Devious Followers (8 June 2019)

[Cieris]

Did some tests, 2.0c works perfectly with Slavetats 1.2.3 but not with 1.3.0. Nothing else changed other than the Slavetats version, there must be some sort of incompatibility.

[aventadorlp670]

New game, new saves, still rebuilt the Device Settings.json all the time....anyone got a better luck?   i'm starting to doubt if there is something wrong with my PC...

as i edit the JSON after it got rebuilt, that doesn't effect the game, still give me the devices which i already deleted in the JSON before.

[politicpolice]

49 minutes ago, aventadorlp670 said:

New game, new saves, still rebuilt the Device Settings.json all the time....anyone got a better luck?   i'm starting to doubt if there is something wrong with my PC...

as i edit the JSON after it got rebuilt, that doesn't effect the game, still give me the devices which i already deleted in the JSON before.

Once you've edited the json, right click the file and mark as "read only". Will stop it from being overridden.

[Lozeak]

1 hour ago, aventadorlp670 said:

New game, new saves, still rebuilt the Device Settings.json all the time....anyone got a better luck?   i'm starting to doubt if there is something wrong with my PC...

as i edit the JSON after it got rebuilt, that doesn't effect the game, still give me the devices which i already deleted in the JSON before.

I'll work it out eventually, it is something experimental I'm trying so it's likely on my side.

 

Do remember the script only effects devices that come from Devious Followers.

[aventadorlp670]

30 minutes ago, politicpolice said:

Once you've edited the json, right click the file and mark as "read only". Will stop it from being overridden.

thanks, i'll try it out

[galgat]

10 hours ago, Cieris said:

Did some tests, 2.0c works perfectly with Slavetats 1.2.3 but not with 1.3.0. Nothing else changed other than the Slavetats version, there must be some sort of incompatibility.

  I too found this the only real difference between my two profiles, but slighted it as not possible to be the culprit, I did mention it earlier, but I suppose it could possibly have something to do with it.

 

  I know the profile that works for me as you said has 1.2.3, and the one that does not work has 1.3.0, it seems strange that it would create a problem, but I would not rule it out.

 

  It would be and easy change, and should not even need a save clean, I might test that.. I guess I should have when I noticed that difference, it just seemed so trivial.

 

EDIT ?>>>> That was it, I swapped back to Tat's 1.2.3 and all is well, I should have changed it when I first noticed, but I did not see any way it should have messed things up.. One for my thinking, always take everything into account.

 

Here is the log file from the was not working profile after changing 1.3.0 tas to 1.2.3 slave tat's right up to the [clickme] which would never appear before.

Papyrus.0.log

[hh82]

10 hours ago, Cieris said:

Did some tests, 2.0c works perfectly with Slavetats 1.2.3 but not with 1.3.0. Nothing else changed other than the Slavetats version, there must be some sort of incompatibility.

 

27 minutes ago, galgat said:

EDIT ?>>>> That was it, I swapped back to Tat's 1.2.3 and all is well, I should have changed it when I first noticed, but I did not see any way it should have messed things up.. One for my thinking, always take everything into account.

 

I also changed back to Slavetats 1.2.3 and have got the dialogue options running, so that was definitely the problem.

[galgat]

1 hour ago, hh82 said:

 

 

I also changed back to Slavetats 1.2.3 and have got the dialogue options running, so that was definitely the problem.

  I think there will be a couple of script left over from 1.3.0, so a cleaning, and stabilization of your save might be a good Idea before installing any other mods over that save.  In other words get your save solid before installing Devious followers, or spank that ass, or any other mod you might want to test.

 

  Funny thing for me is the save that was working was made on 11-11-2011, day one of skyrim, and it has always been my solidest save, and I have truly cleaned the hell out of it, removing, and adding, and removing mod, 100's of times, yet it always has the smallest log, and the solidest game play of any profile I have, so I pretty much just piss off that Golden rule scare tactic.. LOL ( Not saying it should not be considered, but nobody that plays this game ever always or never's anything.. )

[Lozeak]

So yea I have finally worked it all out... I don't get why it works like this.

