The Ancient Profession 2024-06-24

[kamithemoon]

25 minutes ago, killer905 said:

Bandits and forsworn have the same votes as any ordinary NPC in the city.

Hrm, I'm not sure then.  I do tend to mess with the script a bit to target specific voices so I might have changed something at some point.  It might be interesting to see what new/redundant voices are that I am picking up and you're not.  But it would be better to not have redundant voices at all, I think =D.

[killer905]

20 minutes ago, kamithemoon said:

Hrm, I'm not sure then.  I do tend to mess with the script a bit to target specific voices so I might have changed something at some point.  It might be interesting to see what new/redundant voices are that I am picking up and you're not.  But it would be better to not have redundant voices at all, I think =D.

The best idea would be to remove the female dialogues where they completely don't occur. e.g. in the 4 quests in Temple of DIbellian, and then prune those female dialogues that don't occur in others e.g. Hamal generates her dialogues for 4 types of female voices ;/ . But this would take a lot of time. 

[kamithemoon]

13 hours ago, killer905 said:

The best idea would be to remove the female dialogues where they completely don't occur. e.g. in the 4 quests in Temple of DIbellian, and then prune those female dialogues that don't occur in others e.g. Hamal generates her dialogues for 4 types of female voices ;/ . But this would take a lot of time. 

I've done this and I can shave off a few 1000 lines of dialogue bloat this way.  But I'm not intimately familiar with the quests and it's not easy to figure out who's supposed to have the dialogue.  For the master of the order of the Lily, for example, I have no idea who that is.  Using xedit, a lot of things like this require going 1 level deeper into the quest and looking at aliases.  That's usually not too bad.  But in a lot of scenes, it's 2 levels deeper, to find out the associated quest, then the associated speakers and that's damn difficult to do (for me, anyways).

But hopefully the creationkit works much better as it should know which npcs are currently in which faction and in what scenes and such.

[killer905]

2 hours ago, kamithemoon said:

I've done this and I can shave off a few 1000 lines of dialogue bloat this way.  But I'm not intimately familiar with the quests and it's not easy to figure out who's supposed to have the dialogue.  For the master of the order of the Lily, for example, I have no idea who that is.  Using xedit, a lot of things like this require going 1 level deeper into the quest and looking at aliases.  That's usually not too bad.  But in a lot of scenes, it's 2 levels deeper, to find out the associated quest, then the associated speakers and that's damn difficult to do (for me, anyways).

But hopefully the creationkit works much better as it should know which npcs are currently in which faction and in what scenes and such.

Correction I meant ‘male’ but typed female. But later with female is entered correctly

Creation Kit you can search for a specific text also in my opinion it will be easier.

[ruddycray]

5 hours ago, kamithemoon said:

I've done this and I can shave off a few 1000 lines of dialogue bloat this way.  But I'm not intimately familiar with the quests and it's not easy to figure out who's supposed to have the dialogue.  For the master of the order of the Lily, for example, I have no idea who that is.  Using xedit, a lot of things like this require going 1 level deeper into the quest and looking at aliases.  That's usually not too bad.  But in a lot of scenes, it's 2 levels deeper, to find out the associated quest, then the associated speakers and that's damn difficult to do (for me, anyways).

But hopefully the creationkit works much better as it should know which npcs are currently in which faction and in what scenes and such.

 

Just so you know, I am working on looking at what the Creation Kit exports and haven't forgotten about this. It's not going to be as simple as just dumping the file and sending it to you, because I can see in the export that some of the lines come up as being available for deer and wolf voice types, for example, which is obviously wrong. But I still might be able to do something with this.

[ruddycray]

20 hours ago, killer905 said:

The best idea would be to remove the female dialogues where they completely don't occur. e.g. in the 4 quests in Temple of DIbellian, and then prune those female dialogues that don't occur in others e.g. Hamal generates her dialogues for 4 types of female voices ;/ . But this would take a lot of time. 

 

One of the problems I have with helping out here is that there's a lot of information being thrown around with no context.

