Starfield Direct looked amazing. Very promising.

[donttouchmethere]

I won't be forming an opinion about Starfield for the next 2 years.

I won't be forming an opinion about Starfield for the next 2 years.

I won't be forming an opinion about Starfield for the next 2 years.

I won't be forming an opinion about Starfield for the next 2 years.

I won't be forming an opinion about Starfield for the next 2 years.

...

[DocClox]

58 minutes ago, Miauzi said:

what quality assurance?

 

Most amusing.

[unwashed biomass]

I personally can't wait for the game. Not hyped - just wanna something new to play. And i hope Starfield will be big succes and attract lots of players, thou i am aware times had changed and even if starfield would surpass skyrim in popularity, modding scene wouldn't be the same anyway (paywalled stuff that plauges nowadays).

[WandererZero]

On 6/14/2023 at 6:55 AM, Monoman1 said:

Everybody remembers backwards flying dragons...

 

On 6/14/2023 at 7:14 AM, Monoman1 said:

I would say however that the value prospect of these things is usually pretty poor.

 

Okay. Been watching this subthread about pre-order vs pre-order, etc. Strap in, cause this is gonna be a bit long in the tello.

 

I mean, sure. Bethesda games lack polish on release; they can be bug riddled affairs. Remember how New Vegas was corrupting whole ass save files on release? Forcing people to start new games? I do. We could crash the LL db trying to compose an all encompassing list of crap bugs Bethesda hasn't fixed in products on release. We could crash the fixed database by listing bugs they still haven't fixed.

 

What you're omitting though, or missing anyway...is that value is decided on an individual basis. What's of value to you, is not the same as what is of value to me, or to anyone else.

 

I've got 2600+ hours in Fallout4. About 3000+ in 3/New Vegas. Only about 2000 in SSE. I pre-order Bethesda games. Why?

 

Because I know what to expect, and I know what I am getting. But if that's not a good enough reason for you, try this one:

 

Bethesda releasing their games in that state has been a boon for Modders. SSE alone on Nexus? 2.6 Billion downloads of SSE mods. So okay, we get a base minimum polished game release. But what we also get some of the wildest and most permissive modding environments in gaming today. The joke is that modders fix their game. What's missed in this punchline is that, we also get to do pretty much whatever we want with the end product. I dunno about you, but for that....$99 bucks sounds like a bargain. Almost a fire sale price.

 

Think Ubisoft or Activision/Blizzard would let anyone do the same with their stuff? Blizzard sues anyone who dares to use their content in a way they don't like. Ubisoft has literally stated they believe 95% of PC users are pirates.

 

But let's get back on point: let's look at CDPR: they stoked the same kind of hype fire Bethesda did. But then, they released Cyberpunk 2077; a clusterfuck....and their modding landscape is a fucking wasteland of bullshit, kludges, and shitty half ass efforts at supporting "mods".

 

I received 2077 as a gift, but I can tell you right now...i'd never pre-order from CDPR ever.  I don't want my cash supporting that kind of shitty developer/publisher behavior. I won't reward them with that.

 

I will pre-order Starfield. Why?

 

Because Bethesda sells games that we have all gotten thousands upon thousands upon THOUSANDS of hours of entertainment value....forever extended by the tool chain they kickstart with a GECK, or a Creation Kit.  Is that tool chain perfect? Hell fucking no. The CK is barely documented, but it at least is a great bootstrap into getting the rest of the tool chain going. Hence xedit, etc. Before the AE dropped...who was it warned the modding community about the changes coming, how it would affect SKSE? Oh, right...it was someone at...Bethesda.

 

So. As a consumer, if I want to vote with my wallet, punish a developer for being a bad actor....(like say, CDPR), because their products are of a diminished value....should I not also reward a publisher who does increase my value for their products? (Like say, Bethesda?) Who release these huge sandbox worlds, and say to the people buying them: go fucking nuts.

 

CDPR sent a cease and desist for a mod letting you have sex with Keanu. Any one of us could whip up a sex mod with Keanu, or any number of other celebs in Skyrim, or Fallout...and we wouldn't hear a peep. Dunno about you, but that also increases the value of Bethesda products, despite their state on launch.

 

Ultimately a consumer should be educating themselves, and looking at all of these points before opening their wallet. Shouting "No Preorders" is just a peel and stick debate point. It misses a lot, and the volume of the voice does not actually improve the argument.

 

Of course, if Bethesda burns us on Starfield...it means I won't pre-order from them again. I tend to operate on a "one strike and you're out" policy for the most part; and even there...I'll look at the totality of things. If they release Starfield, and then fail to release a CK, or whatever they're calling it now with Creation Engine 2....then we'll know the golden age of Bethesda is over. But I'm betting they'll make good.

