quest The Trappings of Fate

[Frayed]

Gonna try to reply to a few folks here:

 

On 3/14/2024 at 9:40 PM, Allen Harris said:

Fwiw, @Frayed, I *really* appreciate your work on this mod, lol.

I know it bby. And I appreciate you (and others) helping people out here. This mod has really gotten too popular for me to do all that properly and develop it with the time I currently have available... Suffering from success, I suppose 😄 

 

@DuskWanderer Thanks for the praise and the multiple detailed posts with feedback! You'll see some of what you mentioned ended up in v2.0.2, but to address some of the other points:

Spoiler

I do kind of agree the potion puzzle could be more interesting, but to find something better I'll need to do some experimenting with the alchemy system to see what's even possible. IIRC player-made potions can't be used in crafting recipes, but I could be wrong on that.

 

TDM is gonna give me trouble for a while yet. The only patch I think can do is disabling it via script during each autowalk section as suggested to me by krzp at some point, but he also mentioned that said fix isn't 100% reliable. That bug is really up to TDM to fix, not me. Changing the autowalk sections is possible in theory, but it requires me to find a different way of forcing the player to follow that's both technically robust and narratively fitting. Possible, but hard.

 

I've seen Rohzima's animations and tested them, but they never really quite fit into the narrative and visual I'd already established

 

The gargoyles being covered when you trick Irkalla back in the first room is a good point - it's occurred to me before but I never fixed it. I can probably add something for that that makes narrative sense.

 

Dialogue that reacts to certain player actions (like already having slain Alduin) is something I may revisit later. Originally, I planned to have some unique things happen if you were carrying Molag Bal's mace when you got captured, like unique dialogue with Bal and having Irkalla use the mace against you in the finale. But it's quite a bit of work for something that only a handful of players will see, and I had (and still kind of have) a big mountain of other stuff to do for this mod, so I decided to cut it for now.

 

The follow-up for Vile's deal is not planned to be in The Gordian Bind. I considered it, but it was already overcrowded with Daedric princes, so I decided against it. I'm still looking for a oh-so-deviously-inconvenient spot in the greater Skyrim world/story to have him call in his favor. Suggestions welcome. The dremora deal from the first quest has very specific conditions for when it's applicable, which so happen to be met just after The Gordian Bind finishes... But I still have to write that part 🤷‍♂️ Also, since I figure you might be the type to find this interesting:

Spoiler

When you start reading between the lines, should you really feel like you are in debt to Mephala, or should it be the other way around?

 

The save before the finale is just using Skyrim's built-in papyrus function Game.SaveGame. If it's doing something weird, that's just par for the course for Bethesda.

 

@qawsedrftg765Thanks for the praise and the feedback!

Spoiler

The tuning fork has nothing to do with the rock / gloomy ruin puzzle. You found the correct spot, but didn't yet figure out the actions required to open the way.

 

The ooze shouldn't be sending you back right away, it should be rising slowly and teleport you once it gets high enough. You also get teleported back after interactions with the mobs in there.

 

The parkour is fine, doesn't break anything. If anything, I might want to make it just a bit easier so that it becomes an alternate path...

 

I might change the potion puzzle, but only if I can find a better way to do it. I have ideas, but it requires some experimenting.

 

I assume by 1 lockpick for the 3rd xcross you mean for the lockbox in Irkalla's bedroom, right? If so, there are a bunch of lockpicks hidden in that room, and Irkalla herself carries a key.

 

Having to give up on the cross during the intro is very much meant to feel unfair: it's supposed to reinforce the idea of what Irkalla told you: "last time was a game, don't expect things to be so easy this time". In practice, there are already fallbacks like what you describe: you can only pick each options twice before it disappears from the menu.

 

The door bar is a dumb vanilla Skyrim bug where Bethesda's door bar script doesn't work properly on load doors. I CBA to fix it right now, but I'll make a note to maybe fix it later.

 

Hm, the "please let me come" dialogue in the bedroom should be working, I've tested it before... I'll keep an eye out for it.

 

@Polonium Thanks for the praise and the feedback! Some replies:

Spoiler

1. I get what you're saying about the lockpicks, but keep in mind that the nonzero lockpick chance also acts as a failsafe against softlocks if you for any reason cannot find the key. I've been quite intentional about this: every device that is not explicitly inescapable is fine to escape at any time without breaking anything. That said, I'll consider adding some dialogue for the keys, since that would make sense as a topic anyway.

