Devious Followers - Continued

[Lupine00]

3 hours ago, Darkwing241 said:

and then just give a real big cushion of time to equip the items

This was easier said than done, but actually not that hard. I should just have kludged the timer in the enslavement routine.

3 hours ago, valcon767 said:

been a good while since i hit max or enslavement debt, but IIRC Enslavement Debt Threshold is the point at which your DF enslaves you due to not getting paid,

where the Max Debt Allowed is the point that your DF sells you due to having to much debt.

This is all backwards in the UI - there should never have been a "max debt" label, as it's confusing.

 

It's clarified in 2.12 anyway.

I still need to sort out Chaos mode for that. I'll put out an alpha when that's done and work on the spanking while people try out the costing and MCM changes.

 

I thought of some enhancements to Chaos mode, so you can use it to achieve different kinds out outcome.

[Lupine00]

4 hours ago, slvsaris said:

Since the threshold says it is the debt at which the player will be discarded if enslaved, it would seem that the description is backwards?  Or am I missing something?

To clarify. Max debt must be bigger than enslavement debt.

 

Here is the sequence:

 

Debt > enslavement debt => player gets enslaved 

 

Debt > max debt => enslaved player is discarded in a pit of darkness and given bounties in several holds - it's the failsafe for spiraling enslavement debt

 

If enslavement debt > max debt, then you would be discarded in the pit before you're enslaved and you'd never be enslaved.

 

If enslaved from SS, your debt is set to the Price of freedom.

[slvsaris]

7 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

To clarify. Max debt must be bigger than enslavement debt.

 

Here is the sequence:

 

Debt > enslavement debt => player gets enslaved 

 

Debt > max debt => enslaved player is discarded in a pit of darkness and given bounties in several holds - it's the failsafe for spiraling enslavement debt

 

If enslavement debt > max debt, then you would be discarded in the pit before you're enslaved and you'd never be enslaved.

 

If enslaved from SS, your debt is set to the Price of freedom.

Thank you for clarifying.

[Kharadin]

On 5/16/2020 at 9:06 AM, Lupine00 said:

It depends on what punishments can be invented: spanking, whipping, staying up all night praying, belted for a day?, drink something, have to apologize to people you meet, etc.

It wouldn't be as if every sin had unique punishments.

Confession deal sounds amazing (but maybe time-consuming to implement in such detail?.. And detail is what makes it so amazing in the first place. I have absolutely no clue how resource-consuming it would actually be though ). I was thinking on what kinds of punishments could be applied for sinning, and maintaining a fast sprang to mind (well, actually it didn't, it evolved :D). It could be just an obligation to not eat and/or drink for a day, or it could be a more severe (with RND/iNeed or whatever) kind of thing where character is given a potion that makes him/her hungry and/or thirsty, and PC still needs to maintain fast for a day.

 

Making character go on some kind of a pilgrimage to a random temple of the Divine(s) (when PC has low willpower) might also make sense in such (pseudo-)religious/moralist context. However, that is certainly not a deal and even if it could be included in the mod, it would be some kind of game, maybe (I'm practically non-acquinted with that aspect of the mod)? Some sotrs of stages could be introduced in that, like in a deal, tied to the time elapsed since the "game" started. But probably not a feature for DF.

[Hex Bolt]

I like the concept of forced confessions, especially false ones.  It's all just discussion now with nothing defined, but there's a risk in overuse of terms like "sin", only because of its strong religious/moral connotations.  (I'm not saying the religion is bad, not at all, just that a religious focus is too limiting.)

 

While there is a fetish for being punished by a priest or nun and praying all night, that's a niche thing.  It shouldn't be that limited.  A devious follower's aim is undermining confidence through humiliation and shame.  That can be religious shame, but it need not be.  A narrow focus on sin and prayer misses out on other things.  Some of my characters are downright devout, but others are amoral and could care less about divine commandments and "sinning" just wouldn't apply.  But weakness and personal failings would.  

