Rings of Power by J.R.R. Tokenism.

[Grey Cloud]

In the title of this thread I used J.R.R. Tokenism because tokenism is all that this series has.  As far as speaking roles we have one dark skinned elf, one dark skinned dwarf, a couple of dark skinned harfoots, a couple of dark skinned humans and a couple of dark skinned Numenorians.

As I understand it, there are parts of Middle-Earth which have dark skinned peoples so they could have made a show where the cast was almost entirely made up of non-white actors. That would have made a statement. But no, we had months of virtue signalling and preaching 'the message' before delivering a show with a smattering of what Dame Edna Everage famously called 'token tinted'.

[Damicles]

18 minutes ago, Grey Cloud said:

In the title of this thread I used J.R.R. Tokenism because tokenism is all that this series has.  As far as speaking roles we have one dark skinned elf, one dark skinned dwarf, a couple of dark skinned harfoots, a couple of dark skinned humans and a couple of dark skinned Numenorians.

As I understand it, there are parts of Middle-Earth which have dark skinned peoples so they could have made a show where the cast was almost entirely made up of non-white actors. That would have made a statement. But no, we had months of virtue signalling and preaching 'the message' before delivering a show with a smattering of what Dame Edna Everage famously called 'token tinted'.

They could of done a epic of sauron corrupting the Hadrem who were dark skinned people and the fall of there civilization to darkness but no got to have this fan fiction.

[Grey Cloud]

29 minutes ago, Damicles said:

They could of done a epic of sauron corrupting the Hadrem

I think they are the people I am thinking of. Are they the ones who turned up in the films with the elephants?

Hmm. ? That's means you would have dark skinned people being portrayed in a bad light.

Edited September 11, 2022 by Grey Cloud

[Grey Cloud]

 

 

 

[steelpanther24]

19 hours ago, Mez558 said:

Also, bear in mind half of us are playing Skyrim, where much of the land is like an icy tundra, with female characters wearing little more than leather lingerie with high-heels and the most common explaination for why this is still immersive is "There's Magic and Dragons and shit so why not?"
 

 

No, it is well known that the bad guys aim for the shiny parts.  College Humor provided this point on YT.    Chain mail bikinis do work (just not in my Skyrim world because I am one of those that has Hot and Cold mod installed, so she would freeze to death before making it out of Helgan.

 

 

[belegost]

On 9/10/2022 at 10:42 PM, Mez558 said:

Skyrim, where much of the land is like an icy tundra, with female characters wearing little more than leather lingerie with high-heels and the most common explaination for why this is still immersive is

 

...is Project Rainforest.

[27X]

On 9/9/2022 at 11:52 AM, legendarytoyou said:

To that effect, wasn't Galadriel herself a very powerful sorceress but NEVER a front line soldier?  I've read the Silmarillion, the Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit and none even hinted that she was a Middle Earth version of Zaraki Kenpachi, more like a nation defender/builder really.  Did I miss something or is the Rings of Power just really poor fan fiction?

 

Galadriel is literally the Voice of interracial Reason and Understanding in the books. She is as far from this wokeajokewamminsarebeastmode trainwreck as is thematically or topically possible. Elrond is supposed to be the cranky one and neither of them are idiots or zealots at any point in the story. They saw their kinsmen create the One Ring bullshit in the first place by slaughtering their own just to get access to boats, they both know BY EXAMPLE just how stupid going full revenge retard can be.

 

This character isn't even a kind of Galadriel.

Edited September 13, 2022 by 27X

[27X]

On 9/10/2022 at 2:42 PM, Mez558 said:

Also, bear in mind half of us are playing Skyrim, where much of the land is like an icy tundra, with female characters wearing little more than leather lingerie with high-heels and the most common explaination for why this is still immersive is "There's Magic and Dragons and shit so why not?"

 Nords are literally immune to cold, until the part where someone forgot they were because Skyrim was made by committee.

[Pamatronic]

9 minutes ago, 27X said:

Nords are literally immune to cold, until the part where someone forgot they were because Skyrim was made by committee.

BUUUT, if they were completely immune to cold, wouldn't this completely invalidate any form of frost damage magic?

[Grey Cloud]

10 minutes ago, 27X said:

Nords are literally immune to cold, until the part where someone forgot they were because Skyrim was made by committee.

Resistant (30%) to frost in Daggerfall. Immune (100%) to frost in Morrowind. Resistant to frost (50 points) in Oblivion.

[27X]

39 minutes ago, Pamatronic said:

BUUUT, if they were completely immune to cold, wouldn't this completely invalidate any form of frost damage magic?

 

yep.

[GrimReaper]

On 9/11/2022 at 4:34 PM, Grey Cloud said:

I think they are the people I am thinking of. Are they the ones who turned up in the films with the elephants?

Hmm. ? That's means you would have dark skinned people being portrayed in a bad light.