 

2. The only point where hoovering up items gets a bit strange is the fact you have a full inventory when Irkalla comes to check up on you when you return to the first room. I considered removing your items there, but it wasn't really necessary for any technical reasons, nor did it really add anything interesting. So I decided against it there. For the trials I already wipe the player's inventory and return it afterwards (which still doesn't always just work like Todd promises).

 

3. The checks are coded to always tell you about the next device that you're not yet wearing. I did have to fix some bugs there in v2.0.2, but it should work now. Also, each required item (staves, devices) is in the quest area somewhere at least twice. Including the catsuit. Exactly for the reason you mention 😛 Though of course just it being somewhere doesn't mean a player will then find it when they need a backup... EDIT: apparently excluding the catsuit. Welp. I'll add one 😄 

 

4. Good point. Will do.

 

Edited March 23, 2024 by Frayed

[DuskWanderer]

No, thank you for making this wonderful mod! I'm thrilled to see that I was able to contribute to it in some way, and I cannot wait to play the finished product! I can tell it's in good hands.

 

Spoiler

- If you can't use player made potions, in the mod Remiel - Dwemer Specialist there's a brewing puzzle in its last quest where the player makes a custom lubricant for a busted lock by physically dropping items into a cauldron. That could be a good alternative to take inspiration from.

- A possible failsafe for TDM is a "fade to black" with an appropriate message that teleports that player where they should be if enough time being stuck has passed. It wouldn't work with all controlled-movement sequences, but it might fix the puzzles at least.

- In regards to the Rohzima animations, I largely envisioned them either when the player is grabbed and dragged under the water, and the "battle" between Mephala and Mora. Especially the failures. Just a little something right before the fade out and message to add to the immersion of the peril.

- Considering the Princes say that they'll temporarily weaken the collar's control to allow you to like to Irkalla right before you get caught, perhaps they could also deal with the baskets/inconsistencies as well.

- I agree with you that the Mace of Molag Bal is a bit too rare of a situation to justify working around. I think simply tracking if House of Horrors is complete is a far more logical thing to consider instead.

- As for following up on Vile, I agree that including him in Gordian Bind would be a bit too much. I think the best solution is a simple epilogue mini-quest/event that either takes place in a tiny pocket realm similar to the ending of A Night to Remember, or an easier to implement situation where the player is just locked in a bunch of devices and stranded in the wilderness somewhere. On a similar topic I'm also interested to see if there will be consequences to freeing the Black Book in the laboratory somewhere along the line.
 

Spoiler

In terms of Mephala... I was playing a character that despises Daedra (being an Argonian), so I could easily see the player having different interpretations:

1. Gratitude that Mephala left something valuable for the player to use as leverage to bargain for their freedom. If Mephala really did plan all this then they might appreciate their importance in it and how they're largely being spared compared to the other characters.
2. Pissed that Mephala orchestrated and enabled all this to begin with. Plus Mephala pretty much gambled their soul's safety to Molag Bal.
3. Following the theme of overcoming fate, the player recognizes they're in Mephala's debt but refuses repayment, instead proving their destiny is theirs alone to control.

- Yep, autosaves are infamously terrible, hence why it might be wise to have it be a toggle like what Wyrmstooth and other quest mods do.

 

Edited March 23, 2024 by DuskWanderer

[sivb1]

Spoiler

Hey, excellent mod overall, here are my final toughts.

 

1- In the bedroom, to escape, you need to get the potion that is in the lockbox. I dont know if there is a key for it, but i didnt find it (thankfully I had lockpicks), but yeah if there are no keys for that box, it probably needs one in case you dont have any lockpicks left (or that you break them)

 

2-Getting rid of the comfortable jacket for the room with  the tonal fork (the red jacket) is pretty anoying. Again, if there is a specefic key for it, i havent found it, but removing it by hand was pretty annoying since it seemed to have a lower success chance than other no-key items.

 

3-I play on LE, so idk if its a bug from LE or not, but the shouts in the maze are kinda bugged, in the end i got all three of the unrelenting pull force, but i also got the second word for marked for death (without the first one) and the first word of elemental fury. It doesnt seem to be intentional (since you dont use these shout for anything) so im reporting it (also got the first unrelenting pull shout from killing the first dragon, again i dont know if it is intentional).

 

4- The shout boethia gives, after using it, makes me crash every time i try to save after using it. Dunno if its because LE or something else.

 

5- Molag Bal, in the finale, doesnt seem to have any memory of you making a deal previously during boethias final trial. It seems you just havent implemented it yet, are you planning to release something related to that soon?

 

Again, amazing mod. Dont give up!

 

[qawsedrftg765]

8 hours ago, Frayed said:

@qawsedrftg765Thanks for the praise and the feedback!