 

Confessions can be widely encompassing with terms like fault, failing, misdeed, shortcoming, or simply being "bad" or "naughty".  If you're made to confess to masturbation, the shame is personal weakness (and social taboo).  The character might also feel religious shame -- or not.  DFs might be religious, but I tend to view them as non-religious with generally low morals.  Some might enjoy piety play, taking on the role of a priest or nun (or deity), but again that's a specific fetish that might not appeal to most devious followers.  It can work, but it's focused on just one aspect and can feel off for many characters.  Would a DF be more gratified by making the PC pray for hours, or spending that time apologizing for being weak and worthless by giving the DF a shoulder massage, cleaning her gear, or mending & ironing her clothes?  Just something to ponder as ideas develop for confessions, their overall feel, and what would be fun and interesting.

[Kharadin]

8 hours ago, HexBolt8 said:

It's all just discussion now with nothing defined, but there's a risk in overuse of terms like "sin", only because of its strong religious/moral connotations.  (I'm not saying the religion is bad, not at all, just that a religious focus is too limiting.)

 That is true. I certainly got carried away by connotations of words - and I suspect that Lupine got too, just a little bit, judging by the "praying all night" bit. It seems good that this risk was pointed out - it is indeed very limiting. An awful lot of thoughts might have gone into overly specialized kind of deal, potentially resulting in difficulties with stirring the concept in a more universal direction and/or potentially scrapping it entirely with words "Oops, too much focus on religion while most DFs probably don't give a damn, too narrow focus for DF personality". I guess, to quote one writer, a beginning truely is the time for taking the most delicate care that the balances are correct. ?(that is, implying that whole confession concept could be a feature one day, otherwise there's no beginning to speak of)

I could just simply smash the like button, but wanted to back Hexbolt's voice more obviously. Sorry for kinda flooding with un-constructive post ?

[Lupine00]

3 hours ago, Kharadin said:

I certainly got carried away by connotations of words

We can hardly judge problems in dialog that doesn't exist. Or rather the problems are a little more than a narrow fetish.

 

I never for a moment supposed the follower (or the PC) necessarily cared at all about religion; it's just a stick for the follower to beat the PC down with.

That the follower doesn't care, and the PC has only a passing understanding of the topic makes it even more unjust. Sort of the point.

[slicksly]

To expand a bit about the confession deals - how about framing it as a vow of X given to the DF as a deal? Where the DF would check occationally on the PC wether or not they're following what was agreed upon through confessions. The vow could be anything mechanically registerable from Skyrim which would also fit into some sort of behavioural / moral context; vow of purity (no sex before marriage, and only to married NPC), vow of silence (no shouts, no interaction with NPCs), vow of peace (no dealing physical or magical damage to anyone), and so on. As for vow duration, I'm thinking default deal time times 2 or something, as it's typically less of a hindrance until punishments are meted out, with the typical buyout conditions and prices. Punishment would be singular for every vow, however maybe duration before lowest buyout timer would reset every time the character confessed to have broken it (or DF decided character was lying)? 

 

Progression of vow (deal) ranks would be pretty much like outlined earlier in this thread. First rank of vow, confessing to having transgressed would cause a loss in Willpower, while lying about transgressing would result in a loss of will. Truthfully stating you've not transgressed wouldn't give any more penalties than the vow itself does. Second rank, in addition, would cause the DF to enable vow-themed punishments upon the player confessing to sins; gag for vow of silence, chastity belt for vow of purity, armbinder for vow of pacifism, and so on. Lying on confessions would still be an option, but could come with a greater Willpower loss. Third rank, in addition, would have the DF at times ignoring truthful confessions of unbroken vows, and still hand out the punishment stating that "You were probably thinking about it" or "You thought you could hide it from me" or somesuch.

