Paid mods for skyrim.

[Deathmaw]

 

 

 

 

In my country its pretty much a foundation of society that everyone have a right to ask for reward after doing some work.

If you would write that on the wall of a toilet stall, or put that under the title of a book, i think everyone from capitalists to communists would agree.

However, modding was never done in the perspective of paid work.
I'll just copy and paste this post by the Steam user The Spartan<TWM> which is a very good read on the subject, and might open the eyes of a few people:

On Modding & Money, an Argument Against

So now modders can be paid for their work in Skyrim, and I think we can all agree it's a little controversial. I've seen a lot of people flinging ♥♥♥♥ and using ad hominem on both sides of the discussion, but it seems like the most common argument I see used against those who don't want modding monetized in this way (or maybe anyway at all, who am I to say?) is that they're either entitled, or angry because they're too poor to pay for them. Neither of those apply to me, and I don't want my opinion to be discounted with a broad generalization. But the practical concerns (compatibility, reliability, pricing, copyright infringement, DRM, etc.) have already been touched on. The ethics haven't. So here's why monetizing mods is bad.

Modding started in earnest with id in the early 90s. Mods had been made earlier, but Wolfenstein and Doom were the first games to really bring modding to the forefront. Other developers had spurned or entirely ignored modding, going so far as to prevent modifications to their whenever possible and in many cases make it a violation of the EULA. id, namely Carmack, were however strong proponents of the Hacker Ethic[en.wikipedia.org], and added tools and concessions to their games to making modding not just possible, but practicable. "If the players can make their own levels, they won't buy our sequel(s)" was used against modding, but at a potentially great risk to their bottom line they added a development kit and modding tools to their game. In keeping with the hacker ethic, information could be free, and people had the power to make something amazing with limited experience or expertise. More than two decades on, Doom what is perhaps the most vibrant modding community in the history of videogames, and people are to this day making amazing things in it.

This idea of freedom and creation for its own sake has been the central tenet of modding ever since, and we've all benefit. I'm firmly of the opinion that without that freedom to explore and create we'll all suffer. Modding has always been considered something of a public service, spending the time and effort to make something great so everyone (you included!) can benefit. I think that's incredible, but what's more incredible is how long the modding community has persisted. And in that time they've creating everything from tiny game edits to full conversions that rival[www.thedarkmod.com] and even surpass[ja2v113.pbworks.com] the original product. Some even[www.killingfloorthegame.com] become[blog.counter-strike.net] retail[www.teamfortress.com] games[blog.dota2.com]! That's only a small fraction of what's been made, but it was built on the principle of making something you enjoy, and sharing for others to enjoy and maybe even make better!

But somewhere down the line modding turned from a public service into labour, to work. No longer is the bliss of creating something great and sharing it sufficient. And here we are. Modding doesn't exist without the freedom to create and share, which is why it cannot exist behind a paywall. The Workshop's well... shop is an existential threat to the future of modding. Make no mistake, VALVe has a near monopoly on the world of computer games and if this cash shop becomes the norm I fear that modding as it is may disappear forever. Instead of modders, we'll have unemployed labourers, handling the task of fixing an unfinished or broken game that the dev left behind, paid only a mercenary sum of whatever the publisher thinks they're deserving after the Gabe Tax (they get 25% now before local tax, how much lower can it sink?)

I think modding is the single greatest part of videogames, a veritable secret garden in an otherwise shamelessly commercialized enterprise, and if we allow the Workshop's shop to take root it'll be gone forever. Thank you, and if you agree with me please consider signing this petition[www.change.org] to show your opposition. If not, I would love to hear your rebuttal!

__________

 

 

Rules 12: We are a free and open community; members requiring payment for mods, support, or putting anything behind a paywall will be removed without warning. Donation buttons/links to support an author is fine, so long as nothing is promised, given, or rewarded other than a sense of satisfaction for supporting an author or owner of content.

Do we have a heading of Ashal view on the new steam paywall system ?? This could clash with mods being hosted here mainly racemenu or other mods. So how this effect this site now ??

 

Yes we definitely need an official clarification. Sooner or later, SexLab will depend on a mod that is only available on the paid workshop (or depend on a mod that depends on a paid mod).
This seems like a conflict with the forum rules and ethics.