  Reveal hidden contents

The tuning fork has nothing to do with the rock / gloomy ruin puzzle. You found the correct spot, but didn't yet figure out the actions required to open the way.

 

The ooze shouldn't be sending you back right away, it should be rising slowly and teleport you once it gets high enough. You also get teleported back after interactions with the mobs in there.

 

The parkour is fine, doesn't break anything. If anything, I might want to make it just a bit easier so that it becomes an alternate path...

 

I might change the potion puzzle, but only if I can find a better way to do it. I have ideas, but it requires some experimenting.

 

I assume by 1 lockpick for the 3rd xcross you mean for the lockbox in Irkalla's bedroom, right? If so, there are a bunch of lockpicks hidden in that room, and Irkalla herself carries a key.

 

Having to give up on the cross during the intro is very much meant to feel unfair: it's supposed to reinforce the idea of what Irkalla told you: "last time was a game, don't expect things to be so easy this time". In practice, there are already fallbacks like what you describe: you can only pick each options twice before it disappears from the menu.

 

The door bar is a dumb vanilla Skyrim bug where Bethesda's door bar script doesn't work properly on load doors. I CBA to fix it right now, but I'll make a note to maybe fix it later.

 

Hm, the "please let me come" dialogue in the bedroom should be working, I've tested it before... I'll keep an eye out for it.

 

 

With the 'give up' starting section I remember some of the struggle options going away but not all after pressing them multiple times. This made me think that I had encountered a 'pity' system where it was removing some of the 'wrong' choices.

With the maze sending me back instantly I  think this might be an issue on my machine. The save I have at the moment is very finicky with water, for example in trial 2 I am able to get the swim animation from the puddle in the cell. 

With the rock blocking the pass I was able to confirm what you have to do and how it works. Just seems a bit hard to figure out, but english is my second language so I might be missing some of the double meaning.

 

as a suggestion could there be a statue of akatosh or something that could offer help like the orb from part 1. I know it is less thematic for part 2 but given how much larger this mod is it might be helpful. 

 

Again this mod is an amazing technical, devious, and narrative achievement.

[noobsaleh]

Just curious but why does the 1.2 voice pack have a CrDremoraVoice folder but the 2.0 voice pack doesn't?

[123abc456777]

I liked the first quest a lot, this second one I'm finding hard to get into because it seems like a lot of waiting for dialogue to complete at the start then once into the main quest part I find it frustrating that you are randomly sent back to the starting position at times and have to do the repetitive escape sequence over and over. It was also annoying that my char auto equipped some items but I think that might be part of devious devices? Either way one of the things I liked most about the first quest was that it didn't really waste the player's time and I think the second quest does and is worse because of it.

[asdfa94]

On 3/17/2024 at 11:44 PM, Frayed said:

 

Noted, should be fixed next patch. Use ftj's workaround for now.

Thank you ^^

[Allen Harris]

Hey @Frayed - So I tried the recent release (2.0.2) of the mod in VR from a completely clean save (escaping Helgen, before I'd installed any mods), and it's CTD. Specifically, if you try to put a basket (not bucket - I don't know if a bucket does that as I haven't gotten that far) on the first gargoyle's head, and inserting the key into the first door. This is all in the first quest of the mod (A Snare to Loosen).

They didn't do that in the original beta release, or in most of the previous versions of the first quest before you released A Gordian Bind.

I'm attaching my Papyrus log, but I don't see anything useful in there. But I'm also not well versed in modding yet, so it's possible I overlooked something. This is a fresh log - I deleted the old logs and loaded a save right before inserting the key into the door.

A point of note: I hadn't run bodyslide since installing the mod, but I don't see how that would cause a crash.

Papyrus.0.log

[Allen Harris]

8 hours ago, 123abc456777 said:

I liked the first quest a lot, this second one I'm finding hard to get into because it seems like a lot of waiting for dialogue to complete at the start then once into the main quest part I find it frustrating that you are randomly sent back to the starting position at times and have to do the repetitive escape sequence over and over. It was also annoying that my char auto equipped some items but I think that might be part of devious devices? Either way one of the things I liked most about the first quest was that it didn't really waste the player's time and I think the second quest does and is worse because of it.

There's a way to stop from getting sent back to the XCross and auto-equip bondage items. You did something in the first act to stop some pesky things from watching you. You can do it in the second quest as well.

