Devious Devices Escape Overhaul

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, Shakx88 said:

 

I believe that SkyUI's and DD's APIs are same on SSE, so converting it should be as simple as opening and saving it in SSE's CK. Probably. Anyway, anyone is free to convert it if they wish.

It might not even need a conversion, form 43 eps are often fine (but I'm a total noob and still learning, so don't take my word for granted). I'll test later and report back!

[tuxagent7]

2 hours ago, Shakx88 said:

By easy you mean short sequence or stamina depleting too slow? I'm guessing the second. Also, length of the sequence is decreased by 1 per 50 hp.

 

My Pc has 300 hp so maybe that is why i only had one key sequence to slip out ?  Is there anyway that i can adjust the difficuly to say like length of sequence is decreased by 1 per 100 hp or something like that ?

 

I also found it too easy for the struggle part. One good key and slip out

[Shakx88]

16 minutes ago, tuxagent7 said:

My Pc has 300 hp so maybe that is why i only had one key sequence to slip out ?

That's quite possible. I will add sliders to make it configurable. In the meantime you can increase struggle difficulty using the "Extra struggling difficulty" setting.

[tuxagent7]

17 minutes ago, Shakx88 said:

That's quite possible. I will add sliders to make it configurable. In the meantime you can increase struggle difficulty using the "Extra struggling difficulty" setting.

 

Thanks !

[Shakx88]

0.3.1 is out. Changelog:

Spoiler

 - Added: 3 new difficulty settings: health weight, stamina weight, lockpicking weight. Changes impact of respective skills on escape difficulty.
 - Added: Device tightening during struggle (optional). When struggling out of a device, a random struggle key will be set to tighten device instead of simply using up stamina. When a device tightens, your escape progress decreases. If you happen to tighten the device, the key to weaken it won't change.
 - Added: Critical struggling failure (optional). If your progress is at zero and you happen to tighten the device, the device will be replaced by its tightened version (if there is one set. Not sure if any of the generic devices actually use this feature, but I've decided to add it anyway). Can't happen until you weaken the device at least once.
 - Changed: Moved extra lockpicking and struggling difficulty settings to debug tab.
 - Changed: Struggling now weakens the device, replacing it with a less tight version (if one is set. If not, then you just escape).
 - Fixed: Changing struggle keys during the minigame shouldn't break it.

 

[kaldwin]

Just have to say, I love the idea of multi-stage devices and replacing restraints with less tight versions.  feels like you actually have to work to struggle out of something.

 

I wasn't planning on trying out your mod until I started a new game when DD 5 and DCL 9 are out of beta, but the features are too good to ignore

[Shakx88]

11 minutes ago, kaldwin said:

Just have to say, I love the idea of multi-stage devices and replacing restraints with less tight versions.  feels like you actually have to work to struggle out of something.

It's not my idea. DD has this concept, but I'm not sure how many (if any) generic devices actually use it. I may look into linking devices in future.

[Siudhne]

5 hours ago, Shakx88 said:

By easy you mean short sequence or stamina depleting too slow? I'm guessing the second. Also, length of the sequence is decreased by 1 per 50 hp.

Correct, stamina depletion. I'm not saying it's too easy for everyone. But would be great if the "additional difficulty" slider could go higher than 10.

 

Quote

I intentionally made it different from DD because plain old timer doesn't make any sense to me. Exhausted? Well, you've got a bunch of stamina potions. That's what they are for.I must also point out that my balance decisions are partially based on how I'd want the mod to feel in my playthrough, and I'm planning to use requiem. It's one of the reasons why I point out that the mod may feel unbalanced.

Fair enough, guess that's a matter of taste. But of course it's your prerogative as a mod author to create the mod in a way that best aligns with your game. ?

 

Quote

It'd make escaping too trivial, not really something I want to be.

[...]

That would simplify things as well, I believe.

Sorry, I think you misunderstood me here. The ideas were not about changing the difficulty, but about giving the player some agency during the process. Of course, if everything else remains unchanged, the result is that they would make things a lot easier. Which they shouldn't be, so sequence length or stamina depletion need to be adjusted to compensate, so that it is roughly equally challenging as before.

 

Quote

I have an idea how I can avoid this without simplifying things: if you press the button "opposite" to the one you have pressed last time to weaken the device, the device tightens back, decreasing you progress. (E.g. if you have just pressed A to weaken the device, pressing D would result in it tightening again).

But if you know that, it is trivially easy to use a sequence that never presses opposite keys after each other, e.g. ASDW-ASDW-ASDW...

And if you didn't know that, it might as well be random.

