devious Devious Body Alteration

[crudo]

Hopefully a basic question.  I'm hoping that this mod can be tailored, it seems to be the case.  What I'm looking for is very specific, using Devious Followers, one of the "deals" you can make is to wear a corset.  I would like the corset to shrink/reduce the waist of the player, not the weight.  Would this mod allow that?

 

Thanks!

[Zaflis]

2 hours ago, crudo said:

Hopefully a basic question.  I'm hoping that this mod can be tailored, it seems to be the case.  What I'm looking for is very specific, using Devious Followers, one of the "deals" you can make is to wear a corset.  I would like the corset to shrink/reduce the waist of the player, not the weight.  Would this mod allow that?

Corset is shrinking the waist in current version (you need XPMSE skeleton and morphs with Bodyslide). I would assume it should reduce weight, but i haven't observed that.

 

One thing that is working weirdly for me is collars. Most of them have no effect, but then i had a high security steel collar and neck started lengthening. It didn't seem to reduce after the collar was off for many ingame days. I had the effect speed set to 2 or 3.

[Rogwar002]

2 hours ago, crudo said:

Hopefully a basic question.  I'm hoping that this mod can be tailored, it seems to be the case.  What I'm looking for is very specific, using Devious Followers, one of the "deals" you can make is to wear a corset.  I would like the corset to shrink/reduce the waist of the player, not the weight.  Would this mod allow that?

 

Thanks!

yes, it would. Simply disable the weight change option. It is located on the first page (now).

 

48 minutes ago, Zaflis said:

One thing that is working weirdly for me is collars.

The collars are next to vagina and the alternative waistscaling different to the other morphs. They only work in true first person mode. Mods changing the first person view will prevent the update. I plan to built a workaround for users with Immersive First Person View and similar mods.

3 hours ago, Clockwinding said:

However i'd like to request one thing regarding the weight loss/gain feature : it's too fast!

True.

I´ll have to work on that. But I lack sparetime

[Zaflis]

48 minutes ago, Rogwar002 said:

The collars are next to vagina and the alternative waistscaling different to the other morphs. They only work in true first person mode. Mods changing the first person view will prevent the update. I plan to built a workaround for users with Immersive First Person View and similar mods.

I only play in 3rd person mode and i don't have any 1st person altering mods.

[Lupine00]

Can you explain in more detail the issue with IFPV as you understand it?

 

Presumably you update nodes or morphs and they don't get reflected in the mesh. But why? The IFPV meshes are the regular third-person meshes. Do you know more about why it fails?

 

If you apply a change later, does everything get applied and "catch up", or only the new change, and the others don't appear in the visual?

 

I'm interested for SLD-releated reasons, but also because I use IFPV pretty much all the time, and I have noticed that I often need to swap outfits to get updates to happen. It never occurred to me that IFPV was the cause.

[Rogwar002]

54 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

Can you explain in more detail the issue with IFPV as you understand it?

Easy.

I don´t update the body using NiOverride scripts, namely AddNodeTransformScale, when not in first person. There is a sript checking for animation like "is first person", sneaking, swimming, riding, walking etc. Reason: If you use body morph from racemenu your game will have a visible lag. If you use node transform your toon will have a visible twitch. Imho unacceptable, but I will implement a workaround for those using IFPV. I personally prefer The Joy of Perspective.

Maybe this will be just a toogle to check for the animations but not for firstperson...But be aware: The body alteration will cause a twitch, because if I use two nodes, they will have a workflow, causing a slight distortion in a blink of an eye.

[Lupine00]

56 minutes ago, Rogwar002 said:

I personally prefer The Joy of Perspective.

I see, so it's not a problem with node updates in IFPV not working normally? Right.

 

It's just that you don't want to do node updates that the player might see?

 

 

It seems quite limiting, especially as many other mods are just going to have a go at the nodes whenever they feel like it, which will obscure your efforts.

 

Instead of imposing a hard limitation, why not let the player decide with a tickbox or something?

 

 

JoP is a much more complex, invasive mod than IFPV, which is just an SKSE plugin you can drop from your game any time. JoP and Enhanced Camera both had bad interactions with SD+ for me. I like that if IFPV is not making my game better, I can just remove it. That said, I've had zero problems with IFPV once I figured out how I could have my cake and eat it by getting the DD third-person-clear-but-immobile/first-person-blind-but-mobile blindfold mode working to my satisfaction with IFPV.

[Cerral]

hello,

I use this mod with SLIF and sexlab disparity. Visually it works very well. The trouble is that the changes are not detected by slif and disparity and I do not understand why. A little help would be welcome.