 

 

 

 

 

That pretty much sums up my exact feelings on the topic of paid mods. Good find Guk.

[HopliteZ]

Don't forget that there are still developers that support free modding, like CDProjektRed that promised modding tools, not at launch but after a certain time

 

Also:http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/news/12459/?

 

[Arngrim11]

Sigh I don't have issue with people getting paid in some fashion for their hard work. This could be in the fun or the satisfaction of making someones day better or cash. My issue is with Valve and Bethesda taking in my eyes far more than there fair share. Lets face it guys Bethesda thinking they are entitled to a 45% cut is like an car manufacturer asking a company that manufactures after market tail lights for half thier profits without paying for the labor or material needed for the tail light. The tail light is useless without the car just like the mod is useless without the game. The mod leads to more game sells which is all that Bethesda is entitled to in my opinion.  I'm a prime example of this seeing as I picked up oblivion and skyrim both just for the mods. Valve is the one making the real money here from getting a 30% cut from a service they already provided for free. I'm just sad to see the modder's get shit on by both the companies and the users. Granted I'm not talking about they shameless money grab that required removal of mods that were once free.

[Deathmaw]

ye sure. if its your hobby then you shouldn't make money from it right?

 

 

 

Now go tell CR7 that if he loves play football then he should play for real madrid for free...

for example.

 

 

That example doesn't work. 

 

By following that example if you want to get paid to mod, go and work for a game company. He turned his hobby into a job. You can do that as well, by getting a job at a game developer.

 

Ronaldo wouldn't expect to be paid if he went down to a field and played football with some kids.

[Arizona_Steve]

Don't forget that there are still developers that support free modding, like CDProjektRed that promised modding tools, not at launch but after a certain time

 

Would love to support CDProjektRed, but all of their games are third person, and I don't want to be staring at Geralt's ass all day...

 

[Reenana]

me boycott it C:

 

me never buy game from steam anymore anyway, they dont do aftersales very well :C 

[HopliteZ]

 

Don't forget that there are still developers that support free modding, like CDProjektRed that promised modding tools, not at launch but after a certain time

 

Would love to support CDProjektRed, but all of their games are third person, and I don't want to be staring at Geralt's ass all day...

 

 

 

Ayy LMAO forgot about that for a second :< hes ass tho..

[Hamguy31]

 

In my country its pretty much a foundation of society that everyone have a right to ask for reward after doing some work.

If you would write that on the wall of a toilet stall, or put that under the title of a book, i think everyone from capitalists to communists would agree.

 

However, modding was never done in the perspective of paid work.

I'll just copy and paste this post by the Steam user The Spartan<TWM> which is a very good read on the subject, and might open the eyes of a few people:

On Modding & Money, an Argument Against

 

So now modders can be paid for their work in Skyrim, and I think we can all agree it's a little controversial. I've seen a lot of people flinging ♥♥♥♥ and using ad hominem on both sides of the discussion, but it seems like the most common argument I see used against those who don't want modding monetized in this way (or maybe anyway at all, who am I to say?) is that they're either entitled, or angry because they're too poor to pay for them. Neither of those apply to me, and I don't want my opinion to be discounted with a broad generalization. But the practical concerns (compatibility, reliability, pricing, copyright infringement, DRM, etc.) have already been touched on. The ethics haven't. So here's why monetizing mods is bad.

 

Modding started in earnest with id in the early 90s. Mods had been made earlier, but Wolfenstein and Doom were the first games to really bring modding to the forefront. Other developers had spurned or entirely ignored modding, going so far as to prevent modifications to their whenever possible and in many cases make it a violation of the EULA. id, namely Carmack, were however strong proponents of the Hacker Ethic[en.wikipedia.org], and added tools and concessions to their games to making modding not just possible, but practicable. "If the players can make their own levels, they won't buy our sequel(s)" was used against modding, but at a potentially great risk to their bottom line they added a development kit and modding tools to their game. In keeping with the hacker ethic, information could be free, and people had the power to make something amazing with limited experience or expertise. More than two decades on, Doom what is perhaps the most vibrant modding community in the history of videogames, and people are to this day making amazing things in it.

