Devious Followers - Continued

[HexBolt8]

Yeah, things are rarely as simple as they seem.  If you ever get around to the up-front trickery, that is a nice conversation flow that you wrote.  I'll just use the debug button and pretend that the introductions went that way.  What harm can come from agreeing to pay my debts?

 

On a different topic, there was some talk a while back about sleeping arrangements.  I was thinking about that.  There's potential for a deal of the non-devious kind (no devices).  Stage one as usual is hardly bothersome:  you must sleep naked.  Maybe you even enjoy it.  But you must ask permission to dress in the morning.  It's always granted, but that's a reduction to resistance, starting your day off wrong.  For stage two, the DF gets the first choice of bed, and you're not invited.  And you still sleep naked from stage one.  In inns, you get a bedroll (SLS does this with the Simply Knock scenario).  In dwellings, we'll just assume that you get the smaller bed.  In the wilderness, you're assumed to have the ratty thin bedroll.  Regardless, you start the day with a sizable resistance loss.  At stage three, you sleep in a cage.  Spawn a cage, similar to placing the bedroll for stage two.  The existing models look big & heavy, but assume that they're like modern dog cages that can be quickly assembled.  Innkeepers always have a few handy, but there's a rental fee.  Guess who pays for the cage?  We'll just add it to your debt; no need for additional innkeeper dialog.  Start the day losing a full point of willpower for sleeping naked in a cage like an animal.

[Lupine00]

33 minutes ago, HexBolt8 said:

 

On a different topic, there was some talk a while back about sleeping arrangements.  I was thinking about that.  There's potential for a deal of the non-devious kind (no devices).  Stage one as usual is hardly bothersome:  you must sleep naked.  Maybe you even enjoy it.  But you must ask permission to dress in the morning.  It's always granted, but that's a reduction to resistance, starting your day off wrong.  For stage two, the DF gets the first choice of bed, and you're not invited.  And you still sleep naked from stage one.  In inns, you get a bedroll (SLS does this with the Simply Knock scenario).  In dwellings, we'll just assume that you get the smaller bed.  In the wilderness, you're assumed to have the ratty thin bedroll.  Regardless, you start the day with a sizable resistance loss.  At stage three, you sleep in a cage.  Spawn a cage, similar to placing the bedroll for stage two.  The existing models look big & heavy, but assume that they're like modern dog cages that can be quickly assembled.  Innkeepers always have a few handy, but there's a rental fee.  Guess who pays for the cage?  We'll just add it to your debt; no need for additional innkeeper dialog.  Start the day losing a full point of willpower for sleeping naked in a cage like an animal.

It sounds fun. Maybe the curve is a little steep? Maybe that doesn't matter.

 

It's not a quick and easy TODO though, as it requires skilling-up on bed-management. Monoman has written load of bed stuff and knows all the different bed objects and what mods they're in and what's in vanilla and maybe has worked out ways to use them that are efficient. It doesn't sound overly hard, but I've never tried to spawn beds or bedrolls. That stops it being the sort of quick easy win for me that would let it jump the queue.

 

Maybe worth thinking about it a bit more?

 

Could/should it be a slavery feature instead of a deal? Or could it be something linked to willpower?

 

 

I'm always trying to find things that allow low-willpower to have impact even if you don't have a DF.

 

If inn-keepers were inclined to rip you off with the worst bed in the place if your willpower is lacking, that's another way to use it.

And if you show up in devices and with low willpower, maybe they order you into the cage and ... low willpower ... you agree, albeit reluctantly.

What happens after that? Maybe more than sleeping? Maybe only on certain occasions?

 

I like the bit in Laura's shop where you have to go in the cage to remove the belt ... you think "maybe something interesting will happen one time?"

[Aldid]

9 hours ago, HexBolt8 said:

Yeah, things are rarely as simple as they seem.  If you ever get around to the up-front trickery, that is a nice conversation flow that you wrote.  I'll just use the debug button and pretend that the introductions went that way.  What harm can come from agreeing to pay my debts?