[Shakx88]

4 minutes ago, Siudhne said:

But if you know that, it is trivially easy to use a sequence that never presses opposite keys after each other, e.g. ASDW-ASDW-ASDW...

And if you didn't know that, it might as well be random.

Yeah, I've realized that a bit after writing the post. I think I have a slightly better idea for rewarding the patience which I will implement in the next update.

 

8 minutes ago, Siudhne said:

Correct, stamina depletion. I'm not saying it's too easy for everyone. But would be great if the "additional difficulty" slider could go higher than 10.

Additional difficulty doesn't affect stamina depletion, only length of the sequence (plain +1 per level). I need to think of a scalable way to increase stamina consumption without making it extreme at low levels.

[HexBolt8]

Thank you for your continued work on this.

[Nymra]

could you do a version that has no pop up, no keygame no nothing at all?

Pop Up menu spam is really the one thing that keeps me from using DDs in my game since they are the definition of immersion and game breaking for me

 

I was thinking about a "one hotkey" solution for a long time now and I am writing this here because your descriptions started with the same thing (one hotkey ^^) 
which is at least a big improvement over the inventory opening...

 

I had the idea like this:

 

- Press hotkey

- System automatically decides which device will be adressed via an internal priority system (can be customized in the MCM maybe).

for example if wearing a yoke, the system will automatically choose the yoke (which seems logical too)

- plays suitable struggle animation

- system checks for keys and maybe lockpick skill -> determines escape chance per time unit 

-> you need to hold down the key for the period of time for the tick to complete (maybe by playing an audible sound)

-> system plays sexlab sounds (gagged if need be) while struggling

- each tick you have the calculated escape chance. Period

if you get free from the yoke, the next time you press the hotkey, the next device in the priority list will be selected automatically (at this point gags/blindfolds/plugs) seem the next obvious choices and so on

this way you will:

- never see a popup

- no need to enter or process any menu, inventory or anything else
- never have to select anything (you can preset if via MCM or external JSON file)
- you can watch your character struggle and moan for the duration of the "situation" 

- ideally you can also set the "tick" lenghts in the MCM/JSON and also the base difficulty for the whole thing, making all this more understandable for the user 

this could even be expanded to have two different hotkeys, both customizeable with different priorities or item lists (for example one key to struggle out of only gags, boots and plugs, which should both be theoretically possible even with a yoke on) 

I was exploring the possibility to script this myself but I am months if not years away from aquiriing the necessary skillz

So maybe you are interested in the concept and might pick it up. At least from what I perceive in the forums I am not the only one with that problem when it comes to DDs. 

[kaldwin]

Got a few suggestions for you after playing around with your mod.  

 

first off, lockpicking.  The unbreakable lockpick perk completely destroys any kind of balance you try to add, because it basically gives you the ability to get out of any generic restraint guaranteed.  I don't like unbreakable lockpicks, even in the vanilla game.  It makes the skeleton key (an actual magic lockpick) kind of pointless.  I suggest an optional file that changes that perk so that instead of picks being unbreakable, they're just more durable.  Or you could remove the perk entirely and just have the novice, apprentice, adept, ect perks add a bit of durability to picks, depending on how much time you want to invest in it.  (Or you could do nothing and I could just not take the perk.  That works too)

 

second, you need some kind of stamina scaling for for higher stamina players.  between combat mods, enchanted clothing, and high level, my character's got over 800 stamina.  Makes it so the only way I can fail to struggle out of a restraint is to have critical failure active.  maybe add an MCM option that lets you adjust how much stamina is lost each time you press a struggle key during the mini-game.  for example, set it to 5 and it takes 5 stamina per key on easy, 10 on medium, 15 on hard, ect.  you could also try using % of max stamina, or some combination of % and fixed.  like maybe easy takes 1%Max + 5 stamina, medium takes 1%Max + 10, ect.  That way it scales, but having higher stamina is still beneficial.

 

lastly, the struggling mini-game.  I haven't looked at the script, but if I'm understanding it right, the mini game works like this:

• 4 struggle keys 
• 1 adds progress, 2 do nothing, 1 removes progress (if critical failure active; otherwise does nothing)
• what each struggle key does resets after the right key (the one that adds progress) is picked

The problem with this is that when the critical failure is active, the chances of success vs. critical failure is basically 50/50 (given no limit to stamina).  Plus there's a 1/4 (ish) chance of failing outright if your unlucky enough to pick the key that reduces progress right off the bat.  So here's my suggestion:

