Diary Of Mine for Paradise Halls [WIP]

[Antiope_Apollonia]

56 minutes ago, TrollAutokill said:

If you start it from "Ok Slave" dialogue, it should at least say "punishing with sex for no reason". If  that's correct, we can easily change the message for the sake of immersion.

It does.  And it puts a rape on their "permanent record" (i.e., the "How are you enjoying your slave life?" panel).  

  

42 minutes ago, TrollAutokill said:

Version 2.0.9 is out with less "not_respectful" messages and some messages about virginity, just for fun.

I actually got a message about virginity in 2.0.8 the other day.  Was kind of a fun surprise, but I've only seen it once.  How is this implemented in 2.0.9?  To avoid weird, immersion-breaking behaviour, the idea that immediately comes to my mind would be to weight the odds of an NPC being a virgin based on voice type (e.g., YoungEager = high, Commoner = highish, Commander = lowish, Mature = low), or maybe a combination of voice type and faction?  It would be weird if the game treats most/all NPCs as all being virgins before you meet them, or if they all have the same chance to be.

[sidfu1]

as is said the rape stuff probably comes down to incomplete things on PAH side.

far as i know the ok slave---> have sex ; this was originally meant to be a reward for the slave. but that part was never finished in original paradise halls and in PAHE it was never fixed to be normal sex.
so you and to the ok slave ask for sex and even if it plays a normal none rape animation it counts as rape for everything pretty much.

[pinky6225]

4 hours ago, DocClox said:

 

It might say that. I'm posting from work and quoting from memory.

 

Yeah it does say that

 

The okay slave ---> i'm gonna fuck you in the pre-DoM days had two outcomes, one slave refuses which led to the punishment menu where you could pick one of the aggressive sex options or i'm going to whip you or two the slave consents and took you to the non-aggressive options/animations (having always use aggressive animations might have altered that, dunno as i never played with that on)

 

Currently if you use the PAH dialogue okay slave --> i'm gonna fuck you on a 100 sex/sub etc slave who also has 100 arousal it acts like its a punishment but under those circumstances it should be consenual (i.e. there trained, there submissive and they horny - why would they refuse?)

 

2 hours ago, sidfu1 said:

as is said the rape stuff probably comes down to incomplete things on PAH side.

far as i know the ok slave---> have sex ; this was originally meant to be a reward for the slave. but that part was never finished in original paradise halls and in PAHE it was never fixed to be normal sex.
so you and to the ok slave ask for sex and even if it plays a normal none rape animation it counts as rape for everything pretty much.

 

Not sure if it was actually meant to be a reward but more a way of getting sex from a slave once sex training had been done since using the dialogue option with a untrained slave led to the punishment menu anyway, without it the only way to get sex from a trained slave would have been to use the punish dialogue or another mod like sexlab eager NPC's to trigger

Edited November 8, 2021 by pinky6225

[TrollAutokill]

4 hours ago, Antiope_Appolonia said:

It does.  And it puts a rape on their "permanent record" (i.e., the "How are you enjoying your slave life?" panel).  

  

I actually got a message about virginity in 2.0.8 the other day.  Was kind of a fun surprise, but I've only seen it once.  How is this implemented in 2.0.9?  To avoid weird, immersion-breaking behaviour, the idea that immediately comes to my mind would be to weight the odds of an NPC being a virgin based on voice type (e.g., YoungEager = high, Commoner = highish, Commander = lowish, Mature = low), or maybe a combination of voice type and faction?  It would be weird if the game treats most/all NPCs as all being virgins before you meet them, or if they all have the same chance to be.

For the moment default virginity status is set from relationships. So it is set to false unless the NPC has a spouse or lover. Vanilla sex is assumed so everybody is oral and anal virgin. 
 

But voice type could be another factor. As for the moment all bandits are pure virgins… Boys and girls

 

All can be overwritten through json file for unique NPC. But the traits need to be listed too or they will default to 50. 
 

Still whip as you can see.

 

Still virginity gives a boost to arousal and chance for orgasm. Not very realistic but funny imho. ?

[TrollAutokill]

On 11/7/2021 at 4:02 PM, Antiope_Appolonia said:

I'm not so sure about that.  There isn't necessarily a one-to-one mapping between rape and punishment sex.  You could definitely rape your slave just because you're horny and she said, "no."  And a well-trained slave would likely consent to being punished sexually if she knows she's broken mistress's rules.  

 

Punishment sex is fine as-is generally, I think.  But non-punishment sex needs to be differentiated between:

1) Aggressive flagged animations, will check for consent, but proceeds as rape if the slave doesn't consent.

