Game Difficulty- Do You Like it Hard? ;)

[KoolHndLuke]

5 hours ago, legendarytoyou said:

FFXIV

Playing FFXIII again and am reminded how rewarding having to think about how to defeat different enemy compositions at different levels with different skill sets is. Do I upgrade this weapon/accessory or another? Do I sell these items I hardly ever use or hold on to them for tough fights with enemies that do a specific kind of damage? Do I use this teammate for this fight or another? How should I level them all because sometimes you need a ravager/commando and sometimes you need everyone to be sentinels against enemies that do a crazy amount of damage in swift or built up attacks. Figuring it all out and being king of the hill is it's own special slice of heaven. 

 

Typically I play heavily modded games like FO4/Skyrim to get off. When done I switch to something like FF to satisfy my gaming fix for all the hours that follow. Can you imagine what it would be like if had the same mod support for JRPG's? Awesomeness.

[legendarytoyou]

2 hours ago, KoolHndLuke said:

Playing FFXIII again and am reminded how rewarding having to think about how to defeat different enemy compositions at different levels with different skill sets is. Do I upgrade this weapon/accessory or another? Do I sell these items I hardly ever use or hold on to them for tough fights with enemies that do a specific kind of damage? Do I use this teammate for this fight or another? How should I level them all because sometimes you need a ravager/commando and sometimes you need everyone to be sentinels against enemies that do a crazy amount of damage in swift or built up attacks. Figuring it all out and being king of the hill is it's own special slice of heaven. 

 

Typically I play heavily modded games like FO4/Skyrim to get off. When done I switch to something like FF to satisfy my gaming fix for all the hours that follow. Can you imagine what it would be like if had the same mod support for JRPG's? Awesomeness.

Hence that sense of accomplishment.  You don't really get that in un-modded Skyrim and Fallout 4.  Certain mods that I'm using DO make it more interesting though.  TiFA for example makes the game INFINETLY more difficult and challenging (please don't get mad at me moderators for posting this https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/19956

Behemoths with TiFA installed for example are insane (getting one shot is a norm in some occasions).  Deathclaws are nightmarish at times and I won't even count how many times I've been smoked by Fog crawlers in Far Harbor.

 

Point is though the game is actually fun instead a chore.  A lot of Fallout fans didn't want a Borderlands clone; THEY WANTED FALLOUT.  Nearly everyone I know goes out of their way in Fallout New Vegas for example to go Hardcore because by itself New Vegas is great but with Very Hard mode and Hardcore involved it becomes REALLY enjoyable.  That should be a sign to Bethesda to stop making games that hideously easy and the most challenging stuff is little more than bullet sponges but no real difficulty at all really.

[Swanky]

It really depends on the game whether I like it hard or not. Many games I also just play for the story. And most games don't really get the difficulty curve right anyway - just think back to any rubberbanding racing game which is just annoying rather than challenging.

Games like New Vegas sit in the middle because I can mod them and have done so to up the challenge where it does not affect NPCs just having a trillion health and pin point one shot you. They can be a challenge but more so in a roleplaying sense, less of a combat sense.

 

Other games I absolutely want to be brutal, like Devil May Cry or Bayonetta or even XCom 2 which got the difficulty right right out of the box.

On higher difficulties, enemies become faster, take a bit more damage, deal more damage and higher level enemies are thrown into the mix right from the get go. However, in both DMC and Bayonetta higher difficulties are locked until you cleared the easier difficulties and the game expects you to have a good grasp on the mechanics. Both games still make everything feel balanced (even when Bayonetta takes away witch time on Infinite Climax difficulty), but you really have to know the mechanics and patterns by then.

 

A bit different is XCom where the game starts super difficult but gets easier the more time you play and unlock higher tier equipment and have your people live long enough to level up. Of course, ADVENT gets bonusses in form of health and damage buffs, but the progression curve is also changed on legendary difficulty. Throw in an optional Ironman mode which makes your progress and decisions persistent (you basically can't cheese by save scumming anymore) and you've got one hell of a difficult strategy game. It's one of the few where they got difficulty right. Throw in randomized maps, missions and overall campaign progress, mod support with #sufferingisfun (yes that's an acutal hashtag in the modding community for this game) that adds even more brutal enemies, lategame challenges and a far more advanced AI and a couple of other goodies and you have a really replayable game, even if you curse your "soldiers" for not hitting that 95% hit chance like every mission.

