Let's talk about Bethesda

[nightwing100]

On 1/21/2019 at 9:54 AM, Ernest Lemmingway said:

As for them helping build the modding community, they have never once contributed directly. The modding community existed long before Morrowind brought us its Construction Set (later called the Creation Kit). Yes, giving us the tools brought it to new heights. But they've also taken advantage of the modding community and poisoned it with the idea of paid mods. Not once but twice! First on Steam in '15, then again with the Creation Kit Club. Which itself raised the specter of mod theft not just by individuals but by the company itself. Look at the state of modding for Newrim or FO4 compared to Oldrim when it had been out for three years.

 

Gamers are angry at how we've been treated, at the hypocritical practices of all four companies, and a few good deeds in the past cannot erase all the bad they've done. I can't even call them "good" deeds. Each time they do one, they milk it for all the PR it's worth. And a good deed done for selfish purposes is not a good deed.

I don't think it's fair to discredit their part just because they did not contributed directly, not many company willing to support a modding community, I can only image how much work it need to be done to make the tool we are using, take CDPR for example since they are the poster child of the "gamer community", they promise they would provide RedKit for advance modding and end up not delivered.

 

And I'm not sure if you know what you're talking about, Bethesda reach out for fans that's having a hard time in their life for many times and they always keep a low key with it, even after I dig out so much news to put out the first post I made I still manage to miss one, Bethesda sent a sick fan an Xbox One S console and a copy of Skyrim Special Edition (both signed by Todd Howard), they never publicly announce those things they did, so if you tell me this is all just for PR, I don't believe you, 

On 1/21/2019 at 12:18 AM, prinyo said:

About Youtube - I don't see those videos as "hate" videos, I see them as group therapy for the many people who feel betrayed by V76.

15 hours ago, prinyo said:

Looking ahead it is not that hard to predict which upcoming titles will be hated or loved. For example:

- Outer Worlds will be universally loved and any issue will be overlooked and ignored

- Anthem - the Bioware game where the storytelling doesn't get in the way of the gameplay; that was what the ME was sacrificed for; that has all the hated EA tricks and that so far the only good thing I have heard about it is that it has "good verticality" will probably be the next MEA/V76. Even if it is good - people want to hate it and will find the reasons to do so.

- Cyberpunk 2077 - as long as it can be played offline and any potential MP doesn't seem to hinder the SP experience that game can do no wrong.

- The Witcher (Netflix edition) - if I need to bet money I'll put it into the hated group. Only if it is really good and the general Netflix audience loves it that might be enough to counteract the resistance of the current Witc

her fanbase,  There is already tension after some casting decisions were announced and I expect the fanbase will be split in two - fighting against each-other, calling each-other "racist" and SJW respectively. Just like the Dr.Who fanbase now (replace racists with sexists).

 

So there is no "outrage culture". What is happening now is that the social media is giving more and more power to the consumer and the entertainment industry is not used to that and still doesn't know how to react.

Social media does giving more and more power to the consumer, but it's an double edge sword, too often does it fall into multiple echo chambers (Reddit punish unpopular opinion and Youtube subscribers usually share the same mindset ),these group seems like a club at first but as time goes on it's slow evolve into angry cult that will lash out on anyone disagree with them, especially when there is a monetization involve, there are many people like to exaggerating the actual problem for personal benefit or just want to see thing burn and gloat about it, I was with Comicsgate at one point, similar things happened which I would rather not discuss, 

 

I believe those outrage culture does exist, but it's not because of the controversy happened in the first place, it's because some people intentionally make it worst.

[prinyo]

2 hours ago, nightwing100 said:

Reddit punish unpopular opinion

You might think so if you only concentrate on specific subs. And even that is changing. The individual subs can become echo chambers (logical given that they connect people with a shared passion for something) but if you are only concentrating on specific subs you don't really have a view of the communication going on. Like if you always choose to visit a meeting of vegans and ignore the meetings of meat eaters you will have a twisted perspective on the big picture. You seem to choose to concentrate on specific voices and circles as it conforms to an idea you already have and choose to ignore everything else.

Take V76 for example. If you visit /r/Fallout and if you visit /r/fo76 you will mostly see two opposing sides. But if you follow them both you can get a fuller picture about the sentiment of the fanbase and what the views on the hot topics are. If you choose to concentrate on one of them only then you are limiting your point of view and can easily assume that everybody is a hater or everybody is a fanboy.

