Devious Devices Escape Overhaul

[monsta88]

Hi there,

 

I found an issue in v0.6.1

 

I have 100+ Lockpicks. When I choose to open the DD on the follower by lockpicking, the Lockpick counter goes to 1. The counter stays on 1 after I successfully opened the lock. I should have the rest of the lockpicks as well.

 

Peace,

M

[Shakx88]

2 hours ago, monsta88 said:

Hi there,

 

I found an issue in v0.6.1

 

I have 100+ Lockpicks. When I choose to open the DD on the follower by lockpicking, the Lockpick counter goes to 1. The counter stays on 1 after I successfully opened the lock. I should have the rest of the lockpicks as well.

 

Peace,

M

Fixed.

[monsta88]

4 hours ago, Shakx88 said:

Fixed.

That was super fast, thank you!

[monsta88]

Hi there,

I am not sure if this is intended or not, but for me it seems to be an issue (v0.6.2)

 

I am in 3rd person.

I start an Open with key minigame.

The game switches to 1st person, so I can't see my character doing the related animations.

 

Earlier you mentioned something about changes to blindfold escape, so I'm assuming the game should stay in 3rd person.

 

Peace,

M

 

[ttpt]

13 hours ago, Shakx88 said:

Fixed.

 

seems to actually work better I can successfully break followers or myself, the only issue seems to be that as soon as I get one correct guess on the direction the device comes off, like the struggle bar doesn't seem to fill up, it just succeeds on the first correct guess. Straightjackets seem a bit finicky too, I can struggle out of them fine, but if I put them on a follower the choices for releasing the follower show up as both straightjacket and suit, and if I succeed in the minigame for releasing them, when I go take out the straighjacket from their inventory it is still locked on, this doesn't happen with other devices like collar for example.

[ttpt]

Fiddling further with this I was able to get the struggle bar to go up and down by raising the extra struggling difficulty in the debug section, so the mod seems to actually be working perfectly fine.

 

My initial impression probably had to do with my level or stats and just my failure to understand how the actual struggling mechanisms are calculated.

 

Straightjackets still seem a bit finnicky

[Shakx88]

9 hours ago, monsta88 said:

Hi there,

I am not sure if this is intended or not, but for me it seems to be an issue (v0.6.2)

 

I am in 3rd person.

I start an Open with key minigame.

The game switches to 1st person, so I can't see my character doing the related animations.

 

Earlier you mentioned something about changes to blindfold escape, so I'm assuming the game should stay in 3rd person.

 

Peace,

M

I haven't been able to confirm the issue. The script switches camera quickly into FP, then into TP, and it works fine during testing. I'm not sure what's causing it to fail in your case. I suppose I could add an option to disable this fix for those who play with leeches mode (because the fix I came up with is temporarily switching to leeches mode). 

4 hours ago, ttpt said:

seems to actually work better I can successfully break followers or myself, the only issue seems to be that as soon as I get one correct guess on the direction the device comes off, like the struggle bar doesn't seem to fill up, it just succeeds on the first correct guess.

It means that the script ends up with difficulty of one (which is 1 correctly guessed key). You should tweak difficulty settings (increase escape difficulty in DD, increase health weight).

4 hours ago, ttpt said:

Straightjackets seem a bit finicky too, I can struggle out of them fine, but if I put them on a follower the choices for releasing the follower show up as both straightjacket and suit, and if I succeed in the minigame for releasing them, when I go take out the straighjacket from their inventory it is still locked on, this doesn't happen with other devices like collar for example.

That's because straitjackets have both zad_DeviousStraitjacket and zad_DeviousSuit keywords. I will fix this duplication. However, I'm not sure why it fails to unlock the straitjacket. Could you provide logs?

[monsta88]

A QoL suggestion:

 

When I play a Lockpick minigame, I should have all my lockpicks, not just one. The minigame should end either when I successfully open the lock or jam the lock.

 

Currently when the lockpick breaks, it takes several steps to play the minigame again, which feels unnecessary.

 

Peace,

M

[Shakx88]

1 hour ago, monsta88 said:

A QoL suggestion:

 

When I play a Lockpick minigame, I should have all my lockpicks, not just one. The minigame should end either when I successfully open the lock or jam the lock.

 

Currently when the lockpick breaks, it takes several steps to play the minigame again, which feels unnecessary.

 

Peace,

M

This was already mentioned. There is no reliable way to track when a lockpick breaks. I was thinking about slightly changing the system, I will take a look into it and see how well it will work.