 

However, challenging games have become more popular of the past years. Dark Souls, Kaizo Mario hacks (check out Grand Poo World 2 or Invictus for reference) have become pretty popular, so for a lot of people difficulty is part of the enjoyment. That's a good thing I'd say.

 

Overall I'd say it really depends on the game, not even on the genre, if difficulty should be a trait that defines it. The Diablo 2 immunities are annoying at best, but Titan Quest can be downright vicious on the highest difficulty. Senua's Sacrifice is a tense and very atmospheric story whereas DMC 4 boasts an indepth combat system. And that's where I'm drawing the line. Do I just want to experience a good story or an atmospheric game? Do I want to challenge myself? And if so, how well done is the game to actually support the challenge? Speedrunning against time, myself? Or overcoming the toughest of bosses on the hardest difficulty setting? Do I want to play Kaizo Marios? I don't want the game to become a slog, that's when the setting is off.

[KoolHndLuke]

And now I remember what western RPGs have over JRPGs; side quests that you can go back and do once the main story is finished. Craftmanship wise JPRGs are far superior to most, but follow a very familiar formula giving the player very little (if any) choice. In terms of difficulty the approach of many do give you more flexibility, but also in a very rigid structure that still doesn't deviate from an all too familiar formula. Great polish with not a lot of innovation because they like to play it safe whereas WRPGs will try new things and don't mind a few scrapes and bruises from learning.

[Shadowlark]

On 10/23/2020 at 9:50 PM, KoolHndLuke said:

And now I remember what western RPGs have over JRPGs; side quests that you can go back and do once the main story is finished. Craftmanship wise JPRGs are far superior to most, but follow a very familiar formula giving the player very little (if any) choice. In terms of difficulty the approach of many do give you more flexibility, but also in a very rigid structure that still doesn't deviate from an all too familiar formula. Great polish with not a lot of innovation because they like to play it safe whereas WRPGs will try new things and don't mind a few scrapes and bruises from learning.

i remember reading an article somewhere that talked about how western rpg's, because they tend to be character-based, are designed to be much less rail-roady than jrpg's, which are story-based.

 

when the idea is to become the character, as in western rpgs, you want to give the player as much agency as possible (or at least, do as good a job at creating the illusion of player agency as possible).  so you give them a main storyline, but you give them a ton of side quests, interesting characters to interact with, etc.  you let the player become the character and decide how the game progresses.

 

when the idea is to have the player act as a sort of observer of the story by riding piggy-back on the player character, player agency becomes less critical relative to crafting a good storyline.  the necessity of having side quests and whatnot is lessened because the draw of the game isn't the illusion of player agency, its the story the player is watching unfold.

 

having a scripted protagonist (jrpgs) vs blank-blank slate protagonist (western rpgs) has a huge effect on the priorities of the writers and developers of a game, which of course has a huge impact on the gameplay and presentation.

[Valgo]

There is the occasional game where I will go for a harder difficulty eventually (Far Cry 5, the Halo Games), usually when it goes along with unlocking stuff but most of the time I'm your typical basic-bitch-plays-it-on-normal kinda person.

And when it's a game I've beaten before and come back again for another run later I might even go full on cheating bastard. Best example: Nowadays I play Fallout 4 or Skyrim with levelers tower or cheat engine and stuff like that because it's not about the challenge anymore if it ever was in the first place.
 

[Guest]

Bethesda hard - no. All they do is nerf player damage and increase ai damage. It's lame.

 

Other games increase AI skill, better pathing and cover, better weapon accuracy, better group tactics, etc. That's how it's supposed to be done.

 

I like "tactical hard" more than "increased damage" hard.

[Guest]

Depends. I like hard games in small doses, mostly weekends. I love the Dark soul series but it's legit tough on my neuralgia. During the week i'd rather relax on something chill like Beth games.

I see that i'm not alone here, but Sekiro was the perfect amount of difficulty and restrictions. No cheesy builds, and no summoning 3 Havel pals. Which made achievements a lot more meaningful imo

Which reminds me of Demon soul's going exclusive again. Damn you PS5 !