 

On a different topic, there was some talk a while back about sleeping arrangements.  I was thinking about that.  There's potential for a deal of the non-devious kind (no devices).  Stage one as usual is hardly bothersome:  you must sleep naked.  Maybe you even enjoy it.  But you must ask permission to dress in the morning.  It's always granted, but that's a reduction to resistance, starting your day off wrong.  For stage two, the DF gets the first choice of bed, and you're not invited.  And you still sleep naked from stage one.  In inns, you get a bedroll (SLS does this with the Simply Knock scenario).  In dwellings, we'll just assume that you get the smaller bed.  In the wilderness, you're assumed to have the ratty thin bedroll.  Regardless, you start the day with a sizable resistance loss.  At stage three, you sleep in a cage.  Spawn a cage, similar to placing the bedroll for stage two.  The existing models look big & heavy, but assume that they're like modern dog cages that can be quickly assembled.  Innkeepers always have a few handy, but there's a rental fee.  Guess who pays for the cage?  We'll just add it to your debt; no need for additional innkeeper dialog.  Start the day losing a full point of willpower for sleeping naked in a cage like an animal.

I thought the final stages of the deal would result in the DF simply refusing to let you redress for a while (either for a set period of time or until you enter a new area), thus forcing you to try to slip out of the inn naked without being noticed too much. At the final stage there might be a chance to not allow you to redress until you've entered a dungeon, forcing you to roam the wilderness defenseless. 

[Darkwing241]

7 hours ago, Aldid said:

I thought the final stages of the deal would result in the DF simply refusing to let you redress for a while

I think this is the more interesting part of the deal, and potentially the easier to implement.  Deploying cages and stuff is pretty extreme.  I tend to prefer deals that aren't wildly over the top slave-ish.

 

What if instead of leaning into the "beds" it was more of a nightly ablutions deal?  Focusing around the idea of breaking down the PC's will and reconditioning her for a more sexualized role.  

 

A while back there was a discussion about a spanking deal.  I pitched an idea that went front nightly prayers to confessions and spankings and finally to nightly confessions of manufactured sins.  The DF uses the rituals to convince the PC that she is not in fact a capable adventurer, but instead a demure schoolgirl (the nightly prayers) who is consumed by lustful thoughts (repeat something about yourself often enough and start to believe it).

 

What other sexualized archetypes character could be done through a nightly ritual deal.  Fitness Bunny? Fashionista Bimbo?  It's tough to suggest anything that isn't centered around physical body changes, or super niche fetish-y like ageplay and stuff.

 

Compulsive masturbation

 

Stage 1: Sleep Naked

Stage 2: Nightly fun time (with hopes of SLA sex addiction keeping the PC horny all the time?)

Stage 3: Given an arousal booster? (potion? porn? something else?)

stage 3 alt: Performance? do it in public?

stage 3 alt: The DF starts giving gifts to the PC.  Enchanted plugs and dildos with various effects. Maybe they draw attention? maybe they are just inventory loadstones? maybe they release pheromones? maybe they are just

 

 

 

[HexBolt8]

This is very good discussion.  The more ideas and viewpoints that get expressed, the more the material the author has to choose from for ideas for possible future deals.

 

Players have different preferences, and subjective views can vary widely, so in the end the author will have to synthesize those ideas into something he thinks makes the best sense for the mod, if new deals are ever added.  One example is this:

1 hour ago, Darkwing241 said:

Deploying cages and stuff is pretty extreme.  I tend to prefer deals that aren't wildly over the top slave-ish.

There's nothing wrong with this comment.  It's an opinion.  I only single it out to reflect on those subjective differences.  I agree that deploying cages is "extreme" in terms of implementation.  I'd love a better way of handling it.  It's a weak component of my suggestion for sleep deals.  Hopefully something better will come out of it.  But I don't think it's particularly harsh for a stage 3 deal, and to me it's less slave-ish than the forced whoring deal (a deal that seems to be pretty popular with players). 

 

Who's more a slave, the one sleeping in a cage but otherwise fairly comfortable, or the one being repeatedly violated sexually for the follower's profit?  I'm not criticizing the whore deal, just drawing comparisons.  To me, sleeping in a cage isn't that different from a spending a night in jail, except that no guards will be molesting the girl.  But forced sex with strangers?  For someone else's profit?  Today we call that sexual slavery.  We can't apply today's standards to a fantasy world with medieval technology of course, but it's something to think about if we're looking at which deals have slave content. 

 

What I'd hoped for from a sleep deal is to avoid devices, since the existing deals already use most of them, yet still tie in to the mod's mechanics -- in this case, with reductions to resistance or willpower.  I like @Darkwing241's thoughts on nightly confessions, particularly when the PC has to confess to things that aren't true.  It's a great way to undermine the PC's confidence.  It could fit with a sleep-type deal, but personally I think it would do better standing on its own.  Lupine00 had mentioned introductory deals.  Nightly confessions and/or spankings would help establish the nature of the relationship and undermine the PC, without needing a device slot.

