Realism vs. Cool: Blog criticizes "Boob Plate Armor"

[Galacticat42]

 

 

 

 

I saw that a while ago - pretty funny.

 

 

This. This is a woman's armor.

[gregathit]

Wait....what??????   Where is the pretty pink ribbon!!!  :lol:

[Jexsam]

 

This. This is a woman's armor.

Y'know, that really isn't too terribly different from anything you see in Elder Scrolls, barring the rare oddball like Ancient Nord Armor or the Egyptian dress from Daggerfall. Aside from boob plates, TES armors for women have a long and storied history of being pretty effective at covering most critical skin area. Skyrim's only grievous examples of skimp are the aforementioned Ancient Nord and two of the four base fur armors. Oblivion had the Arena outfits and Morrowind had the Domina armor. Really, Daggerfall was the only one that was really bad about skimpy armors and outfits, but aside from a few armors mostly limited to NPCs, it was ll handled well within the context of the world.

 

Any trouble people have with skimpy and/or sexy armor in Elder Scrolls games comes almost entirely from the modding community that puts it there, rather than the games themselves. Not that anyone was really saying otherwise. All I'm saying is, any move to remove boob plates for the sake of immersion is, ironically, counter to the games' established canon, and logically is just as lore-breaking as, say, intentionally humanized and sex-ified elves, regardless of whether or not de-boobed armor is actually more realistic.

[Cherrypop]

Too easy, if people complain about booby armor.

Tell them that is historical facts that men fought in nude on battlefields, easiest example is the celtic warriors.

http://man2manalliance.org/hero/keltoi.html
http://www.ancientmilitary.com/celtic-warriors.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nudity_in_combat
http://historum.com/ancient-history/10414-why-did-celts-fight-naked.html

With enough research, You'll find almost anything xD

As for me, I'll pick whatever I feel like wearing. Both fantasy and realistic armor.

And this isn't even mentioning how superior Bethseda armor is to real life armor, I can jump high in them, they protect me from being frozen, they protect you from hits much more powerful than a human powered slash or stab such as a dragon's bite or giant's club swing and magical arts. If we had the armor in skyrim, we'll be wandering in a hail of bullets and laughing at the helpless shooters.

Thus, I don't care in the end. If it appeals to me, I wear it. After all, fighting in the nude is already realistic enough. Okay, I kinda wanna start a playthrough where I play as a naked warrior on skyrim I blame the guys who whined about realistim. xD

Plus armor like this is quite cool looking, no?
 

 

Uhhh, where's the spoiler option for this forum? I can't find it.

 

Ah well, gonna just provide a link for time being until I find where the spoiler is.

 

http://tinypic.com/r/2q9ey4g/5

 

I like that style. Damn cool it is.

[leddis3]

if i wanted reality i wouldn't be playing fantasy RPG's lol I mean if this was reality then you would only be able to play as a male because most of the time women were not allowed to be warriors back in medieval times, there are certain exceptions but as a rule women were not soldiers back then (main exception being the Scandinavians)

 

Well that's the reality of our history, not TES or any other fiction set on another world.

In TES, clearly women have been accepted as soldiers and warriors, though aren't to prevalent in the Imperial Legion due to laziness some reason or other.

I guess I don't understand why people in general think that the exact circumstances that led to our medieval era would always lead to the equivalent on whole other worlds. So it doesn't affect my suspension of disbelief.

 

As for the armour itself, maybe I don't understand the intricacies of armour but I don't think it that outlandish that a woman, if fully accepted as a female warrior, would have some plate custom made to be more form fitting. I've seen some real suits of armour that are terribly.. frilly for want of a better word. Granted, mostly for Kings and nobility who wanted to show off.

 

Probably already been saidm but it's funny how nobody complains about magic powers, dimensional portals, elves, wizards and time travel for making a medieval setting unrealistic, I'm pretty sure our medieval era had none of those either.

[Koko.Hekmatyar]

This horse must be glue by now 

 

Long story short you can't have your cake and eat it as well. You have to choose ONE either you wan't absolute realism which will make the game boring as fuck or you want fantasy that makes the game exciting because it add things that you would never encounter in the real would.