 

Speaking of Bethesda's DiFfICuLTY, I actually really liked Fallout 4 early levels on survival. Wish the whole game could stay that way, but even with raider & mutants overhauls, once you hit lv.20 it's a walk in the park. Think they were going the right direction though, they just gotta find a way to keep it steady. Lower your guns not advocating for perks gutting / perk checks & weak dialogs/story ?

[-Ayleth-]

I ususally play my games on the highest difficulty aslong as it doesn´t get annoying. Sometimes reloading for the 100th time to beat this one enemy in a strategy you thought of can be fun, sometimes extremely frustrating. When my Fallout 4 used to work without crashing with everything I do, I really loved playing the game on a difficulty where a couple of shots instantly downed you and using the Agony mod to make healing way harder. Trying to use chems like jet to get the advantage or snipe enemies from afar was a lot of fun. Using traps like mines or beartraps was fun too. Sadly that all is no more and I´m stuck with my good old friend Skyrim, which isn´t all that bad. Although using extreme difficulty in skyrim is too difficult for me. If you use a Sword in close combat, you´ll just get staggered while blocking and beaten down with a good swing of a battleaxe and using a bow is a wobbly and inaccurate weapon that may hit the enemies that happen to be arrowsponges.

[Bratty Cheeks - RMCW]

I play games mostly on hard settings but that's cause they are mostly balanced so easy for an avid gamer.

 

Honestly though I'd say that difficulty settings like this are mostly are a bad idea, I don't think a difficulty slider should be included at all.

[landess]

Using the 'double-entendre' meaning behind the post title - If one has modded a game to create a form of sexual reward or tension for losing, then making a game more difficult as a way to experience these options without 'throwing' the game seems a natural evolution of choice.

 

Night of Revenge would be a good example of this without mods.....

 

Spoiler

https://www.xvideos.com/video49757469/night_of_revenge_demo_version_0.28_-_animation_gallery_uncensored_

 

[FauxFurry]

The DeModcracy made the Dark Souls Ninja Gaiden Black of videos on balancing game difficulty.

 

[scarletxx4]

my mom likes it hard, specially from strangers

[ToJKa]

On 10/26/2020 at 8:52 PM, Prince Rurik of Novgorod said:

Bethesda hard - no. All they do is nerf player damage and increase ai damage. It's lame.

 

Other games increase AI skill, better pathing and cover, better weapon accuracy, better group tactics, etc. That's how it's supposed to be done.

 

I like "tactical hard" more than "increased damage" hard.

Or just increase enemy numbers and quality, like classic Doom.

Recently released Project Wingman (Ace Combat style game) does the same, though it may go a bit too far with it, since there's five ariships and three land cruisers in the fourth mission. And the missions don't have checkpoints, and no way to repair or rearm.

 

Cyberpunk i stright up started on Hard difficulty.

When i play Quake for the first time i did it on Nightmare difficulty, the flying things were a lot easier when i later replayed it on Hard

 

So the answer would be yes, though i usually select the second hardest difficulty, since these days hardest difficulty usually messes with the gameplay mechanics in some way.

 

But i'm from the 80's. I beat original Megaman. Hell, i almost beat (NES) Battletoads! (Man, that Dark Queen was hot )

[GimmeBACON]

I start all games on the hardest difficulty possible... and die until I git gud nuf.  

 

It's not like I play the hardest of games though.

[Myst42]

I think I prefer a challenge, but not so hard that it makes one rage. Gaming is about enjoyment and escapism after all, and I'm not a masochist.

 

That said, i did relatively recently played through the entire dork souls saga.

I was told I would rage hard, but actually, I faced it on a different mind setting, I was prepared to die because I understood that dying is actually part of the mechanics of the game and it's very story. You dont just die because you failed, you die because the story says you have to die in order to git gud and be able to pass shit. Your'e supposed to die. That idea is not that annoying, it's an exercise in patience and perseverance.

Can't say it was a perfect mind setting though... there were times I almost lost it... I did git gud, but it's different for everyone. For example a certain dragon in DS3 took me like 300 attempts, and it was probably my worst dark souls PTSD.

Can't for the life of me understand how some people can manage to play that thing and kill those bosses on either the first or less than 3 attempts. Even have heard of people who gits so gud that the entire saga stops being a challenge for them anymore (and sometimes they're forever damaged because every other game is no challenge for them either ?)