 

These posts are good.  Please keep the ideas and differing opinions coming, especially if you have an opposing perspective to share.  If only a few people post their thoughts and we all agree, that doesn't go far.

[Lupine00]

Speaking of cages, they are a bit of a pain in terms of fitting them inside inns in a way that doesn't conflict with RRR or some other mod.

Lozeak put some gibbets outside for Devious World that didn't seem to conflict, but I notice that BFW and Hydra's both do this too, so there might be conflicts if you have both of those.

Spoiler

Traditionally though, that sort of cage was used to kill people by dehydration and exposure, or for bodies that were already dead...

The Skyrim approach is more like something from a risque stage-show or high-end nightclub.

 

Another way is to put the cage in a basement/cellar with trapdoor access or something like that, but it feels a bit awkward. That some inns lack cellars seems an oversight to me, but I admit that drifts towards questions about realism and whether buildings of the period would be anything like the ones shown in Skyrim - which I suspect they would not. 

There's no realism in Skyrim, and that's why I don't want to be troubled by it. But I do find those oft-seen "magic trapdoors" a bit ... cheap.

 

The other "problem" (besides finding a place to put them, then making all those edits) with cages is that they are a gateway to more functionality. In one way, not a problem, but a benefit. 

 

For a cage to be interesting, there should be stuff going on outside the cage that involves you as a passive observer, or stuff that impacts directly on you. Just sitting in the cage for a bit is interesting for a short while, if not repeated too often, but it quickly wears thin.

 

Lozeak's DW approach was simply to make the cage work as a bed, so you didn't spend time in it. It was an atmosphere/mood thing rather than a place you would end up stuck. In that case, cages in inns (or outside inns, or underneath inns) are not terribly "gameplay extreme" because they aren't doing anything to your gameplay, they are just a way of getting a bed.

 

Devious Regulations, and Pet Project both make extensive use of scenes where the player is stuck but ... things ... are happening around them. Sometimes they might become involved.

 

The ideal is probably some scenario where you are in the cage and you treat it like prison. Either sit there and wait, or use the bedroll. If you sleep, you wake up hours later and are released soon enough. If you don't, maybe something interesting happens after a while ... but it's up to you to wait for that.

[Lupine00]

With regard to @Darkwing241 and @HexBolt8 differing approach...

 

I think that nakedness is a different feature to cages. DF has mixed stuff up in deals a bit sometimes - the whore deal is as much about plugs as prostitution - but there's enough material to do each one in more detail as a deal by itself. Sleep naked is already something that some mods may be encouraging or enforcing, so it might be a bit of a "free deal".

 

Several deals have nakedness requirements in them, at times. A deal that works as described in the preceding posts makes perfect sense by itself, but would tend to conflict with other deals unless they were simply allowed to overlap.

 

Cages aren't used at all now, so there would be no conflicts.

 

The confessions deal is particularly good, as it has a good RP/atmosphere component, and some game consequences. It's an area where I'm a bit worried about under-delivering in terms of getting it right.

 

Masturbation as a deal... Is it about denial or masturbation? Masturbation isn't harmful to resistance normally, for it to be harmful I think it needs something like the confession deal to make it into moral weakness. Conflicts somewhat with the denial damage if belted by the follower.

 

This is the sort of place we find the basic deals system just doesn't work.

Something more complicated is needed to tie stage A of deal X to stage B of deal Y in a way that makes sense immersively and mechanically, and without an impossible list of special cases.

 

The deals that are in the roadmap are there because:

• they add a fun link to other mods
• they have little conflict with other deals
• they are (hopefully) not hard to implement
• they stand by themselves and don't invite looking at how they connect to other behaviors ... much

 

The idea is "add these first because DF can fit them in without any challenging problems".

Even then, I think it's a "maybe" they'll all get in before year end, because I don't want to spend all my free-time modding Skyrim.

 

 

But when we start to look at ideas that bind one deal to another, maybe even more deals aren't the best way to deliver that content?

 

We also have willpower, willpower-fatigue, and boredom to play with.

 

I think it makes sense to have a whole tree of boredom related dialogues, with boredom-reducing acts in them.

That will likely begin as just one act, and grow.

 

There's also the possibility that something like confessions deal could link to willpower-fatigue.

