Let's talk about Bethesda

[nightwing100]

<Remove for personal reason>

 

 

 

[FauxFurry]

Much of the intensity in the negative backlash (outside of No Mutants Allowed, anyway) seems to come from what people see happening to BGS and the direction that they dread they are headed, revealing that perhaps they are either no longer the company that they thought that they were or that they never were that company to begin with, only now the truth has been revealed. There is a sense of perceived betrayal palpable in their posts. 

 

I am of the mind that most of their serious problems could be fixed with the right hires, job assignments and clever asset usage (including the downplaying of combat in favor of environmental interactions for the sake of problem solving and world traversal) but the insularity of Bethesda Softworks/Bethesda Game Studio alike (partly to avoid the stream of unhelpful advice or criticism such as telling them to relinquish the Fallout property to other studios or to simply state that some aspect of their games is bad without elaborating on why it is bad or how it could be improved in a way which works with their overall design philosophy) practically guarantees that the only feedback they will listen to anymore comes from people who attend conventions which their staffers attend.

[prinyo]

Not sure how long this thread will last, but here we go.

 

It is very important to understand that nobody is "hating" on Bethesda because they want it to fail. People are bitching and complaining because they feel disappointed and betrayed by BGS and want the studio to return to it's former self.

And then it is important to understand that V76 wouldn't be so controversial and hated so much if it wasn't for FO4 and CC before it. V76 is seen as a continuation of a downwards trends both in game development and in marketing/monetization.

As I said months ago on their own forum (where I do my V76 'hating' mostly) there are 2 distinct periods in the history of BGS - before and after 2012. We are playing Skyrim, Oblivion, FO3 and Morrowind and we think that this is Bethesda, But for the past 6 years the studio has released FO4, CC, FS and V76.ANd the next upcoming game is a mobile swiping simulator.  This is the BGS of today, not the one from 6 years ago. And we need to keep that in mind when thinking about their future games. This 6 year trend has now logically took them to the bottom  of the customer satisfaction and trust, but it is doubtful they will learn the correct lessons from it all. After all they failed to learn almost any lesson from FO4 as demonstrated by the fact that V76 even exists.

 

About Youtube - I don't see those videos as "hate" videos, I see them as group therapy for the many people who feel betrayed by V76.

 

Previous similar threads here didn't end up well, this can be a very toxic topic.

 

 

Added:

 

If we exclude the server disconnects I don't believe V76 is released more brojken than any other BGS game. (I don't own it, but I have seen a lot of videos about it's bugs). What is different now is the lack of willingness to forgive and also lack of modding support to fix the bugs (as the PC crowd as always is the most vocal). People are looking for ways to legitimize their hate for the game, but the hate comes from the core concept of V76., not because of the bugs.

In this context comes the question about the engine -a low hanging fruit, similar to the facial animations in MEA. My personl opinion is that the problem is not the engine, but the updates they make to it in order to keep it relevant. They lean heavily on flashiness against performance and as a result every new game runs worse than the previous one. Just look at the video MrMattyPlays uploaded when his framerate drops below 10 on a good PC when the dragon shouts at him (or whatever the Fallout dragons do). So for me the problem is not in the engine, but in the updates they do pushing it obviously beyond it's capabilities.

[nobis]

LULU founder, luluathetica i think full name is, mentioned in one interview, that :

 

.. ...once company atracts coporational capital, the director board, which represents investors, shareholders, have little interest in creative ideas generated by the fouders, project develpment heads, even that, they honestly don't wan't creative people arround, because all that their bring in their eyes, is problems. Be it founder or anyone else''

 

 

No matter how much WE LOVE oblivion, skyrim, morrowind etc ; most of those guys, most likely haven't even heard of those games, and they have completely different vision for the company.

 

Howard, might be a problem to them.

 

 

and let me be honest, i havent red 95% of your post, just, too long for me. Sorry.

[Nazzzgul666]

Well, honestly i don't think any of the games you mentioned is that great. The only Beth game i really enjoyed a lot was Morrowind, after that i consider the things they published mod engines with show cases which are - while not perfect - better than anything else out there.

 

From there it went downwards, both story and gameplay became less and less engaging at least for me. I didn't bother to buy FO4, it doesn't seem worth it considering that adding mods is the only thing i'd do, and it's not that different to Skyrim regarding the engine. V76 even less. 