 

Some people just enjoys the pain. I prefer challenge and reward. Think it's that simple.

 

To be honest, excepting specific trollling moments like that dragon or other ambushes. Dark souls isn't that bad regarding difficulty. Most of the thing is playable, only it could use some more tutorials at first to introduce you better to the world, and it could use less getting one-shotted by certain enemies, though all of this will seem like the worst heresy to hardcore fans and if any of them reads this they'll probably blacklist me and hate me for life.

 

Also more in general, I was saying DS has good and shitty in it... Among the good, is that difficulty usually depends on actual combat skill instead of infinite HP bars. Can't think of a cheaper and shittier method of increasing difficulty than turning enemies in HP sponges. I really really hate HP sponges.

[woodsman30]

I like a game that makes you think and plan. Most leveled games are kinda sad as once you hit a certain level nothing is hard. I guess that is why I still play a game like Skyrim it can be changed a 1,000 different ways... CC commands... CK, TES5edit, and of course mods. Skyrim I usually start the game at level 50 with level 1 stats I want to see all weapons and armors used right out of the box if is in the game it should be seen from the get go so all NPC can wear leveled armor. So basically every thing is 50 levels higher than me all things scale in my game.. Add some combat overhauls, dungeon mods, effect mods ( frostfall Ineed ect..) and a shit load of NPC of all types now you have a game. Followers are a must as without them you will just die even then going into a cave requires potions, food, misc. supplies and a plan including retreat if necessary. All followers have a salary they get paid per day plus food/shelter so it requires me to work, hunt, scavenge just to keep one around and yes they will leave if I cannot pay them. Is it hard ...yes ....is it tough... oh yea... It requires a plan to just stroll down to a village for supplies so thinking is always required even who is following you to make sure they have the right skills for the quest at hand. 

So in summary ....yes a harder game makes for a better game play because boredom with the game means game over.

[FauxFurry]

7 minutes ago, woodsman30 said:

I like a game that makes you think and plan. Most leveled games are kinda sad as once you hit a certain level nothing is hard. I guess that is why I still play a game like Skyrim it can be changed a 1,000 different ways... CC commands... CK, TES5edit, and of course mods. Skyrim I usually start the game at level 50 with level 1 stats I want to see all weapons and armors used right out of the box if is in the game it should be seen from the get go so all NPC can wear leveled armor. So basically every thing is 50 levels higher than me all things scale in my game.. Add some combat overhauls, dungeon mods, effect mods ( frostfall Ineed ect..) and a shit load of NPC of all types now you have a game. Followers are a must as without them you will just die even then going into a cave requires potions, food, misc. supplies and a plan including retreat if necessary. All followers have a salary they get paid per day plus food/shelter so it requires me to work, hunt, scavenge just to keep one around and yes they will leave if I cannot pay them. Is it hard ...yes ....is it tough... oh yea... It requires a plan to just stroll down to a village for supplies so thinking is always required even who is following you to make sure they have the right skills for the quest at hand. 

So in summary ....yes a harder game makes for a better game play because boredom with the game means game over.

It sounds like you might enjoy the X-Com series. Levels only give troops more options and makes them slightly more effective in combat but never allows them to increase in power so much that they can clear a map of enemy troops all on their own or even to survive being killed in one critical hit by a major enemy such as the Chosen. 

[W1cked]

If I don't have to try a thing atleast 10 times - it's not hard enough ? I GOTTA HAVE TO SAVESCUM, or I'm not happy ?

 

On 12/13/2020 at 10:59 PM, FauxFurry said:

It sounds like you might enjoy the X-Com series. Levels only give troops more options and makes them slightly more effective in combat but never allows them to increase in power so much that they can clear a map of enemy troops all on their own or even to survive being killed in one critical hit by a major enemy such as the Chosen. 

It has snipers missing shots that have a 90% chance to hit, right when you need it the least. X-Com is great +1!

[Buridan]

I don't mind a challenge, but I think for it to feel fair the combat has to also be tight and responsive. The more finesse a game demands from a player, the more tightly-designed and jank-free it has to be. A good example is Dark Souls, or competitive games like MOBAs.

