Mortal Weapons & Armors

[Monoman1]

On 9/10/2019 at 9:57 AM, donttouchmethere said:

You and your scary stories ?

Actually just to clear this up. An armor not having a ground nif shouldnt crash. It'll just be invisible and irretrievable if dropped. The only time it can potentially crash is when it has a bad ground nif. It looks like armor modders often don't test their ground nifs. 

22 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Soooo... I'll post this in the right forum  

 

Regarding the issue with MWA seeming to destroy my armor and weapons with incredible efficiency, I checked the degradation rates I have set in my MCM.

 

According to the MCM, with my current settings, it should take 50 normal hits to do a single point of damage to armor, and 200 to damage a weapon.

 

What I actually see, and I tested this on a dagger with 5 remaining durability...

 

Each strike I make with the dagger did around 2 points of durability damage, and the dagger broke after three strikes.

These were not power attacks, just ordinary ones.

 

Armor was being destroyed at a similar rate, taking multiple points of durability per hit - so a 23 durability helmet was taking maybe eight hits before breaking or something like that.

 

 

This doesn't match with what is in the MCM at all.

I'm also getting the damage over time, though that isn't anywhere near as excessively amplified.

I don't have Requiem, and MWA knows this.

 

I turned everything down to absolute minimum damage, and also turned off the multiple hits feature (which was set to 3, I think) so each hit against armor is really only one hit.

I also turned down power attacks so they only do x5 normal.

 

I meant to post this last night, but didn't have time, so my memory may be fuzzy about some exact numbers, but the strikes I made with the dagger and its remaining durability before I made them are exact.

I think there might be some confusion here between durability and tempering degradation. They're two different things. 

 

Weapons that aren't tempered will always degrade by one point of durability for a normal attack and two for a power attack. I can't explain why your dagger is degrading two points of durability. I did a quick test last night (with requiem) and one point was taken each time. 

 

Blocking with weapons is more complex. Blocking a warhammer with a dagger will do much more damage to the dagger. 

 

Armor has the same issue. Blunt weapons do more damage to heavy armor, blades do more damage to light armor/clothing. 

 

Maybe try with complex degradation off for a while and see how it feels. 

 

I'll straight up admit that I haven't played vanilla skyrim for YEARS since installing requiem so I am very much eye balling vanilla settings. But that's what mcm settings are for. If you have suggestions for kinder vanilla settings then I'm of course open to them. 

[donttouchmethere]

52 minutes ago, Monoman1 said:

Actually just to clear this up. An armor not having a ground nif shouldnt crash. It'll just be invisible and irretrievable if dropped. The only time it can potentially crash is when it has a bad ground nif. It looks like armor modders often don't test their ground nifs.

But it sounded like an easy to believe explanation : (

 

CTD happened during manufacturing the custom armor head piece at the forge.

Never tried that with that armor, because... additem lol

You forced me to build it to see if I can evade MWA like that ?

So the armor piece never fell to the ground, unless after building the armor ground model gets loaded during transfer to inventory

Is on the "test me" list now

[Lupine00]

51 minutes ago, Monoman1 said:

Weapons that aren't tempered will always degrade by one point of durability for a normal attack and two for a power attack. I can't explain why your dagger is degrading two points of durability. I did a quick test last night (with requiem) and one point was taken each time. 

You're telling me that you designed a typical dagger to last for only twenty or so swings?

 

Or ten, if they're power attacks?

 

 

That seems a bit ... tedious ... to need more than one dagger per fight. Dagger attacks are quick and low damage, so you make a lot, but even for a 2H, it's a bit ... tiresome.

 

As I can't temper magic weapons or armor (or seem to find anybody who will repair them, they are always refused/given back) that makes magic weapons the worst thing in the game, and I haven't used one since day two of installing MWA... Except the Dollmaker, which I set immune to degradation - and I don't use that, my follower does.

 

 

I don't really understand what you mean by "that's what MCM settings are for", when you suggest that the settings don't mean what they say they mean...

I didn't notice anything obvious in the MCM to suggest that the degrade stats were only for tempered weapons. I have *never* had a tempered weapon.

 

As I said before, smiths won't temper magic weapons for me, and I couldn't see the point in tempering a weapon that only lasts a few minutes ...

Of course, if I'd know tempering them actually made them last a hundred times as long or something, I'd have done it.

 

 

I've turned off complex degradation already, as part of my attempts to nerf degradation down to a usable/tolerable level, but it was on when I did the dagger test.