[gregathit]

This horse must be glue by now 

 

Long story short you can't have your cake and eat it as well. You have to choose ONE either you wan't absolute realism which will make the game boring as fuck or you want fantasy that makes the game exciting because it add things that you would never encounter in the real would.

 

Actually you can both have your cake and eat it.  You just have to learn to mod.  Problem solved.  Side benefits include saving money on other hobbies as modding can consume every single moment of your free time.  Negative points are loss of hair (from pulling it out when the last 6 hours of your work was lost due to the CS crashing and you forgot to make periodic saves, loss of any life outside of modding.....but then who really needs a life outside of modding.....seriously........

[wanzer]

Because killing antagonists in video games is such a realistic way of solving problems in real life too, right?

 

 

....right?

[Astaroth-Lite]

There are days where I feel like it might solve my problems even though I know it would just cause bigger problems.

[leddis3]

Because killing antagonists in video games is such a realistic way of solving problems in real life too, right?

 

 

....right?

 

It depends.

Often the problem lies in the fact that, say, you kill Bin Laden but his evil lair doesn't self-destruct and the Taliban don't disband until the sequel Bin Laden 2: Revenge of Zombie Bin Laden.

[Astaroth-Lite]

I'd watch it.

[jonas_opines]

Wouldn't he be called "Ozombie" Bin Laden?

[Captain Cobra]

Because killing antagonists in video games is such a realistic way of solving problems in real life too, right?

 

 

....right?

 

Who said anything about killing?

 

Why not go non-lethal?

[Phygnos]

I don't read those "internet feminist" blogs.

I'll just say that the fantasy genre has been this way for decades and should not be forced to change due to a minority of recent converts that enjoy it so much they want to keep changing it.

 

And "realistically" there's no glory in being a medieval foot soldier. If you managed to loot some decent armor on the battlefield (which is the only a non-noble would ever have decent equipment), it becomes your toilet because it's so arduous to put it on.

If you lose the battle your entire family will be raped or killed as your town is taken over or burned to the ground.

But if you win, you just might have a decent life until your wife dies from complications from child birth.

 

Also heavy armor is notoriously difficult to use. It takes tremendous strength and endurance to use it. It's fantasy for women to be able to utilize such gear.

[leddis3]

Erm, actually it's not. Some women are perfectly capable of donning heavy medieval style armour in reenactments and such and wearing it effectively and yes they weight as much as the real thing would've

[Phygnos]

Erm, actually it's not. Some women are perfectly capable of donning heavy medieval style armour in reenactments and such and wearing it effectively and yes they weight as much as the real thing would've

 

I suppose that could be possible, although the armor for calvary could be as heavy as a woman so I have my doubts.

However, those suits were often worn for days at a time while traveling great distances on foot through various weather conditions. If it wasn't worn, it was carried along with supplies. And military campaigns weren't often settled in days, but rather weeks and months.

In WW2, Germany famously lost many soldiers just traveling towards the USSR. One of Hitler's more famous military blunders.

 

This isn't about "realism".

[Astaroth-Lite]

It's like I keep saying; no, it's not about realism, it's about plausibility.

[Myst42]

So... realistic protection-offering medieval heavy armors, v/s skimpy non-covering totally unprotective dental floss armor...

I see them both can look good...

So why not both?

And if I cant have both...

Why not Zoidberg?

[jonas_opines]

Yes, now Zoidberg is the popular one!

[Erinaea]

That blogger left out the fact that Celtic tribes had the women fighting wearing nothing but body paint (if that). Would she rather that be implemented in games? We want to be realistic, after all.

 

She was essentially speculating as well based on one piece of armor found in Skyrim. Rounded breast regions wouldn't dig into your chest if you fell upon it or act as a "spear"(I am still uncertain how she concluded that based upon the picture armor provided). What about wearing chainmail underneath your armor as was generally the practice in the medieval period (to my knowledge)? Has that suddenly disappeared? Wouldn't that protect from one's armor digging into one's chest to a relatively decent degree?