• 4 struggle keys
• 1 adds progress, the other 3 remove a small amount of progress (like maybe 1/5-1/10 what the other one adds)
• struggle keys reset after picking the right key
• If the player picks the wrong key 3 times, a lot of progress is lost and the keys reset
• picking the wrong key when progress is at 0 does nothing (unless it's the 3 time)
• if, when picking the 3ed wrong key, it takes the progress bar below 0, critical failure occurs and the restraint replaced with it's tighter version
• the difficulty setting in the MCM (easy, medium, hard) could adjust how much progress is lost when hitting the wrong key)

 

you could also play around with adding more than 4 struggle key (maybe 8?).  In that case, I would suggest 1 key adds a lot of progress, and the remaining keys are some combination of:  does nothing, adds a little progress, and removes a little progress

[Shakx88]

12 hours ago, kaldwin said:

first off, lockpicking.  The unbreakable lockpick perk completely destroys any kind of balance you try to add, because it basically gives you the ability to get out of any generic restraint guaranteed.  I don't like unbreakable lockpicks, even in the vanilla game.  It makes the skeleton key (an actual magic lockpick) kind of pointless.  I suggest an optional file that changes that perk so that instead of picks being unbreakable, they're just more durable.  Or you could remove the perk entirely and just have the novice, apprentice, adept, ect perks add a bit of durability to picks, depending on how much time you want to invest in it.  (Or you could do nothing and I could just not take the perk.  That works too)

That would be a modification of the base game, something I want to avoid. My general idea when playing games is "play the way you like". If someone wants to use unbreakable lockpicks, then so be it.

 

12 hours ago, kaldwin said:

second, you need some kind of stamina scaling for for higher stamina players.  between combat mods, enchanted clothing, and high level, my character's got over 800 stamina.  Makes it so the only way I can fail to struggle out of a restraint is to have critical failure active.  maybe add an MCM option that lets you adjust how much stamina is lost each time you press a struggle key during the mini-game.  for example, set it to 5 and it takes 5 stamina per key on easy, 10 on medium, 15 on hard, ect.  you could also try using % of max stamina, or some combination of % and fixed.  like maybe easy takes 1%Max + 5 stamina, medium takes 1%Max + 10, ect.  That way it scales, but having higher stamina is still beneficial.

Yeah, I've realized as much. I was thinking about draining % of stamina based on difficulty. This is definitely a solution. And the way it would work, the more stamina you have, the less part of it you will lose, but still a part, now a raw value.

12 hours ago, kaldwin said:

Plus there's a 1/4 (ish) chance of failing outright if your unlucky enough to pick the key that reduces progress right off the bat.

This can't happen. I may not have explained this feature right, but until you pick the key to increase progress at least once, a critical failure can't happen.

12 hours ago, kaldwin said:

• 4 struggle keys
• 1 adds progress, the other 3 remove a small amount of progress (like maybe 1/5-1/10 what the other one adds)
• struggle keys reset after picking the right key
• If the player picks the wrong key 3 times, a lot of progress is lost and the keys reset
• picking the wrong key when progress is at 0 does nothing (unless it's the 3 time)
• if, when picking the 3ed wrong key, it takes the progress bar below 0, critical failure occurs and the restraint replaced with it's tighter version
• the difficulty setting in the MCM (easy, medium, hard) could adjust how much progress is lost when hitting the wrong key)

This is an interesting concept, I will consider how I can tie it in with my other ideas.

 

12 hours ago, kaldwin said:

you could also play around with adding more than 4 struggle key (maybe 8?).

I believe there is no way to prevent key bindings from overlapping or to temporarily disable other key bindings. So adding more buttons is not the best idea.

[Shakx88]

15 hours ago, Nymra said:

So maybe you are interested in the concept and might pick it up. At least from what I perceive in the forums I am not the only one with that problem when it comes to DDs. 

This is not really difficult to implement (apart from a massive MCM script to put priorities into it). However, it is different from what I'm trying to achieve with this mod. I could try to explain how to do it if you know your way around CK and papyrus.

[HexBolt8]

5 hours ago, Shakx88 said:

That would be a modification of the base game, something I want to avoid. My general idea when playing games is "play the way you like". If someone wants to use unbreakable lockpicks, then so be it.

 

I think that's the right approach.  If a player chooses an unbreakable lockpick perk, a mod shouldn't undo it. 

 

5 hours ago, Shakx88 said:

Yeah, I've realized as much. I was thinking about draining % of stamina based on difficulty. This is definitely a solution. And the way it would work, the more stamina you have, the less part of it you will lose, but still a part, now a raw value.