Sauron's influence corrupted a lot of of the northern people as well. Even Isildur wasn't strong enough to withstand the influence of the One Ring. Not to mention Frodo, who would've delivered the Ring right to Sauron himself if it weren't for good old Smeagol. The victory over Sauron wasn't a triumphant campaign of good vs. evil, it was through happenstance and luck because every hero failed at the crucial moment. Boromir is another such example. The elves are a bit more complicated but they, along with the dwarves and hobbits are - for different reasons each - fading species doomed to disappear. Tolkien understood history as a long defeat with glimpses of hope sprinkled in, most prominent found in myths and legends. Lord of the Rings reflects that. There's nothing that would've stopped Amazon from telling a story about rebels in the southern lands that oppose Sauron but ultimately fail to get rid of his influence.

 

But no, of course you have to retcon the whole source material that the authors obviously don't understand for woke points or to make Blackrock happy or something along those lines. Lord of the Rings isn't a happy story despite Sauron being defeated. It's essentially the death of a fantasy universe that's transitioning into a mundane world filled with the cruelty and ignorance of man. Hence why Tolkien couldn't come up with a sequel even though he tried.

Edited September 14, 2022 by GrimReaper

[Grey Cloud]

6 minutes ago, GrimReaper said:

Tolkien understood history as a long defeat with glimpses of hope sprinkled in, most prominent found in myths and legends.

Tolkien was a devout Catholic so it is unlikely that would be his view of history and that type of historical view is not what one finds in myths and legends.

 

10 minutes ago, GrimReaper said:

There's nothing that would've stopped Amazon from telling a story about rebels in the southern lands that oppose Sauron but ultimately fail to get rid of his influence.

I had the same thought after I watched a YT vid I came across after writing that post.

[GrimReaper]

3 hours ago, Grey Cloud said:

Tolkien was a devout Catholic so it is unlikely that would be his view of history and that type of historical view is not what one finds in myths and legends.

 

That's precisely why he held that view: Actually I am a Christian, and indeed a Roman Catholic, so that I do not expect 'history' to be anything but a 'long defeat' – though it contains (and in a legend may contain more clearly and movingly) some samples or glimpses of final victory.

 

Letter 195.

 

[Grey Cloud]

3 minutes ago, GrimReaper said:

That's precisely why he held that view: Actually I am a Christian, and indeed a Roman Catholic, so that I do not expect 'history' to be anything but a 'long defeat' – though it contains (and in a legend may contain more clearly and movingly) some samples or glimpses of final victory.

 

Letter 195.

 

Fair enough but I would have thought that Christianity was centred on the notion the Jesus was coming back to put things right - that is what being messiah/Christ is.

 

Tolkien only uses the word 'legend' in that letter paragraph but even so, in terms of what constitutes 'myth', 'legend' and 'folk tales' definitions and ideas have changed since the fifties. Understanding of mythology is undergoing a transformation today. There are several good YT series out there about Norse myth which cast questions on Tolkien's take on things - e.g. in the Norse tales dwarfs and elves are often written about as though they are the same thing.

 

https://www.youtube.com/c/JacksonCrawford

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaABSpp24MY&list=PLxDBGYdDmm2n7-nYh49d9qMJRZB8Z1qSa&index=26

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOZY3AJTudA

 

[GrimReaper]

15 minutes ago, Grey Cloud said:

Fair enough but I would have thought that Christianity was centred on the notion the Jesus was coming back to put things right - that is what being messiah/Christ is.

 

That would be the final victory Tolkien was talking about. Christian eschatology is pretty grim all things considered, there's a lot of suffering or a long defeat if you will until things get set straight again during Judgement Day. Tolkien had a similar idea for Middle Earth but didn't really flesh it out while his son, Christopher Tolkien, removed that part from the Silmarillion. Sauron wasn't the end of evil, it was a comparatively small victory against evil in the grand scheme of things because evil will just rise again in a new form. It's just not the fantastical kind of evil that Sauron was but the mundane, human variation. Here's what he had to say about a possible sequel that confirms what he said about a long defeat:

 

I did begin a story placed about 100 years after the Downfall, but it proved both sinister and depressing. Since we are dealing with Men, it is inevitable that we should be concerned with the most regrettable feature of their nature: their quick satiety with good. So that the people of Gondor in times of peace, justice and prosperity, would become discontented and restless — while the dynasts descended from Aragorn would become just kings and governors — like Denethor or worse. I found that even so early there was an outcrop of revolutionary plots, about a centre of secret Satanistic religion; while Gondorian boys were playing at being Orcs and going around doing damage. I could have written a 'thriller' about the plot and its discovery and overthrow — but it would have been just that. Not worth doing.

[Grey Cloud]

All the Abrahamic religions are based on misery and suffering. I'll stick to the Perennial Philosophy.

 

For some reason the spell checker is flagging 'philosophy' ?‍♂️

[Grey Cloud]

Gandalf Roasts ROP 1 and 3.

 

 

 
 

 

Edited September 15, 2022 by Grey Cloud

[beefers]

I literally have no idea what you people are talking about in this thread.  I've watched the three episodes so far and though I wouldn't say they are "great", they are as watchable as any other mass-appeal shows being produced right now.  I don't know what people mean when they say it's "woke" or "social justice warrior" and I don't think they do either, it's just buzzwords that people hear and repeat for something they don't like for whatever reason.

