Baselined Skyrim Concept?

[KicklerOfButts]

So I've had an idea for a skyrim project floating around my head for a while and thought I'd try and get some feedback from the modding community on it.

The Idea: A "mod" that strategically turns off all the vanilla skyrim quests and sets all NPCs to be killable. By "turn off", I mean simply going into each quest in the CK and preventing them all from starting through something simple like adding a bogus bool check at the triggering stage, or simply deleting the triggers. (The specifics are a WIP but you get the idea.)

Purpose: Ever wanted to make a mod but found you couldn't because there's a vanilla quest in the way or actor who's essential, and you can't rework them because that would be another mountain of work in itself?

Well, what if there was a Baselined Skyrim mod that essentially let you start out with a sandbox?
No vanilla quests (but you can turn them on with your own mod if you want/need them!) and all NPC's are free to use and killable! Shoot Maven in the face with a crossbow and instate someone else as Jarl!

Hypothetically, modders could fill Skyrim with custom quests freely and use all quest areas and NPC's, only having to take into consideration other particular mods they want/need to be compatible with and removing vanilla story restrictions entirely.

I'm well aware it's a mountain of work and research, which is why I'm fishing for responses from modders.
If there was a version of Skyrim made where all the vanilla quests are turned off so that you could use any part of the game you want for your mod (or even make up entire systems of game mechanics), and all the NPC's can reliably be assumed available by default, would you use it at all?

[nilead]

3 hours ago, KicklerOfButts said:

Well, what if there was a Baselined Skyrim mod that essentially let you start out with a sandbox?
No vanilla quests (but you can turn them on with your own mod if you want/need them!) and all NPC's are free to use and killable! Shoot Maven in the face with a crossbow and instate someone else as Jarl!

Here is the problem of practical implemetntation.

 You can do whatever you want! Skyrim is close enough to pure sandbox as is, but you've pushed it to absolute. Now what?

"Install someone esle as Jarl". Good. Where will that replacement content come from? Dialogues to be written, quests to be implemented, voice acting to be done. Thousands of men-hours to fill the entire TES5 with new content. Mods are done by people, mostly for personal use, and each and every one of them only is only used by a fraction of total player base. Someone plays TES5 the dating sim, someone plays TES5 the action rpg, others enjoy their TES5 farmville.

 There might be technicly enough people modding TES5 to actually make a game, wich is what you're suggesting. But there is no agreement on what such a game would look like, so practicly that would never happen. Go to the quest section of LL or Nexus. Imagine that is all you get, substract fundamentally incompatible ones.

 You wont have a cohesive "Skyrim 2.0". You'll have a wasteland. And that is after more than a decade of work.

[Pamatronic]

4 hours ago, KicklerOfButts said:

which is why I'm fishing for responses from modders.

You asked for it...

 

You coming up with this "Great" Idea is about the same as your typical crayon eating 4chan user going to some Historians and being like:

"Guys, I have a great Idea, why you don't just invent a time machine and go back in time to just look stuff up by yourself? Just Imagine! You can do your job without ever having to dig old stuff out of the ground and shit! I´m well aware that it would be a mountain of work to get the thing going, but think of the possibilities!"

 

The Level of ignorance required to come up with this is so ridiculous that there is no point in even trying to explain why it is stupid.

[KicklerOfButts]

45 minutes ago, Pamatronic said:

You asked for it...

 

You coming up with this "Great" Idea is about the same as your typical crayon eating 4chan user going to some Historians and being like:

"Guys, I have a great Idea, why you don't just invent a time machine and go back in time to just look stuff up by yourself? Just Imagine! You can do your job without ever having to dig old stuff out of the ground and shit! I´m well aware that it would be a mountain of work to get the thing going, but think of the possibilities!"

 

The Level of ignorance required to come up with this is so ridiculous that there is no point in even trying to explain why it is stupid.

 

Dude what's with the attitude?

 

1 hour ago, nilead said:

Here is the problem of practical implemetntation.

 You can do whatever you want! Skyrim is close enough to pure sandbox as is, but you've pushed it to absolute. Now what?

"Install someone esle as Jarl". Good. Where will that replacement content come from? Dialogues to be written, quests to be implemented, voice acting to be done. Thousands of men-hours to fill the entire TES5 with new content. Mods are done by people, mostly for personal use, and each and every one of them only is only used by a fraction of total player base. Someone plays TES5 the dating sim, someone plays TES5 the action rpg, others enjoy their TES5 farmville.

 There might be technicly enough people modding TES5 to actually make a game, wich is what you're suggesting. But there is no agreement on what such a game would look like, so practicly that would never happen. Go to the quest section of LL or Nexus. Imagine that is all you get, substract fundamentally incompatible ones.

