Realism vs. Cool: Blog criticizes "Boob Plate Armor"

[Halstrom]

SB.3 with sailormoon mod.

 

The latest version of Super deepthroat that haz gay support ftw.

???

 

Wrong thread?

[Siegehead]

Boob plate armor is ridiculous even if it's fully covering because said boobs would deflect blows straight to the chest. Good armor is supposed to deflect blows away from the body.

 

Serious (non-ornamental) sets of plate armor for women have existed, none of them had rounded domes on the chest.

 

I still love titties in plate and battle lingerie and all that, at least in videogames and graphic novels and even movies to an extent.

 

Side note: It's a misconception that plate armor—advanced full plate, that is—was very restrictive when it came to weight/mobility. Chainmail was actually a lot worse in that regard.

[gregathit]

Side note: It's a misconception that plate armor—advanced full plate, that is—was very restrictive when it came to weight/mobility. Chainmail was actually a lot worse in that regard.

 

Yes and No.  Depends what the chainmail was made of (iron or steel) and depends on what (and who) made the plate. 

Yes some plate was indeed quite mobile and allowed a very good range of movement.  HOWEVER such well made full plate was usually only available to the very rich.

 

Either way both chainmail and plate were indeed heavy (around 50 or so pounds depending on materials and thickness) and fighting in such tended to overheat soldiers after a short time (unless it was winter).

[ChancellorKremlin]

Depends on the era, too.

 

Roman mail, lorica hamata, was originally made with 6mm iron links, punched and riveted (not butted) and with shoulder doublings, could weigh anywhere from 12 to 16 kilos. Without the doublings they could be as light as 9-10 kilos, and afforded significant more maneuverability when compared to laminata (plate) or squamata (scale).

 

On the other hand, Roman segmented plate, laminata (or segmentata, as it is often called) could be even lighter. Peter Connolly, who is an authority on the subject, posits it may have been as light as 8 or 9 Kilos: (From Bryn Mawr Classical Review 2004.02.49)

 

Lorica segmentata (the term is modern) was an articulated armour of iron plates and hoops. It is the armour most popularly associated with the Roman soldier. It is worn exclusively by citizen troops on Trajan's Column, distinguishing them from auxiliaries who wear ring mail or scale armour. It is also well known from its depiction on the base of the Column of Antoninus Pius. However, the use of lorica segmentata was never as total as these monuments would suggest: ring mail was the most common armour in the Roman world for all categories of troops.

 

A cuirass of lorica segmentata offered substantial protection, particularly to the shoulders and upper back, but terminated at the hips, leaving the abdomen and upper legs exposed. A padded garment (subarmilis -- as in "under the arma"), sometimes with pteruges to give limited protection to the upper arms, abdomen and thighs, was necessarily worn beneath in order to absorb the force of blows and to protect the wearer from the chafing of the plates and the leather harness to which they were riveted. Peter Connolly's reconstructions suggest the armour weighed 9 kg (20 lbs), considerably lighter than coats of ring mail (lorica hamata), which could weigh up to 16 kg (33 lbs).

 

I can't comment on Medieval mail because its outside my area of expertise, and iron-making and crafting techniques had changed significantly since then, both for better and worse in some cases.

[gregathit]

Exactly, with the padding and armor things get hot rather quickly.  "Breathable" materials were not available back then. 

 

Now of course the Roman armor not protecting the legs was not much of an issue as those area's were covered by their shields.

[windpl]

I don't know why is necessary to even discuss the topic "realism" when talking about fantasy games. Magic, Alchemy, Undead, Supernatural forces and fantastic creatures are realist? Female armor of the lack thereof should be the least of concerns.

In order to make a "realist" game, all the combat protagonists should be male (Anybody recall female batallions from the middle ages?), full suits of armor should be as rare as diamonds and there should be no preternatural help like spells and potions that cure in an instant. Women in such games must be displayed as helpers, domestics or even trophies in the worst cases, just like their counterparts were generally in those times. Do you like that? I certainly not.

