(Discussion) Elves and Skyrim

[GimmeBACON]

 

 

Isen't she just beautifull?

 

 

 

Yeah.. this is why we all mod the Elves!

 

 

If Bethesda had given us something even remotely passable instead, then you'd probably see more vanilla style Elves. But they gave us this, so is it really any wonder that people decided to just glue ears onto Nords instead? I certainly can't blame them..

 

 

 

 

She actually doesn't look bad.  I love the rugged look of the vanilla Dunmer.

 

 

Yeah, I don't think she looks bad either tbh

[GimmeBACON]

Again, not arguing what is and isn't, this is more of asking what people prefer and why. I got some supporters of skyrim stylized elves, some who just think their ugly, surprisingly, I didn't hear anybody give their reasons why they prefer LOTR style or say they do (that I recall) and I got one person who sends them rebellious brainwaves by making anime characters to irk loremongers (that was barely relevant to the topic tbh, but what can you do) I know that it comes down to taste, this is more of figuring out others tastebuds.

[GrimReaper]

I kinda appreciate what Bethesda tried with the elves in TES. In theory I'd like elves that look slightly alien instead of pointy eared humans. But imo they went way too far, some presets and faces from NPCs just have a bone structure that doesn't seem very plausible. I mean, you should probable be able to stab someone with an elf skull because of dem elongated and pointy chins, not to mention you might cut yourself on the cheekbones if you touch such a skull in the first place.

 

Me personally I just think that long and pointy ears are sexy. Dunno why.

[KumamonTheWorshiper]

 

I always make my dragonborn bitches as ah-knee-may as possible.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Reason: to annoy loremongers.

If you go out of your way to change your game, that only you play, and basically no-one else will see; to "annoy loremongers"... Wow. Priorities man, maybe you should set yours straight.

 

Give me a break mang. I was bored and have nothing to do

 

If you want a real reason: Well what can i say, i'm a pure-blooded asian. And asians looovees asian things.

[carnifex]

I don't really recall anyone "bashing" the Tolkien style elves per se, that being said the fact that he didn't draw them doesn't change the fact that humanized elves of that caliber are affiliated with him, which makes characterizing the style easier. While I don't care for the novels nor the film, I didn't create this topic to bash non-skyrim elves, but to celebrate the skyrim ones.

 

I really don't want to point fingers, but Jexsam talking about "Tolkien fuckery" sure sounds like bashing to me

 

Just to explain my position, I'm not trying to act as a butthurt Tolkien fanboy, but rather explain why I don't think it's appropriate to call this style of elves "Tolkien". Also, any elf lover would be wise to remember that Tolkien basically created elves as they appear in modern fantasy, and pretty much every depiction of elf you can see is inspired by him, either as a bastardization or a deliberate attempt to do something differently. Furthermore, since Elder Scrolls was heavily inspired by the developers' D&D games, and since D&D elves are pretty much ripped whole cloth from Middle-earth (in AD&D, the edition that ruled in the time first TES games were being made, elves didn't even die of old age but rather traveled back to their mythical homeland overseas when their time here was done, which is as clear a ripoff as there can ever be), putting "Tolkien elves" in opposition to "TES elves" is pretty ill-advised, because the Mer races owe a lot to Tolkien, even if ultimately they put their own spin on some things.

 

Going back to the looks, nothing in Tolkien's works suggests an elf could ever be mistaken for human - and in fact, it never happens. Tolkien doesn't dwell much on how people look in his stories, because he was more concerned with their mythological resonance than with creating an easy to visualize world, but whether someone is elf or human (or dwarf, but that's beside the point) is always mentioned in the tone that suggests it's immediately evident to characters. The problem is, it's hard to imagine someone who's obviously inhuman but also extremely beautiful by human standards, so people adapting Tolkien's work to visual media went with thin, sexy people - though even in the case of the movies, they did try their best to make elves look different, by choosing actors with strong facial bone structures and pronouncing them even more through makeup and lighting, so it's obvious they weren't meant to be just "humans, but with pointy ears". TES takes this further, mostly because it can - less human looking elves would look horribly in a live action movie, rendering them is a different beast.

 

As a side point, I'd argue the most prevalent non-lore elf variant for Skyrim is not "Tolkien elves" but rather "anime elves" - about ninety percent of elf presets and followers I see look like they're ripped straight out of Lineage 2, with baby faces and those silly ears protruding sideways.