 You wont have a cohesive "Skyrim 2.0". You'll have a wasteland. And that is after more than a decade of work.

I think you misunderstand slightly, I'm not suggesting an organized re-filling of the sandbox once it's been zeroed or anything like that, and it's not intended to be a universally applicable setup that everyone would want and always run.

I'm not suggesting that anyone sits down and fill up Skyrim with custom quests, I'm suggesting a blank canvas that would give individual modders more freedom to do whatever mods they've always wanted to do but haven't been able to before due to surrounding quests and NPCs. You want to make a quest that replaces who runs Whiterun? Then you could do that without having to take into account all the vanilla quests that would be effected. Just set Baseline Skyrim at a dependency and go ham in the CK.

After you've done that, maybe someone else feels like making some quests for the NPCs in Whiterun besides that damn sword retrieval task and the tusk dildo quest, then someone might want to add some content for the prison, and suddenly Whiterun is no longer the same boring Whiterun as it was 12 restarts ago. Maybe enough content would be developed to work as a whole new game, or maybe there'll only be rogue mods that were too complex or wide-reaching to function before, but either case should suffice perfectly fine for a play-through.

I am NOT suggesting that random mods would be using Baselined Skyrim unless they really need to, it's more of a modders' mod than a user's mod.
(And there's really nothing that says all the vanilla quests have to be turned off, they can always be turned back on if there are no mods to replace them yet.)

[nilead]

18 minutes ago, KicklerOfButts said:

I'm not suggesting that anyone sits down and fill up Skyrim with custom quests, I'm suggesting a blank canvas that would give individual modders more freedom to do whatever mods they've always wanted to do but haven't been able to before due to surrounding quests and NPCs. You want to make a quest that replaces who runs Whiterun? Then you could do that without having to take into account all the vanilla quests that would be effected. Just set Baseline Skyrim at a dependency and go ham in the CK.

Idea of modding is adding on top of allready existing stuff. It allows people to make highly focused effort on one specific thing of interest to them and still have some ambience around it.  You suggest investing a mind-boggling amount of time and effort to remove as much of that ambience as possible and develop from blank slate.

 Any reason anyone would make all that effort to get a blank slate instead of using vastly superiour modern freeware like UE/Unity/Godot?

 

[KicklerOfButts]

21 minutes ago, nilead said:

Idea of modding is adding on top of allready existing stuff. It allows people to make highly focused effort on one specific thing of interest to them and still have some ambience around it.  You suggest investing a mind-boggling amount of time and effort to remove as much of that ambience as possible and develop from blank slate.

 Any reason anyone would make all that effort to get a blank slate instead of using vastly superiour modern freeware like UE/Unity/Godot?

 

The idea of modding is not "adding on top of already existing stuff", it's simply modifying for any reason at all be it large or small, changing something pre-existing or adding something entirely new.

When I say "blank slate" I don't mean removing the game world. All the NPCs are still there, the world is still there, you still spawn into Skyrim and can kills things to level and talk to people etc. there's just no quests like "retrieve the golden claw for the fiftieth time." How many vanilla quests do you actually even give a damn about anymore, when you really think about it?

If you think making a mod from that baseline is even vaguely tantamount of making a full game from scratch in unity/etc then I have to assume you probably have no experience with actual game development. I am not suggesting that someone fills up all of Skyrim with quests from scratch.

Someone could actually get Slaverun working, for instance, since a ton of it's issues are from conflicts with numerous vanilla quests, and even expand on its gameplay.

And to be clear, this is not a request for anyone else to create this mod. What I'm trying to get a feel for is if I want to work on it or if I'd just be wasting my time because no one else would take advantage of it.

[nilead]

6 minutes ago, KicklerOfButts said:

If you think making a mod from that baseline is even vaguely tantamount of making a full game from scratch in unity/etc then I have to assume you probably have no experience with actual game development. I am not suggesting that someone fills up all of Skyrim with quests from scratch.

Someone could actually get Slaverun working, for instance, since a ton of it's issues are from conflicts with numerous vanilla quests, and even expand on its gameplay.

 Whatever you say. Do it then, i assure you nobody will mind.

[KicklerOfButts]

9 minutes ago, nilead said:

 Whatever you say. Do it then, i assure you nobody will mind.

...I wasn't really asking if anyone would mind but nice to have your assurance, I guess?

[wokking56]

20 minutes ago, KicklerOfButts said:

I'm suggesting a blank canvas that would give individual modders more freedom to do whatever mods they've always wanted to do but haven't been able to before due to surrounding quests and NPCs.