[Clockwinding]

4 hours ago, Cerral said:

hello,

I use this mod with SLIF and sexlab disparity. Visually it works very well. The trouble is that the changes are not detected by slif and disparity and I do not understand why. A little help would be welcome.

Works for me.

Normally at the first triggered change by DBA, SLIF will register it. Then in SLD you need to check the "use SLIF for bodymorphs" or something parameter on the first page, and all 3 will be linked.

[Cerral]

26 minutes ago, Clockwinding said:

Works for me.

Normally at the first triggered change by DBA, SLIF will register it. Then in SLD you need to check the "use SLIF for bodymorphs" or something parameter on the first page, and all 3 will be linked.

I did it, but the changes from DBA to my pussy, spine, neck works correctly in SLIF, but breasts, butt don't works and I don't know why. I have estrus chaurus and fill her up and both works very well with slif and SLD.

When my breasts get bigger by DBA, SLIF don't detect it, when my neck elongates, SLIF detect it. Too strange.

[Rogwar002]

6 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

It's just that you don't want to do node updates that the player might see?

correct.

I already decided for the community I will implement a switch. But of course the project is firsthand for me

Maybe I should name the trigger "Ugly Body Alteration switch"

21 minutes ago, Cerral said:

When my breasts get bigger by DBA, SLIF don't detect it, when my neck elongates, SLIF detect it. Too strange.

not at all. What you see in SLIF is AddNodeTransformScale. This is the direct method of manipulating the body.

What you not see is BodyMorph (setMorphValue) triggered with Racemenu and Bodyslide. Do you have RaceMenuMorphsUUNP.esp in your loadorder? Seems missing when I read your error description. The esp is part of Bodyslide and Outfit Studio.

 

[Cerral]

59 minutes ago, Rogwar002 said:

not at all. What you see in SLIF is AddNodeTransformScale. This is the direct method of manipulating the body.

What you not see is BodyMorph (setMorphValue) triggered with Racemenu and Bodyslide. Do you have RaceMenuMorphsUUNP.esp in your loadorder? Seems missing when I read your error description. The esp is part of Bodyslide and Outfit Studio.

 

I have RacemenuMorphscbbe in my load order.

[Lupine00]

4 hours ago, Rogwar002 said:

not at all. What you see in SLIF is AddNodeTransformScale. This is the direct method of manipulating the body.

What you not see is BodyMorph (setMorphValue) triggered with Racemenu and Bodyslide. Do you have RaceMenuMorphsUUNP.esp in your loadorder? Seems missing when I read your error description. The esp is part of Bodyslide and Outfit Studio.

SLIF can detect and show changes to morphs, just just have to swap the sliders page from "Default Modus" (which means NI nodes - bone scales basically)  to "Morph Modus" ...  I have no idea why SLIF uses such strange terminology like "Modus", perhaps it's not written in English per-se?

 

Even after reading the source for handling modifications at some length, there's still a lot of scripts in SLIF I haven't looked at, and functionality I'm unsure of. Does it support re-mapping node changes to morph changes? Can you configure shapes to use with such a feature? I can't tell from the opaque MCM. Would have to find it in the source. There seems to be some general mechanism for binding disparate node changes together, which is potentially configurable, but ... I think ... only from the script side, not from the MCM.

 

Clearly, there is a menu called "Bodymorphs" where you can set a morph state for Breasts, Belly and Butt, but I cannot see how you map a state-set to a given input value to create an actual interpolator.

 

e.g. How to say that I want to use a given set of morph values when a breast node value of 1.0 is being set, and how to use a different set when a breast node value of 3.0 is being set.

 

So... When old-fashioned mods attempt to set breast size through nodes, via SLIF, SLIF remaps them to a morph + node value pair that is applied to give a resultant body transform of the player's choosing.

 

Is that even a thing SLIF can do?

[Zaflis]

On 2/24/2019 at 2:54 AM, Rogwar002 said:

The collars are next to vagina and the alternative waistscaling different to the other morphs. They only work in true first person mode. Mods changing the first person view will prevent the update. I plan to built a workaround for users with Immersive First Person View and similar mods.

I just realized this can't be fully what's happening. The issue is on second part that you would at least see the neck alteration in MCM status tab. But with most collars the alteration will just stay 0 for ingame days, nevermind what it looks visually on player. That doesn't have to do with morphs etc, just internal mod variables that don't detect a collar?

[Rogwar002]

On 2/24/2019 at 8:34 PM, Cerral said:

I have RacemenuMorphscbbe in my load order.

