Seriously mod devs...

[krattar]

Look, to start, if this is a repeat thread, I'm sorry.

Now, I understand it take a LOT of work to make working mods, let a lone a good mod. I'm not saying it's easy, lord knows I don't even know how to start learning to maybe try and make one some day. Yet, it's a bit ridiculous what a lot of you are doing...

For example, I tried to install a mod today, Bad End: Executions. Sounds simple enough, except it requires Zap 8.0+ and FNIS. Zap 8.0+ requires FNIS, Sexlabs sex animation framework and XP32. Sexlab requires the script extender, SkyUI and the legendary patch. XP32 requires realistic ragdolls and force. Do you get what I'm saying yet? That's eight things and it isn't every file needed yet. Instructions on most mods are super vague and at times non existent (two on the Nexus).

You guys and gals already put so much effort into making a mod for other people to enjoy, and often times without any gain, which I can't tell you how much I and other simple minded rubes that can't code appreciate. But please, is it too much to ask that when you make your final product, that you make one that has everything already with it so it's easier for everyone to enjoy? I've been trying to get this mod running for almost five hours. I've done everything stand alone, didn't work. Tried Mod Organizer, didn't work and then not even Vortex worked. I don't even know where I'm going astray because there's so dang many other mods and files involved with the process.


Now if someone has the retarded mans guide to making this mod work, please share it with me. I definitely am at a loss here.

[Nazzzgul666]

 

5 minutes ago, krattar said:

But please, is it too much to ask that when you make your final product, that you make one that has everything already with it so it's easier for everyone to enjoy? 

Yes. The alternative would be that you will never be able to run more than one mod at once because they all have their own system incompatible to each other. And in most cases, they'd lack 80% of the quality and content, be buggy as hell or not exist at all.

 

But on the bright side... MO doesn't have any requirements, so you have plenty of time to get that one right without encountering the mentioned problem.

[V The Heretic]

There is a massive problem with this. You can't include F4SE because it's managed by Silverlock, so no. Sexlab is managed by a group here on LL, so on and so forth. All those mod yes do depend on each other, but you can't combine them because it leaves it open for variation to the user. Not only that, if something say were to break, then you would have to dig through a lot more than just isolating one specific area to the problem.

Yes, it's tedious on requirements, but in the long run of troubleshooting and variation, it's easier this way. Each mod is their own entity and has it's own mod authors.

Also, there is never a final product. As one mod updates, others have to update to correlate to the new structure and if something breaks in one area, patches need to be made for it to work. The in depth side a lot people typically don't see because Mod Authors already dig into this type of thing.

[Yinkle]

25 minutes ago, krattar said:

Now if someone has the retarded mans guide to making this mod work, please share it with me. I definitely am at a loss here.

I thought like you not that long ago, I have a better understanding of modding now having made lots of mistakes. Sometimes in life you have to make your own mistakes to learn.

[Lunatiel]

At least you know you're not the smartest person, nor the dumbest, but acknowledging that means you're not arrogant.

I understand the point you're making but as someone said above, there would be so many incompatibilities. 

But there is a reason alot of mods use the same 4-7 mods as a "required core", so that once you have those mods, downloading the extra ones on the side, you're already good to go.

[Kimy]

Mod packs are being requested every other day, but it won't happen. Both because of permission issues and because it would result in a maintenance nightmare.

 

Honestly, the only skill anyone needs to successfully install mods is the ability to read. Because every single mod I am aware of lists all their requirements in the download thread and/or ReadMe (it's called readme for a reason...). All people have to do is looking at that list, checking if they have the required assets installed, and if not, installing them using the SAME method (e.g. read THEIR documentation). Iterate through all of THEIR requirements as well. Rinse and repeat.

 

When everything is installed (an easy method to check is opening the entire load order with TES5Edit/FO4Edit etc and see if there are errors), run LOOT.

 

It's pretty much failsafe, really

[Elgate]

Unfortunately, it is impossible for most of these ideas. The point of each of these being separated is to allow for each modders to get recognition, and to be able to update it at their own pace. It also prevent duplicate.