 

I get what you are saying but as has been mentioned it is totally impractical. First after the untold hours of negating every quest and removing all the protected NPC statuses what have you got. Well in an unmodded vanilla game a mess. No quests means no homes to stash the handful of crap you may wish to keep, sure you can still sell your stuff but vendors don't have that much cash. No quests also lock you out of an admittedly small number of areas but still those are wasted resources. Daedric artifacts can only be obtained through a quest, regardless of how lame that quest may be. Mehrune's Razor, Sanquine Rose, Wabbajack and Dawnbreaker just to name a few.

 

Great no more go kill bandits at X location for a crappy reward but you will still eventually end up having to kill said bandits anyway. So we wander around do whatever we want with no dumb housecarls to follower us. Hell I do that now. Then we have the number of mods that are already written to dovetail into the vanilla quests. So they need to be completely reworked or just plain scrapped (if the modder is no longer active or moved on to something else).

 

39 minutes ago, KicklerOfButts said:

Whiterun besides that damn sword retrieval task and the tusk dildo quest

 

Sure I understand it is centrally located but with no quests and no home why even bother going there, why not Solitude or Windhelm.

[Pamatronic]

5 minutes ago, KicklerOfButts said:

I have to assume you probably have no experience with actual game development.

And from what you´ve been writing here, I have to assume that you´ve never in your life even touched the Creation Kit or  TESVedit.

Because If youd have done so, you wouldn't claim stuff like this:

6 hours ago, KicklerOfButts said:

Ever wanted to make a mod but found you couldn't because there's a vanilla quest in the way or actor who's essential, and you can't rework them because that would be another mountain of work in itself?

Deleting a vanilla quest and removing an actors essential Flag takes like 10 seconds. Its a non-issue.

 

or This

50 minutes ago, KicklerOfButts said:

I'm suggesting a blank canvas that would give individual modders more freedom to do whatever mods they've always wanted to do but haven't been able to before due to surrounding quests and NPCs. You want to make a quest that replaces who runs Whiterun? Then you could do that without having to take into account all the vanilla quests that would be effected.

The Creation kit has this neat feature called "use info" . In this example, you can Right click Baalgruf, klick the "use info" button, and the CK will throw a list at you with everything that is dependent on Him. Quests, Dialogues, you name it, its there. And then you can just delete everything you need to, make your mod, and leave the rest of the game the fuck alone.

 

And for good measure...

56 minutes ago, KicklerOfButts said:

then someone might want to add some content for the prison,

Inte made a prison overhaul without deleting any vanilla entries. Kimmy made one without deleting vanilla entries. I made one without deleting vanilla entries.... you get the point.

People who actually make mods have zero problems getting around or disabling vanilla content that gets in their way. Its absolutely trivial.

 

 

You´ve asked a Question and got the Answer. Now stop being buthurt just because people didn't praise you for your Great Idea.

There are like 3 guys every week who´ve never done any modding, but still think they are smarter than everyone who has. You aren't the first, you wont be the last. You just got a longer explanation than most.

 

[KicklerOfButts]

18 minutes ago, Pamatronic said:

And from what you´ve been writing here, I have to assume that you´ve never in your life even touched the Creation Kit or  TESVedit.

Because If youd have done so, you wouldn't claim stuff like this:

Deleting a vanilla quest and removing an actors essential Flag takes like 10 seconds. Its a non-issue.

 

or This

The Creation kit has this neat feature called "use info" . In this example, you can Right click Baalgruf, klick the "use info" button, and the CK will throw a list at you with everything that is dependent on Him. Quests, Dialogues, you name it, its there. And then you can just delete everything you need to, make your mod, and leave the rest of the game the fuck alone.

 

And for good measure...

Inte made a prison overhaul without deleting any vanilla entries. Kimmy made one without deleting vanilla entries. I made one without deleting vanilla entries.... you get the point.

People who actually make mods have zero problems getting around or disabling vanilla content that gets in their way. Its absolutely trivial.

 

 

You´ve asked a Question and got the Answer. Now stop being buthurt just because people didn't praise you for your Great Idea.

There are like 3 guys every week who´ve never done any modding, but still think they are smarter than everyone who has. You aren't the first, you wont be the last. You just got a longer explanation than most.

 

Dude seriously, what the fuck is your problem?

I get that you don't see a point in the mod, that's totally fine, but since post 1 you've done nothing but act smug about how stupid I apparently am, how my idea is trash and I clearly know nothing about anything. Why are you acting as if I claimed I invented sliced bread and fucked your mom? Why the condescending-as-fuck talking-down-to?

Do you know what thread you're posting in? Have you confused me with someone else who pissed in your cornflakes this morning?