 

In Slavetat 1.3 it has the same kind of compatibility fix as my mod.

 

Basically, the fix will only work once cause the second script that uses the same fix the game won't initialize it because a script doesn't exist and because everything in my mod is connected it all falls apart.

 

If you installed AFT and EFF then disable the esps 1.30 and DF will work.

 

The code that is messing up everything is trying to call as quest as it's a script from another mod to get access to its functions

It's really weird that Skyrim goes OK ... you don't have that script but I'll let you initize that script then the next time it goes NAHH you only get one!

 

I bet this is kind of the first time this error has been found. I imagine Skyrim shouldn't let you initialize any script if it calls a script that doesn't exist but lets it happen once for w/e reason.

 

What this means ... maybe I need to rethink somethings for compatibility and how to implement it.

[chuBBies1]

Tried it with Slavetats 1.2.3... and it just works. I'm not too well versed in scripts and how to fix them, but using an older slavetat seems to be the key. This is pretty interesting.

[galgat]

1 hour ago, Lozeak said:

So yea I have finally worked it all out... I don't get why it works like this.

 

In Slavetat 1.3 it has the same kind of compatibility fix as my mod.

 

Basically, the fix will only work once cause the second script that uses the same fix the game won't initialize it because a script doesn't exist and because everything in my mod is connected it all falls apart.

 

If you installed AFT and EFF then disable the esps 1.30 and DF will work.

 

The code that is messing up everything is trying to call as quest as it's a script from another mod to get access to its functions

It's really weird that Skyrim goes OK ... you don't have that script but I'll let you initize that script then the next time it goes NAHH you only get one!

 

I bet this is kind of the first time this error has been found. I imagine Skyrim shouldn't let you initialize any script if it calls a script that doesn't exist but lets it happen once for w/e reason.

 

What this means ... maybe I need to rethink somethings for compatibility and how to implement it.

It is certainly unexpected that is why when I noticed it was the only difference between my two profiles ( the working, and the non working ) I ignored it.

[vhalhi]

Quick question for clarification about the deals. Is the deal a one off payment to wear a device or does keeping the deal going continue to pay off some of your debt?

[chuBBies1]

37 minutes ago, vhalhi said:

Quick question for clarification about the deals. Is the deal a one off payment to wear a device or does keeping the deal going continue to pay off some of your debt?

When you agree to a deal, an x amount of debt is forever taken away. However, the deal itself is quite expensive and you may need to agree to more deals to get the option to buyout of the deals. A lot of this is configurable, but I suggest that you gain a lot of gold before you get a follower. 

[vhalhi]

37 minutes ago, chuBBies1 said:

When you agree to a deal, an x amount of debt is forever taken away. However, the deal itself is quite expensive and you may need to agree to more deals to get the option to buyout of the deals. A lot of this is configurable, but I suggest that you gain a lot of gold before you get a follower. 

So a single payment then, thanks. I might adjust a few settings then.

[Lupine00]

10 hours ago, Lozeak said:

I bet this is kind of the first time this error has been found. I imagine Skyrim shouldn't let you initialize any script if it calls a script that doesn't exist but lets it happen once for w/e reason.

No. I't not new. This is an area of known pain.

 

I've described this issue before in various forums, and tried to explain the cause, but generally, people are not following how it works.

 

Mods that reference scripts from other mods are often potentially problematic.

Mods that do this without checking the ESP exists are highly problematic.

Mods that do this during initialisation, or do it entangling mods that perform initialisation operations or updates on load are another highly problematic case.

 

As I've explained the precise cause previously, I don't want to go over it all again here.

 

Here's the key to the puzzle though.

 

When you first reference a type in a script file, that type gets loaded. Scripts are loaded "on demand" in that sense, but once they're loaded, they don't get unloaded.

This means the order that scripts are first called is extremely sensitive. This is beyond dispute.