2) Non-aggressive flagged animations, will check for consent, and stops if the slave doesn't consent, offering the player the opportunity to instead switch to option 1 or to back out and apply another form of punishment.  

 

It would also be amazing to have a second option for punishment sex where you can either punish with aggressive sex as it is now or, e.g., by denying orgasms, but that'd probably require new animations, so I'd put it way down the list of priorities compared to sorting out the consent situation.

This is in the pahe side of the mod and I would rather follow pahe strategy there to avoid another dialogue. We  are already confused with pahe/hsh dialogues and having pahe/hsh/Dom choices would just add to the confusion.

[Antiope_Apollonia]

20 minutes ago, TrollAutokill said:

As for the moment all bandits are pure virgins… Boys and girls

This is what I feared.  That seems quite... implausible.  I would say there are bigger fish to fry than a virginity system (see my previous 50,000 words, lol), but it will be a nice addition.  I think it's really important that there be a mechanism to make its implementation feel more plausible.  Your use of the relationship system for unique NPCs is a very good idea, but that by itself will leave a lot of unimmersive oddness.  Even a simple random roll would be decent for the majority of cases, but I think weighting it by voice type would eliminate most of the remaining oddities.  

 

31 minutes ago, TrollAutokill said:

All can be overwritten through json file for unique NPC. But the traits need to be listed too or they will default to 50. 

So the same .json covers both, aye?  This is very good news.  In the long run, we'll be able to build a good lore-friendly catalogue of profiles.  

 

29 minutes ago, TrollAutokill said:

This is in the pahe side of the mod and I would rather follow pahe strategy there to avoid another dialogue. We  are already confused with pahe/hsh dialogues and having pahe/hsh/Dom choices would just add to the confusion.

I agree, it would be better to not add more redundant dialogue trees.  I think the best solution would be to rework the base PAHE sex options.  

[sickboy791]

switches in mcm are broken, or is it just me ?

[TrollAutokill]

42 minutes ago, sickboy791 said:

switches in mcm are broken, or is it just me ?

The page you get when selecting the mcm is just display. You have to select the option page (below the mod title on the left) to be able to change them. Been fighting with mcm a long time about that, before I decided to let it go.

[Antiope_Apollonia]

On 11/2/2021 at 11:25 PM, Antiope_Appolonia said:

I don't really understand the "comfort" mechanic.  Many times, when I praise a sobbing/shocked slave, I just end up "praising a sobbing ... for no reason"—but I have a reason!  I completely understand the desire to not needlessly multiply hotkeys, but perhaps these two features should be separated?  Comforting one of your favourite slaves when she's sad is one of the most gratifying/immersive things you can do with DOM, but right now, it just doesn't work very well.  It's also really inconsistent whether or not the hug animation plays when you do successfully comfort.  Even in its current awkward state, I find that this feature adds a ton of value to the game, but improving it also seems like one of the lower-hanging fruits for making DOM even better.  Also, on a separate but related note, I would propose considering rewording "Praising [slave] for no reason" to something more like "Praising [slave]... just because."  The current wording gives it quite a negative connotation, which is a little unimmersive—if I choose to do a thing, why would I characterise it negatively?  The proposed alternative would leave it more to the player's imagination—it just says the player did it for her/his own reasons.

I would still be very interested in hearing from @TrollAutokill on this.  I keep running into instances where it doesn't work the way I understand it's meant to, and I keep getting frustrated.

[TrollAutokill]

29 minutes ago, Antiope_Appolonia said:

I would still be very interested in hearing from @TrollAutokill on this.  I keep running into instances where it doesn't work the way I understand it's meant to, and I keep getting frustrated.

On the todo list.

[Antiope_Apollonia]

1 hour ago, TrollAutokill said:

On the todo list.

But can you explain how it works currently?  (Unless, of course, you've nearly cracked the issue and it'll be rendered irrelevant very soon.)  Because I can't work out a pattern to when it does/doesn't work.

Edited November 8, 2021 by Antiope_Appolonia

[sidfu1]

4 hours ago, pinky6225 said:

Not sure if it was actually meant to be a reward but more a way of getting sex from a slave once sex training had been done since using the dialogue option with a untrained slave led to the punishment menu anyway, without it the only way to get sex from a trained slave would have been to use the punish dialogue or another mod like sexlab eager NPC's to trigger

in the original PAH it was meant to be a reward. it was how you where meant to raise respect or such.  you can see part of the system at work if you look at how you can raise  respect by healing a slave or use to couild do that

[TrollAutokill]

7 hours ago, Antiope_Appolonia said:

But can you explain how it works currently?  (Unless, of course, you've nearly cracked the issue and it'll be rendered irrelevant very soon.)  Because I can't work out a pattern to when it does/doesn't work.