 

Possible caving in of the chest area would happen if it were a man wearing the armor too, as the sword used weren't the tiny little rapiers that blogger seems to think they were. The were generally pretty damn heavy. 

 

 

[leddis3]

Generally one would wear padded clothing underneath armour called gambesons to both help with the weight and prevent chafing.

 

As for the weapon digging into the upper chest, most vanilla skyrim armours, while form fitting, have a pretty thick plate visibly bulging from the area between the breasts. This isn't as much of a problem as some make out even if we were to adhere to some "this must be 100% realistic" ideal.

 

As an aside:

 

 

 

 

 

Looking at this male armour, I'm pretty sure you could get a sword caught between those ornaments on the chest and that huge collar and drive it right through.

What's that, this is fantasy armour made by elves? No shit!

[BlitAceRush]

Think I'll attempt to wade into this a little bit.

I'm not going to talk about chain bikini's vs full plate, or weather or not boob armour would be a hindrance or helpful, nor will I jump in on the SOB debate, because that's all down to each of us as a person, also.. well that dead horse...

 

However what I will attempt to do is throw in my two cents on the issue of armour in fantasy, and a little bit about Realism vs Plausibility in fantasy.

Now ignoring trying to draw parallels between our world and a made up one, I'll try to focus just on Skyrim.

Women are accepted warriors, mages and fighters here, more so we're dealing with weapon play, magic and alchemy, as well as supernatural forces and monsters.

 

To this end another point we have to ask ourselves is, just what is this armour designed to protect against? 

Yes full plate will help you against other people, it may even aid you against animals and some monsters. (dependent on what ones) 

However I don't care how much plate you wear, if a dragon picks you up, puts you in his mouth and chews, no amount of personal armour will save you.

Also if he breaths fire on you, all your armour will accomplish is in turning you into a portable oven snack for the Dragon.

The only way armour is saving you from that is if we're talking power armour, but I bet even Tony Stark wouldn't want to climb into a dragon's mouth to find out, but we're talking normal armour so lets keep with that.

 

Unlike in our world, fantasy armour has to deal with more than just the human element, and that's where 'magic' comes into play.

Why doesn't my archer freeze to death when I'm hit with a -50c ice ray? because my chest piece is enchanted with "100% resist frost" 

That's the only real way to explain away how I can live through being punted into a wall by a giant, trampled by a Monmouth or flame grilled by a dragon, is by throwing in enchantments, because if we're saying. "This armour is so bad and ruins my SOB because the cleavage window would let a well placed arrow or sword kill her dead." Then there is no way the same girl could live through any of the 1000 things she'd have to fight in Skyrim, even in a set of full plate.

 

If your saying one well placed arrow will kill her, then there is no way she could live through a dragon attack, any of his moves would spell her doom, so her armour would be meaningless, the only way she could surive a hit is if you bring 'magic' and 'enchantments' back into play.

However the moment you do there goes your realism. 

 

If the only way my girl can live through a dragon attack is to load up on 'Resist Fire' 'Reduce Physical Damage' 'Resist Knockback' and spells than can help her deflect/absorb the fatal blows, then and here comes the plausibility part. 

Why can't she just wear a losses fitting outfit?

If all the 'protection' is coming from her enchantments, then really the armour is only there to hold said enchantments, she can wear whatever she wants/find comfortable, even a chainmail bikini if she's so inclined, her clothing just becomes about what she can move best in, or how she wants to look.

Hell she could go out their naked if she wanted and just wear a lot of enchanted rings and necklaces. 

 

The way I see it, if we're going by the logic that a single well placed arrow to the chest, or a sword to the neck will kill our characters, then there's no way they could live through anything a dragon, giant or fireball hurling mage could throw at us.

We'd have to rely on our enchantments to keep us alive and that means our armour becomes pointless, and in the cause of full plate, you'd be slowing yourself down for no good reason.

 

If you want plausibility then there you have it, in a world where swords and arrows are the least of your worries, and the only way to survive through a dragon attack is to deck yourself out in several different enchantments.