I sincerely find the issue with female armor and outfits to be void of any significance.

 

Do you wonder why fantasy settings at last follow basic laws as physics? Maybe to make game immersive?

[gregathit]

Do you wonder why fantasy settings at last follow basic laws as physics? Maybe to make game immersive?

 

 

Ummmmmmm...............They do?

 

Dragons flying?  There is a reason that we have never discovered bones of anything remotely like them in size\weight and that would be physics and gravity.  So dragons right there blow that out of the water. 

 

Magic......another deal breaker right there that has no basis on physics or any other "real" world science.

 

Together we could think of thousands of such examples.

 

Bottom line, DSFL nailed it right on the head.  Fantasy is fantasy and real is real.  Arguing otherwise is just a waste of time and energy. 

 

Immersion is merely an opinion and varies from person to person.  Some think boob plate is just fine for immersion.  In their fantasy world women (and perhaps even men) run around in chainmail bikinis (and\or chainmail speedos). 

Others think differently.  The beauty of modding is that both folks can have what they want.

[windpl]

Then why you swim in water rather walk on it? Or why you even walk if you could float? Or why do you need to breath under water in this silly fantasy games? Andy why would you need legs or other body parts.  I wonder.

[gregathit]

Then why you swim in water rather walk on it? Or why you even walk if you could float? Or why do you need to breath under water in this silly fantasy games? Andy why would you need legs or other body parts.  I wonder.

 

I am not saying that there is no physics or gravity involved. I "AM" saying that SOB (suspension of belief) is something you will often find in games or fantasy.

 

Vampires and werewolves are more examples of non-reality.

 

Besides, Oblivion's vanilla game comes with both a water walking spell and a water breath spell.  See what I mean? 

 

Games blur the lines between fantasy and reality and it is up to each person to determine how much of both fantasy and reality they like in their games.  If you want hardcore reality, then you need to target games that cater to such or learn to mod.  The same can be true if you like very little reality and mostly fantasy.

 

Each person has their own level of SOB and it is not practical to judge folks as opinions are neither right or wrong.

[windpl]

Ok, but most of SOB thing are unnatural even for fantasy settings, for example not all people are mages or you can walk on water in obivion but you use magic to do that, or werewolf's or dragons are seen as unnatural. What I mean is that every fantasy settings draw hard line where normal things are those that work on rules of real world, and fantasy settings. So if you ask me, bob armour question is valid here, unless it is "magic"

 

If fantasy setting is unattached from real world it makes it less attractive. Unless there is explanation or codex for it.

Or let put it like that, if something is against common sense, there should be explanation for it - for example magic.

 

So if boob armour really cripple the fighter then there is expectation of explaining why she is wearing it or why it is not crippling her as it should.

 

If there was no such expectation then authors of books weren't so thorough with describing unnatural phenomena in their books. Some books already set the standards so now almost everyone know what elfs are and how they look like, same is case with magic but it source varies witch author.

 

Then saying it is just a fantasy, and denying such reflexion is a bit misplaced.

[Hobobob]

"The rules of the real world" are used in most cases beacuse they are expected, not beacuse they are real. Why does damn near every fantasy game use the gold piece as a unit of currency? Beacuse WE put value on it and it becomes valuable because of that. Why are humans interfertile with Elves or Orcs? Because we find them attractive or because writers want to explore particular themes. Interfertility requires far more SOB than revealing armour, yet most people accept it because they are conditioned to see it as normal. Why are weapons made if iron and steel? Because it's believed that it would strain the imagination of people if it wasn't and it requires more work by the creator.

It's a byproduct of pop-culture, like the belief that western fantasy has always been "realistic" or that the Celts were a bunch of hairy savages.