 

If you're seeing something you think is weird, it's best to state exactly where that is so I can at least tell you if that's intentional or not.

 

For example, allowing multiple different voice types for some of the temple lines might be intentional, because the quest may have to account for people moving around, dying, being added by mods, and so on.

 

Other things are not. I certainly didn't intend for wolves to be a potential voice type for the CMNF party guests, because that makes no sense.

 

I've seen mentioned a few times the "master of the Order of the Lily" and that not being clear. I don't know what context that term appears in. The NPC is Qawi, and it can only be her. So when I see something like that, I don't know what is being talked about. It's probably also worth mentioning that I don't remember every detail of everything I've ever done on this mod, so many times I have to go and look at it myself to remember what I did. That's much easier with reference points to discuss.

[killer905]

1 hour ago, ruddycray said:

 

One of the problems I have with helping out here is that there's a lot of information being thrown around with no context.

 

If you're seeing something you think is weird, it's best to state exactly where that is so I can at least tell you if that's intentional or not.

 

For example, allowing multiple different voice types for some of the temple lines might be intentional, because the quest may have to account for people moving around, dying, being added by mods, and so on.

 

Other things are not. I certainly didn't intend for wolves to be a potential voice type for the CMNF party guests, because that makes no sense.

 

I've seen mentioned a few times the "master of the Order of the Lily" and that not being clear. I don't know what context that term appears in. The NPC is Qawi, and it can only be her. So when I see something like that, I don't know what is being talked about. It's probably also worth mentioning that I don't remember every detail of everything I've ever done on this mod, so many times I have to go and look at it myself to remember what I did. That's much easier with reference points to discuss.

Yes, yes. In the Animal Research example, it's just that sometimes export creates dialogue for multiple voices, but it shouldn't (especially since the character is a female and no other say that dialogue), and here the dialogue cycles in the guy ‘for some reason’. Then it's easier for me to remove what's unnecessary, because it'll only take up generation time and space for things not used anyway....

TAP has more dependencies and sometimes you just have to dig deeper in the dialogues to see if this dialogue maybe said by another character.

[ruddycray]

7 minutes ago, killer905 said:

Yes, yes. In the Animal Research example, it's just that sometimes export creates dialogue for multiple voices, but it shouldn't (especially since the character is a female and no other say that dialogue), and here the dialogue cycles in the guy ‘for some reason’. Then it's easier for me to remove what's unnecessary, because it'll only take up generation time and space for things not used anyway....

TAP has more dependencies and sometimes you just have to dig deeper in the dialogues to see if this dialogue maybe said by another character.

 

I was just looking into the fact that the Creation Kit thinks that the dialogue for the CMNF party should be said by wolves and deer. I added a new faction that I'm going to add the party guests to. But I've found that if I write the conditions like this:

 

GetInFaction TAPDGJobs01GuestFaction OR
GetIsID TAPRandomBrothelCustomerUpperClass

 

Then the CK thinks that every possible voice type can say that line.

 

But if I write it like this:

 

GetIsID TAPRandomBrothelCustomerUpperClass OR
GetInFaction TAPDGJobs01GuestFaction

 

Then it correctly limits the voice types to the voice types that appear on NPCs who have a faction entry for the faction. I wouldn't have expected order to matter on equivalent conditions, but apparently it does.

[kamithemoon]

2 hours ago, ruddycray said:

I've seen mentioned a few times the "master of the Order of the Lily" and that not being clear. I don't know what context that term appears in. The NPC is Qawi, and it can only be her. So when I see something like that, I don't know what is being talked about. It's probably also worth mentioning that I don't remember every detail of everything I've ever done on this mod, so many times I have to go and look at it myself to remember what I did. That's much easier with reference points to discuss.

This is what has been confusing me as well.  The line in particular is, "Then as the master of the Order of the Lily in Skyrim, I accept your oath and name you a member."  I haven't completed the quest to know who this line belongs to but the script generates it for all voice types, male and female.  There seems to be preceding and proceeding dialogue with this scene that is also generated for all voice types and it's like this for quite a number of scene dialogues.