 

So... i appretiate some things they still did, i.e. modding support. And imho it would be unfair just to stop buying their games without telling them why. What i want are good RPGs with a story that follows its own logic and unique, believable characters, to surprise me and are fun to play. I considered Oblivion rather a pain in the ass than a good RPG compared to Morrowind, and mods were the only reason i bought Skyrim at all.

I don't like the direction they're going more than a decade now and the only reason for me to buy TESVI would be a massive engine improvement while keeping or even improving mod support, which obviously V76 isn't, or any other game they released recently or plan to release in near future.

That probably sounds like i hate them which isn't really true. I actually like them, but it's more because of the CK than the games. While those have a lot of flaws too, it's still more than most other companies do. In fact more than any other company afaik, plus they seem at least cool with projects like SKSE which requires a good amount of reverse engineering and they could at least try to sue them.

 

On the other hand, that something like SKSE and FNIS are even necessary means they don't care to do more than releasing CKs, and i think the suspicion that they don't care that much about bugs because the community will fix them isn't entirely wrong. The idea to release something like V76 where that isn't possible was quite a bad idea from the beginning and they obviously aren't prepared to do that work on their own. Other multiplayer games may have their bugs on release too, but at least there they're prepared and try to fix them asap, which Beth isn't. Or "asap" rather means months than days for them.

 

If you have fun with the game anyways: good for you! But honestly your post sounded to me like "We have to be fans of Bethesda because they released games i enjoyed in the past, now everybody has to buy every game they ever release!" And that's not how it works for me. Imho i don't owe them anything, except maybe my honest opinion. If they want me to buy anything they release, though, they better make sure i actually like it.

Quote

 

beside if the management don’t even give them time to polish the current Creation Engine, what make you think they will give them time and fund to make a new one,
 

 

You are aware that the management is part of Bethesda? I don't say "the developers are so bad", i say the quality of what they release as a company becomes worse, therefore i'm less entitled to buy it. It's probably not the fault of the developers, but i don't buy stuff just because the people who made it are such nice people.

Especially not if the shop owners and sellers seem like assholes.

 

 

*edit: i might have missed something about the direction your post is actually going. So here comes part 2:

You say a lot about people on the internet ranting about Bethesda. Yes, they do. They also rant a lot about leftists, right wingers, other companies, religion,... hell, if i search hard enough i'll probably find people ranting about cats. That's not only how the internet works, that's how humanity works. We (as a whole, not necessarily individually or even a majority) love to hate things, and we love to tell everybody regardless if they want to hear it. The internet just makes informations better avaivable, and obviously that includes those people don't like.

I do enjoy places like LL where that's less common, but we also do have a rant thread here, for that very reason. Somebody says things you don't like to hear? Deal with it. Nobody forces you to agree, or even to listen.

[prinyo]

1 hour ago, Nazzzgul666 said:

i'll probably find people ranting about cats.

 

 

 



 

Really? ?

 
 

 

 

 

Joke aside, there are things online that are very rarely hated. I very rarely see people complaining about TW3 and I don't remember somebody complaining about Horizon Zero Dawn (outside of metacriotic). And even if somebody does complain against them, the wave that will come at them is strong.

There are generally accepted good and bad guys and often people will use the example of the "good"guys in order to bully or guilt-shame the "bad. The way FONV/Obsidian is used against BGS after FO4. Now we'll see a big number of fans "spite buying" Outer Worlds and singing it praises. (Not sying it will be bad, just people will be willing to look for the good and forgive/ignore the bag.)

I myself posted at Beth's forum about V76 been a capitulation without a fight of BGS in front of CDPR - like in 2015 Todd played TW3 and said "we can't beat this, we need to do something completely different so people don't compare". I wrote it out of spite, but now - replaying FO4, I'm starting to wonder if there is a small part of  truth in it.

But I don't want to send the thread to discussing TW3 or Obsidian, my point is that there are indeed generally accepted good guys. And it is usually the company's own actions that would decide where it will fall - on the good or the bad side. Like now you have CDPR/Obsidian/Ubisoft(!) against EA/Bethesda/ Blizzard.

