Why do governments ban pornography?

[s.kirmish]

I just learned that South Korea has apparently banned pornography altogether with strict enforcement some years ago. I always wondered why countries do this, since there seems to be a negative relation between pornographic liberty and number of rapes. (I quickly looked up SK on this, and sure enough, there is a consistent 25% increase since 2014, though it might be unrelated)

 

If you look at a map about the legal status of porn, you will find that most liberal western societies see no issue with it (except the degenerate UK 'government' and for some reason Iceland). The evil influences like moral depravity, increase in crime (often sexual related ones) and de-motivation of the work force that banning countries like India always cite, seem to be proven wrong by negative example. (although some other liberal countries, like those in South America do have a problem in that regard. But then you could assume with decent certainty that they are unrelated at least)

On the contrary, all the countries with very strict laws often have horrific sexual crimes, often going well beyond rape. (example from China: rape+impregnation farms and sale-adoptions during embryonal stage already for the girls, who then get to live and grow up with abusers)

 

Yet, they still do it, and continue to push for it. Why?

 

South Korea doesn't even have the underlying puritan christian culture drive as an excuse. Looking at the map it also jumps to attention that all the more authoritarian governments engage in censorship in this direction.

Is there some theory about how chastising men in this regard leads to stricter control? Or is it for the family and reproduction drive that extreme right and left wingers always seem to embrace?

On the "internet censorship in south korea" wiki page I also found the criticism that these anti-depravity/porn-ban laws often get abused to actually just have an excuse to ban whatever politics wants, as SK seems to do this just like China: Accuse some website or source as violating decency, and apply this legal tool handle to Hulk smash.(but no V)

 

I am not really informed on this however, but with the authoritarian grip also ever so slightly getting stronger in my country too, and also having seen the first law to regulate and diminish prostitution under some pseudo "protection" pretext despite quite some public resistance, I fear it can get worse here too. (though it would still take many years to erode it to the SK degree)

But is that the whole story? The more authoritarian, the less liberty for pornography? And why?

[Swanky]

Quite often I think those forces working on that are extremely conservative and likely uptight, like you should do it only at home, at night, with lights out. Or they're out for personal gain / power. They simply try to tell people how they should live. Happens everywhere in the world, some places more repressive, some places try to censor porn.

 

Kinda reminds me of what the senate tried with regards to metal back in the 80's. Good thing the metal world was prepared.

Note that Senator Gore (yepp, he's still out there today) has been divorced multiple times while Dee Snider is still happily married to his girlfriend back from school.

 

 

[JimmyCow]

First, who knows what reasons south koreans want to ban it for, and if it's a majoritarian consensus.

 

Well, second, when it comes to child pornography, it's to protect children. That's... not what you asked but your title technically does not distinguish.

 

You suggest that it has to do with authoritarian grips yet South Korea is pretty liberalized in Asia.

Is it true that less pornography leads to more rape? That would be interesting if true. Some 'study' that just says they correlate does not mean it's causal.

 

I dunno, look at Kpop. It's the most sexualized music out there. Pretty funny they ban porn instead. I'd be happy if they banned both.

 

[s.kirmish]

2 hours ago, Swanky said:

Quite often I think those forces working on that are extremely conservative and likely uptight, like you should do it only at home, at night, with lights out. Or they're out for personal gain / power. They simply try to tell people how they should live. Happens everywhere in the world, some places more repressive, some places try to censor porn.

I thought about the conservative route too, but it seems not very convincing to me. Sure, there were conservatives in the US trying to shut all kinds of things down, but you otherwise often see those individual not practicing what they preach. Some may really think so, some do not, but still push it. Other countries are much less conservative, but this still happens.

Also, it never seems to be that any other position than alleged conservative values are pushed when restricting life liberties like this. (the recent SJ stuff is rather novel, 10 years pretty much, and given its size more like a cult-like phenomenon) If it was just people telling others how to live, you would guess that some really arbitrary personal judgement of the currently powerful would constantly encroach on freedoms here and there.

Maybe it is because there is lesser resistance on this path when people would be more ashamed to defend it publicly, so this would just be where the tell-them-people get through. I don't know.

 

1 hour ago, JimmyCow said:

You suggest that it has to do with authoritarian grips yet South Korea is pretty liberalized in Asia.