 

We all hear, all of the time...how shitty devs are, how terrible they treat us...and then we hear about how horrible it all is. But when a Developer, despite their faults...actually does something consumer positive...like making sure you can mod their product as much as you want, how you want...it's all lost in the wash: "They're assholes, fuck them, don't buy their stuff until its in a Steam Sale. They don't give a fuck"...

 

So, sure. We can all admit that Bethesda is a crap big corporation. No, they don't "care" about any one of us. They're a for profit company. But they do care about the reputation they've built, and how the scope of their offerings have made them a standard bearer for things like modding, and open world games...

 

And THAT translates into value for folks like me, and a lot of other folks who get to do pretty much whatever the hell they want with the software. Where else can you get that kind of value in games today? I can think of one other dev who offers that much value: Concerned Ape. Dude's literally made shit EASIER for modders of Stardew Valley by design. He's got a new game coming. I'll be pre-ordering it. Why? I want to reward devs and pubs who behave like this.

 

So, there it is. Pre-order, don't pre-order....it's up to you of course. But blanket, peel and stick arguments do not help or educate consumers. I'd encourage people to look at the totality of a dev/publisher's history...look at what matters to them, and determine if the value is there, and buy, pre-order or don't based on your own criteria.

 

Cheers.

 

[worik]

3 hours ago, donttouchmethere said:

I won't be forming an opinion about Starfield for the next 2 years.

I won't be forming an opinion about Starfield for the next 2 years.

I won't be forming an opinion about Starfield for the next 2 years.

I won't be forming an opinion about Starfield for the next 2 years.

I won't be forming an opinion about Starfield for the next 2 years.

...

?Smart move... waiting for the bugs to get fixed by the community before trying anything at all with the game.

 

I guess, you should be a role model for everybody ?

[Monoman1]

4 hours ago, DocClox said:

the dragon incident is hardly representative

But it kind of is. Look, I'm not going to bang on about it because it wasn't really my point but I'm sorry. If you don't notice a dragon flying backwards in testing then what else are you missing? 

 

1 hour ago, WandererZero said:

Because I know what to expect

Ah. No, you don't. Thats my point. So far you've seen what they've wanted you to see. That's marketing. If something looks bad in marketing then its really shit marketing. 

 

By your own admission its mostly about the mods (and I won't even go on about paid mods here because you know that's probably going to be pushed a lot more this time around). Its gonna take 6 -12 months for the CK to come out. And probably the best part of another year or so after that before good mods start coming out. 

 

So you can take your 70e bet now and spin the wheel or wait a while and purchase a product thats a known quantity and likely get a better product, maybe actually with mods and probably for less dosh too...  thats my point. (Re Digital preorders)

 

Forgive me but I just don't understand the mentality. Its like buying a house based on the floor plans. If you were to wait for one or two reviews and then buy it at full price id have absolutely no problem with it. You're not losing anything by not preordering digital versions. 

 

Collectors editions then id remind people of crappy bags and moudly helmets... but id understand those preorders a lot more. 

 

And I'm out of this thread now. I believe I've been fairly reasonable. 

[27X]

5 hours ago, donttouchmethere said:

I won't be forming an opinion about Starfield for the next 2 years.

I won't be forming an opinion about Starfield for the next 2 years.

I won't be forming an opinion about Starfield for the next 2 years.

I won't be forming an opinion about Starfield for the next 2 years.

I won't be forming an opinion about Starfield for the next 2 years.

...

 

I will pay the people doing the scaffolding for their due diligence; just like the rest of the bethesda library  I won't be installing anything for at least two years; and half the mods I skimmed off will probably not work anymore.

Edited June 15, 2023 by 27X

[donttouchmethere]

1 hour ago, 27X said:

 

I will pay the people doing the scaffolding for their due diligence; just like the rest of the bethesda library  I won't be installing anything for at least two years; and half the mods I skimmed off will probably not work anymore.

My translator says the whole comment makes no sense.

But this one made me curious anyways: "and half the mods I skimmed off will probably not work anymore."

That sounds sad, future sad.

Edited June 15, 2023 by donttouchmethere

[Miauzi]

Soso - ships

what I have seen so far ... are containers glued together but no ships

Do you know what a RAUMSCHIFF should look like - that you don't have to hide in the spaceport even as a captain ... but shows proudly?

