WickedWhims

[Simsy McSimsface]

11 minutes ago, MrGrey said:

EA owns the mods, not the mod author. ... mod makers signed away their rights when the agreed to the EA terms of service.

That's what EA claims. But it's just that. A claim. For the upteenth time, TOS is NOT federal law. Corpos can claim all sorts of stuff in them (and they often do), that can never be enforced. There's no precedent. No court cases.

 

16 minutes ago, MrGrey said:

Puttng the mods behind a paywall is against EA's terms of service.

The TOS contains no such claim. It only talks about posting User Generated Content - what a vague blanket term. what is even that? no clarification on it - on relevant EA services (aka the Gallery).

 

18 minutes ago, MrGrey said:

EA owns all mods for their games, If they don't like your mod, they can shut it down with IP law.

Lol, Nope. They can send you a cease and desist if you violate their trademarks (like logos, design elements, etc.), but they don't own something a third party made for their game, no matter how hard they claim (they actually don't even claim this, it's just being twisted out of context by the player community).

 

Please play less Ace Attorney.

[KerrineR]

13 minutes ago, MrGrey said:

I didn't see anything about vulgar or lewd mods in that video. It was about IP rights and End User license agreements and how EA allows mods but they must not be behind a paywall. Patreon rules allow "Early access", but EA does not.

I heard there was some kind of rumor about EA not allowing or banning teen related NSFW mods ?not sure if these 2 are related

Edited August 1, 2022 by KerrineR

[SticksStackStuck]

9 minutes ago, MrGrey said:

I didn't see anything about vulgar or lewd mods in that video. It was about IP rights and End User license agreements and how EA allows mods but they must not be behind a paywall. Patreon rules allow "Early access", but EA does not.

 

It's all over youtube if you want to research it yourself. The main push from EA is over mods behind paywalls, but the note from EA also addresses "inappropriate" content. This is nothing new, the change now is that EA has started sending 'cease and desist'-letters out. I don't know if Turbodriver has had any communication from EA, perhaps it's just an attempt to stay a step ahead. The changes from EA are real though.

[SticksStackStuck]

14 minutes ago, The Masked Moddess said:

That's what EA claims. But it's just that. A claim. For the upteenth time, TOS is NOT federal law. Corpos can claim all sorts of stuff in them (and they often do), that can never be enforced. There's no precedent. No court cases.

 

Would you take the chance that your interpretation of the law is the correct one if it came down to a court case? Indeed, do you have the financial means to get a proper barrister and fight EA in court? If so, good for you, most of us are not in that situation.

 

Remember, should EA so desire, the devs need only change a few codes to make WW entirely useless. If the dev team are starting to get complaints about mode content, they would ha no problem nerfing said mod. So far EA have let WW slide, but if you threaten to take them to court, that is not likely to remain the case.

Edited August 1, 2022 by SticksStackStuck

[Atomhv]

17 minutes ago, The Masked Moddess said:

That's what EA claims. But it's just that. A claim. For the upteenth time, TOS is NOT federal law. Corpos can claim all sorts of stuff in them (and they often do), that can never be enforced. There's no precedent. No court cases.

 

The TOS contains no such claim. It only talks about posting User Generated Content - what a vague blanket term. what is even that? no clarification on it - on relevant EA services (aka the Gallery).

 

Lol, Nope. They can send you a cease and desist if you violate their trademarks (like logos, design elements, etc.), but they don't own something a third party made for their game, no matter how hard they claim (they actually don't even claim this, it's just being twisted out of context by the player community).

 

Please play less Ace Attorney.

YEEEEEEES                                                     YEEEEEEEEEEEES    

[MrGrey]

https://tos.ea.com/legalapp/WEBTERMS/US/en/PC/#section5

 

Also, this:

Quote

Mods must be non-commercial and distributed free-of-charge. Mods cannot be sold, licensed, or rented for a fee, nor can Mods contain features that would support monetary transactions of any type. However, Maxis recognizes that creating Mods takes time and resources. Accordingly, Mod developers may recoup their development costs via passive advertisements and donations as long as:

Passive advertisements and requests for donations must be limited to the Mod website or distribution site, and not appear within the Mod itself.

All users must be able to access the Mods in full for free regardless of whether they donate.