And even this is not so black and white anymore. As @Ernest Lemmingway pointed out " Social media is only just pulling itself past being "sociopathic media" and beginning to realize its true power. " and the extreme/misleading views "are being called out using facts, logic, and common sense more and more often. " It is more and more often that you see posts expressing views contrary to the view of the sub's "hive mind" been quite upvoted if well articulated. It is more and more common to see posts with opposing views side by side on the front ("hot") page of a sub with similar numbers of upvotes. This is a trend that for me means that whatever form of "outrage culture" used to exist it is getting smaller and smaller.

 

The youtubers do indeed follow the sentiments of their viewers, but it is not the youtubers creating them. They are just the symptom, not the reason for a sentiment to exist. Look at what happened with V76. After the Greenbrier event several youtubers uploaded positive videos. But under all of those videos almost all comments were negative towards the game. At some point youtubers realized that the community at large wants to hate V76 and they simply delivered what the viewers want. I find it remarkable that to this day the "hate" videos for V76 get more than 20k likes for less than a day. But this is because the community wants those videos. The youtubers simply deliver what the consumers want, something that the gaming industry has forgotten they can also do. And yes, people generally want to hate V76. But thhey also generally love to love other things, as I gave examples in previous posts (example).

 

So again, if we look objectively there is no "outrage culture". As I said - people are just reacting to negative trends and events. And the worse they get, the stronger the reaction is. And it has gotten really bad. Making BGS release a "live service" MP game with fake MT currency integrated into the gameplay is an extremely worrying event. it means that the worrying trends in the gaming business are growing extremely fast and "nothing is sacred anymore". I personally find the magnitude of the backlash against V76 perfectly proportionate to the seriousness of the situation.

 

[Ernest Lemmingway]

10 hours ago, nightwing100 said:

I don't think it's fair to discredit their part just because they did not contributed directly, not many company willing to support a modding community, I can only image how much work it need to be done to make the tool we are using, take CDPR for example since they are the poster child of the "gamer community", they promise they would provide RedKit for advance modding and end up not delivered.

 

And I'm not sure if you know what you're talking about, Bethesda reach out for fans that's having a hard time in their life for many times and they always keep a low key with it, even after I dig out so much news to put out the first post I made I still manage to miss one, Bethesda sent a sick fan an Xbox One S console and a copy of Skyrim Special Edition (both signed by Todd Howard), they never publicly announce those things they did, so if you tell me this is all just for PR, I don't believe you

Bugthesda gave us the tools to do modding, but nothing more. That's all they did. Sites like the Nexus or LL have not received any kind of official or unofficial aid from the company. Much like how 3D Realms released the tools needed to make custom levels and include custom artwork with Duke Nukem 3-D, they just gave us the tools and that's it. The modding community does owe them a thank you for launching the Creation Kit for their games, but the modding community itself was built up by people who have nothing to do with the company. They tried to monetize mods back in '15 on Steam, and when that blew up in their faces they just shifted to mods for those who can't access them otherwise. They only care about mods as they relate to making them money, which the Creation Club more than proves.

 

I do agree about CDPR. But I'm not defending them. I don't particularly care about them, actually.

 

I'll concede I'm not as up to what Bugthesda is doing that's "charitable" as some people. It still doesn't make up for what they've done and continue to do now. Plus I remain skeptical that it was truly a charitable act by the company. That's how individuals work, but not whole companies. At any time I expect them to start harping on those acts as proof that they're not all bad, which would completely invalidate them. I'm a cynical, embittered person lemming who has seen too many companies use "charitable acts" as a wag the dog maneuver to draw attention away from other things they're doing or as an equally cynical move to save themselves when things do go bad. It's pointless to argue this anymore because I can't be convinced otherwise.

 

And I guess this needs to be explained: I am not taking one side or the other because I'm a "fan" or a "hater." I'm playing the devil's advocate by looking at the plain facts and my own experiences. I don't even care that much about the current game as a game. I do care about the deceptions, the fraud, and the laziness. If they don't straighten up and get back to what made them so popular to begin with, they'll drive themselves out of business. I don't want them to go bankrupt. That's why I harp on their mistakes. So they'll know what needs to be changed. Unfortunately I'm also equally cynical about them doing what they need to do. Not because folks like Todd Howard don't want to change, but because they're slaves of a group that really doesn't care about the consumers. I've seen it happen before, and not just with video game studios, and in each case the company either died out, had to start over from scratch to stay alive, or was bought out by another company and dissolved.