 

I'm thinking there'd be a natural escalation of vow rank every X vows you take. So for instance, first two vows would be regular, then the next two would upgrade all deal consequences to second rank, then from the 5th vow and onward, the third rank of penalties would apply for all. You could then take a vow or two as an "easy way" out of some debt which would eat at your Willpower. Or, if every vow is sufficiently punishing on its own, every new vow would escalate the punishment level to the next tier. 

>Is there any other way I can pay off my debt?
>>You're a cutie-pie, blah blah, we can work something out (paraphrased)
>>>I'd like to take a deal (normal)
>>>I'd like to make a vow (new one)

>>>> Well, what kind of vow would you like to make?
>>>>> I vow to (...)

 

With the PC stating the vow, it gives a greater feeling of agency for the player, however it could also work fine through the deal system, such as

> I'd like to make a deal 

>> Then I want you to make a vow of chastity

Deal ideas popping into my head right now, are

 

- Vow of chastity (I vow to stay chaste) - breach anal or oral sex - punishment chastity belt

- Vow of control (I vow to stay in control of my desires) - breach arousal past 90) - punishment shockplugged chastity belt

- Vow of fasting (I vow to abstain from food and drink) - breach food, drink, potions, ingredients - punishment gag

- Vow of peace (I vow to stay peaceful) - breach doing physical or magical damage - punishment armbinder / yoke

- Vow of purity (I vow to stay pure until married) - breach sexlab act (solo or with partner) before married, or outside of marriage - punishment chastity belt

- Vow of silence (I vow to stay silent) - breach shouts or interacting with NPCs - punishment gag

 

And so on and so forth. The list could be endless, but I suppose the best choice would be to narrow it down to a handful of vows with multiple device punishments to make the consequence seem more intimidating. Different vows having overlapping breaches might also be fun, as your confession could trigger multiple punishments at once.

[Lupine00]

Personally, the appeal of the confessions is that the follower doesn't care what you confess.

 

They just want you to beat yourself up over failures, and it doesn't matter to them what you fail at as long as it's something.

If you aren't failing, then they gaslight and switch the objectives, so you are always wrong.

 

This allows the follower to pick on any of the things that the confessions support to accuse you of if you don't confess to something.

But the PC is given a broad choice of confessions, and it's up to them whether they take it in a religious, or sexually-repressive direction, or simply in terms of the basic deal they have with the follower to pay them.

 

e.g.

I masturbated.

I ate too much.

I talked too much.

I didn't pay my precious follower.

I disrespected a shrine.

 

Or whatever. There are more elaborate examples in the earlier post.

 

The "vows" are different approach to that, and come back around to devices again.

The problem with that is it makes it quite sensitive to what other deals you have.

They make a nice story, but the PC can't be punished with a gag if they are already wearing one - though you might succeed at fasting in that case.

 

But the follower doesn't want the PC to succeed, they want the PC to fail.

The confessions are less a vehicle to add devices, and more a vehicle to impact self-confidence - they are a direct attack on willpower.

 

Their separation from devices is what makes them a practical deal, as there are already multiple deals for most device slots.

 

 

To match the severity of other deals, at level one, they have little real impact. The follower gets to berate you, and you might lose a little resistance.

At level two, they start to involve penances, but they should be more like events than ongoing problems.

At level three, the follower starts to list your failures for you, and they get increasingly detached from reality.

But argue with the follower, and you'll end up guilty of being a liar too ... even if you're not ... that's the core of it.

 

The PC is told she's a slut. She doesn't have to have any sex to be told this. Her clothes, armor, words, places visited, NPCs talked too, or even nothing at all can be produced as the excuse for this.

 

e.g.

Today, once again, you acted like a slut. In fact, you're getting worse. Do you ever think about anything except what's between your legs? Tell me how you disgust yourself!

What did you do? Follower doesn't explain. Doesn't matter. Maybe you can argue...

 

But honestly, I didn't do anything slutty ... today. (high willpower response)

> Just look at how you're dressed? And you spent all night fingering yourself. That's why you're so tired.