Ok. Even if you don´t see the numbers the morphs are done. To make them visible do this:

In SLIF on the third page named Values and Sliders, the first colum is Modus. Default will be the NiOverride Transformation. You wrote, pussy, spine and neck are visible there.

There is another Modus lingering on this page. The Morph Modus. Open the Modus Menu and choose Morph Modus. There should be the rest from DBA visble, if you have / had some restraints on your body, altering boobs or butt, etc.

 

Easiest way to find out, if everything is working as intended: open console and type "coc qasmoke" (without quotation marks).

Move the Alteration Speed slider to 100.

Move the Body Morph Speed slider to Default (1h).

Move the Update Intervall Setting to Default (6.66s).

On the right side of the General tab hit the Alternative Waist Alteration toggle making it active.

Move the Waist alteration strength to 100 on the Alteration page.

Give your toon a restricitve corset by opening the console and typing player.additem xx0159a8 (where xx is the mod index number of Devious Devices Expansion).

Go to third person view.

Equip the corset and press T (default Skyrim keyboard layout) to wait 5 hours game time.

Your toons waist should pinch in.

Go to first person view.

Your toons waist should pinch further after 6.66s in first person and your toon will shrink a little. Perhaps your boobs seem to grow (they don´t, but the scaling effect will increase the upper bodysize giving the illusion of breast growth).

 

In case the above mentioned workflow will not give results, there is a mistake in your modfolder. With enabled loging, you could filter DBA in the logfile. It will show if there are errors, and which.

This picture is from my testsave game and is looking ridicoulus. Just look at her arms... ancestor: Ape.

 

On 2/24/2019 at 11:43 PM, Lupine00 said:

SLIF can detect and show changes to morphs, just just have to swap the sliders page from "Default Modus" (which means NI nodes - bone scales basically)  to "Morph Modus" ...

Yes I know that one. I used to have it in my loadorder before I wrote my own mod. Now it is useless for me, because I made the necessary modificatin in the Racemenu ini and the body morphs are stacking correct now.

On 2/24/2019 at 11:43 PM, Lupine00 said:

there is a menu called "Bodymorphs" where you can set a morph state for Breasts, Belly and Butt, but I cannot see how you map a state-set to a given input value to create an actual interpolator.

Never used that page. seems not worth the effort.

On 2/24/2019 at 11:43 PM, Lupine00 said:

e.g. How to say that I want to use a given set of morph values when a breast node value of 1.0 is being set, and how to use a different set when a breast node value of 3.0 is being set.

I think you refer to the Preset page? Usefull one. If done correct, you can limit your e.g. breastsize there. It is possible to resize your body there, because you can set minimum and maximum values. Take Estrus Chaurus pregnancy and DBA breast manipulation. If not limited it is possible to have 5 times your breastsize than original set during character creation.

On 2/24/2019 at 11:43 PM, Lupine00 said:

When old-fashioned mods attempt to set breast size through nodes, via SLIF, SLIF remaps them to a morph + node value pair that is applied to give a resultant body transform of the player's choosing.

That does read wrong.

If I understand correct, you state, SLIF is doing a translation? That is wrong. SLIF is a bloated filter with a min/max summary setting. SLIF is monitoring scaling effects (NetImmerse or NIOverride) and will come in handy, if you have to much mods manipulating your toon, to prevent strange distortions.

Just have a look at SLIF_Calc.psc & SLIF_Scale.psc.

 

1 hour ago, Zaflis said:

That doesn't have to do with morphs etc, just internal mod variables that don't detect a collar? 

The collar detection is kept simple. I´m just looking for the collar keyword: zad_DeviousCollar. That´s it.

If your collar is not part of Devious Devices, it will not work. The mentioned keyword has to be part of the item.

 

regards

Rogwar

 

[Lupine00]

55 minutes ago, Rogwar002 said:

That does read wrong.

If I understand correct, you state, SLIF is doing a translation? That is wrong. SLIF is a bloated filter with a min/max summary setting. SLIF is monitoring scaling effects (NetImmerse or NIOverride) and will come in handy, if you have to much mods manipulating your toon, to prevent strange distortions.

Just have a look at SLIF_Calc.psc & SLIF_Scale.psc.

I didn't say it is doing it. I queried whether it can do it. When you quote it out of context it seems like I am saying it does it, but that was actually a clarifying example following a question, not a statement of known SLIF behaviour.

 

It seems to me it ought to, if it's good for anything, but I don't know if it does. I thought you might know, as I never got a straight answer from a SLIF evangelist.

 

The key phrase from my original post was:

On 2/25/2019 at 9:43 AM, Lupine00 said:

Is that even a thing SLIF can do?

