Status of FO4 scene? Almost dead?

[Trykz]

Well, just checking 'new files' and 'updated files' everyday on the nexus you can have an idea if FO4 modding scene is dead or not. Instead of dead, It seem's pretty healthy.

 

Sure. If you count LooksMenu and BodySlide presets, or settlement blueprints as "mods". Otherwise, it's a few guns, a couple armors or clothing sprinkled in here and there, and a few cell mods from time to time.

 

The Hotfiles I see today are the same ones I saw 4 days ago. Compared to Skyrim (either version), FO4 modding is essentially at a standstill. That's not healthy. That's limping along on life support.

 

Trykz

[BoondockSaint]

 

Compared to Skyrim (either version), FO4 modding is essentially at a standstill.

 

Comparing Skyrim modding scene with any other game modding scene is simply unfair. And you should know it.

 

Judging FO4 modding scene by itself, I think it's doing OK. It's on the verge of overtaking FONV in quantity (being FONV a better game in my opinion) and also have It's big projects (Miami, the Wasteland Overhaul project...), It's mid-to-big ones (WARS) and so on.

 

Even if what's released is not of your tastes, It's still an active scene.

[Guest]

You guys also have to consider that elder scrolls is more popular than fallout. Just look at the total amount of mods on the nexus. Skyrim has more mods on the nexus than fo3, fonv, and fo4 combined. Which is only twice the amount of mods oblivion has on its own. 

[BoondockSaint]

elder scrolls is more popular than fallout.

 

Exactly. Fantasy is quite more popular among RPGs than any other genre (post apocalyptic, sci fi, horror...).

[Trykz]

 

 

Compared to Skyrim (either version), FO4 modding is essentially at a standstill.

 

Comparing Skyrim modding scene with any other game modding scene is simply unfair. And you should know it.

 

Judging FO4 modding scene by itself, I think it's doing OK. It's on the verge of overtaking FONV in quantity (being FONV a better game in my opinion) and also have It's big projects (Miami, the Wasteland Overhaul project...), It's mid-to-big ones (WARS) and so on.

 

Even if what's released is not of your tastes, It's still an active scene.

 

 

It has nothing to do with my taste in mods. And there's nothing unfair about the comparison at all. FO-NV didn't have BodySlide or LooksMenu presets. Nor did it have settlement blueprints. Take those "non-mods" away from your count for FO4, and then do your mod for mod comparison. FO4 is lightyears behind FO-NV. Skyrim had more than twice the mods that FO4 has after it's first year.

 

Strip away all the stuff so many people classify as "mods", and you've got diddly left. My statement stands...... FO4 modding is essentially at a standstill. There's very little "active" about it.

 

Trykz

[Kain82]

I don't know, I downloaded some nice looking quest mods from Nexus.  I am eager to play them once I buy all dlc's.

[KoolHndLuke]

There do seem to be fewer mod authors working on FO4. I have heard that Japanese, Korean, ect. do not work on it because it is too "American". Skyrim will always be many modders baby and the fact that FO4 was not well recieved hurt interest in it. I still think that with a more functional script extender FO4 has much untapped potential. I mean if you didn't like FO4 to begin with then why give a fuck if it is modded or not?   

[Trykz]

There do seem to be fewer mod authors working on FO4. I have heard that Japanese, Korean, ect. do not work on it because it is too "American". Skyrim will always be many modders baby and the fact that FO4 was not well recieved hurt interest in it. I still think that with a more functional script extender FO4 has much untapped potential. I mean if you didn't like FO4 to begin with then why give a fuck if it is modded or not?   

 

Exactly.

 

FO4 has TONS of potential. And mods like Start Me Up and Silent Protagonist make that potential extremely obvious. Once you get rid of the "OMG.....MY BABY!!!" bullshit, the baked in role, and stereotypical white American voicetype (when you clearly customized your character to look totally contrary), the game feels much, much different.

 

A script extender may not be necessary for a lot of things. But there can be no question that a fully functional F4SE will allow for MANY more possibilities.

