Devious Devices Framework Development/Beta

[Zaflis]

On 9/15/2022 at 11:23 PM, audhol said:

 

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The rings look just the same to me, especially when ingame they are not so significantly zoomed in. I value performance very highly in games. Having longer loading times because of large model or texture files is just annoying, even more so if it makes game more vulnerable to CTD. But maybe you can run that HD version through some low-poly function and it would be better than the original? Lots of times the so called HD models make polygons as tiny as the... texels i guess you call them, pixels seen from textures. That's probably still the case with catsuit models at the breast area. Very tiny triangles. I guess one place to test models loading speed was checking their preview in the player inventory?

 

But catsuit is just one thing, i don't even know how much room for optimization there would be in all the other DD's NIFs, or DCL's. As far as i'm aware they were just prioritized to get working in the first place.

[naaitsab]

2 hours ago, Zaflis said:

But catsuit is just one thing, i don't even know how much room for optimization there would be in all the other DD's NIFs, or DCL's. As far as i'm aware they were just prioritized to get working in the first place.

Most items come from a time that all modification was done manually on a limited amount of points (Bodyslide) and could be fixed if some clipping/weirdness occurred. Currently it's possible to make changes on the fly ingame without those fixes with a lot more points/bones to choose from. So issues will arise sooner.

"Just get them working" personally is a bit downplaying the effort the original designers put in it. It was another time and then it was sufficient. Well it still is bar some specific wishes/usecases we currently have.

 

But optimizing things is never negative if it serves a valid goal  As long as it does not results in getting massive meshes that hobble the engine because of some obscure "Cup ZZ sloot mod" usage. Not everyone runs a $1750+ Hi-End 1 year old PC and it's still a Bethesda game we are modding for, so not exactly crashproof to say it mildly 

[Roggvir]

Optimizing things is an unwritten rule.
But visuals are important too, and when you do things smart, you can get better looking things for no noticeable performance impact.

 

Take into consideration what things are we talking about - things like gags, which are rarely seen in game in larger numbers.

I could be wrong, but i consider my current setup to be probably the worst one anybody here has - a gfx 980 4GB, 3.9GHz i-7 CPU, and 16 GB RAM - and i still run a pretty reasonably modded game (though i usually stick to 2K textures, except for mammoths, giants, sabrecats, etc., which look significantly better with 4K and they are not many) with nearly constant 60 FPS (if you need 144, because reasons, then you probably have the HW for that, right?), and even if i double the polys on the gags, it won't make any performance difference in my game, until i spawn about 150 of them on a pile next to me, at which point my FPS counter drops to 55.
But guess what? a funny thing - if i spawn 150 of the original lowpoly gags, my FPS still drops to 55!

Of course, things add up, and that is why we optimize things.
That is why we do not increase polygons blindly everywhere, but ONLY in parts of the mesh where it makes a difference - be it the big rings, or the straps in places where they are most likely to bend and thus NEED the polys to create the bend (all described in my previous posts).

And i do not believe that you wouldn't notice the visual difference, unless you are somehow visually impaired, you will notice.
But you are still missing my main point - i do not want to add polygons just to make the things look more smoother, but mainly to prevent CLIPPING.

But i understand your worries - after all, why do you think i am not using 3BA body, but still stick to CBBE SMP 3BBB?
Well, because the 3BA has 11102 more triangles, and i haven't got to the point where i would appreciate having nipples with 2500 tris instead of just 500 (what i do envy though, are the changes to the flow of the topology the 3BA body has).

 

 

Anyway, the decision is on the DD team.
And if @audhol, or anybody else is willing to help make better meshes, maybe it ca nremain an optional thing, or maybe i can justdistribute those with my Adjustable Gags mod (which, by the way, will be changed into more generalized "Adjustable Items" mod, with support for all kinds of accessories, including clothing items like corsets/whathaveyou to squeeze the waist or push the breasts up, etc.)

Edited September 17, 2022 by Roggvir

[audhol]

@Roggvir

 

Noted the points you made and I will use the nif you supplied as a base for HDGagProjectGen5

 

Just trying to give a final push to another Tattoo pack I'm working on before going full beans on the gags.

 

What are your thoughts on adding support for hairstyles I.E. wigs attached to the gag nif? Probably adding an optional dependancie to KS hairs or finding hairstyles that have open permissions?

[Kimy]

Short heads-up: I caught that stupid virus again. Meh! Work on Beta 8 was going well, but now there will be a bit of a delay until it's ready for release.

[audhol]

17 minutes ago, Kimy said:

I caught that stupid virus again.

In case you need a nurse

[Roggvir]

1 hour ago, audhol said:

@Roggvir

 

Noted the points you made and I will use the nif you supplied as a base for HDGagProjectGen5

 

Just trying to give a final push to another Tattoo pack I'm working on before going full beans on the gags.

