Setbody Reloaded

[Poontank]

Hi, dear! Great to see you again.

 

As to that size being 'natural', well... There are cases of such mega-balls in real life: Uncontrollable testicle growth due to a medical condition known as 'Scrotal Elephantiasis'. I guess the poor guys actually burdened with such a growth don't feel very sexy. But in the context of a game with so many other exaggerated aspects it's OK to get some kicks out of this. After all, in the game DMRA women for example don't suffer from back ache or stretch marks.

[ger4]

Ok, I re-shaped the penis a bit to be more like the original LAPF version and it got rid of most of the clipping that occurs with the standard animation pack. I hope it's useful.

 

BallsSample.nif

[ger4]

Just a thought, but could I make an option version of Lovers Joystick that uses the default LAPF penis? It would make animating a lot easier.

[movomo]

Go right ahead.

[movomo]

Setbody Reloaded Blockhead Edition 1.42a data fix

http://www.loverslab.com/topic/13908-gerra-and-movomos-setbody-reloaded-141/?p=491779

 

(download)

http://www.loverslab.com/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=149516

 

Fixes ZKEC lowerbodies. Sorry, folks. The archive contains all: normal lowerbodies, buttock BB lowerbodies, and AP lowerbodies.

[Supierce]

Setbody Reloaded Blockhead Edition 1.42a data fix

http://www.loverslab.com/topic/13908-gerra-and-movomos-setbody-reloaded-141/?p=491779

 

(download)

http://www.loverslab.com/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=149516

 

Fixes ZKEC lowerbodies. Sorry, folks. The archive contains all: normal lowerbodies, buttock BB lowerbodies, and AP lowerbodies.

As a ZKEC player, I thank you! Happy New Year to you, and to everyone here!

[ljacquard]

Is there anything I should know before moving these files into a BSA ?

 

Since most resources are all neatly packaged in specific subfolders, with little to no potential to collide with other mods, they look like the perfect candiates to be compressed.

[movomo]

In general I'd recommend against packing anything into bsa archive. Unless you're tyring to resolve a compatibility problem.

When they are loose, resources are accssed via native NTFS file system. It is more efficient than opening/seeking/optionally unpacking/reading/closing an archive file each time the game needs to load a new resource into memory. BSA only helps human eyes.

 

And after all you can't simply archive setbody meshes together anyway. None of the meshes except for one is actually wired into the plugin. They all are referenced only by scripts. For example, Tes4File will get you precisely nothing. Maybe you can try, see if blockhead is able to pull things out of bsa, I've never tried that.

[ljacquard]

When they are loose, resources are accssed via native NTFS file system. It is more efficient than opening/seeking/optionally unpacking/reading/closing an archive file each time the game needs to load a new resource into memory. BSA only helps human eyes.

 

This seems to be a common misconception, or I am not understanding the following as I should :

 

http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1354395-update-bsas-and-you

https://sites.google.com/site/oblivionpoinfo/intro/archiveinvalidation

http://tesalliance.org/forums/index.php?/topic/5996-sky-bsas-vs-loose-files

 

My game runs optimally with BSAs. I also suffer from much less fragmentation (some quest mods have over 30k files, way to go to shoot your SSD hdd down in no time if you switch mods in and out often), save on disk space, can install/uninstall in a breeze, etc.

 

There seem to be only advantages to me (on mid to high-level/modern hardware anyway). If the content is neatly organized as it should (meshes/<modname>/content, textures/<modname>/content, etc.), BSAs shouldn't conflict with each other either. Bethesda keeps using them (TES3, TES4, FNV, TES5), so why shouldn't we ?

 

EDIT : There's one thing you don't want to do with BSAs, and that is to put the same resource with the same path in two or more BSAs that have the same timestamp. This can lead the game to crash, because it doesn't know which one should be given priority, I suppose. However, this only happens if you aren't careful, pack your BSA like a "swine" (under folders that are commonly used by other mods), and use tools like Wrye Bash (since it resets the timestamps of ALL BSA files to the same date, which could be considered a bug by the way). Also, you don't want to compress BSAs with sound files. Otherwise, it's very safe, and only beneficial.

[fejeena]

The game runs smoother with loose Folders. The game must "unpack" the files in th bsa.

save disk space ? You should never use compression ! If you use bsa then uncompressed.