 

This idea of freedom and creation for its own sake has been the central tenet of modding ever since, and we've all benefit. I'm firmly of the opinion that without that freedom to explore and create we'll all suffer. Modding has always been considered something of a public service, spending the time and effort to make something great so everyone (you included!) can benefit. I think that's incredible, but what's more incredible is how long the modding community has persisted. And in that time they've creating everything from tiny game edits to full conversions that rival[www.thedarkmod.com] and even surpass[ja2v113.pbworks.com] the original product. Some even[www.killingfloorthegame.com] become[blog.counter-strike.net] retail[www.teamfortress.com] games[blog.dota2.com]! That's only a small fraction of what's been made, but it was built on the principle of making something you enjoy, and sharing for others to enjoy and maybe even make better!

 

But somewhere down the line modding turned from a public service into labour, to work. No longer is the bliss of creating something great and sharing it sufficient. And here we are. Modding doesn't exist without the freedom to create and share, which is why it cannot exist behind a paywall. The Workshop's well... shop is an existential threat to the future of modding. Make no mistake, VALVe has a near monopoly on the world of computer games and if this cash shop becomes the norm I fear that modding as it is may disappear forever. Instead of modders, we'll have unemployed labourers, handling the task of fixing an unfinished or broken game that the dev left behind, paid only a mercenary sum of whatever the publisher thinks they're deserving after the Gabe Tax (they get 25% now before local tax, how much lower can it sink?)

 

I think modding is the single greatest part of videogames, a veritable secret garden in an otherwise shamelessly commercialized enterprise, and if we allow the Workshop's shop to take root it'll be gone forever. Thank you, and if you agree with me please consider signing this petition[www.change.org] to show your opposition. If not, I would love to hear your rebuttal!

 

__________

 

 

 

Rules 12: We are a free and open community; members requiring payment for mods, support, or putting anything behind a paywall will be removed without warning. Donation buttons/links to support an author is fine, so long as nothing is promised, given, or rewarded other than a sense of satisfaction for supporting an author or owner of content.

Do we have a heading of Ashal view on the new steam paywall system ?? This could clash with mods being hosted here mainly racemenu or other mods. So how this effect this site now ??

 

Yes we definitely need an official clarification. Sooner or later, SexLab will depend on a mod that is only available on the paid workshop (or depend on a mod that depends on a paid mod).

This seems like a conflict with the forum rules and ethics.

 

Yeah this is BS, The TSGods created the realms out of love, no one paid them to do it.

 

and if there is a God he didn't expect payment for it. Maby entertainment.

[Kimy]

 

Don't forget that there are still developers that support free modding, like CDProjektRed that promised modding tools, not at launch but after a certain time

 

Would love to support CDProjektRed, but all of their games are third person, and I don't want to be staring at Geralt's ass all day...

 

 

 

Staring at Geralt's ass doesn't disturb me much, the fact that I have to play a fixed character in the first place, does. But yeah, I do like the company. I wish more AAA developers were like them.

[guk]

Witcher series is damn nice, i bought parts 1+2 in enhanced-super-duper-editions for a handful of euros on Steam (the irony!).

Part 1 was terribly outdated in the graphics and sound department, so i went to part 2 and that was awesome.

However about modding these games, essentially they are linear shooters with an RPG concept on top. Exactly like Mass Effect and such.
Replay value is practically zero for me after witnessing the story.

[itt1968]

My only real objection to this is the legal issue, which I'm sure all major players have discussed a hundred times over and my only concern is how to handle updates of previously free content and already purchased mods... can we/you/us put a price tag on a mods update?  And since Im now a paying customer, can I be banned for cursing someone out for creating a mod that doesn't fit into my load order? how in the Hells does this modder know what mods I have installed? How do I know its even going to work??? Can I take it for A test drive? I NEED MORE THAN 24 HOURS FOR THAT. Is there a money back guarantee?  Hey ASSHOLE! did you hear what I just said!?!?! IT DONT FUCKING WORK!!! lol Maybe that's a bit of an extreme example, but when you go forcing people to purchase things that were once free, this could easily be a typical email from a would be client... Remember, the customer is always right!   

[HopliteZ]

Witcher series is damn nice, i bought parts 1+2 in enhanced-super-duper-editions for a handful of euros on Steam (the irony!).