 

Trykz

[pipdude]

 

Strip away all the stuff so many people classify as "mods", and you've got diddly left. My statement stands...... FO4 modding is essentially at a standstill. There's very little "active" about it.

 

 

I don't know. A very large proportion of Skyrim mods have always been characters and weapons also. If we don't count those as "mods" then Skyrim isn't as busy either.

 

Also, Sims Settlements just came out for FO4. In my opinion, that is as substantial of a game-changing mod (if not more so) than anything ever made in Skyrim.

 

There probably isn't as much sheer quantity of modding for FO4 compared to Skyrim. But, that doesn't make it dead or at a standstill.

 

Totally with you on wanting the extender. At this point, I'm wondering if we need to try and recruit someone new to build it.

[Varithina]

 

Totally with you on wanting the extender. At this point, I'm wondering if we need to try and recruit someone new to build it.

 

 

You pretty much have things you would need there, one is getting people with the correct skill set to do it, doable, I am sure there are people who can do, and second having the time to commit to do the work, again more than likely you can get people who have the time, however getting people who have both time and skill will be much harder.

 

Even they can commit and have the skill now does not mean that in 3-4 months time they still will have the time, due to changes in there real world existence, after all how many mods come and the stop because the author simply no longer has the time due to their situation changing.

[Trykz]

 

 

Strip away all the stuff so many people classify as "mods", and you've got diddly left. My statement stands...... FO4 modding is essentially at a standstill. There's very little "active" about it.

 

 

I don't know. A very large proportion of Skyrim mods have always been characters and weapons also. If we don't count those as "mods" then Skyrim isn't as busy either.

 

Also, Sims Settlements just came out for FO4. In my opinion, that is as substantial of a game-changing mod (if not more so) than anything ever made in Skyrim.

 

There probably isn't as much sheer quantity of modding for FO4 compared to Skyrim. But, that doesn't make it dead or at a standstill.

 

Totally with you on wanting the extender. At this point, I'm wondering if we need to try and recruit someone new to build it.

 

 

If we count things like LooksMenu presets, BodySlide presets, settlement blueprints, and enb presets as "mods", then everyone is a "modder". All of these things do require a particular eye for detail (such as Sanhoshin's Skyrim characters) to garner popularity. But aside from that, no particular technical skill is really required, and are very subjective to the eye of the beholder.

 

New Quests, Worldspaces, Races, Weapons, Armors, Clothing, and the like, require true commitment to the craft of modding. Because, lets face it, real modding IS a craft. A craft which more times than not, requires even deeper skills in things like the Creation Kit, Nifskope, Blender, GiMP, Photoshop, 3DSMax, or even the built in Papyrus scripting tool. To elevate someone's BodySlide or LooksMenu preset to that level is not only ridiculous, but a blatant slap in the face to those who spend countless hours and resources crafting a true mod.

 

There truly are a lot of nice things on Nexus for either Skyrim OR FO4. All worthy of their exposure and kudos. But not ALL of them should be classified as mods. Artistic? Most definitely. But mods? Certainly not.

 

That said, I'm confident that if expired6978 is working on F4SE, then it's release is most certainly inevitable. At this point, only patience is required.

 

Trykz

[Dr.StrangeLove]

I think what a lot of you are missing in terms of the game modding community dieing out, is that in my opinion, there are no other games to bounce to and focus on modding over elder scrolls and fallout series

[TheDwarf]

 

There do seem to be fewer mod authors working on FO4. I have heard that Japanese, Korean, ect. do not work on it because it is too "American". Skyrim will always be many modders baby and the fact that FO4 was not well recieved hurt interest in it. I still think that with a more functional script extender FO4 has much untapped potential. I mean if you didn't like FO4 to begin with then why give a fuck if it is modded or not?   

 

Exactly.

 

FO4 has TONS of potential. And mods like Start Me Up and Silent Protagonist make that potential extremely obvious. Once you get rid of the "OMG.....MY BABY!!!" bullshit, the baked in role, and stereotypical white American voicetype (when you clearly customized your character to look totally contrary), the game feels much, much different.