[nightwing100]

10 hours ago, prinyo said:

and the extreme/misleading views "are being called out using facts, logic, and common sense more and more often. " It is more and more often that you see posts expressing views contrary to the view of the sub's "hive mind" been quite upvoted if well articulated. It is more and more common to see posts with opposing views side by side on the front ("hot") page of a sub with similar numbers of upvotes. This is a trend that for me means that whatever form of "outrage culture" used to exist it is getting smaller and smaller.

 

So again, if we look objectively there is no "outrage culture". As I said - people are just reacting to negative trends and events. And the worse they get, the stronger the reaction is. And it has gotten really bad. Making BGS release a "live service" MP game with fake MT currency integrated into the gameplay is an extremely worrying event. it means that the worrying trends in the gaming business are growing extremely fast and "nothing is sacred anymore". I personally find the magnitude of the backlash against V76 perfectly proportionate to the seriousness of the situation.

 

Okay ,lI'm going to list a few tantrum that has been throwing around by people now and then, let's see if you think with those criticism are fair.

 

1.Lots of people think Bethesda being incompetence for using Creation Engine because it is base on Gamebryo, and think it should be replace by other engine ike Unreal or id Tech, while not knowing that every game engien is build upon older on and that other engine is very unlikely to do what Creation Engine can.

 

2.People accuse Bethesda being lazy for unable to polish their games and relies on the community to fix it for them, while overlook at the efforts and details they put into their games and how understaffed they were, also the fact that it was community's own will to fix it for them.

 

3.Accuse them for making pretty bad games...while spend thousands of hours into it.

 

4.Speak against paid mod while ignore the facts some of senior modders really wish to get a little compensation from the hard wrok the made.

 

One example was prideslayer here on loverslab, now I could be wrong he might still be around, and I never actually talked to the guy before, but I remeber he was the one who commonly reach out to other Sexout modders and help thigns around, here's part of his last post in 2015 before he seems to leave the modding secne.

 

Quote

If you're so small-minded and jealous that you just can't stand the thought of someone making a little money, doing something they enjoy, because others are doing similar things for free -- you're part of the problem. A world where every modder could quit their day job to work full time on their mods sounds like a great place to me.

 

By and large I don't expect players/users to understand or agree with most of what I've said. However, in this case, their opinions don't matter to me even slightly. This is about mods, utilities, and those that create them. All of them deserve compensation for their efforts, and few if any actually get it.

 

Modders SHOULD understand though. We all work countless hours on this hobby and our reward is generally a few "thank yous", and endless bug reports and feature requests to sift through. If one of "us" decides "hey, it would be nice to make a couple bucks off this if I can" then I fully support that decision. Christ I don't even work on my friends computers or cars for free -- I at least expect dinner and some beer out of the deal.

 

I won't be responding to replies or reading this thread any further. As I've already said in "private", my active projects (SexoutNG, NX, FOMM, Bodyslide) are on indefinite hiatus because of the immature and childish "community" responses to modders who chose to participate in this system. The system isn't perfect, but it's the first of it's kind, and it deserves time to get the kinks worked out.

 

Maybe my own project licenses may be changing as a result, at least for three of them -- I don't own the copyrights for FOMM so have no authority to change the license there. Maybe I'm completely done modding or writing modding community software for free. I haven't decided yet.

 

Thanks "community."

5.Blaming Bethesda for the whole Nuka Dark Rum debacle, while it wasn't even made by Bethesda.

 

6.Demanding fire of Todd Howard because of choice he didn't made or things he didn't do, like switching canvas with nylon or the ticket information leak, and thow all the contribution he has made before out of window.

 

I'm not saying those backlash are not deserved, but I really don't think it's anywhere near perfectly proportionate.

 

I want to make this clear, my true intention here is not really to defend Bethesda as a company, but to preserve our modding community, it's kinda like politic, you might not agree with everything your government been doing but that does not mean you want your government get burn into the ground, same as I do not wish destruction upon our community ,people at the modding community are not the same as gamers community out there, I bet most of people into mods do love the game they're modding and aren't appreciate the negativity some people keep inject into it, so just don't go throwing tantrum wherever you go, if you want to lash out go to reddit, youtube or other platforms, keep the toxicity out of sites like Loverslab or Nexus, toxic community does not attract people into modding.

