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Shakx88

Devious Devices Escape Overhaul

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2 hours ago, tuxagent7 said:

I feel that the PC skills should have some impact in the escape equation like no skills = more difficult  great skills = easier

This is what I intend to do to some extent.

1 hour ago, boita said:

Will you consider escaping with magic, for pure mage characters ? Like unlocking with a high enough alteration or a chance to destroy with destruction while keeping something like a huge magicka exhaustion and maybe debuff for a little period

I will. I have some ideas for that.

52 minutes ago, Yukitemi said:

Is it possible to not block the camera movement when struggling?

I have not tested it, but I believe disabling movement via DisablePlayerControls also disables part of UI (including stamina bar). That's why I'm using another method. I will verify it and see if it's possible to disable movement without disabling UI via this option.

54 minutes ago, Yukitemi said:

Also it would be immersive to use minigame even if using a key, but a lot easier(or not so much in case of yoke for example)

This is something planned. I'm yet to chose and implement a proper minigame for that. I don't want to use the same minigame for all escape types.

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At last, an overhaul for the DD escape system.  I have waited so long for something to replace the labour intensive go to inventory/find item, click, then pick the option to escape system that DD currently still has. It's a major pain doing it that way. Will this work with 4.3?  DD5 has not fixed the bugs that affect my favourite restrants yet.

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22 minutes ago, jigwigigx said:

Will this work with 4.3?

Unfortunately, DD5 uses partially different API and adds new heavy restraint type. Making the mod work with DD4 would require keeping another version of it (or downgrading to DD4 entirely, which I don't consider to be a good option). I'm not certain whether that's something worth investing time into.

25 minutes ago, jigwigigx said:

DD5 has not fixed the bugs that affect my favourite restrants yet.

What kind of bugs do you mean? 

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0.2.0 is out. It is mostly a technical update, but I encourage updating anyway. It fixes a significant yet unnoticeable bug. Changelog:

Spoiler

 - Added: Devices with lock shield are now filtered and can't be escaped from with this mod.
 - Added: Struggling difficulty has been modified. DD's general escape difficulty now has only half as much impact on it. It is affected by the "base escape chance" of a device. It is lowered by one per 50 points of max HP. Stamina consumption has been increased. It is lowered by 1 per 50 points of max Stamina.
 - Added: Lockpicking difficulty has been modified. DD's general escape difficulty now has only half as much impact on it. It is affected by the "lockpick escape chance" of a device.
 - Added: Locks can get jammed after failed lockpicking attempts. No fixing yet.
 - Changed: Struggling minigame now uses configurable keys (W, A, S, D by default). Should be able to support gamepads.

 - Changed: Blindfold and mittens now have extra customization.
 - Fixed: Fixed faulty lockpicking prevention (probably).
 - Fixed: A "leak" of disabled copies of devices has been fixed.

 

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1 hour ago, Shakx88 said:

Unfortunately, DD5 uses partially different API and adds new heavy restraint type. Making the mod work with DD4 would require keeping another version of it (or downgrading to DD4 entirely, which I don't consider to be a good option). I'm not certain whether that's something worth investing time into.

What kind of bugs do you mean? 

My favourite restraints are the restrictive ones  and every time a new version of DD comes out there are usually issues with the belt and corset, if you're a cbbe user that is, I don't know if it happens with unp as well.  I waiting for a fix before I go back to version 5.

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Awesome i always wanted something like that. The randomness of DD escape "mechanics" was always a huge disappointment in my opinion. :)

The SSE conversion works very good so far... 🥳

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On 1/7/2021 at 3:38 PM, ahboojiga123 said:

(related but slightly off topic, feel free to ignore)

i recall seeing a conversation either in DD beta thread or DD5 thread, about the DD escape system

about "player" escaping device vs "character" escaping device

about how much player involvment is too much, and whether the escape should be RNG-based(influenced by character skill level) or player skill-based

 

what's your take on this question?

just for curiosity's sake

 

I remember that. Kimy wanted the escape system to be like DnD where the player got to choose a character's actions but the character's skill determined success/failure chances.  The player would choose which device to escape and the character would try and escape from it. 

 

The problem is that in DnD the player can make choices that affects the character's skills, while in Devious Devices the player has no means to alter the character's escape skill except through the MCM. A key part of any RPG is building up character skills over time to get better at doing certain things.  The reason mods like this are popular is because its the only way for a player to increase their character's escape chances without going through the MCM (which feels like cheating).