 

https://help.ea.com/en-gb/help/the-sims/the-sims-4/mods-and-the-sims-4-game-updates/]

 

[Ortikan]

2 hours ago, Petr54 said:

You focused your attention on a minor detail in my post. The legal side was touched by me in passing. I may not have even mentioned it, as I didn't think it would detract from the main point of my post. EA and Turbo don't have to fear legal action, that's true. 

The main thing is different, EA is the one who imposed these restrictions, EA is the one who demands changes in mods as the owner of WW. Let's not parse exactly what EA was guided by in making its demands. My guess is:

In any case, Turbo is obligated to comply with all EA requirements. He did, but in the process gave a tool to circumvent those restrictions. That was the main point of my post as well.

All user accusations against Turbo should be dismissed as baseless. And just continue to enjoy the mod using his tools to circumvent EA restrictions.

Baseless? TurboDriver makes mods for the sims +18 community. Turbodriver relies on the community for feedback and patrons to support that effort. The moment TurboDriver considers all comments against them as baseless on any matter, You may as well give TurboDriver an EA shirt and let them work in an EA office since they won't give a fuck, flying or otherwise about you, me or anyone else and they can do whatever they like no matter what. That's the way EA goes about things and that's the way you propose TurboDriver should as well?

 

Please be more careful about the way you make such comments.

[MrGrey]

23 minutes ago, SticksStackStuck said:

 

It's all over youtube if you want to research it yourself. The main push from EA is over mods behind paywalls, but the note from EA also addresses "inappropriate" content. This is nothing new, the change now is that EA has started sending 'cease and desist'-letters out. I don't know if Turbodriver has had any communication from EA, perhaps it's just an attempt to stay a step ahead. The changes from EA are real though.

I said I didn't see it in the video, I didn't claim it didn't exist. I pointed out the video was about mods being free for everyone to download.

Edited August 1, 2022 by MrGrey

[Simsy McSimsface]

12 minutes ago, SticksStackStuck said:

EA has started sending 'cease and desist'-letters out.

Source?

 

2 minutes ago, SticksStackStuck said:

Would you take the chance that your interpretation of the law is the correct one if it came down to a court case? Indeed, do you have the financial means to get a proper barrister and fight EA in court? If so, good for you, most of us are not in that situation.

Would EA risk to lose a precedent court case that might state that their claims are bogus, and have no rights over third party content?

Can EA afford to spend $70-100K per suit, trying to go after a CC maker in Albania, who's whole family fortune worths 3 grand, and where local laws might give diddly-fuck about copyrights/trademarks?

Both sides are interested in preserving the present status quo. - Modders can make money, making the game better, and EA can sell more kits and broken packs at a nice profit. Win-Win.

[Simsy McSimsface]

5 minutes ago, MrGrey said:

https://tos.ea.com/legalapp/WEBTERMS/US/en/PC/#section5

 

Again, the TOS only talks about posting on UGC on EA Services. Patreon is not an EA service, neither is LoversLab, etc.

Quote

You allow EA and our players to use anything you upload or create (UGC) for free within our games and services. You are responsible for your UGC, it must be your own content or content you’re allowed to use.

 

7 minutes ago, MrGrey said:

https://help.ea.com/en-gb/help/the-sims/the-sims-4/mods-and-the-sims-4-game-updates/]

It's a glorified blog post, like when Blizzard promises that "They'll looking into it™". So presently it's nothing more then a recommendation. apart from the trademark infringing part, that can actually be easily enforced. They most likely just pandering to the crowd, and will end up doing nothing.

[MrGrey]

1 minute ago, The Masked Moddess said:

 

Again, the TOS only talks about posting on UGC on EA Services. Patreon is not an EA service, neither is LoversLab, etc.

 

It's a glorified blog post, like when Blizzard promises that "They'll looking into it™". So presently it's nothing more then a recommendation. apart from the trademark infringing part, that can actually be easily enforced. They most likely just pandering to the crowd, and will end up doing nothing.

Are you a lawyer?

[wenflux]

Sooo switching back to actual issues with the mod. Does anyone know of a work around for the save reset bug at all? Also has Turbodriver said anything about it?

[Ortikan]

40 minutes ago, SticksStackStuck said:

 

You are correct, the difference is EA has tightened up it's rule and is starting to actually do something about the rulebreakers (if you watch through Pixelades's video). That is new, EA has had a rather laissez-faire attitude to things up to now.