Ahah, South Korea is definitely a couple steps down from what we would think of in western democracies, or even Japan. The list and explanation would be long, but one big part would be that companies have way more influence over politics and every say, and the livelihood of the people there.

Yes, I know, same here, right? No, it is way worse. Their corruptions runs deep enough that they do it in the open, and everyone knows it. Every South Korean for example knows that small business can not succeed, because as soon as it gets reasonably profitable, it either gets integrated (the lucky outcome), or stomped out via some arbitrary regulation/legislation directly dictated by the big companies. SK is in a state of corporate slave labor, where the little man cannot succeed, no, not even with university degrees in engineering and such, as he will have more sure, but he can't be a big winner entrepreneur (save something, start something), and will still have to work to exhaustion. The rich control all the destinies, - no one who isn't already in a wealthy family gets to bubble up, unless really really exceptional.

 

They are not authoritarian at all, don't get me wrong, they are still around. I mean, if you put western democracies and the theocracies (also atheist ones like China) on a line scale, you can see that South Koreas difference concerning the handling of pornography in relation to the liberal west could very well be attributed to its thus decently farther right positioning.

 

Not saying that is the reason, but it still could be, because SK is not as strong on the democratic side.

 

Quote

Is it true that less pornography leads to more rape? That would be interesting if true. Some 'study' that just says they correlate does not mean it's causal.

...This is exactly where the idea with the possible authoritarian origins came from. If the correlation we see is not causal, then you have to explain why some states still come up with more rape and less freedoms. ...And those overwhelmingly turn out to be more or less down the authoritarian side of the hill.(compared to the west at least)

So is it causal after all? Or is it the authoritarianism of various spectral degrees. (and if, still, why do they even do it. "bread and circus" used to be a wisdom to keep the masses sane. I can very well see porn in that mission too. )

[27X]

1 hour ago, JimmyCow said:

s it true that less pornography leads to more rape?

Yes.

[Corsayr]

3 hours ago, s.kirmish said:

I just learned that South Korea has apparently banned pornography altogether with strict enforcement some years ago.

Where did you learn this?

 

Did you follow up to determine the scope?

 

I looked at it briefly and all I can see is South Korea cracking down on hidden cam porn sites. In that instance the problem was that the cams were not just hidden but the subjects didn't know about them. Which of course isn't a porn issue but a total invasion of privacy issue. 

 

So some clarification as to what banning you mean is needed. 

[landess]

History repeats itself is an observation, but not an explanation.

 

The Roman Empire achieved many things before falling to corruption and decline. Followed by Puritanism and the Spanish Inquisition. It seems these cultural cycles happen faster now due to advances in technology.

 

Ebb and flow is a good measure of how the world has operated over time with constant examples available for anyone looking for correlation. Generations of culture looking for that golden standard blame ineffectiveness's on previous generations standards while causing the pendulum to swing far in the opposite direction, followed by a newer generation feeling the same thing - and on and on it goes.....

[s.kirmish]

1 hour ago, Corsayr said:

Where did you learn this?

 

Did you follow up to determine the scope?

 

I looked at it briefly and all I can see is South Korea cracking down on hidden cam porn sites. In that instance the problem was that the cams were not just hidden but the subjects didn't know about them. Which of course isn't a porn issue but a total invasion of privacy issue. 

 

So some clarification as to what banning you mean is needed. 

Because some lewd game creator allegedly stopped producing, because pornography production in his country (SK) became illegal and persecuted.

Then I read up on, and found only positives. Here is just the wiki summary: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornography_laws_by_region#South_Korea

[Captain Cobra]

2 hours ago, JimmyCow said:

I dunno, look at Kpop. It's the most sexualized music out there. Pretty funny they ban porn instead. I'd be happy if they banned both.

Kpop is that way because of the ban.

[Corsayr]

6 minutes ago, s.kirmish said:

Read it throughout a longer thread in f95zone.to, because some lewd game creator allegedly stopped producing, because pornography production in his country (SK) became illegal and persecuted.

Then I read up on, and found only positives. Here is just the wiki summary: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornography_laws_by_region#South_Korea

The next obvious question is, how do the laws define pornography? If we look at a general map of how pornography is treated from a legality stand point we see that SE Asia is mostly illegal.

 

Spoiler

 

how pornography is defined by the laws often speaks to the "why" it was made illegal in the first place. 