 

Part 1 was terribly outdated in the graphics and sound department, so i went to part 2 and that was awesome.

 

However about modding these games, essentially they are linear shooters with an RPG concept on top. Exactly like Mass Effect and such.

Replay value is practically zero for me after witnessing the story.

 

Exactly my thoughts, i hope the third one will be different and not so linear like its predecessors, also wondering how good will modding tools of that game be..

[Heromaster]

 

Anyone remember Locaster ??

http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/16374

 

He asked bethesda to get paid for his mod but was shot down by bethesda a few months ago and now bethesda is actually doing what they where against for a long time. if fallout 4 will go the same way i will now stay away from any bethesda game in the future.

funny - chesko honestly was going to upload every single of his paid mods on nexus after x months of delay.

so for example arissa2 mod would be for pay till say august and then it would be uploaded on nexus.

if every modder would do the same there would be nothing to worry about the future of bethesda games modding.

 

and still - amount of hatred he received likely made him quit modding entirely.

 

I can understand him. If you got such an offer from two major players in the game industry who wouldn't take the opportunity? You can mod and earn money? Sure why not, sounds fair. And at this point one might get the tunnle vision which makes one unable to see the consequences. 25% split is nothing and the hatred of people which are going back to the medieval age, raising their pitchforkes and screaming blood and murder.

 

To be honest, Chesko and other modders (who have or will publish their highly anticipated mods) are the wrong address to blame.

[Phoenix4k]

i guess now the next rounds already in preperation

 

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=429374670&searchtext=

 

DMCA notice for Wet and Cold...

[Vanhal]

Years ago, after first games required online registration to run i spewed paranoid prophecy in a drunken haze - that we would eventually have to buy monthly subscription for single player games. Since then i watched as it slowly, but surely comes to life. Not today, and not tomorrow, but it will. Cash grab on mods is just next step.

 

And we now have pirated mods on the internet. Pirated. Mods. I never thought to see those two words together.

 

Yo ho ho, and a bottle of rum...

[d4nt320]

the only think i know is modders will lose there work.

 

Modders: i want to take down my work

 

Steam: You cant do that

 

Modders: Why is my work i have all the rights and the law is in my side

 

Steam: SR. you not undertand what you agreed for right?

 

Modders: i read all the rights and i have rights to claim my work. I want my work

 

Steam: SR. you cant take your work back and you cant put your work in other page.

 

Modders: I will sue you for this

 

Steam: do what you need to do.

 

after the modders lose all the money to pay the lawyers. Steam wins why You not need to think to much is simple they have to much ZERO and modders not. You want money for your work think because Mods are not legal and are not illegals that is why all the modders always will lose. the legal issue about mods is their rights are not clear.

 

When men are pure, laws are useless; when they are corrupt, laws are broken.-Benjamin Disraeli

 

A lawyer with his briefcase can steal more than a hundred men with guns. -American writer.

 

[Surrealism]

I apologize for posting this again, but I think my post got lost in a rush of other posts several pages back.

 

I have a question, if anyone knows the answer.

 

What happens with the money that modders make? Does it stay in their steam account with no way to withdraw it, or can it be withdrawn? Or is it linked to an external account (such as a bank account)?

 

If it can't be withdrawn, that pretty much makes the only argument in favor of paid mods a moot point.

[Quisling]

I apologize for posting this again, but I think my post got lost in a rush of other posts several pages back.

 

I have a question, if anyone knows the answer.

 

What happens with the money that modders make? Does it stay in their steam account with no way to withdraw it, or can it be withdrawn? Or is it linked to an external account (such as a bank account)?

 

If it can't be withdrawn, that pretty much makes the only argument in favor of paid mods a moot point.

 

http://steamcommunity.com/workshop/workshoppaymentinfofaq/

 

Bank account or PayPal.

 

[modslave]

You know I feel compelled to make a few points here.

 

The Modders involving themselves with the SWS program....a good handful of them are people that have been around for years now. Most of them are well aware of the communities stance on compensation for mod related content.

 

Anyone remember Qarl? I do, probably one of the largest total conversion mods for Morrowind came out of him, The Underground, and it was actually a really nice piece of work, 2.7GB of total overhaul back in the day when 900 MB for a game was an insanely large amount.