No? Then look here:

 

a little atmosphere from a real WORLD DREAM game:

 

 

[donttouchmethere]

3 hours ago, worik said:

?Smart move... waiting for the bugs to get fixed by the community before trying anything at all with the game.

 

I guess, you should be a role model for everybody ?

What I actually meant is that I like what I see so far (a lot).

I try hard not to get too hyped so any disappointment can't hit as hard.

If it gets more stable and even has DLCs until I have time for it all the better (I would need to play it a lot to immerse myself).

If it turns out to be as boring as an unmodded Skyrim (limited dialogue choices, limited NPC interaction, repetitive quests, no catchy ambience) then 2 years wouldn't be enough time that mods could turn that around.

I am definitely spoiled by a modded Skyrim. ☺️

 

[Wandering_Mania]

1 hour ago, Miauzi said:

what I have seen so far ... are containers glued together but no ships

Yeah, I agree. Nothing like what can be made in Empyrion. Like this:

 

[NFG.Zenith]

5 hours ago, Miauzi said:

what I have seen so far ... are containers glued together but no ships

This is the worse take I've seen.

 

Starfield has an entirely different art style than Elite Dangerous. They are trying to make the ships seem like what NASA spacecraft look like, they are trying to make it look like something that the NASA of today would make. 

 

They are going for believability. If you want stylish Sci-Fi ships just wait for modders to do it and if you don't want to wait for mods to offer that then keep your mouth shut.

 

They are going the style they want, if you don't like that style then play games with that style and keep your trap shut.

[Miauzi]

Vor 36 Minuten sagte NFG.Zenith:

Das ist die schlechteste Einstellung, die ich je gesehen habe.

 

Starfield hat einen völlig anderen Kunststil als Elite Dangerous. Sie versuchen, die Schiffe so aussehen zu lassen, wie NASA-Raumschiffe aussehen, sie versuchen, es wie etwas aussehen zu lassen, was die NASA heute machen würde. 

 

Sie streben nach Glaubwürdigkeit. Wenn Sie stilvolle Sci-Fi-Schiffe wollen, warten Sie einfach auf Modder, und wenn Sie nicht darauf warten wollen, dass Mods das anbieten, dann halten Sie den Mund.

 

Sie verfolgen den Stil, den sie wollen. Wenn Ihnen dieser Stil nicht gefällt, spielen Sie Spiele mit diesem Stil und halten Sie die Klappe.

 

NASA spaceships, however, do not have OVERLIGHT propulsion - so NASA cannot serve as a visual model here - a really stupid argument.

(reads to me like "nice booze" or "I took the red pill").

And of course I don't let any user here forbid me to express my opinion.

 

---

how one is supposed to survive an entry into the planetary atmosphere with this cobbled-together collection of containers from an orbital orbit ... I'm not even thinking about that - whoever is arguing with realism here -> ?

Edited June 16, 2023 by Miauzi

[Wandering_Mania]

1 hour ago, NFG.Zenith said:

This is the worse take I've seen.

 

Starfield has an entirely different art style than Elite Dangerous. They are trying to make the ships seem like what NASA spacecraft look like, they are trying to make it look like something that the NASA of today would make. 

 

They are going for believability. If you want stylish Sci-Fi ships just wait for modders to do it and if you don't want to wait for mods to offer that then keep your mouth shut.

 

They are going the style they want, if you don't like that style then play games with that style and keep your trap shut.

And that right there is the worst take I've ever seen.

 

As the only time a 'Gravity Drive' is mentioned was in a 'Sci-fi' movie. The movie 'Event Horizon' to be specific. As seen in the scene below:

NASA has not made one. Nor is even close to making one. 'Realistic Style' in a Sci-Fi game, while dismissing any and all 'Sci-Fi' elements... Well, at that point you might as well just start making a flight sim and be done with it.

[bjornk]

 

2 hours ago, NFG.Zenith said:

They are going for believability.

Optimus Prime respectfully disagrees.
 

Spoiler

 

[Alessia Wellington]

2 minutes ago, bjornk said:

Optimus Prime respectfully disagrees.

 

What's that? Wide Prime?

[27X]

10 hours ago, donttouchmethere said:

My translator says the whole comment makes no sense.

But this one made me curious anyways: "and half the mods I skimmed off will probably not work anymore."

That sounds sad, future sad.

 

How many starting couple of years mods do you still have installed?

[bjornk]

16 minutes ago, Alessia Wellington said:

What's that?

A Dwarven battleship.