 

Instead of draining stamina, you might drain a flat 100 point effort pool.  Rate of drain would be based on difficulty, the character's lockpicking, stamina, and health, modified by the MCM weightings for those factors.  High stamina would always help, by reducing drain rate, but it would only be a factor and the player could tune in down as much as desired.

[kaldwin]

7 hours ago, HexBolt8 said:

Instead of draining stamina, you might drain a flat 100 point effort pool.  Rate of drain would be based on difficulty, the character's lockpicking, stamina, and health, modified by the MCM weightings for those factors.  High stamina would always help, by reducing drain rate, but it would only be a factor and the player could tune in down as much as desired.

That would definitely simplify scripting and testing.  Downside is you'd need to add a new UI element to display your effort pool, so it might end up being more work in the long run.  Also, I think Shakx mentioned in one of the comments that they don't know how to do UI elements yet, so there's that.

[Shakx88]

9 hours ago, kaldwin said:

That would definitely simplify scripting and testing.

It wouldn't simplify scripting by any means, because in the long run I would have to add support for NPCs in some way.

 

17 hours ago, HexBolt8 said:

Instead of draining stamina, you might drain a flat 100 point effort pool.  Rate of drain would be based on difficulty, the character's lockpicking, stamina, and health, modified by the MCM weightings for those factors.  High stamina would always help, by reducing drain rate, but it would only be a factor and the player could tune in down as much as desired.

I think stamina represents how tired you are quite well. And working with stamina allows the mod to at least affect your gameplay to some extent.

Also, I want stamina potions to allow you to go beyond your limits at the cost of exhaustion. Implementing this for a separate pool would be a bit complicated and not very compatible with other mods. 

[HexBolt8]

6 hours ago, Shakx88 said:

I want stamina potions to allow you to go beyond your limits at the cost of exhaustion.

 

Good point about stamina potions.  I like that.

[Shakx88]

0.3.3 is out. Changelog:

Spoiler

 - Added: New feature during struggling. When you fail to weaken a device, there is a chance that you will realize whether your action was 'the worst move' (2 buttons off) or 'not the best move' (1 button off). The chance is based on the new setting 'Magicka weight'.
 - Changed: Struggling and repairing now drains a percentage of stamina instead of a raw value.
 - Changed: Reworked struggling minigame. One key weakens the device, the other three tighten it (optional). Subsequent 'misses' cause stronger progress decrease. Successfully weakening a device expends less stamina.
 - Fixed/Changed: Struggling and repairing games now keeps track of how much stamina you have actually used up (so if you recover some while struggling, it will affect exhaustion).

 

[Siudhne]

On 1/17/2021 at 1:41 PM, Shakx88 said:

0.3.3 is out. Changelog:

  Reveal hidden contents

 - Added: New feature during struggling. When you fail to weaken a device, there is a chance that you will realize whether your action was 'the worst move' (2 buttons off) or 'not the best move' (1 button off). The chance is based on the new setting 'Magicka weight'.
 - Changed: Struggling and repairing now drains a percentage of stamina instead of a raw value.
 - Changed: Reworked struggling minigame. One key weakens the device, the other three tighten it (optional). Subsequent 'misses' cause stronger progress decrease. Successfully weakening a device expends less stamina.
 - Fixed/Changed: Struggling and repairing games now keeps track of how much stamina you have actually used up (so if you recover some while struggling, it will affect exhaustion).

 

Percentage stamina drain, I like it. ?

[Shakx88]

0.4.0 is out. Changelog:

Spoiler

 - Added: Unlocking minigame. May require balancing.
 - Added: Hints now should display keys based on your key bindings.
 - Added: A fallback update mechanism.
 - Fixed/Added: If a device doesn't have a key set and "Bypass devices' settings" is on, default (restraints) keys will be used.
 - Fixed/Changed: Unlocking a device now requires as much keys as it specifies, not just one.
 - Fixed: Repairing minigame now keeps track of expended stamina properly.

Note: Due to an internal change, struggling key bindings will be reset.

[tuxagent7]

With default settings

 

When i try to struggle out of a device, my stamina deplete only when i weaken the device and not when i press other keys

 

The reworked struggling with device tightening works great with stamina depleting

 

Is this normal ? Thanks

[Shakx88]

18 hours ago, tuxagent7 said:

With default settings

 

When i try to struggle out of a device, my stamina deplete only when i weaken the device and not when i press other keys

 

The reworked struggling with device tightening works great with stamina depleting

 

Is this normal ? Thanks

Fixed.

[tuxagent7]

12 hours ago, Shakx88 said:

Fixed.

 

Thank you !

[itami_no_hana]

I have noticed that changing escape key gets reset back to X when loading a save.