[Ernest Lemmingway]

46 minutes ago, nightwing100 said:

4.Speak against paid mod while ignore the facts some of senior modders really wish to get a little compensation from the hard wrok the made.

This one stands out to me. Veteran modders who have earned the right to compensation are not the issue most of us have with paid mods. It's a company who already got our money trying to sell us sub-par "mini-DLC" that's the problem. If Bugthesda really wants to make more money off of an extant game, they can make another full-sized DLC for it. Otherwise it's an insult to modders and users alike. Especially those modders who are contracted by them and get a flat payment regardless of how well or poorly the mods they make actually sell on the Creation Club. That's not "sharing" with the modding community. Especially since the mods are slapdash works that take a couple of hours at most to make and have a release rate of about five every six months.

 

And people like @prideslayer don't have a right to complain. He was speaking for himself when the overwhelming majority of his fellow modders were against paid mods on Steam. Even @Loogie, the person he agrees with in his last post, countered his argument. A donation system, or even a Patreon account for those who put in a lot of time and effort, deserve a little compensation for their work. I support a couple of modders who post here on Patreon myself. This particular argument has been done to death in other threads already.

[DoctaSax]

2 hours ago, Ernest Lemmingway said:

And people like @prideslayer don't have a right to complain.

If you skim through that thread, there's plenty for modders to complain about: the massive, blatant disrespect towards us from many of the people who wrote in it, and other ones like it all over the net. It's the users who own the mods, not the people who made them. It's the people who contribute who're the parasites, not the people who don't. It's the veteran modders with many essential mods under their belt who signed up for that thing who're the traitors, not the people who brought out the pitchforks. And so on. Beth didn't do all that, the users did.

[prinyo]

13 hours ago, nightwing100 said:

Okay ,lI'm going to list a few tantrum that has been throwing around by people now and then, let's see if you think with those criticism are fair.

You misunderstand my point. Yes, people want to hate V76. As they wanted to hate the paid mods. Yes, the discussion can get too emotional and things will be exaggerated as people feel passionate about those things and generally react badly when they feel betrayed.

 

What I objected to was the term "outrage culture", the idea that people want to hate everything and the accusation that people need to feel as victims. This shifts the blame for the bad managerial decisions to the customers and is generally wrong as there are enough examples about things that people really do like and appreciate. What you call "outrage culture" is the reaction of the fans against aggressive destructive trends in the industry. We can discuss if the magnitude of outrage is adequate or not, as I said I personally believe it is. Actually I believe it is not strong enough as it is still not enough to provoke a meaningful response by Bethesda 2 months after V76 has dropped. As I said - if something will be hated or loved is a result of decisions made by it's creators, not the customers.

 

You only prove my point that you are looking for extreme examples that work with your pre-existing idea that there are haters everywhere and you are even looking at those extremes with a magnifying glass. Dusting out a 4 years old thread only proves that the discussions on social media only get more mature with time.

For example the topic about the engine. It is far from black and white. In fact if you follow the discussion you will see that most fans are in favor of the current engine. There was an actual discussion about that - with opposing views and arguments and it is safe to say that  the engine has more fans than haters. (I'm following closely the discussions on Reddit, Youtube and beth's forums).

Or the bottles - what people say is that Bethesda should have exercised some sort of control over the 3rd party and that it is very unlikely BethSoft didn't know it will be a plastic casing. What about that sounds unfair and outrageous to you?

The other points are similarly taken out of context or exaggerated.

 

Quote

same as I do not wish destruction upon our community

V76 symbolizes the biggest threat to the modding community. Online service games, fake MT currencies integrated into the gameplay, the publishers controlling everything you can or can not do with your copy of the game. There are many things at stake and V76 proves that the threats against the modding culture are growing way faster and are spreading way more aggressively than people expected.

 

tl;dr: Of course you can find extreme views and people who want Bethesda to crash and burn. Of course you can choose to believe those views are representative of the general sentiment. But the fact is that the vast majority of people who post and discuss are confused and disappointed fans and really want BGS to succeed and return to it's old self.

[Ernest Lemmingway]

On 1/22/2019 at 8:25 PM, DoctaSax said:

If you skim through that thread, there's plenty for modders to complain about: the massive, blatant disrespect towards us from many of the people who wrote in it, and other ones like it all over the net. It's the users who own the mods, not the people who made them. It's the people who contribute who're the parasites, not the people who don't. It's the veteran modders with many essential mods under their belt who signed up for that thing who're the traitors, not the people who brought out the pitchforks. And so on. Beth didn't do all that, the users did.