Seems like you're saying it doesn't.

 

SLIF_Calc and SLIF_Scale I'm familiar with...

 

 

Bloated filter... Well... I don't really understand why it is so obsessed with increments - or at least, has so much code related to managing them. I cannot imagine a case where anyone ever wants to change increments from some well selected default. I suppose it's intended to resolve the exact kind of issues that DBA has in delivering non-glitchy node modification with reasonable performance cost. I'm just not convinced that most mods are seeing any benefit from this because they were designed with "once a day" node updates or similar large intervals, and expect their changes to appear instantly, all at once.

 

Similarly, I don't really "get" the design of the API for linked nodes. There should be simple API calls to set breasts/belly/butt, because that is what 99% of mods want to do. They don't care how SLIF has implemented the breast-node-pair, and they shouldn't have to. Just let them treat the breasts as a single value, because that is all they model. I cannot think of a mod that models different left/right boob (or glute) sizes. The other stuff can be exposed ... but it's not something most mods would ever need or care about. The way it's implemented, the generic solution ends up being five times more complex than just handling special cases would be. SLIF is solving a problem that the SLIF author perceived, support for different bodies, different skeletons, new nodes, and all that going forward... It's all very sensible, but it comes at a price, to fix problems most mods and most users don't have, and isn't encapsulated to the extent it should be. Instead, end-users are faced with confusing options to do baffling things like select JSON files, and developers have to traverse an absurdly deep call stack to debug anything in it, amongst other problems. 

 

Without a means to map simplistic node values to player-selected morph states, SLIF isn't adding much. NiOverride already lets the player choose how nodes are composed, and it's a lot easier to move a mod from basic NetImmerse node setting to NiOverride setting, than to move to SLIF. But I imagine we agree that trying to change boob size by scaling the breast node looks terrible, and glutes and belly are not much better.

 

 

If presets can determine limits for values, I don't know how. I thought it was just for setting up what appeared on the sliders menu. At least, I couldn't find a way to make it do anything useful - but the SLIF menus seem purposely opaque, and lacking in tooltips where it matters.

 

 

The problem with SLIF is ... the UI is a barrier to entry, the API is a barrier to entry, and it killed CANS as a viable path (maybe that's not fair, CANS killed CANS, let's just say it killed the will to develop CANS), so now we have SLIF support all over the place, complete with patches that basically require you to read the patch code and the target mod before you know if you are safe to incorporate that patch ... and there are use patterns all over that just GetFormFromFile without checking the ESP exists, leading to all kinds of stale script file, and script file load order issues. I simply cannot get a stable game with SLIF in it, though it's clear that the SLIF code of itself is not to blame for this. CANS promoted mod event integration, avoiding the GetFormFromFile generated bugs that swirl around SLIF. OK, it never delivered it, but the intent was there. OTOH, SLIF ironically has rich mod event support, but offers little guidance on what is best, or why. The non-event based path should be marked deprecated, and modders discouraged from using it. The patches should definitely NOT use it.

 

Or put another way, SLIF is successful enough to block development of an alternative, but not good enough to be a satisfactory solution. 

[Zaflis]

33 minutes ago, Rogwar002 said:

The collar detection is kept simple. I´m just looking for the collar keyword: zad_DeviousCollar. That´s it.

If your collar is not part of Devious Devices, it will not work. The mentioned keyword has to be part of the item.

 

Many collars (more than half?) in DDA, DDI and DDX don't have that keyword, instead they are properties as above.

[Cerral]

11 hours ago, Rogwar002 said:

Ok. Even if you don´t see the numbers the morphs are done. To make them visible do this:

In SLIF on the third page named Values and Sliders, the first colum is Modus. Default will be the NiOverride Transformation. You wrote, pussy, spine and neck are visible there.

There is another Modus lingering on this page. The Morph Modus. Open the Modus Menu and choose Morph Modus. There should be the rest from DBA visble, if you have / had some restraints on your body, altering boobs or butt, etc.

 

Easiest way to find out, if everything is working as intended: open console and type "coc qasmoke" (without quotation marks).

Move the Alteration Speed slider to 100.

Move the Body Morph Speed slider to Default (1h).

Move the Update Intervall Setting to Default (6.66s).

On the right side of the General tab hit the Alternative Waist Alteration toggle making it active.

Move the Waist alteration strength to 100 on the Alteration page.

Give your toon a restricitve corset by opening the console and typing player.additem xx0159a8 (where xx is the mod index number of Devious Devices Expansion).

Go to third person view.

Equip the corset and press T (default Skyrim keyboard layout) to wait 5 hours game time.