 

What are your thoughts on adding support for hairstyles I.E. wigs attached to the gag nif? Probably adding an optional dependancie to KS hairs or finding hairstyles that have open permissions?

There is no rush. I am still drowning in other, previously made promises

 

Adding support to hairstyles... no, but also yes...
I already decided, i will be extending the mod to allow it handling ANY kind of item - not just head accessories like gags, earrings, noserings, but even clothing (anything really).
Corsets, push up bras, a lot of items can benefit from such system. People could make presets that apply/adjust body morphs when wearing certain clothing item.
Many people may not see the benefits right away, because maybe they never bothered with using different BS presets for different items/clothing, but for those like me, who build clothing items using dozen of different presets for different kind of items (clothes, light armor, heavy armor, corsets, tighter corsets, loose robes, things that push breasts up, things that push breasts up even more, etc.) will probably appreciate this.

To finally answer your question:
Since i plan to change it into a universal system for any kind of item, that means you will be able to use it even for wigs if you want to.

But this is a big change, i will need to rewrite and redesign everything from the ground up, so it won't happen overnight.

Edited September 17, 2022 by Roggvir

[naaitsab]

31 minutes ago, audhol said:

In case you need a nurse

 

Or more medicine in the form of a winebottle which may or may not still contain wine

 

Hope you be up and running soon, we could use the time usefully by ironing out some small things so they can be added in the current version.

[blablub1248]

I think it would bei a nice Idea, if there was a bondage related perk set like smithing oder one-handed. There could be things like, ebonite is counted like light-armor or +x% damage on enemyies if you are wearing a catsuit.

[Xenoramos]

On 9/17/2022 at 11:23 PM, Kimy said:

Short heads-up: I caught that stupid virus again. Meh! Work on Beta 8 was going well, but now there will be a bit of a delay until it's ready for release.

Get well soon~

[Zenagia]

On 9/17/2022 at 3:23 PM, Kimy said:

Short heads-up: I caught that stupid virus again. Meh! Work on Beta 8 was going well, but now there will be a bit of a delay until it's ready for release.

So, every Friday, my Mom goes out for lunch with her friends. Sometimes Dad goes, sometimes he doesn't. This past Friday, he did. Well, the friend he happened to be sitting next to called yesterday to tell us that both he and his wife - have the 'Rona.

Today my Dad spiked a fever of 103 - and he's had all 4 shots. So far, Mom and I feel 'ok'.

But... yeah. I feel ya. I was just getting ready to finish up a job for a customer, but I had to tell them that I was pushing it back because I don't want to inadvertantly get them sick. cause... ya know... that's just rude.

[audhol]

@Roggvir

 

Sorry for the delay, been fighting with the CK for 2 days to compile racemenu scripts and it got me thinking that it might be an idea to create a discord for modders to share information thats usefull for anyone wanting to start modding. I have had a few people approach me in PM's looking to create meshes and textures, the knowledge required is buried within mountains of misinformation and falseties just as I discovered when trying to do something new. Nothing in regards to modding is particulaly hard when you have the correct details of whats required and whilst I appreciate that the DD beta forum might not be the correct place to suggest this I have found that there are a lot of very experienced modders here that are willing to help others. We as a community should be supporting newcomers with fresh ideas and I have seen far to many inexperienced modders be flamed for there uninitiated efforts by both the LL and nexus keyboard warriors. 

 

We all have things we could learn from each other and guidance we could offer to those wanting to start modding who have ideas but lack the knowledge to complete them. Also it could be a trading ground between scripters, modelers, animators and writers, as a mutual exchange rather than one being subserviant to the other, ?(lol experience)

 

Anyway this is not just for roggvir but anyone else who thinks it might be a good idea.

 

Again appologies if this is out of place on this thread.

Edited September 20, 2022 by audhol

[naaitsab]

9 hours ago, audhol said:

@Roggvir

 

Sorry for the delay, been fighting with the CK for 2 days to compile racemenu scripts and it got me thinking that it might be an idea to create a discord for modders to share information thats usefull for anyone wanting to start modding. I have had a few people approach me in PM's looking to create meshes and textures, the knowledge required is buried within mountains of misinformation and falseties just as I discovered when trying to do something new. Nothing in regards to modding is particulaly hard when you have the correct details of whats required and whilst I appreciate that the DD beta forum might not be the correct place to suggest this I have found that there are a lot of very experienced modders here that are willing to help others. We as a community should be supporting newcomers with fresh ideas and I have seen far to many inexperienced modders be flamed for there uninitiated efforts by both the LL and nexus keyboard warriors. 

 

We all have things we could learn from each other and guidance we could offer to those wanting to start modding who have ideas but lack the knowledge to complete them. Also it could be a trading ground between scripters, modelers, animators and writers, as a mutual exchange rather than one being subserviant to the other, ?(lol experience)

 

Anyway this is not just for roggvir but anyone else who thinks it might be a good idea.