 

 

Mostly, my armor is hit by spells, as my character is made of paper, and usually wears cloth, and occasionally light armor (but as the latter breaks so fast, I sort of gave up on trying to have a working set, whereas sets of clothes only weight 1 each).  I also turned off spell multiplier effects as much as I could.

 

I would have liked to set spell multipliers less than 1, but that's not an option. But at this point, I'm not sure what you would have designed that to mean. I'm still trying to work out what you intended when you set the MCM up so you could configure a tiny scalar for "damage" to weapons, and provide a tip on how many attacks that results in, but then it doesn't mean that at all. Perhaps there was some incredibly informative tooltip that would have illuminated all this to me, but I'm quite used to tooltips being wrong, or missing, or using random jargon, so forgive me for misreading some term for damage that actually meant tempering damage, or ignoring the word tempering ... as that would have meant I had no way to configure damage to untempered weapons - which as I see it, are the norm.

[Monoman1]

@donttouchmethere

Everything in the MWA world must be dropped to get a reference - to get set up by the mod. Normally it happens so fast you can't see it. 

 

@Lupine00

theres a page in the mcm where you can set  base (untempered) durability settings to. 

 

2 hits in requiem is enough to kill most standard bandits in requiem. Just so you see where I'm coming from. 

 

Also theres no tempering at all in mwa. The dialogs a placeholder. But yea it needs to be done. Just don't have the time. 

[donttouchmethere]

55 minutes ago, Monoman1 said:

Everything in the MWA world must be dropped to get a reference - to get set up by the mod. Normally it happens so fast you can't see it. 

Good to know!

(arghs, I have a lot of borked custom armors, that will get interesting^^)

 

[Lupine00]

1 hour ago, Monoman1 said:

theres a page in the mcm where you can set  base (untempered) durability settings to. 

Sorry, that's confused me more, because in the previous post, you told me that the settings I used in the MCM to set durability settings weren't what I thought, and they were for tempered weapons.

 

Now you say there's no support for tempered weapons and those settings were for untempered weapons, exactly as I expected all along.

 

At this point, it feels like you're just messing with me.

[Monoman1]

1 hour ago, Lupine00 said:

Sorry, that's confused me more, because in the previous post, you told me that the settings I used in the MCM to set durability settings weren't what I thought, and they were for tempered weapons.

 

Now you say there's no support for tempered weapons and those settings were for untempered weapons, exactly as I expected all along.

 

At this point, it feels like you're just messing with me.

No I meant the blacksmiths wont temper things for you - The dialogues not done yet. 

 

But there are separate setting for

A) how much base durability weapon/armor categories have (which is important for untempered items which is what you seem to be talking about most) and 

B) how much hits degrade armors/weapons when they are tempered - which is the settings page with the x hits per level. But since you've said you don't temper items then this page doesn't apply

 

Btw, I try my best with the tool tips. So for my mods at least they are worth a read. 

 

Tempering protects durability and durability protects the item from being destroyed. This places more importantance on the smithing skill. 

[Corsayr]

3 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Of course, if I'd know tempering them actually made them last a hundred times as long or something, I'd have done it.

You should always temper it will make your weapons last 100 times longer. ?

[Lupine00]

20 hours ago, Monoman1 said:

No I meant the blacksmiths wont temper things for you - The dialogues not done yet. 

I can't have tempers. My character isn't allowed to use any of the smithing tools.

20 hours ago, Monoman1 said:

But there are separate setting for

A) how much base durability weapon/armor categories have (which is important for untempered items which is what you seem to be talking about most) and 

B) how much hits degrade armors/weapons when they are tempered - which is the settings page with the x hits per level. But since you've said you don't temper items then this page doesn't apply

 

So, if I want my (untempered) items to degrade slower, I can't adjust the degrade rate, I have to make them have more durability instead?

 

And the sliders for degrade rate only apply to tempering?

 

 

I have to say, that's not only a bit awkward, it's not awfully unintuitive, and any explanation of it is ... certainly capable of being missed.

 

I wouldn't even have looked for an explanation of details like this, as I would never have expected it to be easier to customise temper decay than the basic degradation rate. Let me rephrase that - I didn't expect it to work like this and would have needed giant warning red writing to alert me to something so unexpected.

[Corsayr]

You do know that in real life an untempered weapon is basically garbage and would break like right away if used in a combat scenario? 

 

So I don't agree that this system isn't intuitive.

 

Now Skyrims system in general is a bit out of kilter so to speak. What it calls tempering really "acts" more like sharpening. In that scenario you are correct not sharpening wouldn't make a weapon less durable. But there isn't a single degradation mod out there that doesn't use tempering to increase longevity, and in everyone I have used an untempered weapon won't last very long. Usually breaking within a fight or two.