 

My theory is that the act of loading a script will normally result in the construction of the owning VMAD. Could probably be confirmed by examination of the Skyrim executable, but I don't have enough hours in my life for that.

 

In the case of scripts that have no ESP (for example), no VMAD can be constructed. The script becomes a weird orphan that cannot execute because it has no VMAD. Can you say CTD?

 

 

Thus, you can reference scripts that have no VMAD, rather easily if you don't pre-check for the ESP, but other problems can arise from that load order if that script also references other scripts. This is why the issues almost always pivot around a mod that references another mod that references another mod, and those mods are referenced by multiple mods. First caller is first loader. Always. If the first caller of a mods scripts are a martian script, then its scripts can get loaded before its ESP - even though the ESP exists, it hasn't run its init yet. Again, at worst CTD, at best, everything is hosed.

 

Thus best practice:

 

Always check the ESP exists for scripts you call before you call the shim for them.

Put the shim in a global, and do not call that global unless the ESP is in the LO.

Also, do not to any processing of soft-dep mods until after init or loads are all done - ONLY ever do it in an update triggered off a delay from the init or load.

 

Does that make sense?

[Zaflis]

8 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

Always check the ESP exists for scripts you call before you call the shim for them.

Speaking of that, i've seen mods that still use GetFormFromFile() for that. That creates a distracting error log in Papyrus.

 

Because all of us use SKSE, there is a better way:

https://www.creationkit.com/index.php?title=GetModByName_-_Game

"in place of GetFormFromFile entirely, if you only want to check if the plugin is present"

[Lozeak]

3 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Does that make sense?

Not sure mainly because I don't know what a shim is or VMAD.

 

But the error isn't anything to do with checking if an esp exist. If you do that and call the script the game would CTD.

 

The error is 2 or more different script referencing the same script that doesn't exist.

The second time this is done based on load order Skyrim will invalidate that script including every script connected to via properties and in my cases it was connected basically to the entire mod so the whole of Devious Followers fell apart.

 

I'm guessing you are saying create the script in a way so that they are not connected to anything via properties so if there error out they won't break the mod.

 

I'll look into it more, thing is I'm not sure there is a way to have a script with connecting to the CK an therefore the esp meaning no matter how you add the script if the thing it references doesn't exist you risk breaking your mod or other mod and basically, therefore, shouldn't be done unless you tell people that there need to scripts installed without activating the esp.

[restrict]

First of all, I love your mod. I don't use follower for a long time, but I'm using now. And... English isn't my first language, hopefully I won't make those I write too hard to understand...

 

-------------------- Some bug/glitch/conflict I encounter --------------------

1. With Deviously Helpless, after I made deal wearing gloves and boots and been rape by bandits, I got tied up by simple ropes, before I untied myself, I've be punish by not wearing gloves every few seconds.....damn... I guess DH temporary using ropes replace gloves? Because as soon as I brake free and open inventory, I found out gloves still already wearing.......

 

2. When I try to hire Stenvar in Windhelm, I can't. I click dialog option and nothing happen, only Stenvar's dialog came out but no voice. Disable your mod in MCM won't help. I can only deactivate your mod, hire him then reactivate it again......(This happen in 1.72 & 2.01c)

 

3.  Once when my character got high security gag, I try to ask follower take it off, of course he can't , but I didn't notice message and ask again. Follower say something like "naked and bondage girl...." then fuck her. After that, mod complete shut down, need uninstall reinstall the mod (1.72)

 

 

-------------------- A suggestion --------------------

 

Sometimes after cursed loot event will trigger DF event, I like that by the way, but it also a little annoying need to run all the way back through entire dungeon. If it's impossible, make a dialog option to choice finish dungeon first. I think it might like this.

 

PC: "Please, we really need finish this job first."
Follower: "Fine.. But you need put this two plugs inside your body and wearing chastity belt  to make sure you're horny enough and willing to do the thing I ask after...." (Maybe even ask PC need naked, let him enjoy the view)

After clean the area, PC must talk to follower and continue the originally game. If PC didn't talk to follower, follower will punish PC after she leave dungeon.