 

[Nazzzgul666]

Well, yes. If CDPR ever releases something like a creation kit, i think i'll never care about Bethesda anymore at all. But for me it's really not about the graphics, not even that much about the gameplay (imho TW has it's own flaws here and isn't necessarily better than Skyrim) but the story. What CDPR does a lot better than Beth these days, but it has been different. Well, they never were that good either, FO1/2, Baldurs Gate and imho even Neverwinter Nights were masterpieces that even my beloved Morrowind didn't exactly reach, and FONV proved that just once more, but at least once they played in the same league.

But i think that's not something impossible to fix, they just don't seem to care about it or see it as a problem at all, and that's the point where i say... fuck them. If they don't care to create what i'd like to have, i don't care what they offer. But at least they're still better than Ubisoft imo but that's not really the high ground. Honestly in some respect i hate Ubisoft even more than EA because Ubi is just so fucking console focused (including more or less flaming against PC players as thiefs & their DRM policy) that i can't even be bothered to try their games anymore if they're free to try on steam. From my recent experiences whatever they publish isn't even worth my bandwidth, leave alone my money. It'll take more than a couple of bugs more for Beth to sink that low.

 

There were days when Beth was THE good side like CDPR now, you're right that pretty much everybody just appretiates what they do, and it's totally deserved. They may not have a creation kit but they are totally fine if you take a witchers mesh and put it in Skyrim, something even Beth doesn't allow for Oblivion. They make great games and they don't annoy gamers. They even know in case of doubt it's just the best to shut up, something that seems to become rare and more important at the same time these days.

 

[Kendo 2]

What more can be said about Bethesda?  The OP wants to rekindle old arguments that have already been settled and is in full-blown denial/justification mode.  No new points were made and it's all a rehash of shit anyone can read on Reddit.  He wants an opportunity to refight lost battles and waste everyone's time until the resident Bethesda shill brigade starts attacking people and the staff locks the thread.

[DoctaSax]

5 minutes ago, Kendo 2 said:

He wants an opportunity to refight lost battles and waste everyone's time until the resident Bethesda shill brigade starts attacking people and the staff locks the thread.

Maybe if you stopped baiting people like that, we could have a civilized discussion about a video game around here every once in a while.

[FauxFurry]

12 minutes ago, Kendo 2 said:

What more can be said about Bethesda?  The OP wants to rekindle old arguments that have already been settled and is in full-blown denial/justification mode.  No new points were made and it's all a rehash of shit anyone can read on Reddit.  He wants an opportunity to refight lost battles and waste everyone's time until the resident Bethesda shill brigade starts attacking people and the staff locks the thread.

What more can be said about Bethesda? How about this: Its citizens might not appreciate any guilt by association that comes from people calling out the game company bearing the name of their fair city.

 

Is it too much to ask that people call the company by its full name or initialize it to BGS/BSW or just refer to their parent corporation? Won't someone think of the Bethesdans? Wait, is that the right word for citizens of Bethesda?

[Kendo 2]

18 minutes ago, DoctaSax said:

Maybe if you stopped baiting people like that, we could have a civilized discussion about a video game around here every once in a while.

Yes.  100% my fault considering it happens in threads I don't post in.

[Vaelorian]

The number of things that you're willing to overlook (paid mods dividing the community, anti-consumer-reviews, etc) is telling.

 

You think they're not lazy? Alright, then they must be incompetent, because even the RE-RELEASES of Skyrim, when they had the UPs and knew where some of the most major issues were, they STILL haven't fixed them.

Every company has to work with deadlines, but most of them at the very least have the decency to fix things in post launch patches. Bethesda, on the other hand, only breaks mods with each patch and barely fix anything, like the retarded child trying to help but always ending up making things a thousand times worse. They don't tell the community, "Hey, in a week we'll be releasing a patch to address this and that. Modders, please take note that this patch will likely break your works". It's radio silence all the way until it gets pushed out, then modders (many of whom are hard working people) have to scramble and create free time or have their mods remain broken for days if not weeks (which loses publicity and hurts the mod).

If that is not being lazy in communication as well, it's once more bloody incompetent.