 

But as we can see from the map, most countries either have no data, or are partially or fully legal. Obviously we know why the areas that have a primarily Muslim influence are all red so if we take those out of the picture (knowing that they are red because of strict religious objections) there are really only a hand full of totally illegal countries left, of which SK is one. 

 

 

[Corsayr]

If we go by this article which is referenced a few times in the wiki blurb about SK porn laws a typical porn cop would be exemplified by Moon Tae-Hwa (who the article is about). His motivation is Christian.

 

https://archive.vn/20140806004953/http://sys03-public.nbcnews.com/technology/south-koreas-porn-fight-shoveling-blizzard-1C7511844

 

Quote

"I feel like I'm cleaning up dirty things," the devout Christian and family counselor said.

 

[s.kirmish]

Even if you are willing to believe that all these 800 cops are all christian (..does Moon really "exemplify" them?), how could their beliefs stand for a whole governments agenda on the issue, and influence/practically oppress so many others with their dogma who don't believe this at all? South Korea is not christian.

 

38 minutes ago, Corsayr said:

But as we can see from the map, most countries either have no data, or are partially or fully legal. Obviously we know why the areas that have a primarily Muslim influence are all red so if we take those out of the picture (knowing that they are red because of strict religious objections) there are really only a hand full of totally illegal countries left, of which SK is one. 

You are quick to imply the yellow ones would be off the hook. I think I mentioned the UK above, which is yellow in the map, but have the government compass leaning straight to puritanism in recent years.(pornography is the least problem. they try to tell its citizen what two consenting adults can and can't do in their own bedroom behind closed doors.)

Russia's campaigns against pornography have large notoriety. Japan however would deserve a label on its own, since in some ways you could argue they are most liberal of them all, with just some nonsense restrictions as a patch.

 

It seems you are trying hard to win an argument, although I am not sure why this bothers you so much. I am only interested in truth or perspective.

[Corsayr]

There is also this line from the article which supports the claim that a Christian influence is behind the bans. I am not fully aware of how Confucian morality plays into it, but it would fall under the general header of "Religious based suppression"  

 

Quote

South Korea has a history of censorship nurtured by decades of military-backed rule that ended only in the late 1980s. It also has a large and active conservative Christian population and a deep-rooted strain of Confucian morality. 

 

I wouldn't say the yellows were "off the hook", but they clearly do not fall under the "banned pornography altogether with strict enforcement" umbrella. Those countries obviously have nuanced legal constructs and would need to be individually evaluated. 

 

 

[Distortedrealms]

8 hours ago, Swanky said:

Quite often I think those forces working on that are extremely conservative and likely uptight, like you should do it only at home, at night, with lights out. Or they're out for personal gain / power. They simply try to tell people how they should live. Happens everywhere in the world, some places more repressive, some places try to censor porn.

 

Kinda reminds me of what the senate tried with regards to metal back in the 80's. Good thing the metal world was prepared.

Note that Senator Gore (yepp, he's still out there today) has been divorced multiple times while Dee Snider is still happily married to his girlfriend back from school.

 

 

Good reference! Not enough people realize the bullet free speech dodged that day. Dee Snyder is a damn hero and not enough people realize, he, and other rock/metal acts, showed strong will, intelligence, and composure at these hearings where everybody instantly judged them based on their looks. They underestimated them, thought they would be cavemen but instead got schooled. The only real result of that farce is the 'parental advisory: Explicit Content' label put on media, but it could have been a damn sight worse.

[FauxFurry]

It is because there are special interest groups who will cause much trouble for them if they do not, ranging from endless complaints to demonization to riots or outright murder.

[AKM]

On 7/25/2020 at 11:33 AM, s.kirmish said:

The more authoritarian, the less liberty for pornography? And why?

I think you just answered your own question there.  That's what authoritarianism is all about: I get to do whatever I want, while being able to prevent others from doing whatever they want.

A religious based example:
 

Spoiler

I remember reading once (I think it was in Welcome to Afghanistan, Please Send Ammo) about a soldier walking into an internet cafe in Kabul (or some other large city) and sitting down next to a religious leader.. who was watching - porn. 

 

Rules for thee, but not for me.

[FauxFurry]

11 minutes ago, AKM said:

I think you just answered your own question there.  That's what authoritarianism is all about: I get to do whatever I want, while being able to prevent others from doing whatever they want.