 

Confessions seems like it definitely IS a deal, there's an explicit agreement there:

 

Stage 1

Follower says:

"You're turning into a bit of a slut. To build up your morality, you need to confess at least one sin to me before you sleep."

If the PC sleeps without confessing - punishment debt is applied.

Confession is opened up voluntarily by the player.

It's the player's responsibility to remember to confess.

 

Some possible confessions:

 

"I want to confess a sin."

>> "Good girl. What dirty, slutty thing have you done this time?"

>> "Ah you're learning. What affront to the gods have you committed today?"

>> "It's good to see you make an effort, even if you don't succeed. What did you do this time?"

>> "I know you can't really help yourself, but admitting your faults is the first step."

 

"I gave myself sexual pleasure, like a filthy sex addict."

"I had sex."

"I whored myself."

"I had sex with a beast."

"I had sex with an abomination." (draugr, tentacles, etc)

"I had sex with a <same sex>."

"I walked around naked in public."

"I walked around dressed like a slut in public."

"I crawled about on all fours like a beast in public."

"I went about in public, wearing slave bindings."

"I went about in public wearing bondage toys."

"I had orgasms in public."

"I didn't pay my partner <his|her> share in time."

"I broke the rules of deals I made with my partner."

"I have nothing to confess."

"I lied about having nothing to confess."

"I told people I was a slut."

"I swallowed cum."

"I prayed at a divine shrine while naked."

"I do nothing but think about sex."

"I thought about cheating my partner."

"I ate too much food."

"I got drunk."

"I used drugs."

... etc

 

From a development perspective, these acts now need to be identified or tracked.

 

While the PC could reasonably confess to things they didn't do, if the game doesn't know the difference between what you are falsely confessing vs what you really did, it can't make the experience interesting.

 

Confessing things you actually did should probably hurt resistance less than confessing to things you didn't do.

It should also lead to the follower saying different things.

 

Saying you have no sins to confess should have a willpower-based chance to work. (Shouldn't ever be certain).

If it succeeds, you don't lose any resistance.

If it fails, the follower calls you a liar, damages your resistance, and refuses to accept the confession.

Further attempts will not have "nothing to confess" as an option until the next confession is required.

 

As we can see, this is not a small or trivial feature. If I was a certain kind of developer, I'd put in a list of six things that might work and not track whether you did them or not, and that would be the entire dialogue mechanic. That sort of thing feels as disappointing as NPCs just randomly sticking devious devices on you because (a) no reason at all, (b) you already have a device. It would be the gameplay of 2012.

 

 

Stage 2

Punishments are now assigned for sins:

e.g.

"I had orgasms in public."

> (you didn't) "I suspected as much. You are an unrepentant slut. As well as your punishment, if you can't get through tomorrow without an orgasm I'm going to extend your confessions by a day."

> (you did) "And didn't we all know about it too? Such a racket, and you stink of sex. I'm surprised you aren't attacked by animals. {Use this to cover the stench. (hands bottle)}"

 

In the case of the lie, you lose 20 resistance, then the follower administers a spanking. If you orgasm before the next sleep, the deal is extended.

 

In the case of the truth, you lose 5 resistance, then the follower administers a whipping. The whipping leaves a debuff that fades over 24 hours.

If you don't use the bottle you receive a punishment debt.

 

The bottle part is added to the same confession at Stage 3.

If you use the bottle, any animal you come within range of will try to have sex with you. You can push them away or accept.

If it's multiple animals at once, you are overwhelmed and raped.

 

It's just an example of how a seemingly simple deal has the potential to enable a mass of features. Maybe not this many for every item.

 

It depends on what punishments can be invented: spanking, whipping, staying up all night praying, belted for a day?, drink something, have to apologize to people you meet, etc.

It wouldn't be as if every sin had unique punishments.

 

Stage 3

The follower tells you your sins. They are highly likely to be made up. You choose to accept or deny.

While this has resistance consequences, the reasonable assumption is willpower is probably absent at this point anyway.

Debt-based punishment/pray all night/drink something are much more likely.

 

Pray all night means you don't get any sleep but the follower gets their lives back. 

Drink something could be simply strong alcohol, or skooma, but could also be lactacid, or an arousal raising potion, or "spontaneous orgasm potion" (the orgasm - happens some time later - and may recur on several different occasions).

 

[cascen]

the gag feature doesnt works,atleast since when i have installed this mod,b4 with dcl rhe gags showed up... 