 

Yes, they do need a new engine. It's absurd to suggest that in a world where the Frostbite 2 engine exists, Bethesda are making a good business move staying on their ancient and decrepit thing. It's not that it won't run, or won't work, but rather that even with all of it's optimizations it both looks worse and runs worse than the competition.

And there's plenty of things they could still do with their engine, many shaders and post-processing effects they could still apply, but they just leave it to their playerbase instead. They should get off their lazy asses (sorry, incompetent asses) and get an engine that's actually geared to doing what their fans want. At the very, very least they should implement those shaders themselves, rather than force us to hack them into the game which requires more precious resources and makes for an even less stable game (and if you think that Bethesda couldn't do a better internal implementation of those shaders than programs that inject them into the render then you, too, believe them incompetent).

 

About raising the DLC price: in an industry that puts out so many games, DLCs, patches, etc - it's a horrid look to raise the price of something; if you haven't noticed, the prices of games are going one way only: down.

A game is released, it enjoys a certain grace period that can be longer or shorter depending on how well or poorly it did, then it starts getting discounted. If I want the newest game, I'll have to pay 60$. If I want a game that's been out for a while, I'll pay 20$, 10$ or even 5$ if the sale is good. Raising a price goes against industry standards and tells fans who were hoping to purchase it when it got discounted: screw you poor people.

It's also a blatant admission that they've nothing else they think they can make money off of, and that they need money badly. Well, too bloody bad. Because once again they're incompetent, because saying the words "don't like it, don't buy it" is the ABSOLUTE WORST thing you can possibly do when trying to sell something.

 

You think I don't want to lose Bethesda's games? You're wrong. Far as I'm concerned, Bethesda can crash and burn and I'll be right there pouring more gasoline on the flaming mess.

They lost any kind of good will I ever had to them when they tried to introduce paid mods into Skyrim - a game that had already been out for several years at the time, and suddenly they just couldn't help themselves anymore and wanted some of those sweet, sweet micro-transactions.

Hell, even in the hypothetical world wherein I would be someone who pirates games, which I am very much not, I wouldn't even pirate Bethesda's games anymore. They're a broken mess and I'm better off playing any of the dozens of other, superior games.

 

Oh, and as a final note: no, I don't want them to focus on the story. They tried to make a moving backstory for FO4 - "Hey, look, your kid is missing". You know what that did? Shot themselves in the bloody foot. I just want them to focus on delivering a good basic platform for mods.

Because I don't play a middle-aged married man or woman that has a child. I play a trans-dimensional nymphomaniac (and sterile) elf between the ages of 19 and 21, with 4th wall breaking magic and the ability to summon black holes out of no-where because logic is something I have to deal with in my day to day life and screw it.

So since the PREMISE of the entire story was so far removed from everything they've done before (yes, familial status and having a child are MAJOR parts of a person's story, which is precisely why your character begins as a blank slate in the other games), and from everything that's normal in the industry, I just never had any interest in playing it in the first place.

[Halstrom]

16 hours ago, prinyo said:

It is very important to understand that nobody is "hating" on Bethesda because they want it to fail. People are bitching and complaining because they feel disappointed and betrayed by BGS and want the studio to return to it's former self.

Actually, there are a few selfish people on LL who have stated explicitly that they do want Beth to fail and burn to ashes whether that be for real or just trolling joy value as many of them even admit they haven't even played any Beth Fallout. They just want to deprive others of any happiness because they aren't happy people.

[Nazzzgul666]

1 hour ago, Vaelorian said:

Oh, and as a final note: no, I don't want them to focus on the story.

Not sure if that was in my direction but what i meant when i said "I want a good story and that's not impossible" was rather that they hire somebody who can write proper stories, and one or more persons who know how to design them. I.e. not that much for the character i play (although that's not necessarily that bad if done properly - seeing Gerald) but NPCs with personality, and quests that fit those NPCs.

I didn't mean to let the same persons who went straight downhill since Morrowind just do more of the same.

 

 

[jxm]

My worthless two cents; Bethesda has provided me with countless hours of content and moddable games that added on top of this. I do not care about FO76 one bit, no matter the quality. From what I read, they dropped the ball with the release and should have delayed it like a year...or just not going in that direction chasing some trend...