 

If Devious Devices gave players a way to train their character to get better at escaping I think most players would be happy.

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1 hour ago, SirCrazy said:

If Devious Devices gave players a way to train their character to get better at escaping I think most players would be happy.

There is, actually, but it is very insignificant. You can get up to 7% increase in chance to escape on the first try based purely on PC's skils and 1% for every previous attempt to escape this particular device until you succeed. 

  

1 hour ago, SirCrazy said:

escape system to be like DnD

The problem here is that DnD uses d20 and modifiers may be up to +5 coming from player (25/100 of max dice roll).

DD uses d100 (it's not even d100 though, it's a random float without any rounding). Player gets modifier of up to 7% (7/100 of max dice roll).

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I'm guessing the struggle, unlock and lockpick options should be not available if device is a quest item. To my understanding there's a zad quest keyword and block generic keyword, from which either would be "quest item". I'm assuming DCL's high security devices go with block generic.

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29 minutes ago, Zaflis said:

I'm guessing the struggle, unlock and lockpick options should be not available if device is a quest item. To my understanding there's a zad quest keyword and block generic keyword, from which either would be "quest item". I'm assuming DCL's high security devices go with block generic.

All non-generic devices are not supported by the mod. I've decided to follow the guidelines of the framework in this matter:

Quote

6. Items marked with zad_BlockGeneric should NOT be removed by third party mods via trivial means of escape (e.g. blacksmith dialogues) or without compelling reason. They can be removed -when necessary-, to be replaced with quest items (and these only!), or temporarily, if required to run a scene etc. In the latter case, the removing mod is expected to equip back the item after completing the scene.
7. Items tagged with zad_QuestItem mark essential items that are not to be removed for ANY reason by any content mod other than the mod that equipped them and the framework itself. Modders are asked to use this tag sparingly and only when warranted, as this might prevent other mods' quests or scenes from getting started. Live and let live!

 

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I might have found a bug. When setting the "Extra Lockpicking Dificulty" to 4 or higher. It wont start picking. it just sayes u need a key.

Thats fine, but after that the x button wont work anymore. Have tryed remapping. Disable the mod an activate. An lowered this setting back i 0.

Restart game doesent work either. Save and load also.

Load a previous save before the setting was made worked.

 

Would love to have a setting for struggle stamina loss.

And a setting to disable the tip on how the struggle works. So we dont have to press ok every time.

 

Great mod, love it

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12 minutes ago, harwester said:

I might have found a bug. When setting the "Extra Lockpicking Dificulty" to 4 or higher. It wont start picking. it just sayes u need a key.

I'm assuming you have set other things to increase difficulty as well? With extra lockpicking difficulty it is possible to push the lock's difficulty beyond 255, where Skyrim considers the lock to require a key. I shold limit in to prevent that from happening.

15 minutes ago, harwester said:

Thats fine, but after that the x button wont work anymore. Have tryed remapping. Disable the mod an activate. An lowered this setting back i 0.

This is because the button is blocked during the minigame. However, the minigame never properly exits in your case, so it is never unblocked.

16 minutes ago, harwester said:

Would love to have a setting for struggle stamina loss.

Is is based on DD's cooldown difficulty and the part of stamina you have lost during the minigame (note that the part is calculated as staminaAfterStruggling/staminaBeforeStruggling, not staminaAfterStruggling/maxStamina).

So you can control it by decreasing cooldown difficulty in DD.

 

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First of: I love your take on this, and I'm already impressed with the customizability for different devices and struggle options etc. Keep up the good work!

 

That said, it's not quite useable for me. When I run out of stamina while struggling, I just keep struggling (forever, it seems). Should it not abort the struggle?

 

Are you planning to add the struggle animations from Devious Lore eventually?

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5 minutes ago, Siudhne said:

Should it not abort the struggle?

It should and it usually does. I'm going to add logging in the next update, so I should be able to figure out what goes wrong in your case.

6 minutes ago, Siudhne said:

Are you planning to add the struggle animations from Devious Lore eventually?

I'm assuming you mean device-specific animations. This is a patch provided with Devious Lore and it is compatiable with every mod using DD's standard struggling animation system (which this mod does). You can use it even without Devious Lore.

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On 1/9/2021 at 10:41 AM, Shakx88 said:

There is, actually, but it is very insignificant. You can get up to 7% increase in chance to escape on the first try based purely on PC's skils and 1% for every previous attempt to escape this particular device until you succeed. 

 

To my thinking, that's sufficient.  It recognizes your previous successes without trivializing escaping.