 

 

 

 

I think that dunmer picture is Jexsam's by the way, and I think it's a beautiful example of a good looking skyrim elf, that isn't just a human with elf ears. Mods made her look better no doubt, but she still looks like a dunmer.

I actually meant the numerous pics Coopervane shows of his/her Dunmer character, but Jexsam also has some nice ones in his collection.

 

I have to say, I really adore this concept art Jex posted - too bad it didn't quite reach this level of "inhuman but interesting and visually pleasing" in the game itself.

[spoonsinger]

 

I don't really recall anyone "bashing" the Tolkien style elves per se, that being said the fact that he didn't draw them doesn't change the fact that humanized elves of that caliber are affiliated with him, which makes characterizing the style easier. While I don't care for the novels nor the film, I didn't create this topic to bash non-skyrim elves, but to celebrate the skyrim ones.

 

I really don't want to point fingers, but Jexsam talking about "Tolkien fuckery" sure sounds like bashing to me

 

Just to explain my position, I'm not trying to act as a butthurt Tolkien fanboy, but rather explain why I don't think it's appropriate to call this style of elves "Tolkien". Also, any elf lover would be wise to remember that Tolkien basically created elves as they appear in modern fantasy, and pretty much every depiction of elf you can see is inspired by him, either as a bastardization or a deliberate attempt to do something differently. Furthermore, since Elder Scrolls was heavily inspired by the developers' D&D games, and since D&D elves are pretty much ripped whole cloth from Middle-earth (in AD&D, the edition that ruled in the time first TES games were being made, elves didn't even die of old age but rather traveled back to their mythical homeland overseas when their time here was done, which is as clear a ripoff as there can ever be), putting "Tolkien elves" in opposition to "TES elves" is pretty ill-advised, because the Mer races owe a lot to Tolkien, even if ultimately they put their own spin on some things.

 

Going back to the looks, nothing in Tolkien's works suggests an elf could ever be mistaken for human - and in fact, it never happens. Tolkien doesn't dwell much on how people look in his stories, because he was more concerned with their mythological resonance than with creating an easy to visualize world, but whether someone is elf or human (or dwarf, but that's beside the point) is always mentioned in the tone that suggests it's immediately evident to characters. The problem is, it's hard to imagine someone who's obviously inhuman but also extremely beautiful by human standards, so people adapting Tolkien's work to visual media went with thin, sexy people - though even in the case of the movies, they did try their best to make elves look different, by choosing actors with strong facial bone structures and pronouncing them even more through makeup and lighting, so it's obvious they weren't meant to be just "humans, but with pointy ears". TES takes this further, mostly because it can - less human looking elves would look horribly in a live action movie, rendering them is a different beast.

 

As a side point, I'd argue the most prevalent non-lore elf variant for Skyrim is not "Tolkien elves" but rather "anime elves" - about ninety percent of elf presets and followers I see look like they're ripped straight out of Lineage 2, with baby faces and those silly ears protruding sideways.

 

 

 

 

I think that dunmer picture is Jexsam's by the way, and I think it's a beautiful example of a good looking skyrim elf, that isn't just a human with elf ears. Mods made her look better no doubt, but she still looks like a dunmer.

I actually meant the numerous pics Coopervane shows of his/her Dunmer character, but Jexsam also has some nice ones in his collection.

 

I have to say, I really adore this concept art Jex posted - too bad it didn't quite reach this level of "inhuman but interesting and visually pleasing" in the game itself.

 

 

Just a propotion. Quite alot of the inspiration for AD&D/D&D, (& Petal Throne - if you know you gaming - but didn't have elves), was from the Dying Earth stuff. Therefore although elves were portraid by over enthusiastic artists in those game evironments, (and subsequently how people played those games based on the illustrations) as being Tolkien like, I will put forward the notion that the TES games are a more accurate representation of what was intended by those games for elves, (i.e. more Vance/Moorcroft/Harrison like than Tolkein).

 

[Jexsam]

No Jexsam, the wrinkles ARE Skyrim's Elves, that is what they added to them with this game, and what they intended for them to look like (and what they will always look like for the Console players). Taking those away and still saying "i like what they did" is ignoring what they did.

 

Seriously, take just one look at those vanilla presets and tell me that you can't understand why Elves failed to garner much support from Skyrim players. They are butt-ugly and there is no getting around that fact without modding them.