[pandora11juliana]

Em 13/06/2023 em 07:06, Papersword disse:

 

Eu definitivamente ouvi o tipo de crítica da história dirigida a Oblivion pelos fãs de Morrowind e, para ser honesto, as discussões sobre o cânone são interessantes para mim porque cada jogo de Elder Scrolls tem um tom e estilo totalmente diferentes. As coisas mudam, outras permanecem as mesmas, mas você pode escolher a época que mais combina com você e ficar lá para sempre. E isso é ótimo. Há uma razão para cada jogo ter comunidades de modding tão dedicados. Cada grupo quer uma expansão no mundo que amam. 

 

Acho que sua menção de queimar pontes está de alguma forma ligada ao que @Miauzi disse. Você está referenciando TES Online e Fallout 76 como eles? Entendo a ocultar das pessoas com esses jogos por vários motivos, mas nenhum deles foi feito pela Bethesda Game Studio, e sim pela Zenimax Online e pela Bethesda Austin, respectivamente. 

 

Quanto à carne real do seu ponto,@Miauzi, Eu vejo muito o argumento do Unofficial Patch como munição "Bugthesda". Mas não parece fazer muito sentido afirmar que a única razão pela qual as pessoas gostam dos jogos da Bethesda é por causa dos mods. A grandeza dos jogos veio em primeiro lugar, a comunidade modding em segundo. Não haveria uma comunidade tão grande e desejava gastar dezenas de milhares de horas coletivas criando para um jogo que estava quebrado. Observe a diferença de escopo entre a comunidade de mods de Skyrim e Fallout 4; FO4 era menos atraente para muitas pessoas do que Skyrim, então a paixão por modificá-lo não era a mesma. Sem mencionar o fato de que uma porcentagem muito grande de jogadores se apaixona por ambos os jogos antes mesmo de terem acesso ao modding.Pessoalmente, joguei Skyrim por pelo menos mil horas no Xbox 360. 

 

O Patch não oficial (ignorando alguns aspectos dele que claramente nem são correções de bugs) representa um triunfo. É um esforço enorme para melhorar um jogo que as pessoas adoram. Um esforço que é totalmente irracional para um desenvolvedor fazer. Principalmente quando você considera o salário dos funcionários e que muita gente também joga sem ele. Não tenho certeza se é mesmo necessário, apenas um ponto de "conhecimento comum" que as pessoas repetem. Parece haver um grupo crescente de jogadores que estão abandonando completamente o USSEP ou nunca o instalaram para começar. 

 

De qualquer forma, peço desculpas por estar fora do assunto e/ou parecer combativo. Eu sou cem por cento um apologista de Todd, então você pode me desconsiderar.   

Pode

 

On 13/06/2023 at 06:51, Resdayn said:

? Estou curioso para saber como vai, talvez curioso sobre os futuros mods com ele.

 

Mas eu não tenho grandes expectativas

E eu tbm estou 

[t.ara]

5 hours ago, NFG.Zenith said:

This is the worse take I've seen.

 

Starfield has an entirely different art style than Elite Dangerous. They are trying to make the ships seem like what NASA spacecraft look like, they are trying to make it look like something that the NASA of today would make. 

 

They are going for believability. If you want stylish Sci-Fi ships just wait for modders to do it and if you don't want to wait for mods to offer that then keep your mouth shut.

 

They are going the style they want, if you don't like that style then play games with that style and keep your trap shut.

Mentioning one game by the next one...it all doesn´t matter, because all of them fall into the same big problem of limited action:

NASA spaceships are really no serious way and no working measurement how a working space ship could look like to enter the world of the kosmos, specially not and caused by missing energy and conventionally drives. All this game-stuff has unlikly "energy" without stopping, endless and limitless for all sorts of engines. At the front side there´s a cabine for the crew and at the top end, you see some colored rocket-engines wasting away energy for thrust. Yeah! Same way since the first computer-games came out: Pilot and/or small crew flying and shooting inside of a "jet-type obscure mankind-brain-reduced flying object"-WOW-that´s science-fiction and that´s again spending you another "kick-to-play"???

That´s what is too much a limitted way again of a science-fiction creation of ANOTHER boring game. That´s the problem of science-fiction since all the years back, without any exeptation.

 

 

Seems to me that all that professional creators are not be able to leave old clichés.

The difference between a game and the real world should be a rich fantasy which only is possible to make alive inside of a virtual world and by using virtual power of creating new pictures which can never exist in real life. But instead they sit in space-ships and ride between some celestrial bodies and shoot enemy.

 

On the other side one of the best game engine (rdr2) still has to fight with a simple not working shooting-mechanic of a drum-revolver, which realism alows two shots only before a reload. Missing engineering-depth, I guess. Compared with this, I think that sitting in a spaceship and shooting enemies is much more sci-fi and spending more fun, compared with shooting arrows into knees. Or you do both of that, after each other.