[Lupine00]

11 minutes ago, cascen said:

the gag feature doesnt works,atleast since when i have installed this mod,b4 with dcl rhe gags showed up... 

Are you saying that installed DF stopped DD gags being visible on your character?

 

Does removing DF make them reappear?

 

It seems unlikely DF would do this, as it doesn't overwrite any DD content.

DF does add a handful of DDs of its own, but gags don't need to be generated in Bodyslide, so it's probably nothing like that.

[Darkwing241]

11 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Masturbation as a deal... Is it about denial or masturbation? Masturbation isn't harmful to resistance normally, for it to be harmful I think it needs something like the confession deal to make it into moral weakness. Conflicts somewhat with the denial damage if belted by the follower.

I was thinking of the "harm" coming from arousal.  The terminology of SLA is terrible but I'm pretty sure repeated sex acts boost arousal gain (the time rate maybe?).  As a sort of of sex addiction.

 

11 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Sleep naked is already something that some mods may be encouraging or enforcing, so it might be a bit of a "free deal".

I agree, this occurred to me as well.  For the sake of argument I would say that most of those mods that enforce naked sleeping do so because they want to set up consequences for being caught naked.  Most of the 'must sleep naked' mods I've seen have the feature as a blunt instrument with no real reason for why the PC or the player would want to do it. They are "lest just pretend that's the way it is" features. 

 

I think stage 1 deals are at their best when they are things that could reasonably be believed to be non-nefarious or 'just for fun.'  A playful suggestion that a girl wear high heels, a corset, or even a revealing outfit  when going out are believable as fashion advice.  Playful banter about a girls promiscuity and calling each other a slut is something I fairly regularly see girls do .  Even getting nipple piercings is something a friend could suggest that doesn't scream "this is really to make you into a sex slave."  So I guess that's why a "sleep naked" deal resonated with me.  It straddles that line of playful/flirty/sexy really well.

11 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Some possible confessions:

This sounds amazing!

 

 

 

 

[blarghxxx]

Regarding the potion quest: I started a new game and ran into the same issue described a few pages back. The  effect triggers, my character gets staggered and undressed but I can just redress and go about my ways normally. There's no effects listed in the magic effects tab. Even adding the perk via console doesn't seem to do anything. Am I misunderstanding how this is supposed to work?

Also a related question: how does the forced version get triggered?

:edit: Adding load order  for reference below:
 

Spoiler

Skyrim.esm
Update.esm
Dawnguard.esm
HearthFires.esm
Dragonborn.esm
Unofficial Skyrim Legendary Edition Patch.esp
Schlongs of Skyrim - Core.esm
SexLab.esm
ZaZAnimationPack.esm
SexLabAroused.esm
Devious Devices - Assets.esm
Devious Devices - Integration.esm
Devious Devices - Expansion.esm
ApachiiHair.esm
dcc-soulgem-oven-000.esm
HighResTexturePack01.esp
HighResTexturePack02.esp
HighResTexturePack03.esp
Unofficial High Resolution Patch.esp
BetterQuestObjectives.esp
Auto Unequip Ammo.esp
dD-No Spinning Death Animation Merged.esp
LootandDegradation.esp
SimplyKnock.esp
RealisticNeedsandDiseases.esp
SL Survival.esp
sanguinesDebauchery.esp
SkyrimSewers.esp
SexLabSkoomaWhore.esp
BFT Ships and Carriages.esp
RaceMenu.esp
RaceMenuPlugin.esp
RaceMenuMorphsUUNP.esp
SkyUI.esp
FNIS.esp
SOSRaceMenu.esp
XPMSE.esp
AOS.esp
Schlongs of Skyrim.esp
SOS - Smurf Average Addon.esp
SOS - VectorPlexus Muscular Addon.esp
SOS - VectorPlexus Regular Addon.esp
Remodeled Armor - Vanilla Replacer - Dawnguard.esp
Remodeled Armor - Vanilla Replacer - Dragonborn.esp
Remodeled Armor - Vanilla Replacer.esp
EstrusChaurus.esp
vAutosaveManager.esp
12FemaleBrows.esp
SexLab Strapon.esp
No Empty Tag on Containers.esp
No Killmoves, No Killcams, No Killbites.esp
MasculinizedLevelLists.esp
MasculinizedLevelListsDB.esp
MasculinizedLevelListsDG.esp
DW.esp
RND_Dawnguard-Patch.esp
RND_Dragonborn-Patch.esp
zzEstrus.esp
SLSO.esp
SlaveTats.esp
UIExtensions.esp
Deviously Cursed Loot.esp
SimpleSlavery.esp
TimingIsEverything.esp
DeviousFollowers.esp
SexLab_Dialogues.esp
RND_HearthFires-Patch.esp
RND_AnimalLoot.esp
Stupid Bounty Condition Patch.esp
MF_RadiantProstitution.esp
Alternate Start - Live Another Life.esp
BetterQuestObjectives-AlternateStartPatch.esp
Deviously Cursed Loot LAL AddOn.esp
Bashed Patch, 0.esp

