toys Toys&Love LE & SE

[gregaaz]

@VirginMarie, OK good news, I played through all of Toy Story using the compacted and ESL-flagged master file and it worked fine. No unexpected behaviors noticed. Two totally unrelated feedback items, BTW:

 

1. I hadn't noticed it before but the Curio plug has a very nice mesh. Good work!

2. There is some very minor clipping with devices worn under fur armor. However, it's super minor and it isn't immersion breaking, at least in my opinion. The BHUNP bodyslide seems to be doing a good job keeping the toys close enough to the body that they don't explode out, and what minor escapes do happen can probably be handwaved with the lore about the toys becoming intangible.

 

 

[Herowynne]

38 minutes ago, gregaaz said:

OK, let's try this again but with more evidence. I'm going to actually address the two issues in reverse order

 

That was a great write up! I agree with all your technical points.

[gregaaz]

1 hour ago, Xuvish said:

Looks good.  Gonna try it out.

 

How do we know what content mods use the toys framework if we are a new end user?

 

Would it be possible to provide links to those mods in the main page?

 

When you say new game, do you mean to start over at level 1, or just a clean save game where you never used any of this mod?

 

 

I believe right now it's just the Toy Story demo that's packaged with the framework beta. Shout Like a Virgin for TOYS is expected late this month early next month, so that'll probably be the first major release for TOYS.

 

I can't speak for anyone else, but my recommendation is that if you have any mods that have soft dependencies on other mods (Frostfall, Simple Slavery, Devious Cursed Loot, Sexlab Survival, etc. etc. etc.) then you should always create a new character when you add a new mod with the sole exception of cases where you are only adding plugins to the very end of your load order... and even then I recommend a new character.

 

You can often get away with the clean save method, but you're rolling the dice with your character when you do so. These days, I keep a list of mods I plan to incorporate but only add them to my main mod list when I'm between characters. 

[VirginMarie]

3 hours ago, gregaaz said:

It's somewhat outdated... we've learned a lot over the last 2 years and the tools are better. I'll make a proper response once I'm out of the shower

So wait, you are typing this in the shower?   *giggles*

 

2 hours ago, gregaaz said:

All the warnings about SEQ files, facegen, etc., are irrelevant if you as the publisher are compacting the form IDs before you release the mod

Oh yes, shit, right!! This is a good point.

 

2 hours ago, gregaaz said:

This is exactly the same as ESL flagging an ESP file, and just like an ESL-flagged ESP there is nothing that prevents an ESL-flagged ESM being a master to another file (except perhaps in the creation kit... and then you just need to remove the ESL flag before you load it up for editing. Something I expect you'll do anyway since you're maintaining two code branches and I'm guessing the LE version is the "main" branch)

 

I do understand the flagged for esl part, not renaming it to esl, and how that tricks skyrim into continuing to treat it as a master. It was the compacting where I was struggling to feel safe about.

 

I'm maintaining two ESMs. So each time I edit in the CK I'm switching it to ESP, loading it in the LE CK. Doing all edits there. Then loading it in the SE CK, just saving it, and then they both get flagged/renamed back to being ESM. I use Wyre Bash to easily "copy to ESP / copy to ESM". There may not be any reason to to flag for ESL during dev, till final testing/releasing?

 

As for code base, no, I'm using a single code base. No branches. When something needs to be different for SE, its "If SE - do thing - Else - do LE way".

 

2 hours ago, gregaaz said:

OK good news, I played through all of Toy Story using the compacted and ESL-flagged master file and it worked fine. No unexpected behaviors noticed.

Thank you so very much for all your detail, and testing it out. I feel confident now, that I can both compact, and ESL flag. As discussed before, I wont do for Toy Story though as its about to become much larger and exceed the requirement. I don't want to giveth, then taketh away.

 

2 hours ago, gregaaz said:

I hadn't noticed it before but the Curio plug has a very nice mesh. Good work!

That's @audhol's work. Almost all the "Insignia Set" is from his work, and he even does animations, and spanks me if I'm bratty.