 

 

[WhatRules]

Is there a way to protect boots and gloves from being torn when raped? They don't really need to rip apart everything on your body, just your body armor.

[Monoman1]

17 minutes ago, saltshade said:

Is there a way to protect boots and gloves from being torn when raped? They don't really need to rip apart everything on your body, just your body armor.

Nope. I think you can turn it off/down though if you want. 

8 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

I can't have tempers. My character isn't allowed to use any of the smithing tools.

Well that's just cruel

What mod does that?

8 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

So, if I want my (untempered) items to degrade slower, I can't adjust the degrade rate, I have to make them have more durability instead?

 

And the sliders for degrade rate only apply to tempering?

Correct. 

I find it intuitive. But then I would, wouldn't I. 

I cant remember why I went that way. I guess floating point durability display would have looked messy. 

The older versions of MWA didn't have durability but tempered your 'untempered' weapons up to just before the first temper level. But there was some issues around it. + it influenced the damage done by weapons. 

 

8 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

The top eight bits of any FormID are the exact same thing as the two hex digits that identify the mod ID when you look at the form ID.

 

e.g.

Let us imagine that the loaded instance of DCL has mod ID 147 (decimal) 0x93 hex. Which you discovered from the SKSE function to check that the mod is loaded in the first place.

The value that function returns isn't just junk (.e.g. it's not just 255 means not loaded), it's the mod's load position, which is used for the top eight bits of all its form IDs to make them unique to that mod.

 

That means that if you look at a form ID such as  0x91000022 you know right away it's not from DCL.

And if you look at a form ID such as 0x93000031 you know it IS from DCL.

 

And you can test this exact thing by masking the form ID and comparing it against the Mod ID.

 

e.g. logically ...

 

Int modID = Game.GetModByName("SomeMod.esp")

Int formID = formOfInterest.GetFormID()

 

If Math.LeftShift(modID, 24) == Math.LogicalAnd(0xFF000000, formID)

    ... do something like always make the items for females only ...

EndIf

 

I didn't use Math.RightShift() on the form ID because it's not obvious to a reader of the code whether that function is a signed or unsigned shift.

I believe it's signed, but by avoiding the question, I (and the reader) don't need to care. If it was signed, I'd need a long constant like 0x00FFFFFF anway, so no gain from doing it. If you don't get why there could be a gain, don't worry, not your problem.

 

Does that explain it?

I'll quote you here on this as I think this was in relation to MWA. 

Yes. Thank you that makes more sense now. 

 

It's interesting but I'm not sure it's suitable for MWA-> DCL. 

I don't see the advantage of this method over

.HasKeyword(SexlabNoStrip) for locking devious devices -> ignore them &

.HasKeyword(dcur_kw_dollmaker_rubber) for non-locking devious armor - Fit to female only.  

 

Unless I'm missing something it seems keywords would be faster. And MWA needs fast due to the number of objects processed. 

 

[Corsayr]

28 minutes ago, saltshade said:

Is there a way to protect boots and gloves from being torn when raped? They don't really need to rip apart everything on your body, just your body armor.

Immersion wise they definitely would remove those (especially if armor not just clothing) 

 

You can do a lot of damage hitting or kicking someone with armored boots and gloves.

[Monoman1]

36 minutes ago, Corsayr said:

Immersion wise they definitely would remove those (especially if armor not just clothing) 

 

You can do a lot of damage hitting or kicking someone with armored boots and gloves.

True. I think it more just shows that rape is not something that is gentle or considerate. 

"Oh just wait until I take off my gucci heels"

 

(I've no idea if gucci make heels btw)

[Corsayr]

1 hour ago, Monoman1 said:

(I've no idea if gucci make heels btw)

You better believe a company with brand name recognition like Gucci is selling every freakin thing they can. So yes, they have shoes women's and Men's*. If the twins that play'd the little girl in Full house have a line of shoes, Gucci has one. ?

 

 

 

*I don't think they have high heels for men...

[Lupine00]

10 hours ago, Monoman1 said:

What mod does that?

SLD does it actually. People often misapprehend its powers to cripple and annoy the poor PC.

 

I think SLS could/should, but not sure if it does TBH, as I don't try to use those tools, knowing what will happen.

 

 

10 hours ago, Monoman1 said:

I cant remember why I went that way. I guess floating point durability display would have looked messy. 

The older versions of MWA didn't have durability but tempered your 'untempered' weapons up to just before the first temper level. But there was some issues around it. + it influenced the damage done by weapons. 

I think that sounds like the explanation of why you went that way right there...