Good points. I was just using prideslayer because that's the person who was referenced.

[nightwing100]

On 1/23/2019 at 9:30 PM, Alkpaz said:

Speaking from someone who does not support LL, did you "at least" support Arthmoor? ElminsterAU? or any author on LL? Before you even talk about that, how about you walk the walk first? You see, you would have far more credibility if you followed the examples of Ernest Lemmingway, prinyo, or many others who support LL, my main issue is that people who start talking about "paid mods" and "donations" usually don't do either. Websites do not exist off a Giving Tree (Shel Silverstein) and if they do, they end up just like that at the very end, a stump, not able to do anything further. So when I hear "the community", I do tend to roll my eyes, since very few (fractions of a percent) donate, at least on the Beth end of things. 

I will admit my contribution towards to the modding community might not be as much as someone else, but I did the best I could (mostly on nexus), when it comes to purchasing habit I tend to avoid credit card method, if there is more convenient way to support mod author I would likely help more, and the recent Patreon quiting trend certainly doesn't help that either,my point is that I do wish the well being of modders while someone could not care any less about the integrity of this community, maybe you won't see my point, or maybe you could not care any less about it, either way I don't think I appreciate it as if you think I don't deserve to speak my mind.

 

And I check a bit you didn't even made any mods, at least I did not see any, but I do, so what make you think you have much better credibility than me that is enough to discredit me? Just because you back Loverslab's pateron?

 

On 1/23/2019 at 8:55 PM, prinyo said:

You misunderstand my point. Yes, people want to hate V76. As they wanted to hate the paid mods. Yes, the discussion can get too emotional and things will be exaggerated as people feel passionate about those things and generally react badly when they feel betrayed.

 

tl;dr: Of course you can find extreme views and people who want Bethesda to crash and burn. Of course you can choose to believe those views are representative of the general sentiment. But the fact is that the vast majority of people who post and discuss are confused and disappointed fans and really want BGS to succeed and return to it's old self.

I think we do understand part of each other's arguments, we view this differently could because I did not see all the things you saw and neither did you see the all things I saw, it's a big fanbase and there are just way too many voices out there we could not heard them all.

[Ernest Lemmingway]

Given what's going on with their current game, the civil lawsuit over refunds and the issues over the "official products" and "nonpologies" for how they were handled, and their heavy handed reactions to people exploiting things they themselves haven't properly addressed, Bethesda seems to be in trouble. That's just my guess going on sales figures, public outcry, and now a mass buyback of unsold copies of their latest game since no one outside of Bethesda Softworks or ZeniMax Media knows what's really going on. Without hard facts we can't piece together the whole story. That's what irritates me most.

 

Is Todd Howard guilty as people think or is he being forced to toe the company line? In the past I'd have said guilty, but now I'm not sure anymore. Pete Hines has demonstrated his outright hostility towards fans in numerous tweets, Emil what's-his-nuts is a lousy writer for video games and the ones he's worked on show this, and ZeniMax? They're not a true game studio, they're more like Activision is to Blizzard or EA to BioWare, Visceral Games, and others they've bought up and exploited until their subsidiary was bankrupted. How much of what's going on ZeniMax's fault rather than Bethesda's? Again, we can't know for certain. Privately traded companies don't have to tell non-shareholders anything.

[nightwing100]

6 hours ago, Ernest Lemmingway said:

Given what's going on with their current game, the civil lawsuit over refunds and the issues over the "official products" and "nonpologies" for how they were handled, and their heavy handed reactions to people exploiting things they themselves haven't properly addressed, Bethesda seems to be in trouble. That's just my guess going on sales figures, public outcry, and now a mass buyback of unsold copies of their latest game since no one outside of Bethesda Softworks or ZeniMax Media knows what's really going on. Without hard facts we can't piece together the whole story. That's what irritates me most.

 

Is Todd Howard guilty as people think or is he being forced to toe the company line? In the past I'd have said guilty, but now I'm not sure anymore. Pete Hines has demonstrated his outright hostility towards fans in numerous tweets, Emil what's-his-nuts is a lousy writer for video games and the ones he's worked on show this, and ZeniMax? They're not a true game studio, they're more like Activision is to Blizzard or EA to BioWare, Visceral Games, and others they've bought up and exploited until their subsidiary was bankrupted. How much of what's going on ZeniMax's fault rather than Bethesda's? Again, we can't know for certain. Privately traded companies don't have to tell non-shareholders anything.