Comforting only works for shocked slaves right now. Not sad ones. I will add a dialogue to comfort both and you will be able to decide if you prefer to yell at them, comfort them, or sex them.

Edited November 9, 2021 by TrollAutokill

[xyzfs]

Will DD prevent the slaves from running away? (hope not, but I think it does in PAHE)

[Antiope_Apollonia]

2 hours ago, TrollAutokill said:

Comforting only works for shocked slaves right now. Not sad ones. I will add a dialogue to comfort both and you will be able to decide if you prefer to yell at them, comfort them, or sex them.

That will be an excellent addition!  I look forward to it.  Right now, even for shocked slaves, sometimes I get "praise for no reason" rather than comfort half the time.

[Rainer Unsinn]

Are Dawnguard, Dragonborn & Hearthfires hard requirements? Mod Organizer reports these as missing masters and the game crashes after the load screen, but I thought they are just optional. I'm using LE...

Edited November 9, 2021 by Rainer Unsinn

[Antiope_Apollonia]

2 hours ago, Rainer Unsinn said:

Are Dawnguard, Dragonborn & Hearthfires hard requirements? Mod Organizer reports these as missing masters and the game crashes after the load screen, but I thought they are just optional. I'm using LE...

Since it's developed for SE and then backported to LE, it's likely that it's set up with the DLCs as dependencies so that it works seamlessly everywhere without needing a patch.  But you'll have to wait for Troll to give you a definite answer; I'm just conjecturing.  

[Antiope_Apollonia]

I just had a thought for @TrollAutokill and/or @CliftonJD...

 

Apropos of the tangent about chattel vs. Classical slavery with @InsanityFactor, how difficult would it be to have an MCM option to make killing slaves a crime?  I think, ideally, you'd want other slaves not to count as witnesses (or even more ideally, bonus points if untrained slaves are witnesses, but past a certain training threshold, they're not)*, and maybe the bounty should be e.g., 500 gold instead of 1000 for murdering freedmen.  The gameplay impact of adding something like this wouldn't be so large, so if it's difficult to do, it probably isn't worth the effort, but if it's fairly easy to do, it'd be a cool little addition to make slavery better integrated into the world lore-wise.  

 

*EDIT: Or, conceivably, you could even make it so that it always triggers a bounty, regardless of witnesses being present or not, since the slave is registered as your responsibility, and if they go missing, it leads only to you.  Maybe, for maximum realism, it should trigger a larger bounty (let's say 600 gold) if there is a witness and a smaller bounty (let's say 300 gold) if there isn't—on the logic that without a witness, it can't be proven that you killed her, but it can be established that you're at least guilty of negligence for letting her be killed.  Of course, I'm just spitballing here—it wouldn't have to be this intricate to be neat.

Edited November 9, 2021 by Antiope_Appolonia

[Antiope_Apollonia]

On 11/4/2021 at 9:44 PM, Antiope_Appolonia said:

Some of what's going on may have something to do with the use of Devious Devices plugs, too, but again, I haven't had the chance to get to the bottom of what's going on yet.  I'd be very grateful for any insight anyone can share, here, though.  

I still haven't tried Deviously Non-Devious Devices yet, but I switched to using Darkwood Manufacturing buttplugs—which further have the advantage of compensating for not having access to clothing enchantments (so I don't have to get in trouble to fully upgrade mistress's weapons, for example), and look really good despite slight clipping—and so far, I haven't had any more issues with animations being inexplicably blocked. 

 

I still have some issues with armbinders, but at least those issues make some kind of sense.  I think part of the remaining trouble is just a matter of limited armbinder animation options.  Although sometimes, when I try to have sex in an armbinder, it ends up causing my (unbound) partner to play the DDArmbinderSolo animation while I just watch, which clearly shouldn't be happening.  

[TrollAutokill]

3 hours ago, Antiope_Appolonia said:

Since it's developed for SE and then backported to LE, it's likely that it's set up with the DLCs as dependencies so that it works seamlessly everywhere without needing a patch.  But you'll have to wait for Troll to give you a definite answer; I'm just conjecturing.  

 

5 hours ago, Rainer Unsinn said:

Are Dawnguard, Dragonborn & Hearthfires hard requirements? Mod Organizer reports these as missing masters and the game crashes after the load screen, but I thought they are just optional. I'm using LE...

 

There should not be any hard dependency with DoM and I believe PAHE was setup the same way.

 

[ChingChongWong]

Is there an ETA on a new version for LE or at least a way to decrease the npc stats instead of punishing for no reason?

[TrollAutokill]

11 minutes ago, donglin216 said:

Is there an ETA on a new version for LE or at least a way to decrease the npc stats instead of punishing for no reason?