[killer905]

2 hours ago, ruddycray said:

 

I was just looking into the fact that the Creation Kit thinks that the dialogue for the CMNF party should be said by wolves and deer. I added a new faction that I'm going to add the party guests to. But I've found that if I write the conditions like this:

 

GetInFaction TAPDGJobs01GuestFaction OR
GetIsID TAPRandomBrothelCustomerUpperClass

 

Then the CK thinks that every possible voice type can say that line.

 

But if I write it like this:

 

GetIsID TAPRandomBrothelCustomerUpperClass OR
GetInFaction TAPDGJobs01GuestFaction

 

Then it correctly limits the voice types to the voice types that appear on NPCs who have a faction entry for the faction. I wouldn't have expected order to matter on equivalent conditions, but apparently it does.

Ahh, good to know ❤️

[Jack005]

On 1/29/2025 at 1:51 AM, ruddycray said:

 

I don't think I've implemented that for Benjen's brothel yet.

Are you going to implement this at some point or just remove "I need sometime to get in the mood"?? because is either wait for them "to get in the mood" ,get out of the brothel and do it outside, or pay to do it in the inn (which I dont like because I have to give up more gold and do it with known people)  also,

 

 

I'm trying Dibella temple quests using SL Dibella Sisterhood because at some point SL Sisterhood buggout and quest weren't advancing even using commands soo I decided to try yours, Is there a really strong compatiblity that I should be aware beside the fact that yours take Fjotra (the new Sybil) for certain time???

[ruddycray]

9 minutes ago, Jack005 said:

Are you going to implement this at some point or just remove "I need sometime to get in the mood"?? because is either wait for them "to get in the mood" ,get out of the brothel and do it outside, or pay to do it in the inn (which I dont like because I have to give up more gold and do it with known people)  also,

 

 

I'm trying Dibella temple quests using SL Dibella Sisterhood because at some point SL Sisterhood buggout and quest weren't advancing even using commands soo I decided to try yours, Is there a really strong compatiblity that I should be aware beside the fact that yours take Fjotra (the new Sybil) for certain time???

 

The main compatibility issue so far is that Fjotra disappears, and my adult Sybil is an entirely different NPC. Sisterhood of Dibella changes the original Fjotra NPC to be an adult to begin with. I don't remember if I allowed you to enable the TAP quest line anyway if the Sisterhood of Dibella is installed, but TAP disables its quest line automatically when you use them together for a reason. With the direction I've taken for the temple quest line, it really makes no sense at all to try to run both mods' temple quests at the same time even if there were no compatibility issues.

Edited February 2, 2025 by ruddycray

[ruddycray]

8 hours ago, kamithemoon said:

This is what has been confusing me as well.  The line in particular is, "Then as the master of the Order of the Lily in Skyrim, I accept your oath and name you a member."  I haven't completed the quest to know who this line belongs to but the script generates it for all voice types, male and female.  There seems to be preceding and proceeding dialogue with this scene that is also generated for all voice types and it's like this for quite a number of scene dialogues.

 

I'm a little confused on this. I ran the script myself, and there's exactly one line in the output file containing that dialogue text, and it's for the correct voice type of FemaleCommander. The Creation Kit also shows it can only be said by that voice type, and the exported dialogue file function built into the Creation Kit only has one line for it. So, I'm not really sure how you're getting it for all voice types.

[kamithemoon]

3 hours ago, ruddycray said:

 

I'm a little confused on this. I ran the script myself, and there's exactly one line in the output file containing that dialogue text, and it's for the correct voice type of FemaleCommander. The Creation Kit also shows it can only be said by that voice type, and the exported dialogue file function built into the Creation Kit only has one line for it. So, I'm not really sure how you're getting it for all voice types.

Hrm, at this point, I'm not sure either.  I redownloaded the script and reran it and ended up with 62376 generated voice files and that same line repeated for all voice types.