Don't forget how their other's titles like Dishonored, The Evil Within and Wolfenstein also seems to keep flopping.

 

As for Emil Pagliarulo I really believe most people doesn't think he is a bad writer, it's just that Fallout's story writing hold a very high standard and people expect the best out of it, I mean if you play enough video games and watch enough of movies you surely saw far worse writing out there.

 

3 hours ago, Alkpaz said:

Putting this here: 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I don't know if that is real, but I won't be surprise if it is, I always have issue with the merchandise department of Bethesda.

 

 

However they did still manage to make something good sometime, like this Modern Icons Fallout 4 T-60 Power Armor Statue is very well made, I bought one as well, the price was pretty reasonable too, around 70 dollars if i recall it corretly.

[prinyo]

10 hours ago, nightwing100 said:

Don't forget how their other's titles like Dishonored, The Evil Within and Wolfenstein also seems to keep flopping.

I believe most people mean BGS when they talk about "Bethesda" as a developer. And this thread is also about BGS.

 

I personally believe (I might be wrong) that there is not a big overlap between the core fans of BGS and of the other developers under the BethSoft umbrella. The BGS games are (were) quite different and attract different crowds.

[Guest]

On 1/24/2019 at 11:45 AM, Alkpaz said:

Putting this here: 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

my response to it lol 

 

seriously, bethesda should stop doing it to their fans. Turning into Square Enix lol

 

whats nexts, selling Fallout 4 or 76 desserts that cost $1000?  https://kotaku.com/a-final-fantasy-wine-set-for-only-950-1791816059

 

but you get my point   last edit- I'll stop my raddle and hate. 

 

Spoiler

 

[nightwing100]

2 hours ago, roger11 said:

 

my response to it lol 

 

seriously, bethesda should stop doing it to their fans. Turning into Square Enix lol

 

whats nexts, selling Fallout 4 or 76 desserts that cost $1000?  https://kotaku.com/a-final-fantasy-wine-set-for-only-950-1791816059

 

but you get my point   last edit- I'll stop my raddle and hate. 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Howard is very unlikely to has anything to do with this, I don't get it why people insist on associate everything with him.

 

If it's a joke, it not funny anymore, especially when someone started to make threat and harmful getsure around recently.

[nightwing100]

22 hours ago, prinyo said:

I believe most people mean BGS when they talk about "Bethesda" as a developer. And this thread is also about BGS.

 

I personally believe (I might be wrong) that there is not a big overlap between the core fans of BGS and of the other developers under the BethSoft umbrella. The BGS games are (were) quite different and attract different crowds.

That is incorrect, because I started this thread and in the first post I talked about Bethesda's problem as a whole company include id, Arcane, Machine Game and not just BGS.

 

I think you're neither right or wrong on the second part though.

[prinyo]

12 hours ago, nightwing100 said:

[...]

This was an attempt on my side to prevent the discussion about if the SP games are dying based on the lower sales of the listed games.

So far in this thread you are following closely the White Knight Talking Points:

 

1. Imply that the discussions are pointless and should be ignored as they are dominated by people who love to hate everything and to feel like victims ("outrage culture" is the term used to silence the customers by devaluing any feedback)

2. Point to the prices of the games and how the publishers will soon starve to death if they don't exploit their customers with MT and other shenanigans.

3. Say that SP are dying anyway giving an example with a specific list of games. This is what I assume is the point you tried to make involving the other ZeniBeth studios.

 

So if we can somehow agree that the SP games are not dying out and there is still a big market for them and the bad performance of specific games can have other reasons, then we can move on to the next Talking Point. That I assume will be "creative freedom and passion" and how the studio (BGS) suddenly decided they want to make an MP game and the suits at BethSoft agreed out of respect for the creative independence. If we could skip the "player choice" point that would be great. The sooner we reach the end of the list the sooner we can have an honest discussion about the current situation.

 

 

Added: I just want to make clear that this post is not personally against you. I'm just trying to prevent the situation that we go in circles discussing points that have been discussed to death and instead have a meaningful discussion about the situation.  There are some interesting points in your posts, for example the modality of the BGS games vs the closed nature of other games.

[D_ManXX2]

why you are you even click baiting other thread about fallout 76 where an instant lock why is this one still open ? let me lock this one up too.