 

As for the "fan" reaction ... well ... it nowadays doesn't suprise me. Everything in gaming or popular culture starts more and more to create nonsensical backlash and shitstorm with every new year. I took part in shitting on Bioware for Mass Effect 3 - not really regretting it, but it also was maybe blown a bit out of proportion. They still should remake the trilogy though ^^

 

I saw fans crying over Bethesda "dumbing down" Skyrim and all ... they complained when Elder Scrolls Online was released (it sill seems to do extrmely well ^^), they cried over Fallout 3, then over Fallout 4 ... now over 76. Can't wait for the next Elder Scrolls being announced, and what Bethesda THEN did wrong again ... ^^

 

As a Star Wars fan ... this "controversy" against Bethesda isn't even the worst thing I am exposed to. Battlefront 2 .... that outrage over at REddit, the removal of lootboxes, and now the fans cry that not enough content is released...completely ignoring that they neither wanted paid DLCs nor Lootboxes, but constant updates, maps, heroes, whatnot...

 

Not to mention the "Generation Cryabouteverythingandfeelingasvictim" just complains about any new direction their franchise might take...case in point again Star Wars. or Star Trek.

 

People complain, complain, complain. And will ALWAYS come with "custoemr needs to voice their opinion" and denounce people that see it a bit more relaxed as "shills".

 

Funny enough this outrage-culture is quite the revenue-generator for Youtube-Clickbaiters, feeding on the people seeking those vids as confirmation they are on the "right" side...

 

Yes, companies have to be called out if they relased bad stuff. See Diablo-Mobile, Alien Mobile, and I swear to god I run amok if Dragon age 4 is also released as a mobile game ^^

 

But people really overdo it. Righteous complains turn into "righteous crusades", personal attacks and a poisonous atmosphere in fandom that is really, really unpleasant. Again, Bioware. It became so bad that they closed their official forums. Make of this what you will, call them cowards. But considering the often unwarranted toxic stupidity thrown at them? I can relate. Especially after Andromeda was destroyed without any rhyme or reason, killing that excellent game'S future for fans before it could take off. With much help again from clickbaiters not caring for the issue, but knowing how to generate income back on outrage-trains...

 

Its a game, its a movie, its a book, or a series...I wish people wouldn't behave as if their lives depend on this stuff...

 

Oh  boy...April comes the new season for GoT ... can't waitr for THAT hate-train leaving the station ....

[Nazzzgul666]

6 minutes ago, jxm said:

 Especially after Andromeda was destroyed without any rhyme or reason, killing that excellent game'S future for fans before it could take off.

I'm not sure what you're trying to tell here. That all the flaming was unjustified and it's an awesome game which just didn't sell enough? That the franchise didn't even have a chance to start properly? 

As far as i'm concerned, those youtubers did their job way better than Bioware and earned their money. I don't care how exhausting it was, if you take a dump on my table i won't pay for it.

[nightwing100]

5 hours ago, Nazzzgul666 said:

If you have fun with the game anyways: good for you! But honestly your post sounded to me like "We have to be fans of Bethesda because they released games i enjoyed in the past, now everybody has to buy every game they ever release!"

 

*edit: i might have missed something about the direction your post is actually going. So here comes part 2:

You say a lot about people on the internet ranting about Bethesda. Yes, they do. They also rant a lot about leftists, right wingers, other companies, religion,... hell, if i search hard enough i'll probably find people ranting about cats. That's not only how the internet works, that's how humanity works. We (as a whole, not necessarily individually or even a majority) love to hate things, and we love to tell everybody regardless if they want to hear it. The internet just makes informations better avaivable, and obviously that includes those people don't like.

I do enjoy places like LL where that's less common, but we also do have a rant thread here, for that very reason. Somebody says things you don't like to hear? Deal with it. Nobody forces you to agree, or even to listen.

I never said we have to buy every game they ever release! I didn't buy Fallout 76 too.

And I think you not only missed something about the direction of my post, you kinda took it the wrong way entirely, criticism is fine, but there has been way too many destructive rant flying around on the net recently, lots of them are either misinformation (lootboxes that doesn't exist yet or things regarding to engine) or intentionally generate negatively, such as Youtube channel's cover of Nuka Dark Rum, it was an overpriced disappointed product, not a scam that need a hundred videos about it, and many of those game news channel only report negative stuff while good news like the release of New California or how Bethesda honor their fan that pass away has barely recieve any covers.