 

Skyrim's combat (except for a few fixed weak creatures) scales with character level to maintain challenge and keep combat interesting.  Since devices don't scale, any system that significantly rewards past success (and with enough time, it's usually possible to escape most devious devices) will eventually spoil the experience by turning that "oh no" moment into "haha, I'll just slip this off and sell it".  Character lockpicking experience will generally be increasing too, so it doesn't seem like we need another system undermining the effectiveness of restraints.

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On 1/9/2021 at 6:41 PM, Shakx88 said:

There is, actually, but it is very insignificant. You can get up to 7% increase in chance to escape on the first try based purely on PC's skils and 1% for every previous attempt to escape this particular device until you succeed. 

  

The problem here is that DnD uses d20 and modifiers may be up to +5 coming from player (25/100 of max dice roll).

DD uses d100 (it's not even d100 though, it's a random float without any rounding). Player gets modifier of up to 7% (7/100 of max dice roll).

 

Maybe solution isn't to significantly increase chances of getting out with experience - but to provide side bonuses. Like, gettting enough experience with lockpicking can provide escape attempt not consuming lockpicks. Or even at very high level provide ability to lockpick restraint with zero lockpicks. Cutting device with enough experience can result in sometimes not destroying it. Having "wax key" perk and enough device experience can even result in providing keys 😃 Overall, I think that getting out of devices shouldn't be getting easier significantly with time - 7% looks enough. But it should "look" easier - that is, more rewarding. And there is an idea - getting devices from NPCs and followers - it can be made a reward. So, when player gets enough experience escaping from device, removing that device from NPC can be done effortlesly, and without keys. Actually, escape system for NPCs (as opposed to simply unlocking them) is a feature I'm most interested in 😃

On the same note - escape system for NPCs can be also set up with critical failure chance - moving restraint from NPC to player, or getting a copy 😃

 

Another idea of tying character skills to escape difficulty is all backwards - skills should make escape attempts harder. For example, high Two-Handed skill can lower chances for successfully struggling from armbinders, and so on. Setting a negatively impacting skill for every device keyword and escape type can result in interesting character building conundrums.

 

 

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0.3.0 is out. Changelog:

Spoiler

 - Added: Optional progress widget during struggling minigame (off by default)
 - Added: Lockpicking now applies exhaustion (if lockpicking exhaustion is enabled). Exhaustion is affected by lockpicking exhaustion magnitude and is applied for 0.5 game hours (By the way, all exhaustion durations are calculated in game hours and then converted to actual effect durations using timescale. So lower timescale means longer exhaustion effects).
 - Added: Lock fixing minigame. May require balancing.
 - Added: Added toggleable logging system.
 - Added: Toggle to disable tips about.
 - Added: Additional checks to block certain escape methods if devices are set to be inescapable via those methods.
 - Added: Added a toggle to bypass the mentioned checks. The mod will try to use other (less reliable) methods of performing sanity checks (like preventing lockpicking rope restraints).
 - Changed: Some changes to lockpicking difficulty evaluation.
 - Fixed: Added lower limits for difficulties to prevent them from going lower than 1. Added upper limit for lockpicking difficulty.
 - Fixed: Exiting lockpicking menu without breaking the lockpick won't be able to cause lock jamming.

Also, I want to elaborate on what "bypass devices' settings" exactly means.

From this update on if a device has its chance of escaping in a certain way set to 0 (e.g. rope restraints have chance of escaping via lockpicking set to 0), then the mod will prevent you from doing so. However, you may want to disagree with the way it is set in DD (e.g. I believe some armbinders in DDX are set to have lockpicking chance of 0). You can enable the new option "bypass devices' settings" and this new feature will stop working. Do note that I have added some sanity checks which can't be turned off (e.g. the mod will try to prevent you from lockpicking rope restraints). However, since DD doesn't provide any way to recognize what devices are made of and I want to do things in a generic way, these sanity checks may fail (or I may not have thought of some sanity checks). Btw, for now the only sanity check prevents you from lockpicking rope restraints.

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Cool! 🙂 Also thanks for the logging. However, it seems I can no longer reproduce the issue with 0.3.0 - now it stops as intended. Well, could be worse.