[ttpt]

4 hours ago, Shakx88 said:

It means that the script ends up with difficulty of one (which is 1 correctly guessed key). You should tweak difficulty settings (increase escape difficulty in DD, increase health weight).

That's because straitjackets have both zad_DeviousStraitjacket and zad_DeviousSuit keywords. I will fix this duplication. However, I'm not sure why it fails to unlock the straitjacket. Could you provide logs?

 

Yeah, I played around with the settings because it turns out that yeah, I have way too much health, Works perfectly fine and it's very configurable actually, so it's great.

 

I'll get a straightjacket and try to get you some logs later today, Not entirely too concerned about it since straightjackets are rare enough in my game, but you do fix stuff incredibly fast so there's that.

 

3 hours ago, monsta88 said:

A QoL suggestion:

 

When I play a Lockpick minigame, I should have all my lockpicks, not just one. The minigame should end either when I successfully open the lock or jam the lock.

 

Currently when the lockpick breaks, it takes several steps to play the minigame again, which feels unnecessary.

 

Peace,

M

 

While I understand that it's actually a big hassle to go in and out of the lockpicking minigame for every single lockpick you break, by following vanilla rules if you actually exit the minigame for a lock and then go back in it actually resets the sweetspot for lockpicking, Shakx88 has mentioned that this is a technical limitation, but in actual practice it does make the lockpicking minigame actually harder than it is on vanilla, since with a master lock you'll actually end up breaking quite a few locks before you even begin to discover the sweet spot.

 

So on the plus side it turns out it's not entirely unnecessary. Probably makes investing in the lockpicking perks actually useful.

[Zaflis]

How is the lockpicking jamming chance calculated? To me it seems to happen too often.

[Shakx88]

1 hour ago, Zaflis said:

How is the lockpicking jamming chance calculated? To me it seems to happen too often.

Each device sets its own chance.

Make sure you don't have 'guarantee lock jamming' set in debug tab.

[glaxofi01]

Hi guys can anyone explain what critical failure does, I tried to fail struggling many times but i don't see the restraints changing into something more secured. Is it limited to a specific device only?

[Shakx88]

5 hours ago, glaxofi01 said:

Hi guys can anyone explain what critical failure does, I tried to fail struggling many times but i don't see the restraints changing into something more secured. Is it limited to a specific device only?

It utilizes a feature which DD supposedly has. However, I doubt it's properly set for generic devices. Thus you don't see any difference.

[glaxofi01]

On 3/3/2021 at 1:58 PM, Shakx88 said:

It utilizes a feature which DD supposedly has. However, I doubt it's properly set for generic devices. Thus you don't see any difference.

Ohh, I have a suggestion.

 

This idea of mine was a bit inspired from a content of cursed loot features

 

I think this is good for the critical failure events of your mod.

 

For example,  when jamming a lock for a specific number of times from playing the "unlock with key" and "lock picking" mini game, it will trigger a critical failure. You can make a property script that can be imbued to the restraint device that will make it seems like the lock is unrepairable which will be inescapable unless you go to a blacksmith (based from the high security restraints provided by dcur)

 

Another good example is for struggling and magic escape mini game where when you meet a specific number of failure, the device you are trying to escape will become worse. So this basically refer to the tightening mechanics that you included in your mod but with a twist. Instead of following the dd framework on the tightened version of the device you are trying to escape, you will just create a hierarchy function of devices that you will arrange from easiest to inescapable. for example ropes < cuffs < harness < binders < yoke < straightjacket. If you failed in struggling or concentrating a spell to escape your predicament in a specific number of attempts, the demon that resides in the devious device you are escaping from may decide to morph or transform itself into a different and harder type of restraints to torment the dragonborn based from the hierarchy you made. so if you failed in struggling from a rope, it will transform into a cuff and so on until you reach the final device where you need a blacksmith to remove it. (based from dcur progressive bondage function)

 

[monsta88]

5 hours ago, glaxofi01 said:

This idea of mine was a bit inspired from a content of cursed loot features

I mean no offense, but I'd rather leave these features in dcur. I like that this mod focuses on escaping and not the opposite. 

 

I like the idea of the critical failure though, which ruins the lock and forces the player to get professional help.

 

5 hours ago, glaxofi01 said:

for example ropes < cuffs < harness < binders < yoke < straightjacket

 

I guess the list is very much dependent on what kind of escape you try to do. For example Straitjacket would be behind the Yoke if it is about destroying the device by force (cut it off). Also, I don't think you can ever struggle out of a Yoke. Even if you can somehow pull out the hands, you can't pull out your head. With Lockpicking Yoke may be behind Armbinders and Straitjacket, as with these you have like no chance to reach the lock and pick it. It would probably be extremly hard to do it with a Yoke too, even if you reach the lock, you need to lockpick it one handed, but maybe not impossible.