 

4 hours ago, prinyo said:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 



 

Really? ?

 
 

 

I very rarely see people complaining about TW3 and I don't remember somebody complaining about Horizon Zero Dawn (outside of metacriotic). And even if somebody does complain against them, the wave that will come at them is strong.

 

4 hours ago, Nazzzgul666 said:

Well, yes. If CDPR ever releases something like a creation kit, i think i'll never care about Bethesda anymore at all.

That's why we modding community keep buying BGS game doesn't it? No one make game like Bethesda does, no other company can duplicated what Bethesda has made and the community they builded, they didn't just sell us a game, they sell us a game that we can make it into our own, a chance to made our own triple A game, at least that's how I feel.

 

Speaking of Witcher 3, their circle jerk are pretty terrible, who always goes around and say stuff like "CDPR should make the next every single game ever come out!!!", and I always find it annoyed they keep compare that game to Bethesda's game, so i talked with other normal Witcher fans and they agree compare these two game is pretty pointless, one is more modding and sandbox oriented, the other is more narrative focus, people should just enjoy their game without bashing one another.

[Ernest Lemmingway]

18 hours ago, nightwing100 said:

That's why we modding community keep buying BGS game doesn't it? No one make game like Bethesda does, no other company can duplicated what Bethesda has made

That in itself is part of the problem a lot of us are having with Bethesda lately. The whole reason their games are so easily modded isn't just that they give us the tools, it's because they've been using the exact same base code for their engine for twenty years now. That makes it easy for people to learn how to mod it, but it also means the games using it are plagued by issues we've been complaining about since Morrowind. Think of it as a car: no matter how much body work you put into it, that won't stop the transmission from slipping.

 

As for them helping build the modding community, they have never once contributed directly. The modding community existed long before Morrowind brought us its Construction Set (later called the Creation Kit). Yes, giving us the tools brought it to new heights. But they've also taken advantage of the modding community and poisoned it with the idea of paid mods. Not once but twice! First on Steam in '15, then again with the Creation Kit Club. Which itself raised the specter of mod theft not just by individuals but by the company itself. Look at the state of modding for Newrim or FO4 compared to Oldrim when it had been out for three years.

 

What they've done--and continue to do--with their current game just highlights sheer incompetence on so many levels it stopped being funny long ago. They've handled everything about it poorly and this time the fans are not giving them a free pass. If it was just Bethesda that was being called out I'd agree this is people engaging in a hating campaign. But it's not. Activision, EA, and Ubisoft are all in the spotlight for remarkably similar practices and issues as Bethesda.

 

Gamers are angry at how we've been treated, at the hypocritical practices of all four companies, and a few good deeds in the past cannot erase all the bad they've done. I can't even call them "good" deeds. Each time they do one, they milk it for all the PR it's worth. And a good deed done for selfish purposes is not a good deed.

[nightwing100]

6 hours ago, Halstrom said:

Actually, there are people here who have stated explicitly that they do want Beth to fail and burn to ashes whether that be for real or just trolling joy value as many of them even admit they haven't even played any Beth Fallout.

That is correct, and we got an example here.

 

7 hours ago, Vaelorian said:

The number of things that you're willing to overlook (paid mods dividing the community, anti-consumer-reviews, etc) is telling.

 

You think they're not lazy? Alright, then they must be incompetent, because even the RE-RELEASES of Skyrim, when they had the UPs and knew where some of the most major issues were, they STILL haven't fixed them.

 

If that is not being lazy in communication as well, it's once more bloody incompetent.

 

Yes, they do need a new engine. It's absurd to suggest that in a world where the Frostbite 2 engine exist

And there's plenty of things they could still do with their engine

 

About raising the DLC price: in an industry that puts out so many games, DLCs, patches, etc - it's a horrid look to raise the price of something; if you haven't noticed, the prices of games are going one way only: down.

 

You think I don't want to lose Bethesda's games? You're wrong. Far as I'm concerned, Bethesda can crash and burn and I'll be right there pouring more gasoline on the flaming mess.