 

2 hours ago, gregaaz said:

There is some very minor clipping with devices worn under fur armor. However, it's super minor and it isn't immersion breaking, at least in my opinion. The BHUNP bodyslide seems to be doing a good job keeping the toys close enough to the body that they don't explode out, and what minor escapes do happen can probably be handwaved with the lore about the toys becoming intangible.

Audhol also does the majority of bodyslide work. 

On the list for V1, there's the item to make a sort of very simple "device hider". But method/approach is undecided, not researched, and lower priority than most things.

 

2 hours ago, Herowynne said:

That was a great write up! I agree with all your technical points.

I'm glad for this feedback too, helps with my confidence on doing it.

[VirginMarie]

2 hours ago, gregaaz said:

I believe right now it's just the Toy Story demo that's packaged with the framework beta. Shout Like a Virgin for TOYS is expected late this month early next month, so that'll probably be the first major release for TOYS.

 

4 hours ago, Xuvish said:

Looks good.  Gonna try it out.

 

How do we know what content mods use the toys framework if we are a new end user?

 

Would it be possible to provide links to those mods in the main page?

Gregaaz has it right above. It's early days, but I do know of a few authors working on content mods for Toys. One of them will do keys and toys in dungeon chests.

 

Toys actually does a lot on its own. If you use additemmenu to acquire toys to equip, you can see everything in action without a content mod. You can get keys that way too, and/or remove toys using Toys MCM last tab, debug features.

 

Once Toys V1 is live, I will probably start a post linked from the main page, that lists the known content mods.

 

Quote

When you say new game, do you mean to start over at level 1, or just a clean save game where you never used any of this mod?

I always answer in the same way as Gregaaz on this point too. I sum it up in what I call the Golden Rule

[gregaaz]

51 minutes ago, VirginMarie said:

I'm maintaining two ESMs. So each time I edit in the CK I'm switching it to ESP, loading it in the LE CK. Doing all edits there. Then loading it in the SE CK, just saving it, and then they both get flagged/renamed back to being ESM. I use Wyre Bash to easily "copy to ESP / copy to ESM". There may not be any reason to to flag for ESL during dev, till final testing/releasing?

 

As for code base, no, I'm using a single code base. No branches. When something needs to be different for SE, its "If SE - do thing - Else - do LE way".

 

 

Correct, I recommend compacting the main code branch so that both sides continue to share the same form IDs, but the ESL flag itself is not required for dev. That would be something to activate during final prep for publication.

 

Glad I could help!

 

PS: LOL yeah in retrospect that first message looks a little odd. I was checking notifications on my phone {outside the shower} while I waited for the water to heat up ? 

[Xuvish]

36 minutes ago, VirginMarie said:

Quote

When you say new game, do you mean to start over at level 1, or just a clean save game where you never used any of this mod?

I always answer in the same way as Gregaaz on this point too. I sum it up in what I call the Golden Rule

 

 

Starting at level 1 may with Deviously Cursed Loots initial Chloe quest and the Bound in Skyrim quest line.  (yes, I do know you can skip)

 

Does this mod replace items already equipped?

 

If yes, is there an option in MCM to pause mod?

[VirginMarie]

21 minutes ago, Xuvish said:

Does this mod replace items already equipped?

 

 How can I contribute during Beta?   has info on using with DD

 

21 minutes ago, Xuvish said:

If yes, is there an option in MCM to pause mod?

Its a no, and hence no reason for a pause button, at least have not found a reason yet.

[Aki K]

This mod is fun and really cool.

 

My only concerns are- I can't disable certain features. I can reduce the odds of transforming gear but can't turn it off.

 

Every orgasm turns of tgm if I have it on.

 

Nothing seems to activate the crawl feature. Which devises do that? Or is that still WIP?

[VirginMarie]

1 hour ago, Aki K said:

This mod is fun and really cool.

 

My only concerns are- I can't disable certain features. I can reduce the odds of transforming gear but can't turn it off.

Here's the thinking behind that...