Let's imagine that the mod you tried to install, Bad End: Execution had the whole package with everything.
And you want another mod let's say Deviously cursed loot. And that mod did the same thing, with its own package.
For starter, you'd download some intermediate mods twice. Which can amout to a huge amount if you want a lot of the loverslab package.
Second, let's say you install DCL package second. Now, you startup, and it doesn't work. Because BE:E requires FNIS 8.0+ while DCL, that you installed second, installed FNIS 7.0 and overwritten FNIS 8.0+ that was in BE:E package. Considering you have no knowledge of it, you'd most likely ask about it at the BE:E support, which wouldn't understand, because you'd be the only one with the problem for some reason.
And for a third reason, What if one of the intermediate packages has a problem? Imagine that FNIS 8.0+ had a save corrupting bug. After 10 hours of game, your save would be permanently corrupted. But the creator of BE:E was waiting on the brand new FNIS 8.0 for some features. So as soon as FNIS 8.0 release, he started working with it. He put in his package and relesed it. He wouldn't need the 8.1 version, since what he wanted worked, and he is unaware of the bug. On the other hand the creator of FNIS 8.0 realised the mistake and put up FNIS 8.1 to fix it. Going as far as removing the 8.0 version from Nexus to be sure nobody uses it. Yet, everyone that download BE:E would then get the same bug, because they wouldn't have the last version of FNIS... And there would be no way of knowing it.

Separating mods is important for content creators in terms of visibility, knowing how much people love what they do, in terms of updating and in terms of safety.
I will admit though, it is not the kindest to the people that have to install it. But for many reason, if I can't convince you it is the "best" option, I can at least say that it is the "least bad". Another solution, one day, if someone wants to do it, would be to do things like a mod manager that can accept mod packages. Not in the "Put all the file into the same archive" way, but rather in a "put all the download link for the mod on a simple button displayed on the mod manage". You'd download the package, the mod manager would look at the different mods you already have installed, see if you already have one of these mods, compare the version and tell you "Hey, you already got a more updated version of FNIS. Are you sure you wanna overwrite it with a previous version?"

But that gets beyond modding and starts getting really deep into actual program creation side of things. It is not something for people that know how to make mods, but for people that can actually make programs for a living.



Now, back at your problem, the only way I can see it going is the following:
Disable ALL these mods.
Reinstall them, in order, starting from the highest dependency (dependency in most mods are written from most important to least important).
Run FNIS again (in case you didn't know, FNIS is an executable OUTSIDE of the game and need to be ran everytime you install a new mod that require its features)
And either:
a) Run Loot (if you use it) or another sorter
b) Sort the mod yourselves. The dependecies being higher than the mod depending on it.

[krattar]

42 minutes ago, Kimy said:

 

 

Honestly, the only skill anyone needs to successfully install mods is the ability to read

When the directions aren't as clear as they should be, that's an issue.

Like this for example.

After properly installing SKSE, SkyUI, and FNIS as listed above, follow these steps.

Download the latest full framework pack & install it using your mod manager of choice (Mod Organizer highly preferred.)

Run the GenerateFNISforUsers.exe tool.

If you have a custom animation skeleton installed (very likely, if you don't you should. See: XPMSE2 or XPMSE3) make sure you check the "Skeleton arm fix" patch.

Click the big button that reads "Update FNIS Behavior"

You should see a line that says "Reading SexLab ..." if not you've done something wrong.

I've done that on all three attempts, in the listed order. When I run FNIS there's no skeleton arm fix, even with XPMSE2 and or 3 installed. So I click the closest option, nothing about Reading SexLab, I try it without clicking anything and get the same result. And what do I get for troubleshooting? "You did something wrong". Very descriptive and incredibly helpful, having no ideas offered of places to check first.

[myuhinny]

I use NMM instead.

 

But for some things like FNIS you need to install FNIS with MO and launch it from MO.

[krattar]

7 minutes ago, myuhinny said:

I use NMM instead.

 

But for some things like FNIS you need to install FNIS with MO and launch it from MO.

MO causes hard crashes before the game even gets past the launcher. So I scrapped the idea entirely.
 

[krattar]

14 minutes ago, myuhinny said:

I use NMM instead.

 

But for some things like FNIS you need to install FNIS with MO and launch it from MO.

I'm humoring it though. I've tried running FNIS through MO. It won't go. I get "No game data on top level" I tell it to go anyway, I get "This mod was probably NOT set up correctly, most likely it will NOT work. You should first correct the directory layout using the content-tree." I tell it to ignore because I have no idea what that means and the instructions don't say anything about that. It never shows up in the listed path as an executable. So back to square one, it doesn't work and there's no troubleshooting.

And yes, I watched the video, no it didn't work as stated in the video.

[Ernest Lemmingway]

Modding any game requires a certain degree of knowledge that is the responsibility of the user to learn. Modders are not obligated to instruct users how to install their mods. Some do as a simple courtesy or because there are very specific steps required for their mod(s). But even those require an understanding of the basics of modding on the part of the user. As there are literally hundreds of guides to modding Skyrim, with the STEP Wiki among the best and numerous videos on YouTube that visually illustrate each step required for setting up FNIS, MO, LOOT, and other utilities, there are ample resources anyone can refer to.