 

A script extender may not be necessary for a lot of things. But there can be no question that a fully functional F4SE will allow for MANY more possibilities.

 

Trykz

 

I salute Fallout 4 modders because they have their work cut out for them. The biggest hurdle to creativity is the fact the Protagonist is voiced, so Quest mods have to take that into account. And unlike Skyrim, there is no generic follower dialogue for companion, because there are no generic companions. Double whammy. And it's not like you can just nab the quality voice actors some mods use for anything. 

 

Most mods on the Nexus for Fallout 4 are Settlement Blueprints, thanks to the Transfer Settlements mod, it's the new trend. Before it was character presets and re-textures before that. But when you compare Skyrim and Fallout 4, Fallout 4 is still a baby, and probably we're a good ways from truly ambitious mods. So yes, I agree. Fallout 4 has potential. We just have to be patient to see what comes of it.

[Trykz]

I think what a lot of you are missing in terms of the game modding community dieing out, is that in my opinion, there are no other games to bounce to and focus on modding over elder scrolls and fallout series

 

That's not it at all. A great many modders have worked on both series. Myself included. The issue lies more within the complexity of the mods many are looking to create. Complex mods tend to be quite script heavy. So tools designed to access that complex functionality need to be quite complex themselves. Hence, F4SE.

 

And at this point, FO4 modders are still working with a half-assed, un-optimized beta Creation Kit. Many are quick to proclaim that the F4SE team needs to step it up. Well, perhaps if Bethesda could at least finish one thing before moving on to another (SkyrimSE and it's Creation Kit), then maybe others would follow suit.

 

Trykz

[Kimy]

 

 The biggest hurdle to creativity is the fact the Protagonist is voiced, so Quest mods have to take that into account.

 

 

That's not nearly the biggest problem. Creating -voiced- quest mods is next to infeasible, because it would be rock hard to find two voice actors that sound even remotely like Nate and Nora, but the vast majority of Skyrim quest mods aren't voiced either, so it doesn't matter all that much in practice.

 

The biggest hurdle for quest mods is the stupid dialogue system itself. It's by far the clumsiest I have ever seen, and I still wonder what they smoked when they decided that this horrible hack-work would be added to a multi-million dollar game production. You need to create separate scenes for each and ever dialogue branch. And the worst part is that ever single player response, without any exception takes exactly four options. If you need more, you can't. If you need less, you can't. As a consequence, it's impossible to create dialogue that just adds options to existing dialogue, which means if you try to e.g. expand the default companion dialogue with new options, you will find out that you can't. You will have to override The. Entire. Thing. Possibly creating super hard clashes with mods that try doing to same. You will also regularly have to put a quest's dialogue in a separate quest, because the aliases needed for the dialogue scenes are not filled when the quest hasn't yet started. Which means you can't add dialogue needed to start a quest to its own quest. If you ever wondered why the FO4 quests are organized in this super chaotic way, that's your answer!

 

Also, apparently Beth didn't anticipate that modders lack the million dollar funds needed to hire the same two pro voice actors they used for Nate and Nora - at least I don't think they ever tested their system with unvoiced dialogue. Otherwise they'd have found out that the camera doesn't even stay focused on NPCs when they talk. All you ever get to see is the player character.

 

I really hope the person who designed that dialogue system is ashamed of what they delivered for the rest of their life. They really should. It will probably forever serve as an example how NOT to design a dialogue system.

[Varithina]

 

I really hope the person who designed that dialogue system is ashamed of what they delivered for the rest of their life. They really should. It will probably forever serve as an example how NOT to design a dialogue system.

 

 

Considering the way things work, they probably got an award and bonuses for it.

 

[Kimy]

 

 

I really hope the person who designed that dialogue system is ashamed of what they delivered for the rest of their life. They really should. It will probably forever serve as an example how NOT to design a dialogue system.

 

 

Considering the way things work, they probably got an award and bonuses for it.

 

 

 

Sad, but true.

[peculiaris]

Wouldn't a more appropriate term be "Dormant"?