 

And your EDIT: how you check it you have meshes or textures already? Always open OblivionModmanager or WryeBash and check your bsa ? Check the Oblivion data Folder is easier.  If you install with Oblivion Modmanager or manually you get a message if you overwrite an existing file.

And if you create own Mods and you need some meshes , or you want to change/recolor textures, or....always unpack bsa's ?

[varenne]

 

Setbody Reloaded Blockhead Edition 1.42a data fix

http://www.loverslab.com/topic/13908-gerra-and-movomos-setbody-reloaded-141/?p=491779

 

(download)

http://www.loverslab.com/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=149516

 

Fixes ZKEC lowerbodies. Sorry, folks. The archive contains all: normal lowerbodies, buttock BB lowerbodies, and AP lowerbodies.

As a ZKEC player, I thank you! Happy New Year to you, and to everyone here!

 

 

Since I was previously using SetBody_Reloaded_Blockhead_0_39_1_Data to create all of my body templates for use with Gerra6's tools, I guess I should now upgrade and rebuild all of my templates.

[ljacquard]

The game runs smoother with loose Folders. The game must "unpack" the files in th bsa.

save disk space ? You should never use compression ! If you use bsa then uncompressed.

 

And your EDIT: how you check it you have meshes or textures already? Always open OblivionModmanager or WryeBash and check your bsa ? Check the Oblivion data Folder is easier.  If you install with Oblivion Modmanager or manually you get a message if you overwrite an existing file.

And if you create own Mods and you need some meshes , or you want to change/recolor textures, or....always unpack bsa's ?

 

Running smoother with loose files is not something I experience.

 

The game unpacks whatever is found in the BSA and does so in memory (RAM) with BSAs, which is faster on modern hardware than doing the same on disk (with much slower R/W access), multipled by number of files (check the threads I've linked, you'll get more information). Then you have fragmentation issues, which may or may not be signficant to you (SSD or not).

 

This is also what I experience on my machine, with about 30 or so large mod resources turned into BSAs (and more to come) :

 

- <Snu's dungeons>

- <Losing my religion>

- <Kvatch rebuilt>

- <COBL>

- <Better dungeons>

- <Vilja>

- <Fergus>

- <All Natural>

- <Sounds of Cyrodiil>

- <ORN>

 

not to mention custom races, like <Vampire reloaded>, weapon mods, etc, and even <Lovers Bitch Gone Wild> 

 

Almost all the big and popular mods use BSAs, like <Better Cities>.

 

I use compression for meshes (probably not recommended if animations are used, but it seems to work for me so far, going to experience with LAPF turned into a BSA too) and textures (Bethesda did compress their <Oblivion - textures.bsa>), no compression for sounds and voices.

 

 

And your EDIT: how you check it you have meshes or textures already? Always open OblivionModmanager or WryeBash and check your bsa ? Check the Oblivion data Folder is easier.  If you install with Oblivion Modmanager or manually you get a message if you overwrite an existing file.

And if you create own Mods and you need some meshes , or you want to change/recolor textures, or....always unpack bsa's ?

 

I use this tool, created by shadeMe :

 

http://www.nexusmods.com/oblivion/mods/29342

 

slightly tweaked, since rewritten in VBS for my own purposes.

 

I keep the content of BSA in text files, and leave the tool to check for me. No mistake possible that way.

 

If I want to tweak anything, I just overwrite whatever is found in the BSA with loose files.

 

BSA = all the advantages, none of the inconveniences, if you know how to use them that is (no point in making OCOv2 a BSA, for example).

[movomo]

Awesome information and fascinating discussion. That's very intersting, but I can't entirely agree with that for the moment. I'm not too decisive on this topic, but this problem depends on what the situation is. How frequently will the data be processed once read, how will they be decompressed, and so on.

 

One thing that those guys forgot to mention is about disk cache. Even older HDDs have cache space, SSDs have larger cache space, some SSDs reserve even larger space for caching data, and it is one of what the firmware does.

 

The overall speed may depend on various factors, but in general (assuming zlib or lz4), reading by in-memory decompression is likely faster than uncompressed files on the disk. However, reading from the disk cache is likely several times faster than using in-memory decompression. This happens when the game requires some specific data multiple times. load resource - memory purged - reappears for example. Resources are frequently purged and reloaded. (Ever wondered why Oblivion starts faster when you run it the second time after turning your PC on?)

 

I am sure that Microsoft guys would gladly compress their huge system folder with zlib in the next version of Windows if they figure compressing them would yield such advantageous result. But that's a bit unlikely. And one of the reasons that many games ship the resources in their own archive type is to protect their assets from rippers.