A religious based example:
 

  Hide contents

I remember reading once (I think it was in Welcome to Afghanistan, Please Send Ammo) about a soldier walking into an internet cafe in Kabul (or some other large city) and sitting down next to a religious leader.. who was watching - porn. 

 

Rules for thee, but not for me.

Their rationale is: "If I do not watch pornography, I will not know what degeneracy to shield the populace from!" Censors always have the 'dirtiest' minds.

[GrimReaper]

Because society is falling apart and the elite likes to point fingers at everything except themselves.

[s.kirmish]

On 7/25/2020 at 10:32 PM, Corsayr said:

 

I wouldn't say the yellows were "off the hook", but they clearly do not fall under the "banned pornography altogether with strict enforcement" umbrella.

The original question is though why countries would engage in any kind of move to restrict pornography.(including mere censorship) With an asterisk perhaps asking about any reason other than religious dogma.

 

On 7/27/2020 at 2:13 AM, AKM said:

I think you just answered your own question there.  That's what authoritarianism is all about: I get to do whatever I want, while being able to prevent others from doing whatever they want.

But that isn't an explanation for "why" still. Just because they can?

It could arguably even be counterproductive to their cause, since there is reason to believe that there are least some positive effects on stability that pornography has. That is not just indicated by the rape statistics, but only seems reasonable under the beneficial "bread and circus" policy idea I had mentioned above.

Sailors got to crash in the harbor to blow of some steam in medieval-renaissance times. At these rougher ages, a captain forbidding this could court chance of mutiny perhaps? (maybe not the best comparison, but the idea counts)

 

On 7/27/2020 at 2:46 AM, GrimReaper said:

Because society is falling apart and the elite likes to point fingers at everything except themselves.

It also happens when society isn't is really falling apart, but I accept the general point. "For the children" or "anti-this&thatEvil" can sell whatever intrusion or agenda you want to push.

This only applies when they actually do push or hide something however. Maybe also as a buildup for a personal 'hardliner' portfolio proof.

 

Even taking those out, the movement still seems broader than that. Subtract religion and other classical conservatism, subtract personal gain and diversion moves, and there seems to still be a remainder of interests, that I have honestly no idea where it comes from, and where their motives or reasoning lies. (this is a claim, obviously)

Is it just shame? Or does becoming old do something to your view on this and then they become active counters? Would that just be envy, or is that real wisdom? (considering the markup of the players pushing it, I am inclined to doubt it)

Is it just another incarnation of typical anti-science people that conclude simple-mindedly "just ban bad". Like 'porn has rape, therefore porn causes rape, therefore ban all porn'.

This proclaims at least good intentions, but then there is the authoritarian side's push again, where I just can't think of a reasonable point.

[Corsayr]

7 minutes ago, s.kirmish said:

The original question is though why countries would engage in any kind of move to restrict pornography.(including mere censorship) With an asterisk perhaps asking about any reason other than religious dogma.

Well assuming the government is not itself theocratically motivated (Which is obviously NOT true for most of the red countries on that map) the motivation would be easy voters.

 

Theocratic voters are usually one issue voters, you appease their theocracy and you can have their vote. They generally won't care about any other thing you do, you just have to say your opponent will bring back porn, brothels, and all other manner of sin they will back you no matter what. 

 

But religion has been the driving force behind sexual repression for approx the last 2 to 10 thousand years.  

[lordgdavid]

Shaming is a cornerstone of modern western society. And there is nothing that can be shamed more than sexuality. I don't even want to think of the consequences in real life if people knew I visited a website like LL quite often. Which is funny considering how there is no question about most of society consuming some kind of porn. What bothers me is that the norm of porn consumption is reduced to shit quality 5-10 minute clips on "free" sites like xvideos, pornhub and the rest. Porn could be an art of its own but it is banished to the closet. 

[AKM]

11 minutes ago, lordgdavid said:

Shaming is a cornerstone of modern western society. And there is nothing that can be shamed more than sexuality. I don't even want to think of the consequences in real life if people knew I visited a website like LL quite often. Which is funny considering how

there is no question about most of society consuming some kind of porn.

Porn could be an art of its own but it is banished to the closet. 

You're absolutely right on all accounts.  It's baffling to me how the U.S. society in particular goes out of its way to "protect" children from their sexuality.  This leads directly to people feeling, if not outright ashamed of their sexuality, then certainly like they can't share it.  Thus, they wind up turning to porn rather than forming healthy relationships based on their mutual interests.