An Event like Spontaneous orgasm, is not specific to any toy. Its triggered by arousal which is influenced by many toys and even other mods. So You can turn it off (chance goes from 0 to 100).

 

An Effect like Transforming is a choice a mod author makes. They choose to put effects on toys. So Toys gives optionality to the user for effects, but never the option to just turn it completely off. We want to give the mod author that control such that the toy behaves as their quest intends.

 

So lets take the example of your transforming toy. If a mod makes its own clone of that toy, or you use the supplied toy that is the exotic variant, then you wont be turning off the effects. BUT.... the basic version of that toy, wont have that effect. If you've found a toy that comes only in the exotic flavor, then that's just me being lazy, not creating the basic variant yet. The plan is that all toys will have both a basic and a exotic by the time we get to V1 release.

 

1 hour ago, Aki K said:

Every orgasm turns of tgm if I have it on.

I don't know what tgm means

 

1 hour ago, Aki K said:

Nothing seems to activate the crawl feature. Which devises do that? Or is that still WIP?

Its a complete feature. The Pony Tail, and one of the collars, have the Crawling Effect. The pony tail is an example of where I need to make the basic (no effect) version.

 

If you want to see the effects on a Toy, you can use the MCM Worn Toys tab, then click on the toy to see the detail view. Everything about that toy is displayed. Also the main effect of a toy will be part of the Toy's description, unless I missed one.

[Tlam99]

Flagging an esm esl is not a good idea.

It is seen as bug, as it the only case, where an esp can break the load.txt and forced

to be loaded before an esm in the esm group without notice.

It might work for you, but not for others with tweaked setups.

[VirginMarie]

25 minutes ago, T-lam said:

Flagging an esm esl is not a good idea.

It is seen as bug, as it the only case, where an esp can break the load.txt and forced

to be loaded before an esm in the esm group without notice.

It might work for you, but not for others with tweaked setups.

 

Can you elaborate? I'm not sure what you mean, but learning about this as we speak.

 

Not sure if you use vortex, but this pic is what it looks like with a minimal load order. The Star is for Master, the Feather icon is for "Light". Note that the filename is still Toys.ESM, not esl. And there are no warnings from Vortex. There would be a warning if it were not converted to form 44. It's ending up sorted as the last esm loaded, which makes sense since none above depends on it, and Loot has very little data on Toys so far. Its also ending up on the top of the list for the "lights".

 

Perhaps you can help us test it when Beta 2 comes out. It will be compacted for both LE and SE, ESL flagged (but not filename renamed), and form 44 for SE. I figure if gong to do this at all, now's the time to do it, during beta. Let's find out!

[Aki K]

57 minutes ago, VirginMarie said:

 

 

I don't know what tgm means

 

Its a complete feature. The Pony Tail, and one of the collars, have the Crawling Effect. The pony tail is an example of where I need to make the basic (no effect) version.

 

If you want to see the effects on a Toy, you can use the MCM Worn Toys tab, then click on the toy to see the detail view. Everything about that toy is displayed. Also the main effect of a toy will be part of the Toy's description, unless I missed one.

tgm=toggle god mode.

 

Ok. Going to test the crawl feature next chance I get.

 

For some reason one of the items doesn't appear when equipped. One of the heel items just makes my feet invisible. I made sure I built everything in bodyslide.

[VirginMarie]

2 minutes ago, Aki K said:

tgm=toggle god mode.

 

Ah ok you are saying Toys, scenes turn off the god mode. Yes that would be correct. I'm using the term scenes because this would include Spontaneous Orgasm, Exhausted, and Toy Story's Standing Stone scene. Basically all scenes where the player controls are locked until it ends, or you press spacebar to end it.

 

This is because Toys uses the god mode during the scenes, so you cannot be harmed during them. It turns it on, then turns it off. I wonder if that should be optional in the MCM. I had not considered it because god mode is a cheat code, not a normally used Skyrim feature. Perhaps a good reason to turn it off, is that some people might actually like the danger.