 

Only actual testing will reveal the truth - prefarably in-game testing, that is. One small test I had done with a quick python script says uncompress wins (it's a very simple one that reads (but not writes) about 400MB of random nif/dds files but not much else).

[Symon]

A machine with enough memory to read ALL your BSAs and keep them in memory (Oblivion-Textures-compressed is over 1.1 Gb. Compressed = overhead to access it.) can also keep all the loose assets it needs in memory too. NTFS finds a loose file in memory faster than a monolithic file that the game then has to offset along

 

Honestly, this is a myth. Beth use BSAs because it makes for easier installations and consistent installs that are easier to support, not for performance.

Several people have found unpacking Beth BSAs leads to improved performance including me. Have you unpacked yours, de-fragmented and found your performance declined? This would be a test though at odds with others experiences.

 

The fact is ljacquard that everytime I download a 'big popular mod' with BSAs I unpack and optimize the Nifs and textures. It is very rare to find a clean BSA!!!! I loathe BSAs with a passion and find they have no advantages but many disadvantages.

 

Forcing oversize textures and Nifs full of extraneous nodes and a structure with thumbs.db files on me is certainly not a performance enhancement.

[fejeena]

Yes that's another reason why I hate Mods with bsa or in OMod Format. I always check whats inside a Mod and clean esp, meshes and reduce oversized textures.

Install Mods without checking is the best way to crash your game.

 

If People want bsa or OMods they can create their own.

[ljacquard]

It seems to me that this is turning into an emotional and opiniated argument, instead of a constructive discussion. I'd rather have tried to keep it factual, come up with motivated feedback/user-experiences, serious sources (links to posts of experienced modders, like I did), and technical considerations like Movomo did.

I think you both (Fejeena and Symon) have strong misconceptions about how BSA work (you are not the only ones), what they can do, why Bethesda (no, they won't keep stuff across all their games and for all these years just for shits and giggles) and every major and well-designed mod for Oblivion uses them. Like any other archives, BSA in themselves are not "responsible" for whatever is stored in them. They can encourage to good practices instead, if care is taken to educate people (players and modders alike).

 

In that regard, it would have been interesting to complete our collective knowledge about them, to better use them for our own modding projects or modded games. However, I have no interest in confronting (and potentially angering?) people that have contributed more positively and effectively to the LL community with their talents than I have so far to achieve that. I feel I can say this objectively. I don't mind "rustling some feathers" sometimes, but I also am attached to LL. It's just not the place to have this discussion I guess.

I would like to encourage you both, and everyone else here, to eventually revise or at least make their own mind about BSAs, instead of following a general "hear-say" or practices, which as far as I can judge from the above are more a question of personal preferences and prejudices. I can only provide positive feedback since I switched to BSAs, and I hope that it will work equally fine for you.

[movomo]

Alright, enough about BSA. Do not make BSA for setbody blockhead (but setbody non-blockhead (1.21 or lower) should be ok with it).

Let me make a new thread about this. Let setbody discussion continue.

 

*Edit*

go here and leave this thread in peace.

https://www.loverslab.com/topic/42153-bsa-versus-loose-files-small-test/

[avebrave]

Then I start with posting on topic again, or not, we'll see.

How about a Autosetbody Clothing/Armor Replacer, like the Player Clothing Replacer but also for NPCs?

What I mean with it is a plugin that check what body the NPC got, and then equip the right nif.

I know this will be a huge work to create every vanilla armor/cloth for all bodys we got, much more then the BreakArmor for Vanilla Armors, but we have allready many replacer for the 'standart' bodys like DMRA, TGND, HGEC (several Cups).

And why should I have to decide which one I use, when I can have them ALL?

 

I just want to know if there is planed something like this.

 

Cheers.

[movomo]

That is a good idea Ave. But actually, that gives me a bad feeling. as it has been asked several times before and I always refused.

 

Technically it shouldn't be too hard, scripting-wise. And we have more than abundant armors. The problem I don't want to face is resolving conflict with Break Armor and similar stuff. I've never been very keen on developing this plugin(and giving up Break Armor from my list).

 

There are some reserved, unfinished scripts in setbody to potentially support such kind of plugin. Well I'd be happy to complete them if anyone is willing.