 

Btw, I'd rather not see the DDs mutate into something else. Even if shakx likes the idea, I hope there will be an MCM to disable it.

[glaxofi01]

2 hours ago, monsta88 said:

I mean no offense, but I'd rather leave these features in dcur. I like that this mod focuses on escaping and not the opposite. 

 

I like the idea of the critical failure though, which ruins the lock and forces the player to get professional help.

 

 

I guess the list is very much dependent on what kind of escape you try to do. For example Straitjacket would be behind the Yoke if it is about destroying the device by force (cut it off). Also, I don't think you can ever struggle out of a Yoke. Even if you can somehow pull out the hands, you can't pull out your head. With Lockpicking Yoke may be behind Armbinders and Straitjacket, as with these you have like no chance to reach the lock and pick it. It would probably be extremly hard to do it with a Yoke too, even if you reach the lock, you need to lockpick it one handed, but maybe not impossible.

 

Btw, I'd rather not see the DDs mutate into something else. Even if shakx likes the idea, I hope there will be an MCM to disable it.

You do have a point, my suggestion is indeed getting away from the purpose of this mod. 

How about this:   Let's ignore the hierarchy blah blah blah that I just mentioned. 

My second suggestion will be the same as the first part of my previous one. Similar to the unlocking with key and lockpicking where there will be a critical failure when you failed for a certain amount of attempts, why not let's also do the same to the struggling (and future magic escape). Regarding to the critical failure I mentioned where the lock will be broken to an unrepairable state, we can also apply the same principle to other escape modes.

For example, if you failed to struggle many times, instead of inserting the dd function of tightened device, you can just make another property function that makes the restraint inescapable and can only be freed from external help. This is similar to turning generic items into a quest item which somehow block any form of escape. But the additional challenge here is you can still play all the minigames despite each of their respective critical failure happening, but it will just make the outcome always a failure.

Example:

You got restrained -> you chose struggle -> you failed to escape -> notification of device tightening will display -> struggle again -> failed again -> notification will display something like "Due to the number of escape attempts you failed, the device seemed to be stuck to a point that escaping by yourself is beyond your reach" (but the struggle minigame will not vanish, it can still be played but the outcome will just guarantee failure and only other npc can help you escape)

 

You got restrained -> you have a key or lockpick -> you chose unlock with key or lockpick -> you failed the minigame -> the lock got jammed notification -> you play the repair minigame -> success -> the jammed lock is repaired -> you chose to lock pick or unlock with key again -> failed again (for example you failed for the 5th) -> notify that "the lock is damaged beyond repair and requires professional management" (lockpick and unlock key minigame is still available but it only guarantees broken lockpicks and keys)

/// alternatively if you failed during the lock repair minigame it will also lead to permanent damage to lock after specific amounts of failure attempts.

 

 

[monsta88]

22 hours ago, glaxofi01 said:

How about this

 

I would not tie the critical failure to the number of fails (although it is logical in case with lockpick attempts). I'd just say as the player sets up the higher difficulties in the MCM, the higher base chance is there for Critical failure. It even can be different for all minigames, for example we can say that it is easier to get critical failure with lockpicking than with struggling. But one base number is OK too,

 

During the minigame according to how the player is doing, the base chance may get bonuses. I don't know how this can be measured (if the player is doing well or not well) though, so this may be a bad idea.

 

Or maybe your idea has the answer here after all. Each failed attempt adds to the Base Critical Failure chance for the same restraint. For example:

Let's say there is a high security gag on the character, the Critical failure chance is 10%. The player fails a struggle minigame, but it was not a critical failure. She gets the Tired debuff and the Critical chance gets a +5% (again, just an example) bonus. So on the next attempt, if she fails, now she has 15% chance for critical failure. The other restraints still have only their base chance.

 

This brings more questions though: when can the player critically fail? Is it at the end of a failed minigame? Can she fail during the minigame? What can trigger a critical failure?

 

 

[glaxofi01]

22 hours ago, monsta88 said:

 

I would not tie the critical failure to the number of fails (although it is logical in case with lockpick attempts). I'd just say as the player sets up the higher difficulties in the MCM, the higher base chance is there for Critical failure. It even can be different for all minigames, for example we can say that it is easier to get critical failure with lockpicking than with struggling. But one base number is OK too,

 

During the minigame according to how the player is doing, the base chance may get bonuses. I don't know how this can be measured (if the player is doing well or not well) though, so this may be a bad idea.