 

The path to get there makes a plausible story. What finally evolved is a bit confusing though.

 

Here's what I'd do - I'd have floating point durability, but show only an integer value. No mess, easy configuration and scaling.

 

 

Adjusting the "durability range" is quite burdensome, as it takes a while to reset, and doesn't update the items you're carrying without creating other issues.

Also, it doesn't go high enough. 100 is not enough.

 

For a 2H weapon that makes few swings, it's kind of tolerable, but for anything else, it's still often a case of being unable to finish a fight with a single weapon.

 

I took on a frost troll with a "Wicked Dagger" that had its FULL health of 64 (which is special somehow) and by the time the troll was down, I'd broken the dagger and resorted to a bow, which broke too, and then spells.

 

Two full-health weapons not enough to kill a troll, and that with boosted weapon health.

 

 

When you pick up dropped items, even with a max of 50 (or 100) they still have miserable health values like 5, or 7 - almost never over 10% health.

This equates to weapons that are worth so few swings you can't really fight with them. Meanwhile the NPCs have no such problem.

 

So, if you're scavenging for weapons, you're unlikely to get anything that will last a whole fight.

And that's my experience since I kicked up weapon durability max to 100 (as high as it goes).

Before that, weapons broke so fast that armed combat was simply impossible.

 

 

Either:

• durabilities need to be able to be set higher, or
• there needs to be floating point damage with configurable fractional damage per hit,
• or a configurable "chance" of taking damage vs none, for each swing.

 

Possibly, situations where you swing and do less than some threshold of damage shouldn't impact durability either - that's the issue with the Wicked Dagger - you're swinging like crazy and doing a tiny amount of damage unless you have high 1H skill - and mine was a mere 35 or so - but that's still way above starting skill, especially with disparity.

 

 

Now, I'm sure some people love their weapons breaking like they are stage versions made out of plaster, but it's not everyone's taste.

MWA would be achieving its avowed goals much better if you could practically enable weapon durability and still have a melee based character ... without using Requiem.

 

More configuration capability here would be a huge bonus.

 

 

And another configuration wish... Let me enable "magic weapons exempt" via a single tickbox...

And/or, let me enable "magic weapons can be repaired", similarly via a tickbox...

If I can't repair them (and I can't, smith won't take them) then at least make it so I don't have to click through the next equip is immortal process - just scrolling down my mod list to MWA takes a while (getting to the SLS mark as escort option takes even longer though - and my game has a lot of possible escorts to mark).

 

Currently, MWA makes a particular decision about how to handle magic items. It suits some people but definitely not others.

Good magic items are hard to come by, making them impossible to repair is a step too far for me.

Some are legendary items that have survived many owners. It's hard to figure why they break after I swing them a couple of times.

Currently, I have the option to exempt them altogether. It's a bit too powerful a cop-out for regular magic gear.

 

Currently, most of my gear is marked unbreakable, because it's the only way to get any reasonable amount of use out of it at all.

But it leaves me wondering what I got out of MWA. I guess it's rendered almost anything I pick up the equivalent of a bag of dried leaves.

[Monoman1]

2 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

SLD does it actually

Cool. What's the reason though? 

Someone suggested having to pay to use crafting equipment in sls which might be interesting. But an outright ban seems very harsh. Tempering is pretty important for mwa. 

 

As for the rest of your post. What I will do is increase the range of the durability slider. And add sliders for min/max durabilitiws to be found in the world. That plus the planned chance to find a tempered weapon/armor slider should make you a little happier. 

 

 

And I'll see about changing the immunity option from the rather awkward equip method, to something like the drop down box in sls. 

 

[Lupine00]

2 hours ago, Monoman1 said:

Someone suggested having to pay to use crafting equipment in sls which might be interesting. But an outright ban seems very harsh. Tempering is pretty important for mwa. 

It was only a minor inconvenience until this came up in MWA.

 

 

2 hours ago, Monoman1 said:

What I will do is increase the range of the durability slider. And add sliders for min/max durabilitiws to be found in the world. That plus the planned chance to find a tempered weapon/armor slider should make you a little happier.

Knowing what I know now, that would probably do the job.

 

For loot items you could put durabilities on a population curve with a normal distribution, and let the player use a slider to pick the center point.

 

Also, spotting that certain mods are female oriented and giving appropriately gendered items would be nice.

Sometimes I get something like a Blade "Sneaking Suit" sized to fit M, but unless you are Borat, that item does not look like it would suit a man.

[Corsayr]

50 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

It was only a minor inconvenience until this came up in MWA.

 

So it was only a minor inconvenience until equipment longevity and repair became a thing. ?