[Aki K]

Just now, VirginMarie said:

 

Ah ok you are saying Toys, scenes turn off the god mode. Yes that would be correct. I'm using the term scenes because this would include Spontaneous Orgasm, Exhausted, and Toy Story's Standing Stone scene. Basically all scenes where the player controls are locked until it ends, or you press spacebar to end it.

 

This is because Toys uses the god mode during the scenes, so you cannot be harmed during them. It turns it on, then turns it off. I wonder if that should be optional in the MCM. I had not considered it because god mode is a cheat code, not a normally used Skyrim feature. Perhaps a good reason to turn it off, is that some people might actually like the danger.

Agreed on both ends. For one, I typically play with tgm because it allows certain powers to be used without recharge (even if the powers are supposed to have no recharge at all, without tgm there is always a few seconds delay.)

 

But another reason to make it an option is that some mods allow the character to take physical damage to their model (bruises and cuts) and having god mode on for those scenes might interfere with it.

 

In addition your mod seems to also extend to orgasms from regular devious devices as well, so using God mode then requires me to not have your mod installed at all or to somehow not orgasm, or to regularly turn godmode back on and hope i don't forget lol.

 

 

But I leave it to your discretion. While i may make comments, I am a firm believer in mod authors doing what they please with their own mods.

[Tlam99]

1 hour ago, VirginMarie said:

Can you elaborate? I'm not sure what you mean, but learning about this as we speak.

talking about flagging an esm file.

do not flag an esm as esl.

This is considered as bug doing so.

leave it as esm. 

Actually, if someone makes an esp as master of this mod, what can happen, then this esp would load always before the esm

and you could not even see it in loadorder. It is an engine bug.

So the common rule or agreement is, never flag an esm as esl, because this is the only situation where an esp can load BEFORE an esm.

(even if loadorder shows it different)

Can cause nasty bugs.

[Herowynne]

1 hour ago, T-lam said:

So the common rule or agreement is, never flag an esm as esl, because this is the only situation where an esp can load BEFORE an esm.

(even if loadorder shows it different)

Can cause nasty bugs.

 

I have not heard that before. Can you provide a link to some reference saying that?

[gregaaz]

1 hour ago, T-lam said:

talking about flagging an esm file.

do not flag an esm as esl.

This is considered as bug doing so.

leave it as esm. 

Actually, if someone makes an esp as master of this mod, what can happen, then this esp would load always before the esm

and you could not even see it in loadorder. It is an engine bug.

So the common rule or agreement is, never flag an esm as esl, because this is the only situation where an esp can load BEFORE an esm.

(even if loadorder shows it different)

Can cause nasty bugs.

 

I have so many questions....

 

• Considered a bug by whom? Bethesda? 
• What bugs is this known to cause?
• Which modding groups or organizations have reached an agreement or made a rule to not use this feature?

 

Also, am I correctly understanding that the failure mode here would only occur if an end user deliberately went into an editor and added an ESP as a master?

[Tlam99]

it's from xedit team, I will look for a source.

 

here a link

 

https://tes5edit.github.io/docs/8-managing-mod-files.html#WhenitissafeornotsafetoaddtheESLFlag

 

here you see the part with esp loading before esm

 

https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/21618

 

 

 

 

[gregaaz]

32 minutes ago, T-lam said:

it's from xedit team, I will look for a source.

 

here a link

 

https://tes5edit.github.io/docs/8-managing-mod-files.html#WhenitissafeornotsafetoaddtheESLFlag

 

here you see the part with esp loading before esm

 

https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/21618

 

 

 

 

 

I don't see anything here about ESM files having bugs with an ESL flag, in fact I observe it says " Compacting a mod and adding the ESL flag that has not been released to the public is safe.". The CELL issues is well documented and I believe it actually affects any master file (even an ESM/ESL-flagged ESP file) in SSE. Toys contains no novel CELL/WRLD records so that's not relevant here.