 

By the way, Elalquimista was once very eager about getting "setbody extended" to work. What it does is almost exactly what you've just said. Perhaps he's gotten somewhere by now?

[ger4]

That is a good idea Ave. But actually, that gives me a bad feeling. as it has been asked several times before and I always refused.

 

Technically it shouldn't be too hard, scripting-wise. And we have more than abundant armors. The problem I don't want to face is resolving conflict with Break Armor and similar stuff. I've never been very keen on developing this plugin(and giving up Break Armor from my list).

 

There are some reserved, unfinished scripts in setbody to potentially support such kind of plugin. Well I'd be happy to complete them if anyone is willing.

 

By the way, Elalquimista was once very eager about getting "setbody extended" to work. What it does is almost exactly what you've just said. Perhaps he's gotten somewhere by now?

Well, I'm no good at scripting, but I'm not too bad with blender if you would need some modelling work doing to create a "setclothing/armor" plugin.

[Puuk]

I think implementing multiple armor meshes based on chest size is indeed possible. I've been trying to strip down this mod to only include autosetbody female HGEC stuff to simplify the study, but the slowing factor is my inexperience in Oblivion modding.

 

But shouldn't this even affect BA that much? Most of time the player will anyway use a chest size that supports his/her choice of armor, but does any NPC ever get enough damage to reach the mesh change treshold?

[movomo]

Good point, and glad to see people are willing to put some work into it.

 

As you know, BA events are triggered by certain amount of armor damage if armor, or health+fatigue damage if clothing. I can't tell that it happens very frequently on npcs, but it does happen time to time. For example,

1. when the player fights bandits.

2. player's companions.

And if they happen, that's pretty much a disaster. I expect CTD when it's worst. Before Tamagosetbody Reboot, I saw CTD quite often while using that mod with BA.

 

If you don't care about BA or won't use mesh swap, this shouldn't be a big problem. You only have to care about your own and I'd recommend this way.

But if you start to care about others... then it's complicated. I've thought about how could they play along.

1. Make some kind of "master" plugin (but it doesn't need to be actually master, just virtual) that governs all the mesh-swap events. Probably it should organize those events by certain priority. Need some solid logic here.

2. Rewrite BA, Tamagosetbody, etc, so that they leave mesh swap work to their mutual master plugin. Child plugins might have to decide who/what/when to swap.

[avebrave]

...

Technically it shouldn't be too hard, scripting-wise. And we have more than abundant armors. The problem I don't want to face is resolving conflict with Break Armor and similar stuff. I've never been very keen on developing this plugin(and giving up Break Armor from my list).

...

 

So we need a BA autosetbody Replacer? With Tomagosetbody of course. Hopfully we finish it before bethesda release Tes VI: Elsweyr 

 

Good point, and glad to see people are willing to put some work into it.

...

 

That was the reason why I asked, I also want to do some more replacing stuff, curentlly I do the HFB H-Cup, but it is so damn boring work to add them all into an esp if I want to see them ingame. I would try to script it my self, but reading more then 10 programm lines made my brain blow. But if anyone is willing to do the script work, then I will support this project with missing meshes.

 

Other point: I done some while ago this pregnant HFB E body, maybe it can be used for setbody.

PregnantHFBE.7z

 

Cheers.

[movomo]

Most appreciated sir. I'll add them in the next update.

[Puuk]

Slowly digging to the code... It is a pain as most of the reference pages in CS wiki seems to be taken down.

 

Tamagosetbody seems to already have a solution for switching meshes, thanks a lot!. But that amount of scripts... urgh.

 

Is there any specific reason why every body part is hard coded in order to make them work? My approach would be something like this:

 

1. Ini defines which bodysets are being loaded (HGEC, DMRA, etc.)

2. Search through representing folders for different bodyparts

3. If bodypart is found (e.g. HGEC upperbody E), add that to list

 

Some dynamicity is required if this level of immersion is wanted to be reached. Let's say we have one type of upperbody. It has six different chest sizes. Therefore we want six sizes of every (at least 12) armors in the game. Add 4 damage stages for BA (+1 for original), and we have... 6*12*5 = 360 different meshes! And this is not even counting a lower body, other body types nor any cloth items. Thank God we have those converters out there, but I really need to be able to ditch out that DMRA set I don't like and choose which ones I download, or the file size will be ludicrous.

 

Sounds crazy, but when done right it should be possible. That dynamicity just is really needed, so we can still additotally see armors that don't have BA, or multiple sizes, or neither.