[DigitalP]

 

 

 The biggest hurdle to creativity is the fact the Protagonist is voiced, so Quest mods have to take that into account.

 

 

That's not nearly the biggest problem. Creating -voiced- quest mods is next to infeasible, because it would be rock hard to find two voice actors that sound even remotely like Nate and Nora, but the vast majority of Skyrim quest mods aren't voiced either, so it doesn't matter all that much in practice.

 

The biggest hurdle for quest mods is the stupid dialogue system itself. It's by far the clumsiest I have ever seen, and I still wonder what they smoked when they decided that this horrible hack-work would be added to a multi-million dollar game production. You need to create separate scenes for each and ever dialogue branch. And the worst part is that ever single player response, without any exception takes exactly four options. If you need more, you can't. If you need less, you can't. As a consequence, it's impossible to create dialogue that just adds options to existing dialogue, which means if you try to e.g. expand the default companion dialogue with new options, you will find out that you can't. You will have to override The. Entire. Thing. Possibly creating super hard clashes with mods that try doing to same. You will also regularly have to put a quest's dialogue in a separate quest, because the aliases needed for the dialogue scenes are not filled when the quest hasn't yet started. Which means you can't add dialogue needed to start a quest to its own quest. If you ever wondered why the FO4 quests are organized in this super chaotic way, that's your answer!

 

Also, apparently Beth didn't anticipate that modders lack the million dollar funds needed to hire the same two pro voice actors they used for Nate and Nora - at least I don't think they ever tested their system with unvoiced dialogue. Otherwise they'd have found out that the camera doesn't even stay focused on NPCs when they talk. All you ever get to see is the player character.

 

I really hope the person who designed that dialogue system is ashamed of what they delivered for the rest of their life. They really should. It will probably forever serve as an example how NOT to design a dialogue system.

 

 

Virtual Reality exists in the Fallout universe. The ability to transfer minds exists. The ability to see the memories of another person exists. 

 

So that covers the voice actors not sounding the same. Even in a lore friendly way. 

 

So say you want to create a slavery mod. You could create the mod the way you like. Just at the start of the quest you simply hop in a memory lounger, create a character and off you go for your erotic slavery adventure. 

 

And like every other Bethesda game. Most of the lore that they give you is provided through terminals, notes, books, holotapes so it's not like a quest mod really needs a voice protaganist. 

 

Finally if we are to be honest. Virtually every single RPG game is linear. Player sets out, gains skills by doing shit to kill the bad guy. The choices are simply illusions to make you think your choices are important. When really the only choices you have is what armour to wear and what weapon to use. 

[Trykz]

 

Finally if we are to be honest. Virtually every single RPG game is linear. Player sets out, gains skills by doing shit to kill the bad guy. The choices are simply illusions to make you think your choices are important. When really the only choices you have is what armour to wear and what weapon to use. 

 

While that may be fundamentally true, it's not nearly always the case. I'm immediately reminded of The Parthurnaxx Dilemma quest, when Delphine tells you that allowing Parthurnaxx to live means sacrificing Blades recruitment in your quest to kill Alduin. A choice and a consequence. And there have been many such choices and consequences throughout RPG gaming. Try killing Alduin on Master level difficulty without recruiting help, and while wearing vanilla strength armor and wielding a vanilla strength weapon. His one-shot Death Touch of ass-rapery attempt after attempt will soon have you slamming your fist through your display, and wishing you had just killed Parthurnaxx and been done with it.

 

Killing him may leave you feeling like shit, but not killing him may cost you some sanity (and in my own case, a 24" display   ).

 

Trykz

[DocClox]

So say you want to create a slavery mod. You could create the mod the way you like. Just at the start of the quest you simply hop in a memory lounger, create a character and off you go for your erotic slavery adventure.

So we can't have slavery in the game due to technical limitations, but we can have a game inside the game that simulates having slavery in the game? That seems oddly uninspiring, somehow. I mean, as a one-off it might be fun to play if someone wanted to make such a mod. As a general solution to the problems posed by the dialogue system? I can see it getting old very quickly.