 

[cascen]

10 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Are you saying that installed DF stopped DD gags being visible on your character?

 

Does removing DF make them reappear?

 

It seems unlikely DF would do this, as it doesn't overwrite any DD content.

DF does add a handful of DDs of its own, but gags don't need to be generated in Bodyslide, so it's probably nothing like that.

df gag binder and gag pony yes...ovewrites dcl items and dd too

[Lupine00]

5 hours ago, cascen said:

df gag binder and gag pony yes...ovewrites dcl items and dd too

Feels a bit off, DD moved a lot of these items into its own tree.

 

In any case, just build the Bodyslide for your DF items.

If the cause is asset overwrites, that will fix it.

 

But you should build those Bodyslides anyway; you can't really skip it.

[aspirine2]

why does the guard line (where is your master ?) no longer appear ??

[Lupine00]

1 hour ago, aspirine2 said:

why does the guard line (where is your master ?) no longer appear ??

That is the start of forced follower, and it shouldn't happen unless you have very low willpower and wearing a collar or similar.

[Lupine00]

I was able to reproduce and find the cause of the follower punishing for some deals (including deals you do not have) during enslavement.

 

There shouldn't be any deal requirements during enslavement unless it's just "deal enslavement" via Simple Slavery, which is just a bunch of deals, not really enslavement at all.

 

There will be a fix in 2.12. Hopefully it will work  

It might not be 100% reliable for existing games, as in some cases I moved conditions.

It should still be better than it was, which was no checks for several quests.

 

 

As it turned out, there were a lot of conditions missing from deal policing.

 

Also, some quest-level condition checks appear to be bypassed if you run the dialog from an AI package.

 

More interesting, the Slut deal has a special slave path, only for slaves.

This contradicts the documentation that implies that all deals are negated by slavery. Slut deal isn't, instead it swaps to you being used for free.

You could also use it to get your hands unbound.

 

I've left this mechanic in for now, though I'm not yet sure it's actually firing. It needs testing out properly.

It might be a little unfair given how enslavement is supposed to work, and maybe it's just better to suspend the slut deal during slavery, just like other deals - which is easy.

 

Another "problem" deal is the Ownership deal. If the PC is in the middle of a denial scenario, and gets enslaved, what happens?

There was no handling for this at all. The PC would be stuck in the belt as a slave. This would result in a lot of sex with too much animation restriction.

The follower is always talking about how the slave's holes are free, etc.

Also, a little unfair if you happen to have that particular deal prior to enslavement, and your W&T mod is applying all that sex to just two orifices.

 

I want the follower to remove and refit the belt as enslavement is entered or left, but it might not be reliable.

[SkyAddiction]

7 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

More interesting, the Slut deal has a special slave path, only for slaves.

This contradicts the documentation that implies that all deals are negated by slavery. Slut deal isn't, instead it swaps to you being used for free.

You could also use it to get your hands unbound.

 

I've left this mechanic in for now, though I'm not yet sure it's actually firing. It needs testing out properly.

It might be a little unfair given how enslavement is supposed to work, and maybe it's just better to suspend the slut deal during slavery, just like other deals - which is easy.

 

That strikes me as intentional, though it's been a really long time since I let my PC get into that situation, so maybe it's glaringly out of place? If I have time, I'll try to force it.

 

On an unrelated note, are expected deals and the boredom limit tied to just the deal being active, or do they account for each stage as well? That's not entirely clear and as a question doesn't seem to have been asked before.

[Lupine00]

3 hours ago, SkyAddiction said:

That strikes me as intentional

Oh, it was intentional alright... At the time it was intended.

 

I suspect it was only later that the idea of slavery suspending deals was introduced.

If you're already full of deals, there isn't any "room" left to do slavery, because anything the slavery adds will conflict.

That's even more true now that you can get more deals, including deals that fill all the "gaps" left by the classic deals.