 

 

I don't even think you understand that we agree on the underlying point. My elves look like Daggerfall Elves, i haven't changed them drastically, just replaced the ugly as sin textures with prettier ones, so mine closer resemble the smoother Daggerfall/Morrowind Elves, pointy thin faces and all.

 

What they don't look like in my game are the dried up 500 year old mummies that Bethesda gave us with Skyrim, because where did that come from!?!? Since when are the Elves of TES born with massive wrinkles? They certainly never were before!

 

 

This design choice is what killed people's desire to play Elves in Skyrim, the makeover they gave them here just looks awful, and for no good reason, it's not even supported by the lore (though feel free to point out to me that one obscure book that says all Elves look like sundried raisins, if such a thing actually exists).

 

 

Honestly, i belive Bethesda did this just because it was conveniant. They intended for the player to be a Nord, they have a story in which the Dominion is the big-bad evil looming in the shadows and Nords don't like Elves, so they took the easy way out and made Elves look ugly. Can't have the drooling idiots in the cheap seats getting confused, afterall

First, liking something isn't a black-and-white situation. I can like something but choose not to use it. That is not tantamount to ignoring anything. My long post of visual aids stands as a direct contradiction to the claim I've ignored their vanilla looks. Care to try discrediting me again? Third time's the charm!

 

Second, I've never seen any evidence that the elves failed to garner fans. People were rolling their cartoonishly evil Thalmor long before cosmetic mods came out, and most of my own elves predate EEO and my installation of a face texture mod (that I made damned sure still had brow ridges).

 

Third, just because you dislike the elves' looks doesn't mean it was malicious. Nothing we see anywhere supports that claim. Even common sense would see that claim rendered laughable - why actively try to sabotage all the elves? If the Altmer are supposed to be the bad guys, why do the forcibly absorbed Bosmer and completely unrelated Dunmer have to suffer? There's just not reason for them to try something stupid like that in their own game. Occam's Razor says they were just designing them more like they looked before.

 

And fourth, I just provided a mountain of evidence suggesting Dunmer have always had an exotic, alien look, yet you continue to speak as though no evidence has been provided. Skyrim's interpretation is a bit extreme, but well within the examples we can see from past games, with Morrowind standing as its firmest defense.

 

I really don't want to point fingers, but Jexsam talking about "Tolkien fuckery" sure sounds like bashing to me

Only within the context of The Elder Scrolls. I like Tolkien elves just as well as any other, they just have no place in TES.

[carnifex]

 

I really don't want to point fingers, but Jexsam talking about "Tolkien fuckery" sure sounds like bashing to me

Only within the context of The Elder Scrolls. I like Tolkien elves just as well as any other, they just have no place in TES.

 

To clarify once more, I'm not offended or anything. And I actually like that TES elves are visually distinct from... pretty much every other depiction of elves I know of, discounting the rather popular concept that dark elves must have dark skin. I never touch those mods that turn elves into anime cutie pies or slap spiky ears on perfectly human faces, because that has no place in TES in my opinion.

 

I just object to calling this trend "Tolkien fuckery", for reasons previously explained.

 

Peace.

[Ginnyfizz]

I actually think it's good that everyone can have their own opinion, and interesting to see everyone's different concepts of how their elves should be.   Personally I eradicate the brow ridges and shorten the rather scary chins.    That's because I play female characters and like them to look female, and a long chin is a usually masculine trait,  but do try to make my elves look different from my humans.   I'll get up  pictures of my Breton and my Dunmer in game to try and show you what I mean.

 

There is some element of having a pop at Tolkien's concept of elves.   Can I point out that he didn't actually invent the idea of elves being pretty?   He was a Professor of Literature and drew upon various and assorted myths and legends from around Europe.    In Britain alone we have elves (tall and pretty), fairies (small and pretty), spriggans (see the TES version), boggarts (mischievous giggling pranksters), brownies (help around the house), knockers (no not boobs, ugly little buggers who inhabit metal mines) and countless regional variations.  The rest of Europe is the same, there are pretty otherworldly beings and there are fugly ones.

 

Each to their own taste!

[GimmeBACON]

Good to know this topic still got attention while I was at the gym

[Meleeh]

I'm rather fond of the design they went with for the dark elves. It reminds me of the dark elves of Morrowind.

[Kaz Aanh]

 

I'm going to make a crossbreed orc dark elf. Be the deadliest mofo around.