If you look at other countries, sexuality is just a normal part of existence, and it's woven into the fabric of society.  In the U.S., children get a "sex is bad, the consequences are worse, don't do it!" speech around-about age 10-12, with little information, and virtually no real guidance, and then - nothing.  Right when they need that guidance most, the issue is completely ignored.  As if it'll just go away if it's ignored long enough.  They're left to fend for themselves, and learn from each other (when both parties know equally little/nothing) while their hormones rage, and the consequences are obvious in the skyrocketing rate of teen pregnancies.  Then, when it's found that young adults have little control over their urges, "the rules" are just thrown out the window, and the new norm is simply accepted.  Never mind the fact that such things are bad for the individuals involved, and just as bad for society as a whole.  "It is what it is, there's noting we can do about it.  Just sweep it under the rug and ignore it." seems to be society's response.  It's bullshit.

[Z0mBieP00Nani]

My guess is for a couple main reasons, firstly it's seen as "dirty" and "degenerate" and in some cases a link may even be made to sexually deviant behavior (rape, pedophilia, and so on) and the consumption of porn (which to some extent I can see as it can desensitize you to certain ideas in the quest to get a bigger better orgasm, I would say I'm definitely more perverse now than I was before I started looking at porn), and secondly (and probably the biggest reason is) it is often blamed for a decline in birth rates, of course we can't blame the actual cause, which is feminism, no no, we have to go and blame something else but I have seen videos on YouTube and at least one article online where feminists admit (with documented proof) that "empowering women" lowers the birth rate. At least I would be willing to bet that is the actual reason behind it, though I would be surprised if that was admitted to publicly, but I'm sure that if you looked as SK's birth rate now as opposed to even 20 years ago you would be seeing a steady decline and in a lot of cases the birth rate will be what is called "below replacement level".

 

Anyway, just my two cents.

[GrimReaper]

10 hours ago, s.kirmish said:

 

It also happens when society isn't is really falling apart, but I accept the general point. "For the children" or "anti-this&thatEvil" can sell whatever intrusion or agenda you want to push.

This only applies when they actually do push or hide something however. Maybe also as a buildup for a personal 'hardliner' portfolio proof.

 

Even taking those out, the movement still seems broader than that. Subtract religion and other classical conservatism, subtract personal gain and diversion moves, and there seems to still be a remainder of interests, that I have honestly no idea where it comes from, and where their motives or reasoning lies. (this is a claim, obviously)

Is it just shame? Or does becoming old do something to your view on this and then they become active counters? Would that just be envy, or is that real wisdom? (considering the markup of the players pushing it, I am inclined to doubt it)

Is it just another incarnation of typical anti-science people that conclude simple-mindedly "just ban bad". Like 'porn has rape, therefore porn causes rape, therefore ban all porn'.

This proclaims at least good intentions, but then there is the authoritarian side's push again, where I just can't think of a reasonable point.

It's ideologues hijacking societal issues to push for their goal. If you look at South Korea, they have a massive problem with suicide, work ethics, i.e. work until you fall over, which starts as soon as kids enter school, declining birth rates and rigid social norms. It's no wonder people withdraw from society and use recreational activities as a substitute. The ban on porn is a bandaid on the symptoms while ignoring the root of the problem. However, people tend to vote authoritarians into power during difficult times because they can at least sell you the illusion that they have it all figured out.

 

tl;dr: Ideology is one hell of a drug.

[Guest]

I think population as a whole uses deductive reasoning, because most people (99.99%) can consume p◙rn without any issues or becoming predators they reason its a non issue. It has no negative impact and its use is massively widespread (just not always openly discussed) 

 

Tyrannical governments pretend they are puritan in nature and roll out inductive reasoning... for example this person watched p◙rn; then went onto commit a string of assaults. Therefore, all people that watch p◙rn are ticking time bombs and WILL go onto harm others so it must be banned.

 

Clearly that's silly but its rare people actually will defend peoples rights to FAP. It takes bravery and lets face it this isn't a hill many want to die on.

 

Why do governments do it? I think its moral grandstanding, they can virtue signal to various groups, claim to protecting the nation. The only thing the opposition can do is agree with them... can you imagine being the other political party and defend porn? id vote for them lol ??