 

The PC probably can't win this argument, and at best can come out even.

 

 

At least that's the idea I have now, and it's pretty distant from any implementation.

The "vows" do have a distinctly religious flavor, given the connotations of the word "vow", but the weakest spot in them is punishments that linger and block or conflict with other deals.

[Hex Bolt]

Hopefully confessions will become a reality someday, as time permits.  It would be especially effective if the follower makes up evidence to instill more doubt.  "Do you know what the women in town are saying about you?"  "Did you know that the guards have a special nickname for you?"  "I think the merchants are cheating you because you're such a [something].  You didn't notice?"  "Just the other day, someone asked me why you're a [something].  I'm embarrassed for you."

[unmog]

Anyone have corrected cbbe files for the whore armor by chance? They use unp for me

[Reesewow]

51 minutes ago, unmog said:

Anyone have corrected cbbe files for the whore armor by chance? They use unp for me

AFAIK the default whore armors are just a selection of Nise's bikini armors - easy enough to find CBBE versions if you want to use them specifically.

 

That being said - there is are folders for custom whore armor.  You can just drop any armor meshs you want in that folder, rename the files to replace the existing files, and then select "use custom whore armor" in the MCM menu.

[unmog]

yea Ive tried that and it went invisible for some reason

[Reesewow]

2 minutes ago, unmog said:

yea Ive tried that and it went invisible for some reason

Make 100% sure you have the correct spellings of the mesh files you replaced, and the meshs you are using are chest armor.  Invisible likely means the game can't find the mesh file, which probably means it is misspelled.

[Harry Smackmeat]

I've disabled boots and gloves but it's still forcing them on me.

[Aldid]

1 hour ago, Harry Smackmeat said:

I've disabled boots and gloves but it's still forcing them on me.

Just to clarify, have you disabled boots and gloves both on modular deals and by setting the maximum stage for the bondage deal to 1?

[Lupine00]

Slavery has boots and gloves you can't disable. It doesn't use whore armor though, and technically the gloves are mittens.

 

Make sure you build your DF items in Bodyslide; they have their own group.

[unmog]

12 hours ago, Reesewow said:

Make 100% sure you have the correct spellings of the mesh files you replaced, and the meshs you are using are chest armor.  Invisible likely means the game can't find the mesh file, which probably means it is misspelled.

Well specifically, can you give me the file location and the name they have to be just to make sure?

[Lupine00]

26 minutes ago, unmog said:

Well specifically, can you give me the file location and the name they have to be just to make sure?

Here: https://www.loverslab.com/topic/130527-devious-followers-continued/

 

 

There are instructions in the section under the friendly green heading "How to Install Custom Whore Armor"

... in that section ... in a spoiler box it says:

 

 

These are the locations you need to put your custom whore armors in:

 

For females:

armor\DFCustWhoreArmor\Heavy\heavy_F_0.nif

armor\DFCustWhoreArmor\Heavy\heavy_F_1.nif

armor\DFCustWhoreArmor\Light\light_F_0.nif

armor\DFCustWhoreArmor\Light\light_F_1.nif

armor\DFCustWhoreArmor\Mage\Mage_F_0.nif

armor\DFCustWhoreArmor\Mage\Mage_F_1.nif

 

For males:

armor\DFCustWhoreArmor\Heavy\heavy_M_0.nif

armor\DFCustWhoreArmor\Heavy\heavy_M_1.nif

armor\DFCustWhoreArmor\Light\light_M_0.nif

armor\DFCustWhoreArmor\Light\light_M_1.nif

armor\DFCustWhoreArmor\Mage\Mage_M_0.nif

armor\DFCustWhoreArmor\Mage\Mage_M_1.nif

[Hex Bolt]

I have a feature suggestion to change the PC's idle animation based on willpower.  I'm not sure if it's feasible or what effort would be involved.