 

i like to offer any mods to lock this thread before i do the same back why my previously thread where locked.

 

https://www.loverslab.com/topic/100392-fallout-76-announcement-bethesda-live-stream/

 

This is why this thread needs to be locked.

[D_ManXX2]

On 1/20/2019 at 9:39 PM, DoctaSax said:

Maybe if you stopped baiting people like that, we could have a civilized discussion about a video game around here every once in a while.

How was his answer bait are you forgetting what already happend in the other thread ? or do i have to point that out too ?

 

how is that baiting if he is only pointing out what already been said the user from the 1st post was doing the exact same thing blatantly knowing what his post was going to be about.

[Ernest Lemmingway]

The year is young and there are still ongoing issues with Bethesda that haven't been resolved. In fact one of the big ones may not be resolved this year. But what's going on does not bode well. The latest update for their current game actually has folks on the game's sub-Reddit asking them to stop adding new features and focus on fixing the game. An MMO can't afford to lose too many paid subscribers or it turns into a massive money-sink. But the company doesn't seem to be listening to what the players want and that's just going to alienate more and more people.

 

Which really does beg the question of why they aren't fixing the known issues? It's just common sense to get the current stuff stable before adding more.

[prinyo]

I would like to offer 2 arguments against locking the thread if it stays civil and not over-dramatic.

1. The present state and future of Bethesda is important for a community build around BGS games. I believe it only helps to have more people adding their point of view, not silencing the conversation.

2. Soon it will be impossible for LL to pretend that nothing is happening and V76 doesn't exist as the moment the private servers are released there will be players here asking for mods.

 

I don't believe this thread is doing any harm ATM, but of course it is up to the mods to decide what to do.

[DoctaSax]

3 minutes ago, D_ManXX2 said:

How was his answer bait are you forgetting what already happend in the other thread ? or do i have to point that out too ?

"resident bethesda shill brigade" is clearly bait.

Also, I'm confused, why do you suggest you are going to point out something after you just have?

[nightwing100]

3 hours ago, prinyo said:

1. Imply that the discussions are pointless and should be ignored as they are dominated by people who love to hate everything and to feel like victims ("outrage culture" is the term used to silence the customers by devaluing any feedback)

2. Point to the prices of the games and how the publishers will soon starve to death if they don't exploit their customers with MT and other shenanigans.

3. Say that SP are dying anyway giving an example with a specific list of games. This is what I assume is the point you tried to make involving the other ZeniBeth studios.

Huh? No you said this thread is only about BGS, and I merely point out that this thread is also about Bethesda's other studios since I clearly bring it out in my first post, I did not imply anything, I bring out that Extra Credits video and I said I think they made a lots of good points, I didn't said I agree everything about it, I just think those are something worth considering, and I never said SP are dying, I just point out the fact that multiplayer games are more lucrative then single player one, and that's not the only point my topic involving the other ZeniBeth studios, I did bring up the review policy, the redshell controversy and that stupid Wolfenstein 2 advertisement.

 

2 hours ago, Ernest Lemmingway said:

The year is young and there are still ongoing issues with Bethesda that haven't been resolved

Well good news is Beth won the Westworld mobile lawsuit against Warner Bros Games recently, now I don't care what others think about this, I'm glad Bethe won this one because WB are far worse than Bethesda, also consider the statement they gave when the lawsuit happened.

 

Quote

As one of the world’s leading creators of intellectual property, including the ground-breaking television series Westworld, Warner Bros. has a deep respect for intellectual property rights. As such, the assertions by Bethesda Softworks that Warner’s Westworld mobile game improperly used source code from Bethesda’s Fallout Shelter are as surprising as they are unsubstantiated. Warner Bros. has been assured by the game developer, Behaviour Interactive, that Bethesda’s allegations are untrue and that none of Bethesda’s code was used in the Westworld game. Moreover, contrary to Bethesda’s baseless accusation, Warner Bros. at no time “induced” Behavior to use the Fallout Shelter code in Westworld.

 

[Ernest Lemmingway]

22 hours ago, nightwing100 said:

Well good news is Beth won the Westworld mobile lawsuit against Warner Bros Games recently, now I don't care what others think about this, I'm glad Bethe won this one because WB are far worse than Bethesda, also consider the statement they gave when the lawsuit happened.