 

I'm a visual learner so written directions are very confusing to me if I haven't done something similar before. But once I do understand what the steps mean, and those YouTube vids really help, it's not that hard to figure out what to do.

 

I've been modding BGS games for nearly seventeen years now. There are still things I don't fully understand how to do. But I know where to look to find out. For me it's more of a desire to learn certain things than any inability to that stops me. Which, in getting my game to run mods like those here, has developed the desire to learn. Yes, it's complex. Yes, it's confusing at first. But it does get easier the more you do it.

[krattar]

16 minutes ago, Ernest Lemmingway said:

Modding any game requires a certain degree of knowledge that is the responsibility of the user to learn. Modders are not obligated to instruct users how to install their mods. Some do as a simple courtesy or because there are very specific steps required for their mod(s). But even those require an understanding of the basics of modding on the part of the user. As there are literally hundreds of guides to modding Skyrim, with the STEP Wiki among the best and numerous videos on YouTube that visually illustrate each step required for setting up FNIS, MO, LOOT, and other utilities, there are ample resources anyone can refer to.

 

I'm a visual learner so written directions are very confusing to me if I haven't done something similar before. But once I do understand what the steps mean, and those YouTube vids really help, it's not that hard to figure out what to do.

 

I've been modding BGS games for nearly seventeen years now. There are still things I don't fully understand how to do. But I know where to look to find out. For me it's more of a desire to learn certain things than any inability to that stops me. Which, in getting my game to run mods like those here, has developed the desire to learn. Yes, it's complex. Yes, it's confusing at first. But it does get easier the more you do it.

Neato dude. I've enlisted an actual modder I went to high school with, he got me all the way to installing Bed Ends. Now even he's lost, there's no instructions, *anywhere* that either of us can find. I've got three file download options and no clue what to do with any of them.

[phillout]

2 hours ago, krattar said:

I've been trying to get this mod running for almost five hours. I've done everything stand alone, didn't work. Tried Mod Organizer, didn't work and then not even Vortex worked. I don't even know where I'm going astray because there's so dang many other mods and files involved with the process.


Now if someone has the retarded mans guide to making this mod work, please share it with me. I definitely am at a loss here.

LL is simply not a place for people who are not ready to spend hours on setting up their game. I've used to spend up to couple of days to set up all mods from a clean fresh start, sometimes finalizing your load order takes a whole week (of course, not 12 hours per day, but spending some time every day on modding the  game). This is advanced modding, most mods here require a lot of dependencies, reading all related forum threads with all the information, including patches posted in comments. If you are not going to do all that work - including reading a lot of comments and manuals posted here - you will most likely break your game. And no, this is not some "elitism", asking here for a simple 10 minutes video tutorial "how to use all these mods when I can't even use MO" is just as sensible as complaining on Gentoo Linux forums "why I have to learn configuring all those kernel options and what they mean?". LL is a place of mods development where people push the game to its limits (and quite a few times beyond them, so it fails).

 

If you  think it's too hard - wait until you hit a mod reacquiring Devious Devices and BodySlide. 

[Grey Cloud]

Have you got a link for this 'Bed Ends'? EDIT: Nevermind I found it. This is from the Mod page, it may offer a clue as to which of the 3 files you require:

What's New in Version Bad Ends 0.3

How hard can it be to install when it is only a 'scripts' folder and an esp?

 

And, more importantly, have you actually taken onboard any of the mostly excellent advice that has been posted here?

 

As far as your OP goes, FNIS, SAF and, to a lesser extent, XPMSE skeleton are more or less mandatory for a whole raft of mods here on LL. Similar for SkyUI and USLEEP. XPMSE does not require Realistic Ragdolls. In fact the opposite is true: if you use XPMSE then you do not need Realistic Ragdolls as XPMSE does ragdolling.

 

You are blaming modders when the problem is your own ignorance. If you are not able to get a mod manager to work then you are going to struggle getting your game modded and working.

[krattar]

24 minutes ago, Grey Cloud said:

Similar for SkyUI and USLEEP. XPMSE does not require Realistic Ragdolls. In fact the opposite is true: if you use XPMSE then you do not need Realistic Ragdolls as XPMSE does ragdolling.
 

Straight from the XMPSE page https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/26800/?
 

Requirements

Nexus requirements

Mod nameNotes

Realistic Ragdolls and Force
 

 

[krattar]

So sue me for thinking it was required because the page on nexus said it was required.

Now as for how hard can it be? Three files, identical contents, no instructions on where to put what and how to get it there.