 

The main problem with the idea of realism in rpgs/wargames is the abstract nature of the rules. In most cases the rules strive for some form of balance and not realism. A man wears armour and therefore is protected. If you fight something capable of destroying walls it doesn't break your neck when it hits you in the face, because you are armoured. You can run up to a mage and deliver repeated attacks without your enemy dying because it's required by the rules of the game. Ranged attacks do the same, they have the advantage of range so typically are weaker. Blunt weapons work better against skellingtons when edged weapons will do the same. It's all unrealistic.

 

World design should be about balance, you must maintain consistancy in a setting in order to maintain beliveability. If your leading lady has an armoured bikini, your leading man better have an armoured codpiece, it should be the norm. If a male wears a functional armour then it should still be functional on a woman, not turn into a backless minidress with acres of sideboob and cleavage like that stupid fucking ancient Nord armour in Skyrim.

Those same things extend to writing and animation. Do not have a "professional soldier" walking like posturing teen or treating their weapons like toys. Do not have "intelligent" people acting like fuckwits because it's needed to empower the player. Do not make someone say something really, really dumb in an effort to trick the player into believing that there is a deep political situation. The aim should be to maintain realism of THAT world, not realism of OUR world.

 

As for boob plate armour in particular, i have seen an example of Celtic armour built for a woman, it had boob holders (yeah, not bloody great saucepans, but still).

 

What we KNOW is not always what IS and sometimes what IS happens to be beyond what we ACCEPT.

[DFSL]

 If a male wears a functional armour then it should still be functional on a woman, not turn into a backless minidress with acres of sideboob and cleavage like that stupid fucking ancient Nord armour in Skyrim.

 

That's your opinion. I find that particular female armor to be grossly overcovering. It should consist only of a leather G-string and 6-inch platforms, giving more protection than a full body suit.

Stop searching for realism in fantasy settings, people. Just imagine how exhilarating would be fighting the same foe for twenty minutes, knowing the next blow could be the last, being unable to use potions or magic to heal yourself in any way, the sweat and blood setting on your body in a slippery mess, your heartbeat pounding with each breath while your stamina erodes... You'll have to think very carefully before assaulting more than a single enemy at the same time, least you receive an arrow in the neck (The only necessary) after being distracted.

[Jexsam]

World design should be about balance, you must maintain consistancy in a setting in order to maintain beliveability. If your leading lady has an armoured bikini, your leading man better have an armoured codpiece, it should be the norm. If a male wears a functional armour then it should still be functional on a woman, not turn into a backless minidress with acres of sideboob and cleavage like that stupid fucking ancient Nord armour in Skyrim.

That's wrong.

 

Consistency is about being unchanging over a period of time. "All armors should be this way because they are on one thing" is not consistency, it's your opinion. Consistency is "all armors should be this way". If all males wear thick covering plate and all females wear chainmail bikinis, that's consistent. In both cases, there is a discernible pattern that would suggest that yes, this is indeed normal and expected for this setting; that's what's called consistency. You not liking it does not mean it is not consistent.

 

That said, speaking strictly of vanilla Skyrim, yes, the Ancient Nord Armor is somewhat aberrant, inconsistent with the other generally much more covering armors. This is of course easily remedied, one way or the other, with mods.

[Someone92]

I don't get why realistic armor cannot look cool?! The armor Alice wore in the recent Alice in Wonderland movie looked nice; there are more movies with females in (somewhat) realistic armor and look badass.

 

Regarding games I like what Guild Wars 1 pulled of regarding fighter armors; back at the time when look and values of armors weren't detached the +energy armor was skimpy for males and females (more so for females, though) while armor that gave +armor usually covered the entire body. Sure most of the female warrior's armors fell into the category of the ominous "boob plate armor" and some plate armors had even a cleavage (WTF?!) but at least the look of the armor somewhat corresponded to its game mechanic values. Sure, some of the squishy profession's armors were hardly more than swimwear but they had practically an armor value of 0 so I guess that's okay.