That's not what I was referring to, actually, though I did hear about it. The civil lawsuit over Bethesda's refusal to honor refunds is. Remember that this has drawn the Federal Trade Commission into investigating. At the same time, the FTC is under mounting pressure regarding loot boxes in other games. They may even get pressured into regulating microtransactions as well. Especially since they're also investigating other companies who made billions on such. It would fit the usual (over)reaction of a government to a problem.

 

As for the WB thing, a $20 million settlement may not do much to offset the potential losses and fines levied if they do lose the civil lawsuit. Certainly a lot of ex-fans (myself included) are just fed up with their antics and are never again buying anything made or published by BethSoft and their subsidiaries.

 

Given everything that's going with Bethesda and other game studios, with social media tearing all of them apart when they release something that's sub-standard, and the numerous financial lawsuits with the biggest studios, we're poised to see some serious changes to how all video game companies operate. Whether those changes are good, bad, or a mix--I'm thinking the last--is what I care about most. What happens with Bethesda could easily be what will happen to others when all is said and done.

[nightwing100]

1 hour ago, Ernest Lemmingway said:

As for the WB thing, a $20 million settlement may not do much to offset the potential losses and fines levied if they do lose the civil lawsuit. Certainly a lot of ex-fans (myself included) are just fed up with their antics and are never again buying anything made or published by BethSoft and their subsidiaries.

I doubt that would be the case, player's wallet has a memory of a fish, as long as their next game is good, people will buy it, like no one talked about Capcom made people watch  commerical in Street Fighter V anymore now that Resident Evil 2 Remake has release and everyone is praising it, or Rockstar try to shut down mod feel like a distant memory and everyone just talk about how good Red Dead Redemption 2 is.

 

And I honestly doubt people will miss out Doom Eternal just because of Fallout 76.

[hot888]

Full disclosure.  Have not played FO76 since the beta.  The retailer I purchased the game from was willing to refund if I returned the game before official release so I refunded the game.  Playing the game was a broken mess and I found it personally boring.  Getting to the heart of hate I think many feel personally betrayed by the company not because they hate BGS but because they love Fallout. 

 

Our greatest weapons comprise of our voices and wallets but if you spent your money and can't get a refund then the screaming only gets worst.  Taking the game away from steam then introducing the shady practice of no refunds because you downloaded the game.  Making your own launcher saying this way you are able to directly deal with the customer improving the experience.  Then toss in the poor communication that BGS seem to be masters at.  Even Pete Hines has gone MIA with all the controversy and I haven't heard anything really from Todd Howard.  His twitter is just retweets from BGS or Fallout.  Honestly the entire public relations team must be asleep until a problem nears critical mass.  Only then do the blaring alarms seem to wake them up.  They seriously need to jump on these issues and honestly work the problem before it can gain momentum.  Asus trolls many retail sites watching for negative reviews of their products.  When such a review shows up a representative immediately opens up a dialog to resolve the issue.  That is just good PR.

 

Next about the BGS marketing department....   I mean really!!!  Canvas shortage?  Maybe look at my last paragraph on communication and honestly working the problem.  In all seriousness the marketing department needs a harsh once over.  During the promotion when they brought in Youtubers to play FO76 they gave away better merch than the paying customers got.  Some even got free Power Armor Editions to boot.  Here is an idea that my company does.  We take products to our family and friends to get honest input.  I tell you a wife/husband/partner/family member can be brutal with that honesty.  I did a shirt design and was really proud until the prototypes were criticized.  Only then did all the flaws in the actual material and stitching make me move to a better vendor.  I am also an amateur author and nothing hurts more than having someone pick apart a book you spent years writing.  But you take that and get better.

 

Lastly multiplayer games are going to get more scrutiny than single player games.  Games like this feed on the competitive nature in people and bugs are less likely to be forgiven.  I once shouted out who is going to win the standing still game in a battle royal lobby.  Hilariously nearly everyone stopped moving.  We are a competitive species and a simple glitch screwing that up is proverbial gasoline to the fire.  If BGS would have said "Hey we are not as ready as you deserve.  We are sorry but the game needs to be delayed so we can fix it properly before launch.  Until then we will run periodic beta programs."  Seriously I would have cheered for them.

 

Personally I have been anxiously awaiting Skyrim Together and when hearing about FO76 hoped it would be similar to FONV just with friends.  Also while Bethesda has done some good releases in the past so have EA and many others.  If getting all this criticism from the fans who love the franchise and want it to be successful is toxic then the franchise is already lost.