[Wandering_Mania]

25 minutes ago, t.ara said:

All this game-stuff has unlikly "energy" without stopping, endless and limitless for all sorts of engines. At the front side there´s a cabine for the crew and at the top end, you see some colored rocket-engines wasting away energy for thrust.

And there we have the exact reason Gene Roddenberry gave 'the axe' to any kind of flame based propulsion in the first iteration of Star Trek. It's now been ruined with 'Discovery' and some other newer movies/series. But that is the exact reason he said "No flame based propulsion!". Because it is not at all futuristic. Far too inefficient for long term space travel/living. And not at all realistic with what might come along the lines in terms of innovation.

[DocClox]

14 hours ago, Monoman1 said:

20 hours ago, DocClox said:

the dragon incident is hardly representative

But it kind of is. Look, I'm not going to bang on about it because it wasn't really my point

 

 

Nah nah nah. Representative would be if all their bugs involved backwards flying dragons, or something equally outrageous. I'm not saying they don't have unpatched bugs, but  that particular one is an extreme case.

 

14 hours ago, Monoman1 said:

I'm sorry. If you don't notice a dragon flying backwards in testing then what else are you missing? 

 

Yeah, if it was in the newly released game, then sure. The dev team have had months to check dragon flight and it damn well ought to be right.

 

On the other hand, if the team are rushing to the first bugfix patch out the door and a dev doesn't have time to play through Dragon Rising because he's got three more bugs on his list and the boss is shouting to "Get the patch out the door! NOW!", then yeah, it's understandable. Still leaves Beth with egg on their face, but hardly indicative of the sort of institutional incompetence that people sometimes suggest.

[DocClox]

16 minutes ago, Wandering_Mania said:

Because it is not at all futuristic. Far too inefficient for long term space travel/living. And not at all realistic with what might come along the lines in terms of innovation.

 

I think I'm going to headcanon the ships as using gravity manipulation to provide delat-v. The stuff coming out the back is a plasma byproduct from the process.

 

[Guest]

I value everyone's opinion and am not trying to change your point of view. 

 

So much negativity about a game that has not even launched yet, a short gameplay taste that showed glimpses of gameplay we can imagine through the games we have.

Where is the optimism, the hope, the excitement as I surely know I am bored as all get out playing the same games over and over! Were it not for mods and the modding community here I would be Mad by now having two years at home during That which must not be spoken of.

Will there be bugs, Sure, will there be other things that are a roadblock, Yep.

What new game has ever stood up to one you really loved pre launch, What really looks great other than what you have logged hundreds of hours playing?

Why are most of us here? Bethesda through the Elder Scrolls or Fallout Series, at least that's how I found this Site to gather mods so I could extend my gameplay.

What game has ever met every expectation you have, or want ? None is what I see from what is written in this thread and that is great! The expectations of Better, Faster, Lighter, Features, etc. is what, it seems to me, has driven the Makers to go further and try new things.

Sure "this doesn't work like the one's in that game" " the maker releases unpolished crap" this, that, the other.

I am hoping for the best while expecting nothing, will it remind me of game X, probably, will it be difficult to figure out all the controls, Definitely (especially at my age) but I still believe it will be fun, definitely better than what's offered on the TV, or the 4 streaming services I can afford.

Lastly this is just my viewpoint, you aren't asked to change your point of view, I really don't want to inspire anything except a tiny little bit of Optimism.

Send all Hate Mail to Eric Cartman C/O South Park Co. 

Edited June 16, 2023 by Sir Bron

[DocClox]

8 minutes ago, Sir Bron said:

Lastly this is just my viewpoint, you aren't asked to change your point of view, I really don't want to inspire anything except a tiny little bit of Optimism.

 

I'm optimistic. I surely hadn't expected to be after Fallout 4 and subsequent shenanigans, but nevertheless I am. They've walked back the major complaints I had about Fo4 (strong backstory, player VA, dialogue wheel) and the Creation Club looks like it's being dismantled. Meanwhile, they're making a Bethesda game that takes a lot of it's inspiration from Traveller!  As an old Traveller Referee, that's incredible.

 

So much of what they doing, they're doing right. Sure, there are going to be disappointment. There will be things they didn't do the way I thought, or things that they had to compromise on because they couldn't get them to work right. Hell, I even expect I'll have my fair share of release week grumbles.

 

All that said, this looks like its going to be (pardon the term) stellar. I really think they might really have the next Skyrim here.