 

Again appologies if this is out of place on this thread.

There is already a LoversLab Discord with a Elderscrolls section. One could always ask for a channel/category for modding help to be created

[t.ara]

11 hours ago, audhol said:

@Roggvir

 

Sorry for the delay, been fighting with the CK for 2 days to compile racemenu scripts and it got me thinking that it might be an idea to create a discord for modders to share information thats usefull for anyone wanting to start modding. I have had a few people approach me in PM's looking to create meshes and textures, the knowledge required is buried within mountains of misinformation and falseties just as I discovered when trying to do something new. Nothing in regards to modding is particulaly hard when you have the correct details of whats required and whilst I appreciate that the DD beta forum might not be the correct place to suggest this I have found that there are a lot of very experienced modders here that are willing to help others. We as a community should be supporting newcomers with fresh ideas and I have seen far to many inexperienced modders be flamed for there uninitiated efforts by both the LL and nexus keyboard warriors. 

 

We all have things we could learn from each other and guidance we could offer to those wanting to start modding who have ideas but lack the knowledge to complete them. Also it could be a trading ground between scripters, modelers, animators and writers, as a mutual exchange rather than one being subserviant to the other, ?(lol experience)

 

Anyway this is not just for roggvir but anyone else who thinks it might be a good idea.

 

Again appologies if this is out of place on this thread.

Some creators offered guides. This is helpful. As long there´s a wish, you will get forward.

But for software, there are other methods better...p.m.´s may be the most bad idea. You need professional lessons-maybe by video conferences / "making of´s" or maybe together with a professional teacher, beginning with easy assets and then raise the skills slowly, depending on what is wanted. Before your objects make the way into the game, you need to know about the restrictions, which appear by using that tool. You need a plan of your working-process before you begin and it has to be suiting to the tools you use, so to offer a working asset or product of your work.

You can collect your workarounds and lessons inside of a book, which you can use as a personal guide. After some years you won ´t need that any longer, depending on your learning curve. Repetitions of creating some same assets will help to optimize such workarounds. You´ll find out some optimization and keep them in mind. You´ll find also lot of guides have wrong or uncomfortable workarounds, which can also be made in a different and more faster way. Some rumors also might appear-some wrong information also is possible and normal-specially if it comes to animation-creations, I´m sorry. Other stuff which is quite important is standing nowhere, nobody knows and you suddenly do it by yourself. You have to learn to optimize the time in front of the screen.

You see it can take time only for a CK to do what you want (the step you described there, I made yesterday in about 1-2minutes so to get a working racemenu-script for a 3BBB body in Skyrim LE...the newcomers have to live with the facts, that they need to learn a lot and that modding is nothing for only for some weeks or month. This aspect you have to communicate. And lot of guys became ill (burn out) in front of the computer-screen because they did not learn to work professional.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 21, 2022 by t.ara

[incrediblysecure]

17 hours ago, audhol said:

@Roggvir

 

Sorry for the delay, been fighting with the CK for 2 days

 

im not an expert but i've found that compiling scripts externally when possible (ie for anything that doesnt need you to populate new properties in the esp) avoids a LOT of headache

 

other than that all of my compilation issues have been caused by mod organizer being a very inconvenient tool or people using soft dependencies that aren't clearly labeled

[ChandraArgentis]

On 9/17/2022 at 3:23 PM, Kimy said:

Short heads-up: I caught that stupid virus again. Meh! Work on Beta 8 was going well, but now there will be a bit of a delay until it's ready for release.

For Beta 8, can you fix the installer bug with Cursed Loot?

 

You can't install Cursed Loot without DD being installed, but you can't enable CL support when you install DD unless it's already installed.  Because of this, when you install DD, you have to first install it, then install CL, then reinstall DD.

[Kimy]

3 hours ago, incrediblysecure said:

 

im not an expert but i've found that compiling scripts externally when possible (ie for anything that doesnt need you to populate new properties in the esp) avoids a LOT of headache

 

Use this setup for compiling scripts: https://www.creationkit.com/index.php?title=Notepad%2B%2B_Setup

 

Mind to install ALL of DD's hard AND soft requirements, including the LOOSE version of SLA.

 

3 hours ago, incrediblysecure said:

 

other than that all of my compilation issues have been caused by mod organizer being a very inconvenient tool or people using soft dependencies that aren't clearly labeled

 

Personally I would advise against using MO for developing. It will cause unnecessary blood, sweat and tears to get it to run with the toolchain, and MO offers zero advantage for development. Use good 'ol NMM or a manual installation instead.

[Kimy]

1 hour ago, ChandraArgentis said:

For Beta 8, can you fix the installer bug with Cursed Loot?