EA cancel culture in effect and this ridiculous hypocritical idea they have about inclusion and tolerance and then play two faced about removing such diversity because they don't like it. EA is asserting their own correctness and what you me or anyone else thinks, if they crack down hard enough on it will not matter, you might find Loverslab and NSFW being pulled down because it contain TS4 related content they want removed, and then WW, NWP, DD and sex animations and so many other things are going to be taken to the crapper. (Don't be so sure they can't do such a thing)

 

EA are given the excuse they wanted because the mod makers were getting too greedy by hiding everything behind patreon, such utter foolishness especially considering there are limitations that were in effect that mod makers are required to provide a public version of their mod for free after a certain amount of time and most just flat out ignored it. I'm not saying mod makers shouldn't be supported for their work, but if more mod makers had put these public versions out, we almost certainly wouldn't have seen EA changing things around like this. Be glad that EA hasn't gone so draconian that they changed their game code altogether so no mod will ever work again. This is more along the lines of an over-zealous warning shot.

[Simsy McSimsface]

6 minutes ago, MrGrey said:

Are you a lawyer?

No. Are you?

I'm just someone who actually read the relevant official documents that EA provides, instead of spreading half-baked rumors made by a circle-jerking community of players who are  right now in super-sayan hype mode, coz' "Mods gonna be free now, EA said so!" - "I've heard that they already arrested Turbo, he's at Guantanamo Bay right now, being waterboarded by Andrew Wilson himself! My uncle is a guard there, he told me so."

[RUASim21]

7 minutes ago, The Masked Moddess said:

No. Are you?

I'm just someone who actually read the relevant official documents that EA provides, instead of spreading half-baked rumors made by a circle-jerking community of players who are  right now in super-sayan hype mode, coz' "Mods gonna be free now, EA said so!" - "I've heard that they already arrested Turbo, he's at Guantanamo Bay right now, being waterboarded by Andrew Wilson himself! My uncle is a guard there, he told me so."

?

[MrGrey]

CONFIRMED: EARLY ACCESS FOR MODS/CC IS NOT ALLOWED! (PER EA SUPPORT)

https://youtu.be/UITbgecLcjA

Edited August 1, 2022 by MrGrey

[MrGrey]

22 minutes ago, The Masked Moddess said:

No. Are you?

I'm just someone who actually read the relevant official documents that EA provides, instead of spreading half-baked rumors made by a circle-jerking community of players who are  right now in super-sayan hype mode, coz' "Mods gonna be free now, EA said so!" - "I've heard that they already arrested Turbo, he's at Guantanamo Bay right now, being waterboarded by Andrew Wilson himself! My uncle is a guard there, he told me so."

Huh. So, you're saying someone arrested Turbo and took him to Gitmo. What did you "actually read the relevant" post with that one?

Okay, you want mods to not be free per EA. 

 

Quote

 

The Sims Policy on Mods

We know that, for many of you, Mods are an important part of your game experience.  For that reason, we support a framework in The Sims 4 that makes it easier for you to install and use Mods.

The Sims team doesn’t pre-screen, endorse or specifically support any particular Mod. You should use Mods with caution and understand there may be risk.

We have a long tradition of supporting creativity in our community.  We do not object to Mod developers continuing to share their amazing content, subject to the following:

1. Do not promote your Mods in a way that suggests they are endorsed by or affiliated with The Sims, Maxis, or Electronic Arts. This means you cannot use any game logos or trademarks, including versions of the plumbob, or key art designs to promote your Mods. You may state that your Mods are for The Sims 4 and/or for a specific game expansion pack.
2. Mods must be non-commercial and distributed free-of-charge. Mods cannot be sold, licensed, or rented for a fee, nor can Mods contain features that would support monetary transactions of any type. However, Maxis recognizes that creating Mods takes time and resources. Accordingly, Mod developers may recoup their development costs via passive advertisements and donations as long as:
   • Passive advertisements and requests for donations must be limited to the Mod website or distribution site, and not appear within the Mod itself.
   • All users must be able to access the Mods in full for free regardless of whether they donate.

We reserve the right to address any inappropriate Mods, including Mods that infringe the intellectual property or privacy rights of others, contain obscene, objectionable, or harmful content, jeopardize the integrity of The Sims 4 gameplay, or otherwise violate the EA User Agreement.

 

It says mods must be Distributed free of charge.

You say it doesn't. Good luck with that.

[SticksStackStuck]

35 minutes ago, The Masked Moddess said:

Source?

 

Would EA risk to lose a precedent court case that might state that their claims are bogus, and have no rights over third party content?