 

At this point, I can only guess it has something to do with the VR version of xedit.  At any rate, can you please send me the generated csv?   I might be able to work with it.

 

Edit: Verified.  Running the script with xedit v4.1.5f for vr generates 62376 lines of dialogue.  But running xedit with v4.03 for vr generates 48603 lines of dialogue.  That's quite helpful to know and a bit easier to work with now.  Thank you for the hint.

 

It's easier to work with but scanning through the csv there is still a lot of bloat I'm generating.  For example, Erikur's response to the letter are generating for all voice types.  And the first 1700 lines are dedicated to the Temple of Dibella quest but I'm almost certain a lot of them can be pruned.  Speaking of which, can men be recruited to the Temple of Dibella or can I prune those lines?

Edited February 2, 2025 by kamithemoon

[ruddycray]

8 hours ago, kamithemoon said:

Hrm, at this point, I'm not sure either.  I redownloaded the script and reran it and ended up with 62376 generated voice files and that same line repeated for all voice types.

 

At this point, I can only guess it has something to do with the VR version of xedit.  At any rate, can you please send me the generated csv?   I might be able to work with it.

 

Edit: Verified.  Running the script with xedit v4.1.5f for vr generates 62376 lines of dialogue.  But running xedit with v4.03 for vr generates 48603 lines of dialogue.  That's quite helpful to know and a bit easier to work with now.  Thank you for the hint.

 

It's easier to work with but scanning through the csv there is still a lot of bloat I'm generating.  For example, Erikur's response to the letter are generating for all voice types.  And the first 1700 lines are dedicated to the Temple of Dibella quest but I'm almost certain a lot of them can be pruned.  Speaking of which, can men be recruited to the Temple of Dibella or can I prune those lines?

 

48603 is at least in the general vicinity of what I got, which was 48039, but I'm not running against the same version of the esp file that you are, so some differences are to be expected. Just not 20000 lines worth of differences.

 

Men cannot be recruited as "sisters", but they can be recruited for the Order of the Lily.

 

I am looking at some of the extra nonsense generated. For me, brothel customer dialogue is generated for all voice types, including Tullius, Serana, wolves, deer, and so on. I am working on improving some of the conditions there, which should help you.

[kamithemoon]

4 hours ago, ruddycray said:

I am looking at some of the extra nonsense generated. For me, brothel customer dialogue is generated for all voice types, including Tullius, Serana, wolves, deer, and so on. I am working on improving some of the conditions there, which should help you.

At the very least, you shouldn't need to add conditions for Tullius or creatures.  The xedit script should be able to filter out unique NPCs and creatures.  Serana isn't included as unique but can easily be added to the list.

[miscys]

On 1/30/2025 at 11:51 PM, ruddycray said:

 

Yes, a few posts down from that I gave a pointer to one of the most intricate scenes in the mod that needs to be tested out with this conversion, but I don't remember hearing anything more about it.

Here's what I encountered while playing through that quest once on my setup.

 

When you accept a second drink from Marcus it skips directly to a sex scene. (If you say no, there's no apparent way of progressing the quest). After the sex scene, it skips directly to the beginning of the castle. After the first sex scene in the castle (right after the beheading), the game crashes. Also, all the other slaves' scenes are playing out on the same coordinate.

[ruddycray]

7 hours ago, miscys said:

Here's what I encountered while playing through that quest once on my setup.

 

When you accept a second drink from Marcus it skips directly to a sex scene. (If you say no, there's no apparent way of progressing the quest). After the sex scene, it skips directly to the beginning of the castle. After the first sex scene in the castle (right after the beheading), the game crashes. Also, all the other slaves' scenes are playing out on the same coordinate.

 

Some odd behavior is to be expected since that quest line isn't officially released yet and is very incomplete. But the scene with Marcus is heavily scripted and has specific intended behavior. The game definitely shouldn't crash though.