 

Whereas before with my bugged test it was almost impossible even though DD settings were on easiest difficulty - maybe part of the bug - I can now escape everything easily despite setting DD to highest difficulty/cd etc. settings and adding +10 difficulty. I got to admit my test character has quite some stamina (>300 with equipment), but would be nice to have a challenge nontheless, I don't want her to get off the hook too easily. 😉

 

With regards to the struggling debuff: In my experience, stamina (regen&max) is something that many mods touch and modify and it can be quite difficulty to get the balance right between 0 stamina regen and "can struggle virtually all the time". As a supplement/alternative to stamina regen, what do you think of preventing any further struggle attempts as long as the "struggling" debuff is active?

 

I also love the discussion about "player agency" vs "rpg aspects" that have been going on. Right now, we can agree, it is essentially random, and smashing ASDW makes little difference. What resonated the most with me was the idea to have a fixed sequence for a device, which you can discover while struggling. Say, I want to get out of that yoke, so the mod determines I need the sequence ASDSSAW in order to get out. That way, the first time you struggle, it's quite tough, you are randomly pressing buttons and losing a lot of stamina. However, if you have paid attention ("player agency" at work), the next time you struggle out this very device the sequence is still the same, thereby you can waste less stamina and have a higher chance to succeed.

If you want to be even more fancy, maybe shuffle x% of the sequence each time. That way, you are rewarded for memorization, but you are not guaranteed success after X tries.

 

Another idea to make the button smashing game more sophisticated would be to give it some inherent structure, like "increased chance that the last letter repeats" (say, 50% instead of 25% would suffice). That way, instead of just going ASDWASDWASDW you are rewarded for patience, checking each time if the device got more loose with the button you just pressed  (at least the text takes a short while to show up, it would probably be easier with the HUD), and then, on success, trying the same key again.

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17 hours ago, Siudhne said:

Whereas before with my bugged test it was almost impossible even though DD settings were on easiest difficulty - maybe part of the bug - I can now escape everything easily despite setting DD to highest difficulty/cd etc. settings and adding +10 difficulty. I got to admit my test character has quite some stamina (>300 with equipment), but would be nice to have a challenge nontheless, I don't want her to get off the hook too easily. 😉

By easy you mean short sequence or stamina depleting too slow? I'm guessing the second. Also, length of the sequence is decreased by 1 per 50 hp.

17 hours ago, Siudhne said:

With regards to the struggling debuff: In my experience, stamina (regen&max) is something that many mods touch and modify and it can be quite difficulty to get the balance right between 0 stamina regen and "can struggle virtually all the time". As a supplement/alternative to stamina regen, what do you think of preventing any further struggle attempts as long as the "struggling" debuff is active?

I intentionally made it different from DD because plain old timer doesn't make any sense to me. Exhausted? Well, you've got a bunch of stamina potions. That's what they are for.

I must also point out that my balance decisions are partially based on how I'd want the mod to feel in my playthrough, and I'm planning to use requiem. It's one of the reasons why I point out that the mod may feel unbalanced.
 

17 hours ago, Siudhne said:

That way, the first time you struggle, it's quite tough, you are randomly pressing buttons and losing a lot of stamina. However, if you have paid attention ("player agency" at work), the next time you struggle out this very device the sequence is still the same, thereby you can waste less stamina and have a higher chance to succeed.

If you want to be even more fancy, maybe shuffle x% of the sequence each time. That way, you are rewarded for memorization, but you are not guaranteed success after X tries.

It'd make escaping too trivial, not really something I want to be.

17 hours ago, Siudhne said:

like "increased chance that the last letter repeats" (say, 50% instead of 25% would suffice)

That would simplify things as well, I believe.

17 hours ago, Siudhne said:

(at least the text takes a short while to show up, it would probably be easier with the HUD)

You could enable progress widget. Not really much I can do with the text (apart from turning it into a message box).

 

17 hours ago, Siudhne said:

That way, instead of just going ASDWASDWASDW you are rewarded for patience

I have an idea how I can avoid this without simplifying things: if you press the button "opposite" to the one you have pressed last time to weaken the device, the device tightens back, decreasing you progress. (E.g. if you have just pressed A to weaken the device, pressing D would result in it tightening again).

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17 hours ago, nilead said:

Hopefully someone will eventually make an SE conversion for this.

 

On 1/12/2021 at 12:17 PM, NoppaiKohai said:

Anyone try this on SSE? Any issues?

I believe that SkyUI's and DD's APIs are same on SSE, so converting it should be as simple as opening and saving it in SSE's CK. Probably. Anyway, anyone is free to convert it if they wish.

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Really looking forward to this mod, thank you. I have been using Devious Lore for this very reason, I'll probably swap once you release a stable version (or when I get to impatient lol).

Keep up the good work, it's a niche that needed to be filled!

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