 

Qarl started looking for ways to monetize, and soon after he was demonized and run out of the mod community...and eventually banned from the Bethesda forums...for something I can't quite remember now. 

 

Anyways, point in fact here is a lot of content developers make quality additions and extensions to Bethesda games but most of the people doing the best work have been around long enough to know that signing their mods off with Valve like this was tantamount to betraying the very community that supported them in the first place.

 

If you have any knowledge of the last 15 years of TES based modding, you know this doesn't work...you know this is a betrayal of the very principles the TES modding community was developed on. 

 

To continually hear various mod devs making relatively sour grapes because they got a bunch of mean comments on the internet, on a decision that they should have full well known was not going to be popular or well received is really starting to bug me.

 

Because sitting around calling the modding community entitled whiners, while making snide remarks about how everyones ruined your chance to make a little money for your work is hypocrisy personified. Especially the ones that are restricting access to their mods and stomping around talking about quitting the mod community over it.

[Surrealism]

Thank you Quisling. Please disregard my post everyone.

[Gameplayer]

This forum post grew like freaking 5 pages while I was reading one post.

 

I'm not happy, and there is a backlash right now.

 

Mod Makers are arguing now with each other.

 

Wet n Cold was made with resource assets with specific instructions on what was not allowed IE cannot make money of my back yo.

[d4nt320]

LL you see this ?

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2015/04/24/valves-paid-skyrim-mods-are-a-legal-ethical-and-creative-disaster/

 

 

i will create a game and put that game on Apple store and i will get 70% for me. (25% is a Joke)

[Wobble Born]

Wrath is coming guys, make backups.
Free mods of said authors will certainly be taken down when they'll be really pissed off.

So keep them.

[Gameplayer]

LL you see this ?

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2015/04/24/valves-paid-skyrim-mods-are-a-legal-ethical-and-creative-disaster/

 

It's in Valves best interest and the interest of Game Sellers everywhere to kill off free modding.

 

I have 2,100 hours played.

 

I'm not a good little consumer.

 

I don't intend on purchasing outfits, weapons, and that jazz.

 

I never have, why cause I make my own shit and share it with my community.

 

What the fuck.

 

Valve is pissed that my Steam library isn't filling with trash crap games month to month that really are so uninteresting POS that might only entertain me for a mere fraction or that time spent playing Skyrim.

 

Valve wants us to return to typical purchase schemes and no matter how this works out,

 

If we the modders cant get past this it could mean that those who cant create content now have to purchase that crap that companies call a game.

[Quisling]

the only think i know is modders will lose there work.

 

Modders: i want to take down my work

 

Steam: You cant do that

 

Modders: Why is my work i have all the rights and the law is in my side

 

Steam: SR. you not undertand what you agreed for right?

 

Modders: i read all the rights and i have rights to claim my work. I want my work

 

Steam: SR. you cant take your work back and you cant put your work in other page.

 

Modders: I will sue you for this

 

Steam: do what you need to do.

 

after the modders lose all the money to pay the lawyers. Steam wins why You not need to think to much is simple they have to much ZERO and modders not. You want money for your work think because Mods are not legal and are not illegals that is why all the modders always will lose. the legal issue about mods is their rights are not clear.

 

When men are pure, laws are useless; when they are corrupt, laws are broken.-Benjamin Disraeli

 

A lawyer with his briefcase can steal more than a hundred men with guns. -American writer.

 

This is unlikely. The agreement you make when uploading stuff doesn't transfer any of your rights over your own work to Valve. Chesko ran into a problem in that Valve guarantee if someone downloads a mod they can always re-download it through Steam. In fairness, it's the same for games - I can still download Deadpool even though it's not longer for sale on Steam.

 

 

 

You may, in your sole discretion, choose to remove a Workshop Contribution from the applicable Workshop pages. If you do so, Valve will no longer have the right to use, distribute, transmit, communicate, publicly display or publicly perform the Workshop Contribution, except that (a) Valve may continue to exercise these rights for any Workshop Contribution that is accepted for distribution in-game or distributed in a manner that allows it to be used in-game, and (your removal will not affect the rights of any Subscriber who has already obtained access to a copy of the Workshop Contribution.

 

This is in the basic Steam agreement - it's nothing to do with paid mods. You've already agreed to it as well.