 

All and all to close my opinion I love the vanilla dark elf in skyrim. I haven't played oblivion for like a year so no comment there. I hope in the next tes they look better thou. But I can't complain about skyrims dark elf at all (besides the hair) lol

 

 

Crossbreeds are the best.They take the best assets from the both parents and they are really ( in most cases ) beautiful, just look at the wasians.

 

However my char is kinda mixed breed more like 1/4 or elf and other *unknown* races. Dunno how to call her, the only thing that makes her look like are long sharpy ears ( which are kinda hella ugly and I need to re-design them someday ). Hmm and eyes are also a bit tilted and cheekbones are raised a bit too. The most defining features of elves.

 

 

 

 

 

 

But If you want a "human with the pointy ears "as elves just call them half-elves like I do. Its perfectly fine and lore friendly and it won't upset hard-lore-fans ( probably )

[Kendo 2]

I use Ethereal Elven Overhaul because it addresses the one thing I do not like about vanilla Skyrim elves; and that is the normal maps for the faces.  They are terrible.  EEO fixes that, adds some additional ones and spruces up the elven NPCs.  IMO, they look better but they are still distinctly elves.  They are not humans with pointy ears.

 

Here are some screenshots of what elves look like in my game:

Female Wood Elf (nsfw)

 

 

Female Dark Elf (nsfw)

 

 

My male dunmer and Jenassa

 

 

 

I have to agree with Jexam, for the most part.

 

 

[afa]

For me it is simple I like animu looking lineage 2 elves, which is undoubtedly not "vanilla" or the way the aedra intended, but fuck that!

 

Arguing what is "real" elves is nearly impossible, we have enough argument about what is animu and what isn't and what is real and what isn't even in the -man/human department already. To gauge how a fictional race is suppose to look with no actual real life counterpart and with art direction that could change from each iteration would be a nightmare.

 

Also how has no one post some "since when is X more beautiful than X" pictures yet!?

[PsychoMachina]

I'm partial to Vulcamers.  50% Elf, 50% Human, 100% bad-ass.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[KumamonTheWorshiper]

But If you want a "human with the pointy ears "as elves just call them half-elves like I do. Its perfectly fine and lore friendly and it won't upset hard-lore-fans ( probably )

Say hello to tes lore police.

[Guest]

Ethereal Elven Overhaul's normals and tint masks resolved everything I disliked about elves in my game.  When I make elf characters I'm doing what I personally find visually pleasing, I mean, I'm not going to slavishly abide by lore and end up with something I can't bear the sight of, but I still want them to have that exotic kind of 'offworlder' style Bethesda have established. 

 

Some Google-fu shows how broad the range of look can be without resorting to either bland babes with pointy ears or alien autopsy. Not all of these are TES elves but then Bethesda didn't pull their stuff entirely out of a vacuum either. You say Dunmer, I say Drow etc:

 

 

 

 

 

edit: and in defence of Tolkien elves, we ought to take issue with other peoples interpretation of them in the same way I take issue with sparkly vampires. His world building is a rich broth of northern European and greek mythological sources, stuff like Snorri's edda, Plato's dialogues, Homer's adventure poetry etc.  Lets face it, he's the daddy when it comes to elves, he did all the hard work and now nobody else has to.

 

We can respect Bethesda's attempt to move away from the visual tropes, but we can't remove Tolkien without killing the patient. 

 

 

[GrimReaper]

 

edit: and in defence of Tolkien elves, we ought to take issue with other peoples interpretation of them in the same way I take issue with sparkly vampires. His world building is a rich broth of northern European and greek mythological sources, stuff like Snorri's edda, Plato's dialogues, Homer's adventure poetry etc.  Lets face it, he's the daddy when it comes to elves, he did all the hard work and now nobody else has to.

 

We can respect Bethesda's attempt to move away from the visual tropes, but we can't remove Tolkien without killing the patient. 

 

I like TES elves because they are not a one trick pony like the elves from LotR. LotR elves are a walking cliché - They all are graceful, wise, smart and nimble. Not to forget they all have a close bond to nature. There's no variation at all. TES elves however are how'd you imagine a sentient species to be: versatile. Tolkien's elves are actually more like animals if you think about it, because animals for the most part lack individual behaviour, most traits are bound to the species. There's a wide variety of human behaviour in LotR, but elves for the most part are always the same.

 

 

 

Also I tried making a Dark Elf myself, although I'd bet it's still too human for most people who like TES elves.