[Frayed]

1 hour ago, Allen Harris said:

Hey @Frayed - So I tried the recent release (2.0.2) of the mod in VR from a completely clean save (escaping Helgen, before I'd installed any mods), and it's CTD. Specifically, if you try to put a basket (not bucket - I don't know if a bucket does that as I haven't gotten that far) on the first gargoyle's head, and inserting the key into the first door. This is all in the first quest of the mod (A Snare to Loosen).

They didn't do that in the original beta release, or in most of the previous versions of the first quest before you released A Gordian Bind.

I'm attaching my Papyrus log, but I don't see anything useful in there. But I'm also not well versed in modding yet, so it's possible I overlooked something. This is a fresh log - I deleted the old logs and loaded a save right before inserting the key into the door.

A point of note: I hadn't run bodyslide since installing the mod, but I don't see how that would cause a crash.

Papyrus.0.logFetching info...

Dangit. It's so annoying, I'm pretty sure that this is an engine-level bug that has something to do with either disabling or modifying the item held by the player, but since I don't have VR the best I can to is guess at a proper workaround. A papyrus log unfortunately doesn't contain info on crashes, but other loggers do. If you have either .NET Script Framework, Crash Logger or something similar, these can produce logs with info on crashes. Could you get me one of those? Preferably the .NET Script Framework ones since I know best how to read those, but any will do. Maybe I can get a better idea of what specifically is causing this. 

[Allen Harris]

21 minutes ago, Frayed said:

Dangit. It's so annoying, I'm pretty sure that this is an engine-level bug that has something to do with either disabling or modifying the item held by the player, but since I don't have VR the best I can to is guess at a proper workaround. A papyrus log unfortunately doesn't contain info on crashes, but other loggers do. If you have either .NET Script Framework, Crash Logger or something similar, these can produce logs with info on crashes. Could you get me one of those? Preferably the .NET Script Framework ones since I know best how to read those, but any will do. Maybe I can get a better idea of what specifically is causing this. 

Unfortunately, those loggers don't work in VR. I do however have Engine Fixes VR, which I think does logging. Does anyone know where it puts its logs?

 

Edit: Oh, wait - Crash Logger says it works in VR. I'm attaching the log files.

sksevr.log skyrimvresl.log SkyrimVRTools.log EngineFixesVR.log sksevr_loader.log crash-2024-03-24-21-09-58.log CrashLogger.log skeevr.log

Edited March 24, 2024 by Allen Harris

[qawsedrftg765]

I have an issue with the third trial.
 

 

 

when I tell molag to piss off I lose control of my character and she moves a tiny bit then just gets stuck in an loop of small movements that don't move me. Like the first 1/10th of an animation plays then loops again OR when I restarted the game It was just walking in a loop around the prisoners.
 

 

Edited March 25, 2024 by qawsedrftg765

[qoop272]

I'm so lost, after getting 3 riddle note about whisper cave, I don't know what to do

 

I did find a submerged cave, but door is sealed by magic

 

I have been noclipping and checking script file just to figure how to proceed, so far it's just pure frustration compare to first quest

Edited March 25, 2024 by qoop272

[qawsedrftg765]

Hey I just finished the mod (I think)

 

I am pretty sure I got the "I am a selfish asshole get me out ending" but I have to say I liked what the question was. I think the Shout that you learn from Boethia is REALLY strong for a play-though that has a lot of devices; well deserved but still I would actually like a way to forget it perhaps you could offer us some massive gold/items on the way out in exchange for forgetting the shout?

I found the puzzles towards the end to be a bit harder and would like more hints but I might be stupid

 

but I loved the conversations with the Dramora in stocks a lot. I also thought the ending where you get tied up at the end in the courtyard was great themeing and I loved the spells that are used where when you get hit by enough you get tied up.

 

At the end walker was just at the entrance of the tree hanging around, did she have more dialog to offer after the quest was over? Overall great mod

[Allen Harris]

4 hours ago, qawsedrftg765 said:

Hey I just finished the mod (I think)

 

 

  Hide contents

 

 

I am pretty sure I got the "I am a selfish asshole get me out ending" but I have to say I liked what the question was. I think the Shout that you learn from Boethia is REALLY strong for a play-though that has a lot of devices; well deserved but still I would actually like a way to forget it perhaps you could offer us some massive gold/items on the way out in exchange for forgetting the shout?

I found the puzzles towards the end to be a bit harder and would like more hints but I might be stupid

 

but I loved the conversations with the Dramora in stocks a lot. I also thought the ending where you get tied up at the end in the courtyard was great themeing and I loved the spells that are used where when you get hit by enough you get tied up.

 

At the end walker was just at the entrance of the tree hanging around, did she have more dialog to offer after the quest was over? Overall great mod
 

 

 

Frayed hasn't really finished the ending stuff. I don't think Walker has any dialog yet. None of the 3 of them do.