 

Or maybe your idea has the answer here after all. Each failed attempt adds to the Base Critical Failure chance for the same restraint. For example:

Let's say there is a high security gag on the character, the Critical failure chance is 10%. The player fails a struggle minigame, but it was not a critical failure. She gets the Tired debuff and the Critical chance gets a +5% (again, just an example) bonus. So on the next attempt, if she fails, now she has 15% chance for critical failure. The other restraints still have only their base chance.

 

This brings more questions though: when can the player critically fail? Is it at the end of a failed minigame? Can she fail during the minigame? What can trigger a critical failure?

 

 

I like how your replies show a more optimized and efficient way to execute the ideas I have in mind, but the implementation and decision to put these ideas into realization still lies at the hand of Mr/Ms Shakx.  Anyway I enjoy this mod so far and my suggestion is only aims to contribute as an idea and I do not intend to force anyone to implement this.

[hungvipbcsok]

I really love this mod but may i suggest that could you make a perk tree via campfire, or simple a measure level up system (the more you escape the better you at escaping DD). 

[El_Duderino]

On 3/3/2021 at 6:58 AM, Shakx88 said:

On 3/3/2021 at 1:44 AM, glaxofi01 said:

Hi guys can anyone explain what critical failure does, I tried to fail struggling many times but i don't see the restraints changing into something more secured. Is it limited to a specific device only?

It utilizes a feature which DD supposedly has. However, I doubt it's properly set for generic devices. Thus you don't see any difference.

 

Hi, the CatastrophicFailureChance device property determines the chance that a failed escape attempt (lockpicking, struggling, cutting) will result in a harsher outcome than the default "nope, didn't work, try again". In other words, that this escape option will become disabled for future attempts (the pop-up message then mentions something like "your failed escape tightened this device making future attempts of struggling impossible". Technically, it sets the worn device's relevant escape chance to zero, which is also reflected when you use the DD device menu's "inspect device" function.

 

DD's default devices have this set very low or even zero by default. The difficulty slider probably also impacts it, so there's a good chance some might hardly ever witness this if they're not using harder than default difficulty settings in DD.

[Shakx88]

1 hour ago, El_Duderino said:

Hi, the CatastrophicFailureChance device property determines the chance that a failed escape attempt (lockpicking, struggling, cutting) will result in a harsher outcome than the default "nope, didn't work, try again". In other words, that this escape option will become disabled for future attempts (the pop-up message then mentions something like "your failed escape tightened this device making future attempts of struggling impossible". Technically, it sets the worn device's relevant escape chance to zero, which is also reflected when you use the DD device menu's "inspect device" function.

 

DD's default devices have this set very low or even zero by default. The difficulty slider probably also impacts it, so there's a good chance some might hardly ever witness this if they're not using harder than default difficulty settings in DD.

This mod's critical failure is not related to the DD's one. It is exclusive to struggling and is bound to the minigame (failing 3 times when struggling progress is at 0). When it occurs, it is supposed to replace the device with whatever is set in its OnTighten property (or whatever it's called). However, I doubt there are many (if any) generic devices with this property set in DD though.

[Shakx88]

3 hours ago, hungvipbcsok said:

I really love this mod but may i suggest that could you make a perk tree via campfire, or simple a measure level up system (the more you escape the better you at escaping DD). 

Maybe later. Currently I'm updating NPC interactions.

[El_Duderino]

7 hours ago, Shakx88 said:

This mod's critical failure is not related to the DD's one. It is exclusive to struggling and is bound to the minigame (failing 3 times when struggling progress is at 0). When it occurs, it is supposed to replace the device with whatever is set in its OnTighten property (or whatever it's called). However, I doubt there are many (if any) generic devices with this property set in DD though.

Ah, sorry for the confusion and mixing up "critical" vs. "catastrophic" failure. I must say that's a very clever idea you've come up with. You're right, that tighten device feature isn't being used "out of the box" by DD, which I guess makes sense. But DCL 9 for example has a few such devices and one can hope that more DD content mods will create their own over time -- and then your critical failure feature will start being truly devious!

[tekuusne]

I am monitoring this thread.jpg

 

This is interesting. I've kept Devious Lore around pretty much only for its escape system (well, also the Jailmasters to sell stuff to and buy keys from.) Just a simple escape mod that doesn't try to be anything else might be a good thing.

 

17 hours ago, Shakx88 said:

Maybe later. Currently I'm updating NPC interactions.

I'd suggest getting rid of the single "Okay" lines, unless they're necessary from a scripting standpoint.