I didn't overlook anything,i already pointed out all the problem I have with them, but I do not exaggerated those problem and outrage over it, as for their re-release games, they had made it very clear the reason for them to do that is because people keep buying them, and I didn't heard any major outcry from the people who bought the re-release version of their game, so the reality is that the people who did bought it doesn't really care about that much, since most people doesn't mind, and those re-release version also receive mostly positive review, there is no need to get trigger and outrage about it.

 

However I can semi- agree that Bethesda Softwork's marketing and management is kinda incompetent, and I already explained in my first post.

 

It seems to me that you don't know about much about engine, and you clearly didn't read my explanation about the engine either.

 

You said the need a new engine while the second part of your point seems to tell them to polish the current one , which is contradictory, I already state they should put in more time to fix the current one, getting new one isn't guaranteed to fix all the problem they had, and it might cause a bunch of brand new problems, and it's weird that you bring out Frostbite, since there are no evidence suggest it can do what Creation Engine do, and let's not forget how a new engine cause so many problem for Mass Effect Andromeda's development, from the developer's words, when Frostbite do the thing it's good at, it's top notch, but when you try to make it do the things it never did before, the engine is as good as a wheel less car, beside why use Frostbite when Bethesda has another one of those in house engine like id Tech which is an engine for DOOM, which is one of best graphic game of the current gen, though it most likely won't be able to do what Creation Engine does either, as I said it before already, only Creation Engine does what Creation Engine does.

 

If you actually think game price are going to drop, you are probably going to be disappoint, because the price for making triple A game keep going up each year,, there are many people speculate another major game industry collapse, but it' most likely won't going to end up like what everyone's hope for, won't be surprise if it happen end up like most of the most hated publishers remain while smaller company go out their business. just take Activision and EA for example, despite how most of "gamers" loath Call of Duty and FIFA, those titles always seems to be the best selling game each years, Extra Credits made a very good video regarding of this topic, pretty controversial, but they made a lots of good point

 

 

 

And finally the most important one, Bethesda is the reason why this community exist, without them and their games we wouldn't get so much great creation from our community, it's fine if you don't like what they're doing and feel free to vote with your wallet and spend your money somewhere else, you can leave the fandom anytime you want, but I don't believe the mindset of willing to burn down our community just because the developer did not cater to your desire is welcome here, I don't think you know what "their fans" want,, I think you know what "you" want, and perhaps some other who do agree with you, but there is no way you can represent the whole community, each of their game has their own fans, some might be more than the other, but we are all equal here (except modders I suppose).

[prinyo]

For me the White Knights and the Haters are equally damaging. Replacing the normal discussion with interpersonal battles that produce so much noise that any value from a debate is lost. And it is not the people in the fringes that are important for BGS at the moment, but the army of fans that are disappointed and confused. 

Recently a White Knight told me that the bad Metacritic score of V76 is because of "small group of haters". I explained to him that it is the silent agreement from the fanbase at large that makes that score possible. I have seen review-bombs of different magnitudes of success and it is always up to the fanbase if it will succeed or not. Seeking to shift the blame to a small group of people is not the answer to the problems BGS created for themselves. And I still hope that someday, maybe not soon, a pitchforkless discussion about the two latest big BGS games will be possible.

[FauxFurry]

14 hours ago, Ernest Lemmingway said:

That in itself is part of the problem a lot of us are having with Bethesda lately. The whole reason their games are so easily modded isn't just that they give us the tools, it's because they've been using the exact same base code for their engine for twenty years now. That makes it easy for people to learn how to mod it, but it also means the games using it are plagued by issues we've been complaining about since Morrowind. Think of it as a car: no matter how much body work you put into it, that won't stop the transmission from slipping.

 

As for them helping build the modding community, they have never once contributed directly. The modding community existed long before Morrowind brought us its Construction Set (later called the Creation Kit). Yes, giving us the tools brought it to new heights. But they've also taken advantage of the modding community and poisoned it with the idea of paid mods. Not once but twice! First on Steam in '15, then again with the Creation Kit. Which itself raised the specter of mod theft not just by individuals but by the company itself. Look at the state of modding for Newrim or FO4 compared to Oldrim when it had been out for three years.

 

What they've done--and continue to do--with their current game just highlights sheer incompetence on so many levels it stopped being funny long ago. They've handled everything about it poorly and this time the fans are not giving them a free pass. If it was just Bethesda that was being called out I'd agree this is people engaging in a hating campaign. But it's not. Activision, EA, and Ubisoft are all in the spotlight for remarkably similar practices and issues as Bethesda.