I admit, I'm not the smartest person in the world, but get off your high horse and stop being a dick to those that don't know and are trying to learn. There's been almost no advice, just some kind that can't be done remarks and a lot of scolding.

[bandygirl1]

36 minutes ago, krattar said:

Straight from the XMPSE page https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/26800/?
 

Requirements

Nexus requirements

Mod nameNotes

Realistic Ragdolls and Force
 

 

That's the wrong skeleton. It is NOT xmpsE. It is XPMS.

 

You need https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/68000?tab=files. I understand that you are frustrated. But no; Mod authors can only do so much. Lots of modding your personal game requires YOU to pay attention to detail and to follow instruction.

 

MO works fine. There's a reason thousands of people use it daily with no issue. Ignoring instructions on how to set data directories on mods you're trying to install is NOT MO or the author of MOs fault. It's your fault. There are an incredible amount of videos, written instructions, and tutorials on seting up and using MO, FNIS, XPMSE, ect.

 

The fact that you can't seem to be bothered to use any of them, and then want to call people dicks, ect. when they point it out to you, is no bodies problem but your own.

[krattar]

Well, I'm still not sure if it's all working properly. It shows up ingame under the MCM and I was arrested for stealing cheese. Now I'm standing near the gallows with my hands tied and unable to move. Been there about 10 minutes.


Everything needed to be installed through MO, which wasn't working for me because I didn't launch the game through MO. One everything is installed for it to work I had to us MO to launch the Skyrim launcher.

[krattar]

13 minutes ago, bandygirl1 said:

That's the wrong skeleton. It is NOT xmpsE. It is XPMS.

 

You need https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/68000?tab=files. I understand that you are frustrated. But no; Mod authors can only do so much. Lots of modding your personal game requires YOU to pay attention to detail and to follow instruction.

 

MO works fine. There's a reason thousands of people use it daily with no issue. Ignoring instructions on how to set data directories on mods you're trying to install is NOT MO or the author of MOs fault. It's your fault. There are an incredible amount of videos, written instructions, and tutorials on seting up and using MO, FNIS, XPMSE, ect.

 

The fact that you can't seem to be bothered to use any of them, and then want to call people dicks, ect. when they point it out to you, is no bodies problem but your own.

See there's where *you* didn't pay full attention... I don't know if you're aware of this or not, but that's the link provided on the ZAP page here on loverslab. I thought I had the right thing, again, sue me.

As for calling them a dick, they came at me sideways because I'm not as intelligent and understanding as they are. Pretty dickish thing to do when I haven't purposely been rude or insulted/sworn at anyone.
 

[Grey Cloud]

Post edited to remove a mistake on my part.

 

Lots of us here, me included, started off with no idea about modding Skyrim. As has been pointed out above, we did lots of reading and then we did lots more reading.

 

As for the confusion over which file to download, I agree that it is not immediately obvious but about 5 seconds thought convinced me that it was unlikely to be a three-part rar when they were all so small. Another 10 seconds of scanning the mod page revealed that they were indeed different versions.

 

You didn't come here asking for help or advice, you came venting at mod authors when it was your own ignorance which is the cause of your problems. Also you have posted in the General Discussion section rather than the mod support thread or Tech Support so respondents are entitled to give their POV.

[bandygirl1]

1 minute ago, Grey Cloud said:

bandygirl1 is incorrect. The Skeleton is XP Maximum Skeleton Extended = XPMSE.

 

 

And now you're misunderstanding my post hun, lol.

 

Look at skeleton HE linked. It is XPMS. I was telling him it was the wrong skeleton ( that he wasn't using XPMSE, he was using XPMS ).

Then I told him he needed XPMSE and linked it for him.

[bandygirl1]

1 hour ago, krattar said:

See there's where *you* didn't pay full attention... I don't know if you're aware of this or not, but that's the link provided on the ZAP page here on loverslab. I thought I had the right thing, again, sue me.

 

And again; NO, *YOU* didn't pay attention. Because he Tara gives you three options on skeletons, and explains why you'd use anything other than XPMSE ( clearly listing each separately ).

 

And, again; Since there is NO WAY for any author to know what particular combination of mods you will use, it is UP TO YOU to use the correct file.

[Grey Cloud]

3 minutes ago, bandygirl1 said:

And now you're misunderstanding my post hun, lol.

Indeed I am and humble apologies.     I've deleted the offending remark from my post.

[bandygirl1]

3 minutes ago, Grey Cloud said:

Indeed I am and humble apologies.     I've deleted the offending remark from my post.

No need to apologize hun. I just didn't want you to think I was confusing the OP more by posting incorrect information, lol.