quite possibly the most unlikeable main character I can remember in the last several years and it makes me wonder where the supposedly $1 billion spent actually went to.

 

Seriously at this point, I want the orcs and Sauron to win.  At least then we might get some heroes who are actually competent. 

[belegost]

On 9/19/2022 at 12:23 AM, Grey Cloud said:

Just watched episode 4 and it is still pathetic.

 

I admire your dedication. I quit after ep.1 which is a new record, previously held by Flixer which I quit 15 minutes into ep.2.

[Grey Cloud]

1 hour ago, mercplatypus said:

What's genuinely sad about this is the fact that they had more than enough room to make something fantastic without needing to start ramming in weird nonsense in such a ham-fisted way.  Instead of just focusing each season on its own major event in the Second Age they've decided to condense at least two thousand years' worth of story into a few months/years.  It's an utterly confused mess.  Add poor dialogue, low quality acting from most of the cast and quite possibly the most unlikeable main character I can remember in the last several years and it makes me wonder where the supposedly $1 billion spent actually went to.

That's pretty much where I'm coming from.

It's the fascination with just how bad it is in virtually every department that keeps me watching.

 

As I understand it, the show is supposed to be down for 5 series and it will be more than a year between series. I can't see the audience sticking around that time period unless some serious reconfibulating goes on. Assuming it doesn't get axed of course.

There is also the problem of ageless elves played by ageing actors.

[DrunkenCow]

7 hours ago, mercplatypus said:

it makes me wonder where the supposedly $1 billion spent actually went to

 

It's Hollywood.  The bulk of that is cocaine.  The rest is marketing, SFX, hookers, bribes, and payoffs to Tolkein's kids to prevent a lawsuit.