 

 

 

[Guest]

 

 

edit: and in defence of Tolkien elves, we ought to take issue with other peoples interpretation of them in the same way I take issue with sparkly vampires. His world building is a rich broth of northern European and greek mythological sources, stuff like Snorri's edda, Plato's dialogues, Homer's adventure poetry etc.  Lets face it, he's the daddy when it comes to elves, he did all the hard work and now nobody else has to.

 

We can respect Bethesda's attempt to move away from the visual tropes, but we can't remove Tolkien without killing the patient. 

 

I like TES elves because they are not a one trick pony like the elves from LotR. LotR elves are a walking cliché - They all are graceful, wise, smart and nimble. Not to forget they all have a close bond to nature. There's no variation at all. TES elves however are how'd you imagine a sentient species to be: versatile. Tolkien's elves are actually more like animals if you think about it, because animals for the most part lack individual behaviour, most traits are bound to the species. There's a wide variety of human behaviour in LotR, but elves for the most part are always the same.

 

 

 

Also I tried making a Dark Elf myself, although I'd bet it's still too human for most people who like TES elves.

 

 

 

 

Nice shot, she's pretty.

 

She's also a prime example of what this thread is on about. I'm all for doing what thou wilt, but posting a rather generically pretty girl with dark skin, red eyes and white hair doesn't exactly do your argument (that Tolkien's elves suck arse and TES ones are teh awesome)  justice. 

 

You have to be trolling Grimster.

[afa]

...is it fair to call the orgin of something where everything else follow cliche

[Kendo 2]

You have to be trolling Grimster.

Huh?  Who'd have thunkit? 

[GrimReaper]

 

Nice shot, she's pretty.

 

She's also a prime example of what this thread is on about. I'm all for doing what thou wilt, but posting a rather generically pretty girl with dark skin, red eyes and white hair doesn't exactly do your argument (that Tolkien's elves suck arse and TES ones are teh awesome)  justice. 

 

 

I was solely talking about what they are, not how they look. I already said that I appreciate Bethesda's effort to make them look slightly alien, but it's just not for me. They did a bad job on the textures and bone structure (just imagine how an elf skull might look based on the faces you see), so that's that. But I like that they are not locked into certain behaviours just because they are elves - in contrast to Tolkien's elves which do the things they do because they're elves.

 

Edit: No, I'm not trolling. I just wanted to give a picture about what I like, and I already said that the looks of the elves in Skyrim are not for me. The first part was only about what they are, a sentient species. When designing a race that should look alien, you have to put a bit more effort into it than just giving them pointy chins and mutated cheekbones. Here's a human skull:

 

 

Now imagine how their skull must look like, I guess Elves just have to deal with a lot of broken jaws.

 

 

 

[Guest]

 

 

Nice shot, she's pretty.

 

She's also a prime example of what this thread is on about. I'm all for doing what thou wilt, but posting a rather generically pretty girl with dark skin, red eyes and white hair doesn't exactly do your argument (that Tolkien's elves suck arse and TES ones are teh awesome)  justice. 

 

 

I was solely talking about what they are, not how they look. I already said that I appreciate Bethesda's effort to make them look slightly alien, but it's just not for me. They did a bad job on the textures and bone structure (just imagine how an elf skull might look based on the faces you see), so that's that. But I like that they are not locked into certain behaviours just because they are elves - in contrast to Tolkien's elves which do the things they do because they're elves.

 

Yeah well, I guess Tolkien wasn't aiming for gritty anti-hero comic book material, hence broad brushed dark versus light vibe.

 

And that chick you posted is still pretty..

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6GDdKrQ8EI

[Ginnyfizz]

. LotR elves are a walking cliché - They all are graceful, wise, smart and nimble. Not to forget they all have a close bond to nature. There's no variation at all.

 

 

 

 

 

If you think that, I suggest reading the Silmarillion.   Even Galadriel turns out to have a past, admittedly not with a direct part in the insanity and murder generated by Feanor and his brood but she rebelled along with them.   There's a huge amount of bad behaviour from Tolkien's elves, they surely are not the "good fairy" all of the time.

 

[Kain82]

I like the base game elves and been using them for four years.  But lately I've been using "Ethereal Elven Overhaul" mod to have a change of pace.  It's prettiny good it smooths out some of the rougher areas while maintaining that elven feel, at least with the Dunmer and Altmer that is.