 

The idea of suspending deals during slavery makes most sense.

Not only does it give the player a bit of a chance to recover from their massive debt and crippling deals by easing back a little, but it prevents inappropriate "deal" or "seduction" type dialogs appearing.

In deal dialogs, the follower is often talking about an agreement, or about the PC secretly enjoying the situation.

Those dialogs do not fit properly with the slavery dialogs, where the text suggests that follower no longer cares what the PC thinks.

 

The dialog branch in Slut Deal that customized it for slavery is unique in that respect, and was likely a half-way house, as thinking evolved about how it should all work.

I can only guess  

 

I haven't removed it - yet - but as I mentioned, I'm not sure if it even triggers.

When dealing with the blocking dialogs and AI-driven forcegreets, there's other logic in there that can mean dialogs aren't used.

 

You probably cannot test it properly in 2.11 because there are dozens of new dialog conditions in 2.12, added to fix this very issue.

Not that information from 2.11 is useless, but it might differ. You will definitely see some other deal dialogs firing during slavery, and they are't intended ... now.

 

It is probably fairer and more consistent to shut off all of the Slut Deal dialogs during slavery, even though this clearly was not always intended.

I'm leaving them in for 2.12 and see how it plays; as noted they may not even trigger.

 

The deal enforcement dialogs are (were) particularly harsh when enslaved via SS. Suddenly get a lot of deals, and are also enslaved.

You probably do not have the deal items, and even if you do, you can't fit them before you start being punished.

At least now you can look in one place to see what deals you have.

Previous to 2.11, it took so long to figure out what your deals were that you'd be pushing "discard" debt levels before you even figured out what the problem was.

 

You ought to have the deal items on already though ... there is code trying to fit them to you - and it has waits in it - but most of them don't appear ... DD is magical like that.

And when I say "magical" I mean it probably has a mutex bug that sits at the root of a variety of problems relating to trying to add two or more items in close succession that is exacerbated because non-conflicting items are forced into conflict by a single, non-mask-based mutex. Zap has no problems of this kind and is effectively "instant". That DD mutex is not slot-masked only makes this worse, because it attempts to serialize ALL operations, which slows add/removes down in cases when they wouldn't conflict. You see it in every DD mod, including DCL, it's not DF specific. The batch mode seems to reduce the problems a bit, but using that would require a major rewrite of the enslavement mechanic.

 

Even when DF was only giving you the items and letting you fit them yourself, it seemed to not to give all of them.

Possibly that was just unfilled properties, or an LDC bug. The problem with unfilled properties is that I can fix them in the ESP, but you need a new game to benefit from the fix.

To work for all users, the value must be obtained by other means, which ends with the ESP name cut+pasted everywhere.

 

I think I need to revert to only giving items, which mean you will still have a race on to fit them manually if you are using "deal enslavement" rather than actual enslavement.

But I want to get the deals fixed, so if enslaved, you aren't obligated to wear anything but the slavery items.

[Lupine00]

4 hours ago, SkyAddiction said:

On an unrelated note, are expected deals and the boredom limit tied to just the deal being active

It counts each stage. That is also how configured deals are counted in the MCM when ensuring you have sufficient deals.

Deals only "do not count" when they are extensions of existing deals.

[HexBolt8]

Would it be practical to grant the player a 2-3 minute grace period after deal enslavement from SS before penalties get applied?  That could help smooth the transition and make up for some of the shortcomings of the DD framework. 

[SkyAddiction]

38 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

I haven't removed it - yet - but as I mentioned, I'm not sure if it even triggers.

When dealing with the blocking dialogs and AI-driven forcegreets, there's other logic in there that can mean dialogs aren't used.

 

You probably cannot test it properly in 2.11 because there are dozens of new dialog conditions in 2.12, added to fix this very issue.

Not that information from 2.11 is useless, but it might differ. You will definitely see some other deal dialogs firing during slavery, and they are't intended ... now.

 

It is probably fairer and more consistent to shut off all of the Slut Deal dialogs during slavery, even though this clearly was not always intended.

I'm leaving them in for 2.12 and see how it plays; as noted they may not even trigger.

 

Hmm... that's helpful. 

 

22 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

It counts each stage. That is also how configured deals are counted in the MCM when ensuring you have sufficient deals.

Deals only "do not count" when they are extensions of existing deals.

 

That was my assumption. Thanks for the clarification.