[qoop272]

What to do with barred entrance in room with dwemer machine? I keep seeing people say to tune the fork but there's zero explanation

 

I'm close to just console command to skip everything

[Allen Harris]

56 minutes ago, qoop272 said:

What to do with barred entrance in room with dwemer machine? I keep seeing people say to tune the fork but there's zero explanation

 

I'm close to just console command to skip everything

I think Frayed may have made it clearer in the recent update. Yes, you have to tune the tonal fork, and that's used in getting past the door, a room that contains a sword you have to get.

[qoop272]

8 minutes ago, Allen Harris said:

I think Frayed may have made it clearer in the recent update. Yes, you have to tune the tonal fork, and that's used in getting past the door, a room that contains a sword you have to get.

 

Those bar never get removed no matter how I touch it with fork

I still got sword anyway, I don't know what's the point of those bar

Edited March 26, 2024 by qoop272

[Allen Harris]

28 minutes ago, qoop272 said:

 

Those bar never get removed no matter how I touch it with fork

I still got sword anyway, I don't know what's the point of those bar

I never figured it put and ended up clipping through. Frayed said it should be a little clearer in the most recent update 

[squirreldaz]

Quick question, i finished the first quest and if i don't take the deal with claviculus i get sent to simple slavery, what happens if don't have SS installed?

Also, is the favour to do from the deal implemented? 

[sivb1]

Hello! Finished the mod, had lot of fun, was wondering if someone knew all the different ending (it seems that the endings are not all finished/implemented, but would still like to see those that are).

 

On a side note to the you Frayed, here are my few comments on bugs I found:

Spoiler

I play on LE, so I dont know if the problem comes from there or not, but I got the *gargoyles not working* initialy. It fixed itself after I went back onto the cross in the initial room (by myself, nothing forcing me onto it). Seems like it kinda didnt register the first time and going back on the cross forced a reset or something.

 

Another bug is the scen in the bedroom, where the game always crashed after the masturbation scene. I went past it by using another mod that have a *end scene* option, and then used console command. Really dunno about this one.

 

Another bug (i think) is the shouts in the maze. Getting all three results in having the unrelenting pull unlocked, thatys good, but I also got the second word to marked for death (without the first) and the first word for elemental fury. Also got the first word of urelenting pull after killing the first dragon of the game.

 

Another bug is during the trial where you have to escape bedfore the crystal hit the ceiling, i cant get the tool inside the hole in the wall. I think its a bug but it could just be that i tried it too early or something. I was sliding it everywhere on the wall but it did not work.

 

Final bug is that after using boethias shout, if i try to save the game, my game just crashes instead. Dunno what causes this. Just ended up getting all the devices off normaly, but yeah.

 

One not bug related thing is that the jacket to enter the laboratory is pretty anoying to get out of compared to like the white jacket. I dont mind that much devices that are hard to get out without a key, or that dont have a 100% chances to get out, but this one kinda annoyed me. Personal preference, but i would increase the chance of getting out a little (if you can, maybe its not something you can easily control, i dont know).

 

Again, thanks for the mod.

 

[sivb1]

48 minutes ago, qoop272 said:

 

Those bar never get removed no matter how I touch it with fork

I still got sword anyway, I don't know what's the point of those bar

Spoiler

As I understood, the bar are supposed to stay there, you are supposed to use the shout you get in the maze to get the sword after using the fork to break the barrier

 

[Jsis]

Loving the mod so far! Is there a way to skip a snare to loosen in order to test changes between beta releases? I want to start on a clean save but was hoping to avoid doing part 1 again. 
 

thanks!

[sorrowsmith]

11 hours ago, qoop272 said:

 

Those bar never get removed no matter how I touch it with fork

I still got sword anyway, I don't know what's the point of those bar

 

The point of the bars is to prevent you from getting the sword until after you have done the maze (and hopefully have completed Azura's shrine).  

[Frayed]

9 hours ago, Jsis said:

Loving the mod so far! Is there a way to skip a snare to loosen in order to test changes between beta releases? I want to start on a clean save but was hoping to avoid doing part 1 again.

Enter the command "setstage frayeq2 1" into your console and it'll quickstart The Gordian Bind. Stages 1-7 are all debug quickstart stages for various parts of the quest. If you want to skip the intro too, use "setstage frayeq2 2" and it'll put you right after escaping the first room. Stages 3-7 put you further into the quest, but I recommend not using those since they may not set the full quest state up to that point correctly, so they may have bugs of their own.