 

 

16 hours ago, Monoman1 said:

The older versions of MWA didn't have durability but tempered your 'untempered' weapons up to just before the first temper level. But there was some issues around it. + it influenced the damage done by weapons. 

is it possible any of that is still in the code? it might explain my mysterious items getting stronger for no reason issue...

 

 

3 hours ago, Monoman1 said:

Someone suggested having to pay to use crafting equipment in sls which might be interesting.

You know what might be immersive AND cost money? If you were required to have tools to use a crafting table, and them made tools require a license! 

 

3 hours ago, Monoman1 said:

What I will do is increase the range of the durability slider. And add sliders for min/max durabilitiws to be found in the world.

This would actually be very cool, as I was talking through the Durability VS sharpening thing in Skyrim's engine I was kind of thinking to some degree Lupine00's idea of more durability would work better for weapons. Have the Tempering (sharpening) settings wear off quickly (like they do in real life) by setting those to degrade very fast, and have weapons use a larger durability pool. 

 

That way Tempering would be more like sharpening and it would work to increase the damage output, but the actual weapon longevity would be primarily a factor of durability which would require a blacksmith to repair. 

[Monoman1]

5 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

For loot items you could put durabilities on a population curve with a normal distribution, and let the player use a slider to pick the center point

I might have to pick your brain about this later. Like I've said before. Math is not my strong point. It's been years since I've used math in any meaningful way. I can usually do it but I'd have to sit down with a pen and paper (old school) to suss it out. 

 

4 hours ago, Corsayr said:

is it possible any of that is still in the code? it might explain my mysterious items getting stronger for no reason issue...

I don't believe so. I've not seen this strengthening for a few versions now. Jealco over in the milk addict thread has seen it. Do you use milk addict maybe? Like I've said somewhere else, I normally set mme progression to snail pace and never get very far before I need to restart my game so that could explain why I've never seen it. 

[Corsayr]

1 minute ago, Monoman1 said:

I don't believe so. I've not seen this strengthening for a few versions now. Jealco over in the milk addict thread has seen it. Do you use milk addict maybe? Like I've said somewhere else, I normally set mme progression to snail pace and never get very far before I need to restart my game so that could explain why I've never seen it

 

 

Okay so here it is in action, I just crafted this set of armor and tempered it to fine. I looked at it in inventory and as I clicked each part it went from fine to superior. No CGI you can see the clock int he lower right and the carry weight doesn't change so no ingots were harmed in the improving of these armor pieces. ?

Spoiler

 

[Monoman1]

1 hour ago, Corsayr said:

 

 

Okay so here it is in action, I just crafted this set of armor and tempered it to fine. I looked at it in inventory and as I clicked each part it went from fine to superior. No CGI you can see the clock int he lower right and the carry weight doesn't change so no ingots were harmed in the improving of these armor pieces. ?

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Hmm might only happen in non requiem mode. But your the only one reporting it. (Shes a witch!)

Spoiler

 

[Monoman1]

4 hours ago, Corsayr said:

 

 

Okay so here it is in action, I just crafted this set of armor and tempered it to fine. I looked at it in inventory and as I clicked each part it went from fine to superior. No CGI you can see the clock int he lower right and the carry weight doesn't change so no ingots were harmed in the improving of these armor pieces. ?

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Can not seem to recreate this on my side (without requiem). 

Created a set of hide and iron armor. Tempered them to fine. Equipped them and they stayed the same... You don't have anything else that might mess with tempering? Could you try recreating it with a minimal load order + new game and see what happens. 

 

The good news is I think I tracked down the object duplication bug. Turns out it's not a duplicate but something you previously picked up and subsequently dropped. Stalker objects if you will. 

[Corsayr]

3 hours ago, Monoman1 said:

minimal load order

 

 

 

 

Spoiler

 

But every mod in my load order is needed! ?

 

 

I'll see what I can do, it won't be easy I have a lot of additional dependencies that arise from a bad habit of making amateurish adjustments to mods in TES5Edit. One thing that might be a culprit, I have adjusted tempering settings in skytweak*... you think that might be a contributor? Do you use skytweak?

 

*I did it to make get multiple degrees of legendary a near impossibility, basically the level of tempering in my game happens slower in relation to smithing skill and perks. 

[Corsayr]

3 hours ago, Monoman1 said:

The good news is I think I tracked down the object duplication bug. Turns out it's not a duplicate but something you previously picked up and subsequently dropped. Stalker objects if you will. 

ooops I guess I wasn't describing the problem very well. I knew that was what was happening already. The "duplicates" were just old versions of the same item that I had lost through some other problem. ?