[slvsaris]

On 5/16/2020 at 1:54 AM, Lupine00 said:

Speaking of cages, they are a bit of a pain in terms of fitting them inside inns in a way that doesn't conflict with RRR or some other mod.

Lozeak put some gibbets outside for Devious World that didn't seem to conflict, but I notice that BFW and Hydra's both do this too, so there might be conflicts if you have both of those.

  Reveal hidden contents

Traditionally though, that sort of cage was used to kill people by dehydration and exposure, or for bodies that were already dead...

The Skyrim approach is more like something from a risque stage-show or high-end nightclub.

 

Another way is to put the cage in a basement/cellar with trapdoor access or something like that, but it feels a bit awkward. That some inns lack cellars seems an oversight to me, but I admit that drifts towards questions about realism and whether buildings of the period would be anything like the ones shown in Skyrim - which I suspect they would not. 

There's no realism in Skyrim, and that's why I don't want to be troubled by it. But I do find those oft-seen "magic trapdoors" a bit ... cheap.

 

The other "problem" (besides finding a place to put them, then making all those edits) with cages is that they are a gateway to more functionality. In one way, not a problem, but a benefit. 

 

For a cage to be interesting, there should be stuff going on outside the cage that involves you as a passive observer, or stuff that impacts directly on you. Just sitting in the cage for a bit is interesting for a short while, if not repeated too often, but it quickly wears thin.

 

Lozeak's DW approach was simply to make the cage work as a bed, so you didn't spend time in it. It was an atmosphere/mood thing rather than a place you would end up stuck. In that case, cages in inns (or outside inns, or underneath inns) are not terribly "gameplay extreme" because they aren't doing anything to your gameplay, they are just a way of getting a bed.

 

Devious Regulations, and Pet Project both make extensive use of scenes where the player is stuck but ... things ... are happening around them. Sometimes they might become involved.

 

The ideal is probably some scenario where you are in the cage and you treat it like prison. Either sit there and wait, or use the bedroll. If you sleep, you wake up hours later and are released soon enough. If you don't, maybe something interesting happens after a while ... but it's up to you to wait for that.

SD cages has more than enough cages to help you out.  There is a cage in all the inns I believe.  I will have to look at the inns in major cities though.  But placing a cage will have its issues, even if it's one of those small cages from ZAP 8.  I think it would be way easier to make the play sleep hogtied next to the bed (or some other bound pose).  Although I do like the cage idea.

 

Edit:  I suppose another way to handle this is have a few cells dedicated to DF that serve as inn or house basements that could contain whatever you like.  So when you rent a room at an inn with this in effect, you room is one of the special rooms.  (a few cells for variety)

[slvsaris]

Going to repost this because I am still looking to an answer.  I hope I didn't miss it.

 

Question, the description for Max Debt Allowed says it should be greater than Enslave Debt Threshold.  Since the threshold says it is the debt at which the player will be discarded if enslaved, it would seem that the description is backwards?  Or am I missing something?

 

I set the threshold really high because I did not want the follower to discard the player.

[valcon767]

27 minutes ago, slvsaris said:

Going to repost this because I am still looking to an answer.  I hope I didn't miss it.

 

Question, the description for Max Debt Allowed says it should be greater than Enslave Debt Threshold.  Since the threshold says it is the debt at which the player will be discarded if enslaved, it would seem that the description is backwards?  Or am I missing something?

 

I set the threshold really high because I did not want the follower to discard the player.

been a good while since i hit max or enslavement debt, but IIRC Enslavement Debt Threshold is the point at which your DF enslaves you due to not getting paid,

where the Max Debt Allowed is the point that your DF sells you due to having to much debt.

 

[Darkwing241]

1 hour ago, Lupine00 said:

I think I need to revert to only giving items, which mean you will still have a race on to fit them manually if you are using "deal enslavement" rather than actual enslavement.

But I want to get the deals fixed, so if enslaved, you aren't obligated to wear anything but the slavery items.

I think the cost/benefit of this probably makes it a good choice.  Obviously the ideal is to be able to fit devices automatically but having to self equip them really is no big deal.  I don't even think it's strictly worse you can cover the immersion break with the right dialogue, and then just give a real big cushion of time to equip the items.

 

"Ok you agree that you will wear a chastity belt for me.  Here you go, you can put it on tonight when you go to bed, but it stays on after that!"

 

This also has the advantage of giving players an out to not totally break a game if they really need to get out of a quest area or something before getting locked into some sort of bondage.