 

Gamers are angry at how we've been treated, at the hypocritical practices of all four companies, and a few good deeds in the past cannot erase all the bad they've done. I can't even call them "good" deeds. Each time they do one, they milk it for all the PR it's worth. And a good deed done for selfish purposes is not a good deed.

I find nothing disagreeable with your post other than the error which I highlighted here.

[FauxFurry]

11 hours ago, nightwing100 said:

 

If you actually think game price are going to drop, you are probably going to be disappoint, because the price for making triple A game keep going up each year,, there are many people speculate another major game industry collapse, but it' most likely won't going to end up like what everyone's hope for, won't be surprise if it happen end up like most of the most hated publishers remain while smaller company go out their business. just take Activision and EA for example, despite how most of "gamers" loath Call of Duty and FIFA, those titles always seems to be the best selling game each years, Extra Credits made a very good video regarding of this topic, pretty controversial, but they made a lots of good point

 

 

 

 

It is only fair to post a few counter-arguments to that video:

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ernest Lemmingway]

2 hours ago, FauxFurry said:

I find nothing disagreeable with your post other than the error which I highlighted here.

My bad. Fixed it in the original post.

[prinyo]

22 hours ago, jxm said:

Not to mention the "Generation Cryabouteverythingandfeelingasvictim" just complains about any new direction their franchise might take...case in point again Star Wars. or Star Trek.

This is simply incorrect. Orville takes Star Trek further than anything and is massively loved. Above I have given other examples (TW3, HZD). There are things people like to love and things they love to hate. It is not one sided.

 

There is no "outrage culture". People react to bad business, marketing or development decisions. And as things get worse, the reaction gets stronger. And it is all very predictable. With STD and Last Jedi people reacted not only to the bad decisions made for them, but also to the continuous trend of old franchises been "ruined". Orville on the other hand is an example that you can in fact modernize a franchise successfully. And not all franchises suffer, for example Bumblebee  or Infinity War were very well received.         

 

Looking ahead it is not that hard to predict which upcoming titles will be hated or loved. For example:

- Outer Worlds will be universally loved and any issue will be overlooked and ignored

- Anthem - the Bioware game where the storytelling doesn't get in the way of the gameplay; that was what the ME was sacrificed for; that has all the hated EA tricks and that so far the only good thing I have heard about it is that it has "good verticality" will probably be the next MEA/V76. Even if it is good - people want to hate it and will find the reasons to do so.

- Cyberpunk 2077 - as long as it can be played offline and any potential MP doesn't seem to hinder the SP experience that game can do no wrong.

- The Witcher (Netflix edition) - if I need to bet money I'll put it into the hated group. Only if it is really good and the general Netflix audience loves it that might be enough to counteract the resistance of the current Witcher fanbase,  There is already tension after some casting decisions were announced and I expect the fanbase will be split in two - fighting against each-other, calling each-other "racist" and SJW respectively. Just like the Dr.Who fanbase now (replace racists with sexists).

 

So there is no "outrage culture". What is happening now is that the social media is giving more and more power to the consumer and the entertainment industry is not used to that and still doesn't know how to react.

[Ernest Lemmingway]

11 minutes ago, prinyo said:

What is happening now is that the social media is giving more and more power to the consumer and the entertainment industry is not used to that and still doesn't know how to react.

Well put. Big companies have always been slow to react to the potential of new technologies because of their own conservatism and arrogance. AT&T thought cell phones would be a fad with no more than one-million subscribers back in the Eighties and they lost out big to then-small companies like Verizon. It's basic economic Darwinism: those who can change and adapt to the new ways prosper while those who can't die out.

 

Social media is only just pulling itself past being "sociopathic media" and beginning to realize its true power. Loony leftists and radical rightists alike are being called out using facts, logic, and common sense more and more often. This includes game and movie studios who have the ugly truths of their products highlighted. Unlike more traditional forms of media, they can't exert any real (legal) influence on bloggers, YouTubers, and writers of independent articles. Just like the Internet itself it's a dispersed, decentralized network with no single head to cut off.