[Uno]

Realism, fantasy, 2d, 3d, iron, steel, paper, whatever. Industry sell sex and I like it.

[ChancellorKremlin]

Realism, fantasy, 2d, 3d, iron, steel, paper, whatever. Industry sell sex and I like it.

 

I don't know what's going on with your Pikachu's face, but it just made a very good point.

[Duoleb The Chosen]

regarding boobplate, i dont care either, the only thing that bugs me to this point(since skyrim its low fantasy compared to oblivion and morrowind)

 

are the exagerrated skimpy Heavy armors in most releases, maybe its my roleplaying nerve that elevates my rage to this level

 

boobplates are fine, only if they are really made to look like a boobplated armor

[jbezorg]

Any 1v1 foot fight would end bad for full plate wearer.

 

Not really.

 

http://www.royalarmouries.org/visit-us/leeds/leeds-galleries/tournament-gallery/henry-viii/foot-combat-armour

The armour gave superb protection but had two great problems: firstly, it weighs 42.6 kg (94lb) about twice as much as normal armour for war (emphasis mine). Secondly, the wearer would quickly over-heat when competing in this armour. However, it was only intended to be worn for very short periods.

 

"A Renaissance-era full suit of plate armour would have consisted of a helmet, a gorget (or bevor), pauldrons (or spaulders), couters, vambraces, gauntlets, a cuirass (back and breastplate) with a fauld, tassets and a culet, a mail skirt, cuisses, poleyns, greaves, and sabatons. A complete suit of plate armour made from well-tempered steel would weigh around 20 kg (44 pounds)." ~ James, Lawrence (2003). Warrior Race: A History of the British at War. St. Martin's Press. p. 119. ISBN 0-312-30737-3. 

 

Regarding woman warriors. I find this interesting.

 

Rani Lakshmibai

 

Rani of Jhansi Regiment

 

 

Regarding boob shape and "Science".

 

Campanian (Italian) bronze breastplate

 

Those ridges and channels and fake pectoral muscles would have have the same issue as the "boob" problem. So would the elaborate Tokugawa armour and Lion armour. Some of the Maximilian Armors make boobs in breast plates and chain-mail bikinis look pretty tame. So they wouldn't add boobs "because of Science!"? The man is talking out of his ass.

 

Some other stuff you may find interesting.

 

http://www.royalarmouries.org/assets-uploaded/documents/making_armour_web.pdf 

 

Light field armour of Sir John Smythe

[windpl]

There is difference between ceremonial armour and combat right?

Lets don't fight common sense here.

[jbezorg]

There is difference between ceremonial armour and combat right?

Lets don't fight common sense here.

 

One thing I was addressing was the comment "Any 1v1 foot fight would end bad for full plate wearer." That's just not true. There was a continued progression of how-to-cover-a-body-in-steel-better until the gun made it a liability. Even then, there were still people wearing plate armor in World War I.

 

I was also showing the other end of the spectrum with the elaborate armors. There is also the Field armour of Sir John Smythe ( that I edited out and didn't put back in in my previous post ). Comparatively kinda plain but for actual combat armor, pretty elaborate. There was overlap between utilitarian and decorative.

 

Going back to the original argument about boobs in armor. If women were historically more involved in combat as they are in fantasy settings, I'd argue that we'd see as many boobs in plate as we've seen these.

 

 

 

You could put an eye out with that thing.

 

 

 

[YumiChan19]

if i wanted reality i wouldn't be playing fantasy RPG's lol I mean if this was reality then you would only be able to play as a male because most of the time women were not allowed to be warriors back in medieval times, there are certain exceptions but as a rule women were not soldiers back then (main exception being the Scandinavians)

[Astaroth-Lite]

My god this thread is a broken record; I think we can let it die now.

[gregathit]

My god this thread is a broken record; I think we can let it die now.

 

[Guest]

Every game has an aspect of fiction in it so screw that.

[windpl]