 

Also ... what's supposed to happen when we exit the lounger? Do things go back to how they were before? Does the modder have to keep track of all the changes made so that they can undo them when you return? And presumably re-do them when you re-enter the lounger? Or do we just accept that non-lounger Desdemona is henceforth going to continue to spend her time turning tricks for 5 caps a pop in a Goodneighbour back-alley? With a slightly odd voice when she does it? Do we we have to duplicate all the worldspaces and actors? Or must we create a whole new world and new characters for our erotic slavery adventures? 'Cause frankly, just making these things work is trouble enough without having to make each mod a total-conversion-in-a-memory-lounger.

 

Really, I don't think your simple solution is as simple as you may perhaps have thought.

 

Finally if we are to be honest. Virtually every single RPG game is linear. Player sets out, gains skills by doing shit to kill the bad guy. The choices are simply illusions to make you think your choices are important. When really the only choices you have is what armour to wear and what weapon to use.

Real Life is linear if we're honest. We get born, we live a bit and then we die. It's the same for everyone. On a sufficiently long timescale, none of your choices will make the slightest bit of difference. Everything is trivial beyond a certain level of abstraction.

[KoolHndLuke]

Well we have HotC already and it seems to work fine. Now we wait for SexTech to be finished and viola- sex in FO4!!! I mean some authors are working with, through, around obstacles to make their mods. Their is clearly enough interest- probably just not enough collective knowledge. I have seen many people asking questions about making their mods. Hell I'm still trying to figure out some of the basics myself and it can seem daunting to the uninitiated. but if nothing else experienced mod authors not working on FO4 will give rise to new authors carrying the torch.  

[Carabosse]

I'm only concerned with making quest mods. So of course, dialogue changes were a concern. I've heard many complain. Time to panic? No actually. I really don't see the fuss.

You can be extremely inventive with the Creation Kit. So what, the path of least resistance is removed. Adapt to it, be creative. Disclaimer: I'm making tailored npcs for every encounter in my mods (which is a direction I'd decided to go before Fallout 4 was released, I personally saw too many benefits). I've still experimented with altering interactions depending on equipped items, npcs accompanied etc.

You can argue choice or freedom. But it doesn't lend it merit. Global unrestricted dialogues were a cancer born of laziness. Imagine if every single mod that you installed, presumed to add one or more dialogues to every single conversation. I'd be glad to see that cancer eradicated.

**I have nothing but pure hatred for 'global' dialogues. They burden the players experience, unnecessarily. They make the assumption that every single character in the world will respond in the same way, or be open to the same lines of inquiry. And in a role playing game that is an absolute absurdity.

[pipdude]

 

Really, I don't think your simple solution is as simple as you may perhaps have thought.

 

My impression was that they were saying to just have the lounger frame the beginning of the playthrough. Similar to how Alternative Start in Skyrim frames a new game as having more options than the vanilla beginning.

 

If that is the case, you wouldn't have to deal with "coming back", tracking, etc. The lounger experience would be the entire playthrough.

 

**I have nothing but pure hatred for 'global' dialogues. They burden the players experience, unnecessarily. They make the assumption that every single character in the world will respond in the same way, or be open to the same lines of inquiry. And in a role playing game that is an absolute absurdity.

 

What about dialogue that is not global. But, is re-used in certain cases?

 

For example, shopkeepers. Buying equipment from them would seem to be tedious if it involved a unique quest-like conversation every time.

[DocClox]

 

My impression was that they were saying to just have the lounger frame the beginning of the playthrough. Similar to how Alternative Start in Skyrim frames a new game as having more options than the vanilla beginning.

 

If that is the case, you wouldn't have to deal with "coming back", tracking, etc. The lounger experience would be the entire playthrough.

 

 

I'm not sure that helps. I mean if the entire game is in the lounger then you can't re-use existing voice files for out-of-lounger content and you're looking at re-recording all the player dialogue. Or at least any vanilla interactions that you're going to use. Which means that either the stand alone mod is going to be trivial in scope or there's going to be massive amount of voice acting needed.