Then if you want to stroll around in a grey robe and pointy hat, of show off some cleavage in your boob-plate with an exposed midriff, go for it, after all armour is literally just preference at this point, it'll be your enchantments that keep you alive.

[gregathit]

snip

 

Wow!  Good Job!  That was the most logical, sensible, intelligent and well organized argument this entire thread has seen.  I am very impressed.

 

Unfortunately, logic and reason seem to lost in the shuffle these days.......

[The DarkSlayer]

 

 

Think I'll attempt to wade into this a little bit.

I'm not going to talk about chain bikini's vs full plate, or weather or not boob armour would be a hindrance or helpful, nor will I jump in on the SOB debate, because that's all down to each of us as a person, also.. well that dead horse...

 

However what I will attempt to do is throw in my two cents on the issue of armour in fantasy, and a little bit about Realism vs Plausibility in fantasy.

Now ignoring trying to draw parallels between our world and a made up one, I'll try to focus just on Skyrim.

Women are accepted warriors, mages and fighters here, more so we're dealing with weapon play, magic and alchemy, as well as supernatural forces and monsters.

 

To this end another point we have to ask ourselves is, just what is this armour designed to protect against? 

Yes full plate will help you against other people, it may even aid you against animals and some monsters. (dependent on what ones) 

However I don't care how much plate you wear, if a dragon picks you up, puts you in his mouth and chews, no amount of personal armour will save you.

Also if he breaths fire on you, all your armour will accomplish is in turning you into a portable oven snack for the Dragon.

The only way armour is saving you from that is if we're talking power armour, but I bet even Tony Stark wouldn't want to climb into a dragon's mouth to find out, but we're talking normal armour so lets keep with that.

 

Unlike in our world, fantasy armour has to deal with more than just the human element, and that's where 'magic' comes into play.

Why doesn't my archer freeze to death when I'm hit with a -50c ice ray? because my chest piece is enchanted with "100% resist frost" 

That's the only real way to explain away how I can live through being punted into a wall by a giant, trampled by a Monmouth or flame grilled by a dragon, is by throwing in enchantments, because if we're saying. "This armour is so bad and ruins my SOB because the cleavage window would let a well placed arrow or sword kill her dead." Then there is no way the same girl could live through any of the 1000 things she'd have to fight in Skyrim, even in a set of full plate.

 

If your saying one well placed arrow will kill her, then there is no way she could live through a dragon attack, any of his moves would spell her doom, so her armour would be meaningless, the only way she could surive a hit is if you bring 'magic' and 'enchantments' back into play.

However the moment you do there goes your realism. 

 

If the only way my girl can live through a dragon attack is to load up on 'Resist Fire' 'Reduce Physical Damage' 'Resist Knockback' and spells than can help her deflect/absorb the fatal blows, then and here comes the plausibility part. 

Why can't she just wear a losses fitting outfit?

If all the 'protection' is coming from her enchantments, then really the armour is only there to hold said enchantments, she can wear whatever she wants/find comfortable, even a chainmail bikini if she's so inclined, her clothing just becomes about what she can move best in, or how she wants to look.

Hell she could go out their naked if she wanted and just wear a lot of enchanted rings and necklaces. 

 

The way I see it, if we're going by the logic that a single well placed arrow to the chest, or a sword to the neck will kill our characters, then there's no way they could live through anything a dragon, giant or fireball hurling mage could throw at us.

We'd have to rely on our enchantments to keep us alive and that means our armour becomes pointless, and in the cause of full plate, you'd be slowing yourself down for no good reason.

 

If you want plausibility then there you have it, in a world where swords and arrows are the least of your worries, and the only way to survive through a dragon attack is to deck yourself out in several different enchantments.

Then if you want to stroll around in a grey robe and pointy hat, of show off some cleavage in your boob-plate with an exposed midriff, go for it, after all armour is literally just preference at this point, it'll be your enchantments that keep you alive.

 

 

 

 

[windpl]

And where is logic in that? It is just make it to believe.