I literally just went "Hey I was thinking of doing this thing and here's why, would anyone here use it if I did?" and you just went immediately into "You're such an indescribable moron that there's no point in even describing how dumb you are, your idea is shit and everyone else knows better than you."

[Pamatronic]

3 minutes ago, KicklerOfButts said:

I literally just went "Hey I was thinking of doing this thing, would anyone here use it if I did?" and you just went immediately into "You're such an indescribable moron that there's no point in even describing how dumb you are, your idea is shit and everyone else knows better than you."

Admittedly, that first one was maybe a bit overboard, but the point still stands.

 

You don't have any experience in modding and have thereby come up with an completely unworkable Idea. which isn't something new. As mentioned, we see this all the time.

I just felt the need to correct you on a few of your strawman-Arguments about the supposed inability of others to work around the Vanilla game, which you used to defend it.

[SmedleyDButler]

I wouldn't say it's unworkable. Just pointless.

 

If you want to make a game with no Skyrim features at all, then you might as well take the last step and make something like Enderal. Even people who make massively world-changing mods like Zombie Apocalypse Skyrim where you run around killing everyone and everything, or Skyrim Alone, where the PC is literally the only person in the entire game don't need to have EVERY vanilla reference deleted; it's just massive overkill.

[KicklerOfButts]

On 2/11/2022 at 5:37 PM, Pamatronic said:

Admittedly, that first one was maybe a bit overboard, but the point still stands.

 

You don't have any experience in modding and have thereby come up with an completely unworkable Idea. which isn't something new. As mentioned, we see this all the time.

I just felt the need to correct you on a few of your strawman-Arguments about the supposed inability of others to work around the Vanilla game, which you used to defend it.

Nothing I posted warranted any of the things you responded with.

You just assumed (and still are assuming):
1. I know nothing about- and can't mod Skyrim myself. (Which is false, I just haven't released anything.)
2. That I haven't actually looked up how my idea could be done and have no idea how to do it. (Which is false, because I have.)
3. I was trying to be the Messiah of the modding scene with my amazeballs stroke-of-genius fixes-everything mod that no one else thought of but me. (Which is horseshit, I never implied anything of the sort and the fact that you somehow got this impression both baffles and pisses me off.)
4. I asked for praise for my idea when I implied nothing of the sort. (I explicitly asked for thoughts and feedback before wanting to bother with work that no one would want.)

Basically, you were being a judgmental asshole who came in here with your fists-swinging and the mindset that everything I wrote was trying to prove something.
You realize this is a discussion forum, right? Literally the point of a discussion is to discuss your thoughts on the subject, but you're approaching it as an argument that needs to be "won" and the loser "educated" about their wrongs.

I've been here for 6 years dude, stop talking to me like I bought Skyrim for the first time yesterday.

[Andy14]

Ignore the Pamatronic. Although he's often right - here too - some etiquette certainly wouldn't hurt him.
What you are proposing here is to simply open CK and delete all references to Fallout (that are there) and write from NULL to a new game.

Makeable? Yes - many years for one person and not much less for several people. Keyword: Enderal

If you think everything vanilla can be easily disabled/bypassed - then you really should revisit CK and Skyrim. Because then your experience is obviously not enough to understand the scope at all.

[Pamatronic]

1 hour ago, Andy14 said:

What you are proposing here is to simply open CK and delete all references to Fallout

?

[donttouchmethere]

I wouldn't mind a bit Fallout in my Skyrim ?

[worik]

6 minutes ago, donttouchmethere said:

I wouldn't mind a bit Fallout in my Skyrim ?

Careful what you wish for

[donttouchmethere]

Just now, worik said:

Careful what you wish for

What could possible go wrong? Running out of Iodine tablets? ^^

[worik]

11 minutes ago, donttouchmethere said:

What could possible go wrong? Running out of Iodine tablets? ^^

Teaser ? Best with ? ...  your neighbours might get concerned otherwise

Spoiler

 

 

[Andy14]

ist nicht alles. Es gibt noch mehr Leichen zu FO im Skyrim CK. Übrigens gilt das auch umgekehrt.

[donttouchmethere]

4 minutes ago, worik said:

Edited 2 minutes ago by worik

TOO LATE! ?

But they are strangely silent for quite a while already. Should I check on them? ?

[Gukahn]

 

 

14 minutes ago, donttouchmethere said:

What could possible go wrong? Running out of Iodine tablets? ^^

Radio Nazeem?

 

 

 

[worik]

2 minutes ago, donttouchmethere said:

Should I check on them? ?

Spoiler

 

[donttouchmethere]

6 minutes ago, worik said:

I knew it. Cleaning the room can be deadly. That's what you get from not wearing a helmet while sweeping the floor. Safety first, I can't stress that enough!