Can EA afford to spend $70-100K per suit, trying to go after a CC maker in Albania, who's whole family fortune worths 3 grand, and where local laws might give diddly-fuck about copyrights/trademarks?

Both sides are interested in preserving the present status quo. - Modders can make money, making the game better, and EA can sell more kits and broken packs at a nice profit. Win-Win.

 

Source is the Pixelade vide linked further up. It seems the cease and desist letters may have been bogus, but the tightening of the rules are real enough.

 

Simply having to spend time and resources fighting over a hobby-related activity in court is something almost no people will be willing to do. Litigation takes years to complete, and in the mean time there's no more mod-making unless you want to really weaken your position. Would you be willing on your free time to go up against a large, multi-million corporation fighting for their intellectual property (not to say their livelihood) who has a small army of barristers that can litigate this full time?

[chiefquis]

On 7/31/2022 at 9:25 AM, scrubster said:

i think this is working, thanks

I re installed mines the same way

[MrGrey]

All mods contain some of the game's IP. An example would be the calls in python script files and the format of the various XML files. The argument can be made that the idea behind the mod is your ip, but they will win on the basis of their IP in the mod for their game, which is their IP.

Not a lawyer, and no lawyer in his right mind would admit to being one in a casual discussion like this.

And that someone believes it is a bad business decision to protect their IP - I learned exactly the opposite from the MegaCorp company as an engineer. If you don't defend your IP, you lose the claim that it is your IP.

[Simsy McSimsface]

5 minutes ago, MrGrey said:

Okay, you want mods to not be free per EA. 

I want a thriving modding community, where it worths it for modders to maintain, update and expand their creations. If they want to be compensated for it, let it be; and I, as a customer can vote with my wallet on who I do wanna buy from. This commie mentality that EA is now pandering to (which found fertile grounds to none of my surprise). This will only lead us to the desolate land, where the most talented modders might just fuck off and get a corpo job instead of making my favorite game better, and we're left with third rate recolors.

Seriously, I will never understand, why people can't just walk away from a product if they can't afford it or not willing to pay for it? Nobody is forcing anybody to pay for anything. It's all up to the individual.

 

15 minutes ago, MrGrey said:

It says mods must be Distributed free of charge. You say it doesn't. Good luck with that.

Again, you keep quoting the same blog post. I ask again, why EA haven't updated any relevant legal documents with this new information?

My phone company texts me every time they change a letter in their TOS, but all a multi billion company can do is a news post on their site? Why?

 

11 minutes ago, SticksStackStuck said:

Source is the Pixelade vide linked further up. It seems the cease and desist letters may have been bogus, but the tightening of the rules are real enough.

Sorry, but this seems like a pandering rumor channel.

[Too_Funky1987]

EA Suck!! overpriced expansion packs, long waits for content, bullying of the mod makers and lots of other nasty stuff - sure, I have never had my teens ''woohoo'' with adults but what's wrong with other teens??? It's part of life-- Teens unfortunately, have sex, teens get drunk and high and teens do other silly shit like joyriding! teens are not angels!!!

Edited August 1, 2022 by Too_Funky1987

[MrGrey]

What EA wants is to make money. In that mods help them to do that they like mods. If mods give them legal exposure or lose money then they don't like mods so much. Thus, EA will try and control what mods are out there to make them money. What the mod makers do is up to them.

 

Quote

We reserve the right to address any inappropriate Mods, including Mods that infringe the intellectual property or privacy rights of others, contain obscene, objectionable, or harmful content, jeopardize the integrity of The Sims 4 gameplay, or otherwise violate the EA User Agreement.

If EA judges a mod obscene or objectionable (i.e. get them in trouble where they can't sell the game) then they claim the right to "address inappropriate mods". Since all mods contain EA IP be it a mesh, XML or Python file that makes calls to their code and the mod could cause them damages in lost sales or lawsuits, they can sue.

 

[wild_guy]

18 minutes ago, The Masked Moddess said:

This will only lead us to the desolate land, where the most talented modders might just fuck off and get a corpo job instead of making my favorite game better, and we're left with third rate recolors.

I can confirm this is true.

[DarthKahn]

If EA gets too crazy with all of this and does not just fix what they broke and quietly move on to other projects I will just delete the Sims and wave goodby to EA.

 

The Sims and EA are just a want not a need. Can always move on and try out modding Skyrim.