Your toons waist should pinch in.

Go to first person view.

Your toons waist should pinch further after 6.66s in first person and your toon will shrink a little. Perhaps your boobs seem to grow (they don´t, but the scaling effect will increase the upper bodysize giving the illusion of breast growth).

 

In case the above mentioned workflow will not give results, there is a mistake in your modfolder. With enabled loging, you could filter DBA in the logfile. It will show if there are errors, and which.

This picture is from my testsave game and is looking ridicoulus. Just look at her arms... ancestor: Ape.

 

 

 

I did and here the result.

 

 

after that i put a chatity bra

 

DBA Works well

 

[crudo]

Just a big thank you to Rogwar002, I asked if this would adjust the waist with the corset quest in Devious Followers and it worked great.  Thanks so much!  Nice work on the mod.

 

Had a request if you ever get time and are so inclined, I know these adjustments are for devious devices but would you consider adding a weight gain option for pregnancy?  One that reverts back to normal/starting weight after pregnancy is over... over time of course.  Even better if it was compatible with Soul Gem Oven III.

 

Thanks again for the great mod.  I will probably dabble with some of the other alteration options at a future date.

[Rogwar002]

Spoiler

On 2/26/2019 at 2:21 AM, Zaflis said:

 

Many collars (more than half?) in DDA, DDI and DDX don't have that keyword, instead they are properties as above.

 

The picture is showing a property, not a keyword.

You´re looking at the wrong place and the wrong item. The keywords are part of the scriptinstance item not the Inventory item. Every DD item is devided in two parts in the esp. This is the reason, why you only find the keyword in half the items. This is perfectly normal and DBA should do the trick. My testgame is working as intended.

[botticelli]

Thanks for this awesome mod. How do I get the vaginal alteration to work? I tried nearly every vaginal plug / pear in DD and DCL but this does not seem to affect the value. All others work fine.

Oh, one other thing: The feet alteration proceeded to 80 when I got cow hooves from BAC. Now it combats those hovves with some "defomred feet" message, so they get unequipped and replaced by cinderella feet until BAC kicks in again and replaces them back. So, I tried to disable feet alteration by setting the value to 0 which did not help, i. e. it did not reset the status value (still 80) and the problem remains.

[Krazyone]

IDEA... Bruises added to your skin, after long term devious device use. With a timer, which prevents you wearing armour.

 

Devious Training... I love that mod, it has an MCM option, to have bruises that appear on your body after long term devious device use. The Corset leaves a nice mark, along with the rib marks of the corset.

 

I reckon it might make a possible nice future addition to your mod... ?

 

 

Just an idea... 

 

[Cerral]

an idea of why SLIF does not detect breast size change? I change my load order, re-instal SLIF and patch, but i don't find the problem.  My screens above shows that visually it works though.  Any help would really appreciate.

[Krazyone]

4 hours ago, Cerral said:

an idea of why SLIF does not detect breast size change? I change my load order, re-instal SLIF and patch, but i don't find the problem.  My screens above shows that visually it works though.  Any help would really appreciate.

I had that problem recently, during a fresh install of Skyrim. This is what I did to fix it, I don't know if it will work for you.

 

Open Sexlab inflation framework MCM menu

Go to TOGGLES... click Auto Register SLIF for the player

Drop down a few into MORPHS... click Auto Register SLIF for the player as well.

 

Exit MCM, and my SLIF worked after that. It only happened once though... 

 

I've got the other problem, with my latest install. Testing out the latest Clams of Skyrim body. My character went to bed flat chested, and woke up a breast monster. This install, is just a test install. Testing out a build, and failing to get it stable. I guess, I'll be downgrading to Clams of Skyrim v3.3 again, as it is 100% stable on my crappy P.C.

 

[Cerral]

12 hours ago, Krazyone said:

I had that problem recently, during a fresh install of Skyrim. This is what I did to fix it, I don't know if it will work for you.

 

Open Sexlab inflation framework MCM menu

Go to TOGGLES... click Auto Register SLIF for the player

Drop down a few into MORPHS... click Auto Register SLIF for the player as well.

 

Exit MCM, and my SLIF worked after that. It only happened once though... 

 

I've got the other problem, with my latest install. Testing out the latest Clams of Skyrim body. My character went to bed flat chested, and woke up a breast monster. This install, is just a test install. Testing out a build, and failing to get it stable. I guess, I'll be downgrading to Clams of Skyrim v3.3 again, as it is 100% stable on my crappy P.C.

  

it does not work for me. I unlisted my character and then registered again but nothing to do. I do not know what to test anymore.