 

You can't install Cursed Loot without DD being installed, but you can't enable CL support when you install DD unless it's already installed.  Because of this, when you install DD, you have to first install it, then install CL, then reinstall DD.

 

What installer bug?

[Kimy]

On 9/20/2022 at 1:54 AM, Zenagia said:

So, every Friday, my Mom goes out for lunch with her friends. Sometimes Dad goes, sometimes he doesn't. This past Friday, he did. Well, the friend he happened to be sitting next to called yesterday to tell us that both he and his wife - have the 'Rona.

Today my Dad spiked a fever of 103 - and he's had all 4 shots. So far, Mom and I feel 'ok'.

But... yeah. I feel ya. I was just getting ready to finish up a job for a customer, but I had to tell them that I was pushing it back because I don't want to inadvertantly get them sick. cause... ya know... that's just rude.

 

Yeah, this bug is brutal. We don't go out much as a family (nobody here commutes, we don't go to restaurants/bars etc., have met with friends only outdoors this year...), and still all got the thing. My mom brought it home when she had passport pictures taken and had to remove her mask for that for all but 5 minutes... oO

[audhol]

10 hours ago, t.ara said:

You can collect your workarounds and lessons inside of a book, which you can use as a personal guide

 

4 hours ago, incrediblysecure said:

im not an expert but i've found that compiling scripts externally when possible

This was the point I was trying to make, there are simply hundreds of pitfalls and dead ends for new modders to try to circumnavigate that I'm sure 95% give up. I know that most of you are using LE CK as your development tool and arguments LE Vs SE Vs Ae are simply irrelevant as all new modders will have the SE version of CK. My particular issue was that I had not placed manually the SKSE scripts in the relevant folder for the SE CK so nothing would compile. The simple fact is that anyone new wanting to mod will have to spend countless hours chasing down problems if they want to have compatibility with older mods. I wonder if this is partialy the reason behind the fact that there is nothing new coming out on LL whereas nexus is a hive of mods that are pushing the boundaries of the game such as traversal and precision?

[ChandraArgentis]

1 hour ago, Kimy said:

What installer bug?

 

As you're no doubt aware, when you install DD in a compatible mod organizer (such as Vortex in my case), you get the various install options - such as installing UNP or CBBE compatibility, installing beast race/male compatibility, and so on.  The final menu has like, 3 checkboxes, one of which is for DCL compatibility.  Everything is greyed out unless you have the corresponding mod already installed.  The problem is, you can't install DCL without DD being installed already (at least not in Vortex).

[ChandraArgentis]

41 minutes ago, ChandraArgentis said:

 

As you're no doubt aware, when you install DD in a compatible mod organizer (such as Vortex in my case), you get the various install options - such as installing UNP or CBBE compatibility, installing beast race/male compatibility, and so on.  The final menu has like, 3 checkboxes, one of which is for DCL compatibility.  Everything is greyed out unless you have the corresponding mod already installed.  The problem is, you can't install DCL without DD being installed already (at least not in Vortex).

 

Spoilered for length:

Spoiler

I uninstalled both to gather screenshots as if it were a clean install.  DD 5.2 b7.7 and DCL 9.

 

...and here is the page with the issues.  The options are greyed out if the addon isn't already installed:

 

You think, "Ok, fine, I need to install DCL first.  Nope:

 

So you have to install DD, then install DCL, then reinstall DD to enable DCL support in DD.

 

Edited September 21, 2022 by ChandraArgentis

[Kimy]

Right! Will fix that.

[daeeb1a]

Discord servers make for terrible knowledgebases. Cannot be seen by google, so only people who were told "there'd a discord server you might want to join" even know it exists at all. Chat history is linear and can only be edited by each message's original author, message order immutable if you hit the character limit. When the original invite dies, it becomes nigh-impossible for new people to join until someone already in the server notices. Every time I've seen a community create a new server, it fractures activity, with a subgroup moving into the new hotness, the old stagnating, yet enough of the old core remains behind that the new server never replaces the old community fully either; they both suffer from the split. Public blog posts and wikis make for far better knowledgebases long-term, especially as you can edit in cross-links so that articles are actually discoverable. While there is a benefit to chat rooms for getting quick help with a pressing problem, it's even better if someone can take the knowledge shared and then edit it into an article or FAQ to preserve it.

[audhol]

@Roggvir

 

Using your Nif I have added more segments to all the straps, 

 

Spoiler

 

I did notice in a couple of places your nif was colliding with the female head so I moved a to compensate

 

Spoiler

 

 

Also doubled the number of segments on the Toruses but kept the same number of rings

 

 

Spoiler

 

 

Total face count has risen from 6196  to  7676 so I dont think thats going to have much of an impact even on a potato PC

 

gagHarnessBallHD.nif