 

11 minutes ago, donglin216 said:

Is there an ETA on a new version for LE or at least a way to decrease the npc stats instead of punishing for no reason?

Nope. CliftonJD might do it when he is in the mood.

[pinky6225]

2 hours ago, Antiope_Appolonia said:

I just had a thought for @TrollAutokill and/or @CliftonJD...

 

Apropos of the tangent about chattel vs. Classical slavery with @InsanityFactor, how difficult would it be to have an MCM option to make killing slaves a crime?  I think, ideally, you'd want other slaves not to count as witnesses (or even more ideally, bonus points if untrained slaves are witnesses, but past a certain training threshold, they're not)*, and maybe the bounty should be e.g., 500 gold instead of 1000 for murdering freedmen.  The gameplay impact of adding something like this wouldn't be so large, so if it's difficult to do, it probably isn't worth the effort, but if it's fairly easy to do, it'd be a cool little addition to make slavery better integrated into the world lore-wise.  

 

*EDIT: Or, conceivably, you could even make it so that it always triggers a bounty, regardless of witnesses being present or not, since the slave is registered as your responsibility, and if they go missing, it leads only to you.  Maybe, for maximum realism, it should trigger a larger bounty (let's say 600 gold) if there is a witness and a smaller bounty (let's say 300 gold) if there isn't—on the logic that without a witness, it can't be proven that you killed her, but it can be established that you're at least guilty of negligence for letting her be killed.  Of course, I'm just spitballing here—it wouldn't have to be this intricate to be neat.

 

Don't think it would be "more lorewise" since slaves are property so if you decide to kill your property that wouldn't be a crime, same as if you decide to pick up something in your house, thats not theft

 

If you decide to kill a slave belonging to someone else that would be a different matter though but that would be more the theft/destruction of property than murder like if you killed a free person

[TrollAutokill]

Version 2.1.0 is out. It’s a new platform to improve on slave dialogues and feelings. 
 

What’s new:

 - two more variation of the afraid mood: terrified makes freshly captured slave easy to manipulate and afraid is a fearful state of mind for slaves wanting to run away. Last variation is same as before and is called scared. See mod description for a complete list of moods.

- Mood swing is limited so that slaves keep their mood for an average of 10 ticks. Punishing them or sexing them might accelerate the mood swing. Like one hit is equivalent to 1 tick. Tell me if this is still too much mood swing.

- Comfort crying/sad/shocked slaves with dialogue “Listen to me slave” -> “What’s wrong with you?”. Then you have the choice between guilt, care, insult or sex the slave. 
 

The sex animation was not working in my test, it needs more debugging. Tell me if you have the same results.

Edited November 9, 2021 by TrollAutokill

[DocClox]

2 hours ago, Antiope_Appolonia said:

Or, conceivably, you could even make it so that it always triggers a bounty, regardless of witnesses being present or not, since the slave is registered as your responsibility, and if they go missing, it leads only to you

 

Thing is, there's no lore justification for slavery. It's been illegal across the Empire since Helseth outlawed the practice in Morrowind more tab two hundred years agone. Now there may well be some equivalent status in the Aldmeri Dominion - certainly the Atmer have a history for using goblin slave armies, for instance. Still nothing in Lore explains how slavery works.

 

And to add to that, we don't really have any mod framework that explains why it's happening in Skyrim. Everyone maybe has their own headcanon, but there's nothing definitive. So based on that...

 

I'd say that

• Firstly, slavery was and remains illegal in Skyrim. Possibly modified by how much AYGAS has affected local custom in your game, but the baseline is illegality.
• Secondly, there are, perhaps, slavery-like practices in force. Both side of the civil ware lead captives around the countryside. Maybe having a captive and leading her around on a leash isn't entirely frowned up. Keeping her tied and naked is not perhaps considered good taste in some circles, but not actually illegal.
• Thirdly, and the point at hand, not being slaves, you'd have no right to kill them out of hand. So I'd be quite happy if killing a slave incurred the same penalties as killing a free person. Maybe a 20% discount on the fine out of consideration for the slaver's difficult circumstance or something.
• Fourthly, I don't think slave testimony should be admissible about their captor.  If we accept that keeping these captives has some basis for acceptance, then it seems reasonably that many of them would like their heads off to get their master in trouble. So I'd say that slaves shouldn't count as witnesses if you did kill another slave.
• Fifthly, this also raises the question of whether raping slaves should be considered criminal or not. Personally, I'd tend to leave it as it is and let some other sex mod take the strain on that one.

All that said: I don't have any problem with the current stat of affairs. I'm just trying to think through the issues a little for whatever it may be worth. (Plus, it was an interesting question).