 

--------------------------------------------------------

 

I still have a lot of ideas want to suggest since I start play your mod, but some of them already implanted in 2.0. I think I'll keep playing and see what's new in 2.0 first.

At the end, thank for this wonderful mod.

 

[Lupine00]

20 hours ago, Lozeak said:

The error is 2 or more different script referencing the same script that doesn't exist.

That's why this is bound up with correctly detecting scripts and their owning ESPs actually exist before you reference them.

Not call ... even referencing them (i.e. using a type) is enough to screw things up.

 

Secondly, its bound up with understanding that if an ESP isn't fully loaded, it's very similar to it not existing.

Maybe not identical, but close enough in most cases.

 

Now do you see how it connects?

 

You need to have some confidence that a mod has loaded its own scripts before you try and access them.

This is why auto-start mods are so often poison.

This is partly why SLD, and DA, and Defeat, and SexLab itself do not auto start.

It's also why DCL runs its soft-deps in the main update, not in its init - and its soft-deps are mostly fairly benign/restricted such that they aren't things that rely on scripts that are loaded late or perhaps never.

 

Re-read what I wrote earlier and follow the implications to their conclusion.

[Lupine00]

21 hours ago, Lozeak said:

thing is I'm not sure there is a way to have a script with connecting to the CK an therefore the esp meaning no matter how you add the script

I'm not sure I know what you mean here...

 

You certainly can soft-dep safely. But you can't do it lazily, you have to look carefully at what you depend on.

 

1) Stop auto-starting, this will fix a lot of problems. Make people start DF.

2) You don't have to use properties in scripts if you use LoadFormFromFile on your own ESP - stops your mod being merged though.

3) A lot of properties can be replaced with StorageUtil.

4) If you soft-dep, make sure you don't rely on a script that may not have been referenced by the owner mod by the time you reference it.

5) Always check for ESP existence in one script, THEN call into another that handles the LoadFormFromFile to get a handle on the other mod.

5) Put soft-dep code in global functions so there is no ESP dependency.

6) Global functions do not (and CANNOT) have an ESP dependency or use properties.

7) Never perform soft-dep checks in load handler.

8 ) Never perform soft-dep checks in init handler.

 

Even SLD breaks some of these rules, but mostly gets away with it because it doesn't auto-start.

One mistake it makes is not checking that a mod has started, it just checks a mod is loaded.

This could probably cause issues when other mods are loaded that do the same thing and soft-dep on the same mod.

[frhghz]

Hi there, really like your mod,

but for some reason I can't trigger the enslaved content.

My debt is sky high and my follower(*cough*Master*cough*) gives me a few item and told me, to wear just the heals the mittens and the collar,

but sadly I can't remove the sign pear and the corset or the chasity belt. shortly after equipping the collar, my follower(*cough*Master*cough*) tells me, I'm useless, leaves and dumps me in an sinkhole.

Can you give me some pointers?? I would really like to try the enslavement part.

 

~ frhghz

 

[Lupine00]

1 hour ago, frhghz said:

My debt is sky high and my follower(*cough*Master*cough*) gives me a few item and told me, to wear just the heals the mittens and the collar,

That really means "at least" heels, mittens and collar.

 

Wearing a corset, belt, or plug will not be a problem under those conditions.

 

You're probably getting dumped because you are accumulating too much debt too fast.

Once you are enslaved, you won't collect debt in the same way, unless you work really hard to annoy your helpful companion.

 

A few questions:

• Did you pick endless mode? That stops enslavement.
• What version are you running?
• How much debt do you have when you get enslaved?
• What is configured for your debt limits?
• Did you enable the option for your master to sell you?

[Addramyr]

Hey all, anyone getting weird bug? Whenever i load the mod all my characters in the game become motionless.

 

Any ideas?

[Rolgar]

Did you run FNIS afterwards?

[Addramyr]

yep, and to be safe ran bodyslide.

 

It seems to be an issue with ZaZ Extension Pack