 

Skyrim is an example where there's a lot of jank and it's loosely designed, but most of the time it's fine because it also doesn't demand that you git gud. But I've tried Skyrim on higher difficulties or simply settings where both you and the enemy deal a ton of damage, and you just die a lot of bullshit deaths because the game mechanics aren't designed to accommodate a high skill ceiling. Hit detection is imprecise, you get caught by weird terrain meshing, projectiles don't go where you expect.... it's more frustrating than engaging.

[FauxFurry]

1 hour ago, Buridan said:

I don't mind a challenge, but I think for it to feel fair the combat has to also be tight and responsive. The more finesse a game demands from a player, the more tightly-designed and jank-free it has to be. A good example is Dark Souls, or competitive games like MOBAs.

 

Skyrim is an example where there's a lot of jank and it's loosely designed, but most of the time it's fine because it also doesn't demand that you git gud. But I've tried Skyrim on higher difficulties or simply settings where both you and the enemy deal a ton of damage, and you just die a lot of bullshit deaths because the game mechanics aren't designed to accommodate a high skill ceiling. Hit detection is imprecise, you get caught by weird terrain meshing, projectiles don't go where you expect.... it's more frustrating than engaging.

The hardest difficulty setting of an action game is as much a test of its design as it is of the player.

 

That is precisely why I would place the Devil May Cry series (save for the second installment) and the Bayonetta series far ahead of God of War in how those two games necessitate a great deal of dexterity while providing the tools to make the best use of one's skills whereas God of War's God Mode forced players to rely on cheap tactics to make it through the enemies whose health pools are vastly increased while their flinch animation window were inversely reduced if not eliminated altogether, something which combined with the sometime sloppy feel of the controls made it more of a chore than a thrill.

The final battle escort mission was pretty much the breaking point for me as I had figured out how to compensate for the weaknesses in the game's combat systems to keep Kratos alive now had to be turned to protect two fragile NPCs through multiple waves of Kratos clones. There is no way that the final encounter with Ares could have been more frustrating to deal with than that encounter.

[landess]

I recently started a New Game + with Horizon Zero Dawn on a harder difficulty. Since it was pretty much a cake walk once I had acquired all the skills and armor/weapons, and there wasn't any 'mystery' left for just playing for the story, upping the difficulty was the only real reason to play again.

 

I was quite surprised how many HP were removed from taking a single hit from one of the Watchers during my opening hour of play. Not sure if I will enjoy the game as much this time around but at least I already have every tool and ability at my disposal.

 

Now it becomes a game of mind over matter. At least like other games (NG+) I've replayed/began to replay - No need to slog through every piece of side content unless I want to. Amazing how a game feels when released from the grinding aspects of crafting, leveling, and all the 'content' required to accomplish both while the only thing left to focus on is the narrative which isn't abandoned every minute to go off and do some other shit. I still find myself picking stuff up without thinking like some trained puppy.....

 

New Game plus = old school gaming IMO. Shorter, more focused, and usually harder. (I could start games on hard, but not a young masochist anymore)

[KoolHndLuke]

4 hours ago, landess said:

I could start games on hard, but not a young masochist anymore

It's a balance between challenge and frustration for me. Satisfaction of getting things right is directly proportional to the higher stakes and sometimes dying over and over is par for the course. I never strive for excellence in a game since it's kinda pointless to me anymore, so I'm a little more inclined to play at harder difficulties the first run. Proficient is good enough to ensure I played and saw most everything the game had to offer. Rinse and repeat with new game. 

[landess]

1 hour ago, KoolHndLuke said:

it's kinda pointless to me anymore

 

Yeah, I take pride in a job well done when other's will benefit from it. Gaming is basically slapping yourself on the back saying 'good job', and it doesn't pay very well either.

[KoolHndLuke]

54 minutes ago, landess said:

and it doesn't pay very well either

Wait.... You get paid to play games? Where the fuck do I sign up? 

 

Right now I'm enjoying RE2 with some cheat mods (playing with Leon's weapons for one) on the highest difficulty. Doing a sloppy 2cd run with Katherine W. as Claire. What keeps me going when I lose an hour or two because of the hidden Licker that kills me and erases progress? Walking around nude with lots of fire-power killing zombies is all the reward I need. I'm smelling the roses baby!