 

I saw a blatant political agenda (continue to) destroy Star Wars and other IPs but I don't see that in "Rings of Power", at least not yet.  I'll admit I'm not enamored with any of the characters and there isn't much of a story but that's true for MOST shows out there.  If you don't want to watch/support it, don't.   I don't subscribe to ANY of these streaming services and instead steal everything from the internet for free.  You can simply stop paying for services and that will force companies to change.

Edited September 15, 2022 by beefers

[Grey Cloud]

13 minutes ago, beefers said:

I literally have no idea what you people are talking about in this thread.

That much is obvious from the rest of your post.

 

14 minutes ago, beefers said:

I don't know what people mean when they say it's "woke" or "social justice warrior" and I don't think they do either, it's just buzzwords that people hear and repeat for something they don't like for whatever reason.

Have the terms "woke" or "social justice warrior" been used in this thread? I thought the majority of the posts addressed the bad writing, acting, story, pacing and what have you plus the manifold ways it contradicts Tolkien's version of his world.

 

18 minutes ago, beefers said:

they are as watchable as any other mass-appeal shows being produced right now.

Perhaps others have higher standards than you when it comes to what is 'watchable'.

 

I haven't watched it yet but House of the Dragon seems to be getting pretty reviews not least because of the writing, acting, story, pacing and sticking to Martin's world.

 

You're about the third person to post saying you think the show is alright and about the third to not offer any examples of where the show is good.

[benewi3640]

7 hours ago, beefers said:

I literally have no idea what you people are talking about in this thread.  I've watched the three episodes so far and though I wouldn't say they are "great", they are as watchable as any other mass-appeal shows being produced right now.  I don't know what people mean when they say it's "woke" or "social justice warrior" and I don't think they do either, it's just buzzwords that people hear and repeat for something they don't like for whatever reason.

 

I saw a blatant political agenda (continue to) destroy Star Wars and other IPs but I don't see that in "Rings of Power", at least not yet.  I'll admit I'm not enamored with any of the characters and there isn't much of a story but that's true for MOST shows out there.  If you don't want to watch/support it, don't.   I don't subscribe to ANY of these streaming services and instead steal everything from the internet for free.  You can simply stop paying for services and that will force companies to change.

If I may, the biggest problem I've seen is that the black elf was in a tree with a buzz cut holding his bow gangsta. 

 

There's a limited amount of ways to spin that and none of them are good.  All of them are offensive. 

Long story short that's a consistent pattern.  The constant swapping out of gingers with black people (anagram ginger) and reducing nigh every mainstream black lead I've spent more than four hours invested in to that moment in Blazing Saddles when Bart decoys the KKK members behind the rock....

 

There's a real problem where a "radically offensive" (by modern standards) movie like Blazing Saddles manages a deeper and more heartfelt scene (Bart after the lady calls him a n-) then anything I've seen in the past "pandering" decade.  If you want my opinion, it's all a joke.  Hollywood is run by closet racists and they're taking as much of a piss on black people as possible. 

Edited September 16, 2022 by benewi3640

[Grey Cloud]

5 hours ago, benewi3640 said:

If I may, the biggest problem I've seen is that the black elf was in a tree with a buzz cut holding his bow gangsta.

So the bad writing, acting, story, pacing, costumes, etc. are not an issue? Don Lemonlas is not the only elf who has a ridiculous hair cut and carrying a bow in that way has been done it that way for years. That 'en garde' thing the elves do with their swords - raised, bent left arm with the end of the sword resting on the forearm e.g. in the ice troll fight is equally ridiculous.

I've not seen any negative comments about the black actor in House of Dragon. There appears to be a storm brewing over this new film Woman King(?) which is the usual Hollywood pap packaged under the rubric of 'based on a true story' while being largely made up and nothing like what happened.

[benewi3640]

6 hours ago, Grey Cloud said:

So the bad writing, acting, story, pacing, costumes, etc. are not an issue? Don Lemonlas is not the only elf who has a ridiculous hair cut and carrying a bow in that way has been done it that way for years. That 'en garde' thing the elves do with their swords - raised, bent left arm with the end of the sword resting on the forearm e.g. in the ice troll fight is equally ridiculous.

I've not seen any negative comments about the black actor in House of Dragon. There appears to be a storm brewing over this new film Woman King(?) which is the usual Hollywood pap packaged under the rubric of 'based on a true story' while being largely made up and nothing like what happened.

No, I've come to expect that from American storytelling.  

[steelpanther24]

7 minutes ago, benewi3640 said:

No, I've come to expect that from American storytelling.  

Huh?   The directors are from England, Spain and France.   I am pretty sure that they can change the script, and I know they control the pacing, costumes, etc.   

 

[Guest]

The only movies released after 2018 that I watched were Irishman and Dune. 

All the rest was ignored.