 

I use FNIS PCEA2 for unique animations for the PC, and I got the idea when I was choosing a few idles for a new game.  They range from a bold stance with feet apart and shoulders back, to feet together with toes turned in and shoulders a little hunched.  I'm going to swap between them depending on my how my character is doing, a manual process of exiting the game and switching files.  That will work, but since DFC already changes PC animations for crawling, possibly the standing idle can be set for various stages of willpower so it would change dynamically in the game.  

 

DFC would just provide the framework; players would supply any new idles (there are a fair number of female idles out there).  Like the custom whore armor, if the animation files were in specific folders and initially filled with the vanilla idle, players could fill them with their own idles if they wish. 

 

A complication is that some devices (yoke, hobble skirt, pet suit, pony gear) also set the idle animation.  It could be tricky to know when it's safe to set the animation.

[Lupine00]

1 hour ago, HexBolt8 said:

It could be tricky to know when it's safe to set the animation.

Inappropriate animation reset is definitely a problem.

 

I don't know enough about detecting existing overrides to say if this is fixable or not, but I suspect it is. I just need to look at how that's been handled elsewhere.

 

Are you saying the necessary animations exist, or is that also an obstacle?

[Hex Bolt]

22 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

Are you saying the necessary animations exist, or is that also an obstacle?

They exist.  These are the various "sexy", "pretty", "cute", or "better" female idles on Nexus and other sites.  They're replacement animation files for the standing still idle, replacing Skyrim's mt_idle.hkx.   Many of them are ridiculous, but some are heroic or confident, while others look more timid.

 

Since they're assets of other mods, players would have to supply them and place them in the right custom idle folder (or better, in a single custom idle folder but with different names), very similar to how the mod handles custom whore armor.  The default provided by this mod would just be several copies of Skyrim's mt_idle.hkx with willpower-level names (max, high, medium, low, zero, something like that).  

 

I know I have at least 3 different idles that I've collected which could visually express the character's confidence level, from confident, to average, to timid self-doubt.  Other players might also have a few idles that they'd like to use in this way.

[Hex Bolt]

Here's an example of a collection of replacement female idles.  The author restricts redistributing the idles, so you wouldn't be able to bundle them with this mod, but players of course can pick the ones they like and drop in a custom idle folder and name them appropriately.  Just one example.

[Darkwing241]

1 hour ago, HexBolt8 said:

I have a feature suggestion to change the PC's idle animation based on willpower.  I'm not sure if it's feasible or what effort would be involved.

I love the idea, on my recent play through one of my biggest 'wants' was for more immersive feedback on follower mood (boredom/lives) and on pc willpower.  An idle animation may be the perfect way to give that feedback. 

 

FNIS Sexy Move has a 1-9 "just how sexy you want your walk" scale that seems like it could be useful somewhere as well.

[blarghxxx]

I'm not normally one to do  this but there was so much interesting discussion going on around my original post that I think it might have been overlooked. So here's a shameful self-quote:

On 5/17/2020 at 12:47 AM, blarghxxx said:

Regarding the potion quest: I started a new game and ran into the same issue described a few pages back. The  effect triggers, my character gets staggered and undressed but I can just redress and go about my ways normally. There's no effects listed in the magic effects tab. Even adding the perk via console doesn't seem to do anything. Am I misunderstanding how this is supposed to work?

Also a related question: how does the forced version get triggered?

:edit: Adding load order  for reference below:
 

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HearthFires.esm
Dragonborn.esm
Unofficial Skyrim Legendary Edition Patch.esp
Schlongs of Skyrim - Core.esm
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dcc-soulgem-oven-000.esm
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EstrusChaurus.esp
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SexLab Strapon.esp
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No Killmoves, No Killcams, No Killbites.esp
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DW.esp
RND_Dawnguard-Patch.esp
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Deviously Cursed Loot.esp
SimpleSlavery.esp
TimingIsEverything.esp
DeviousFollowers.esp
SexLab_Dialogues.esp
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Alternate Start - Live Another Life.esp
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