 

It does sound like the pre-loaded ESP use case would only happen if a used deliberately went in and created that scenario. While it's an interesting quirk of the load order rules I don't think that's applicable to TOYS

 

I don't want to sound like I'm giving you the brush-off -- its important that this mod work right if SLAV, Toy Story, etc., are going to be successful -- but I'm not seeing anything here indicating either that ESL-flagging an ESM is associated with bugs, or that there's a consensus in the modding community to avoid the practice. I know from my own experience in using many ESL-flagged ESM files that I haven't encountered any problems with the practice, but I'm also aware that I may have just not encountered a major failure mod yet so I'm very interested in detailed technical information about any risks associated with the practice.

 

So if you have more data please definitely share, both for the benefit of the effort and also for my personal benefit.

[Tlam99]

https://steamcommunity.com/app/489830/discussions/0/3276824488728505237/

From steam

 

For your own setup I do not see a problem, but publishing is another world.

[gregaaz]

1 minute ago, T-lam said:

https://steamcommunity.com/app/489830/discussions/0/3276824488728505237/

From steam

 

For your own setup I do not see a problem, but publishing is another world.

 

Thanks, T-Lam, I'll review this in detail. 

[VirginMarie]

1 hour ago, T-lam said:

it's from xedit team, I will look for a source.

 

here a link

 

https://tes5edit.github.io/docs/8-managing-mod-files.html#WhenitissafeornotsafetoaddtheESLFlag

 

here you see the part with esp loading before esm

 

https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/21618

 

The first link was really helpful for my learning more about this. I read it top to bottom in excitement, but no, I'm not a nerd.  

The 2nd link was the first thing I found and read.

 

I think that Toys is well suited for the use case where I do the following...

• Dev in LE, maintain one code base, doing edits only in the LE CK or xEdit
• No code branching, instead it does IF SE... do thing... ELSE.. do LE thing
• I compact in SE, and use the resulting IDs in both SE and LE. This is before setting anything to form 44 or ESL, or loading it into the SE CK
• Then for SE only, I ESL flag (no file name extension change), and I set to form 44
• This all happens in parallel, so in other words the LE and SE are both getting tested right away, targeted testing for the change, and always releasing together

Why is Toys suited?

• As a framework, Toys is mostly about script. The contents of the ESM is mostly the toy armor parts, so its like a simple armor mod esp
• The ESM has less than 300 records, and it's unlikely to grow over 1000, due to the above. Even the toy armor parts will not grow much, because we will offer more toys via Toys Packs, so it might never even reach 500 (the toy pack will also be esl flagged and compacted)
• Toys has no released mods out in the wild, depending on it since its new. Now's the time to get the compacting done (and then maintain it)
• Toys will never use problematic cell records. Its not placing things in the world. There are also no NPCs. No voiced dialogue

Note that I'm not ESL flagging/compacting Toy Story. It's not suited because it will grow above the max records, and will use cell records etc, like a typical quest/content mod.

 

If there are problems, we will discover them during this beta phase. Maybe you will participate, it will be fun!

 

[Tlam99]

7 hours ago, VirginMarie said:

Why is Toys suited?

Your mod, your decision.

Flagging a framework master as esl,

I don't see any reason to do so. It might save one slot, but might cause unforseen issues on updating, patches etc.

Speaking of saving a slot, my current stable setup, no ctd for long time, can play hours without reloading.

This with 590 esp slots filled, most FE, still 5 full esp slots free, e.g. for masters without esl.

 

 

[gregaaz]

5 hours ago, leesjig said:

not playing nice with fnis sexy moves.  after an animation, walking animation, walking animation change.  it keeps resetting my pc walk back to the vanilla walk.  I hate the vanilla walk, so I keep having to go in to fnis sexy moves and setting it back to the sexy walk I want.  Sorry not better details.  Thanks for letting me try toys in se, and already set up for cbbe 3bbb, nice.

Interesting... sexy move is on my list of mods I'm considering for my setup so this is relevant to my interest. Can you tell me more about how it fails? Does it block sexy move 100% of the time or only after orgasm/ fondling? Does it block sexy move of NPCs?