[aqualegacy]

I am unable to locate the brothel in solitude, Im confused, as everything else in the mod works great, there is not detailed description as to the locations of the brothels.

 

[Jack005]

On 2/1/2025 at 7:04 PM, ruddycray said:

 

The main compatibility issue so far is that Fjotra disappears, and my adult Sybil is an entirely different NPC. Sisterhood of Dibella changes the original Fjotra NPC to be an adult to begin with. I don't remember if I allowed you to enable the TAP quest line anyway if the Sisterhood of Dibella is installed, but TAP disables its quest line automatically when you use them together for a reason. With the direction I've taken for the temple quest line, it really makes no sense at all to try to run both mods' temple quests at the same time even if there were no compatibility issues.

It actually dont stop you if you want to activated the quest even if it does when detect Sisterhood (for me is a bless for the problem I have right now with SL Sisterhood, cant advance no matter what I do and if I disable the mod skyrim wont load my save it infinite-loading-screen it) and the turn I seeing for where I'm right now (the attack to dibella temple) and the kind of relationship betwen "the two sides of the coin" makes sense if the dibella sisterhood didn't let you advance after you only join the temple (on its quest), the most breaking quest would be taking away the sybil then, in my case doesn't matter because sisterhood just dont works in my save and I dont want to start again.

 

But thanks for the response because I was afraid that I couldn't finish yours because of sisterhood

[killer905]

1 hour ago, aqualegacy said:

I am unable to locate the brothel in solitude, Im confused, as everything else in the mod works great, there is not detailed description as to the locations of the brothels.

 

Because it is not in Solitude, but on the road between the Statue of Meridia and Solitude.

[ruddycray]

2 hours ago, aqualegacy said:

I am unable to locate the brothel in solitude, Im confused, as everything else in the mod works great, there is not detailed description as to the locations of the brothels.

 

 

I'm fairly certain there are multiple lines of dialogue that mention it's on the road between Solitude and Dragon Bridge. If you travel between the two locations without fast traveling you won't be able to miss it.

[ruddycray]

59 minutes ago, Jack005 said:

It actually dont stop you if you want to activated the quest even if it does when detect Sisterhood (for me is a bless for the problem I have right now with SL Sisterhood, cant advance no matter what I do and if I disable the mod skyrim wont load my save it infinite-loading-screen it) and the turn I seeing for where I'm right now (the attack to dibella temple) and the kind of relationship betwen "the two sides of the coin" makes sense if the dibella sisterhood didn't let you advance after you only join the temple (on its quest), the most breaking quest would be taking away the sybil then, in my case doesn't matter because sisterhood just dont works in my save and I dont want to start again.

 

But thanks for the response because I was afraid that I couldn't finish yours because of sisterhood

 

It might be possible to avoid playing further into the Sisterhood quests, but the storylines are definitely incompatible.

 

Spoiler

The Sisterhood of Dibella puts Sanguine in an adversarial relationship with the temple, seeking to corrupt it, which is in line with lore that Sanguine is an enemy of the Temple of Dibella. In TAP, Sanguine is a more friendly figure. While there are undertones that he's OK with the priestesses giving into debauchery, he is definitely not trying to take over the temple in any sense. Basically, the received wisdom that Dibella and Sanguine are enemies is a bit of an exaggeration.

 

Edited February 4, 2025 by ruddycray

[aqualegacy]

1 hour ago, ruddycray said:

 

I'm fairly certain there are multiple lines of dialogue that mention it's on the road between Solitude and Dragon Bridge. If you travel between the two locations without fast traveling you won't be able to miss it.

I just downloaded around 80 mods today, so I was just thinking there was a possibility something wasn't working properly after troubleshooting much simpler mods for hours, and I ran out the energy to find the answers any other way, but appreciate the conciseness.

[aqualegacy]

Benjen Black-Briar is very illusive, ive searched every corner of Riften and his brothel, still am unable to find him. Maven said he should be in a corner somewhere and nobody else says they've seen him. Is it possible my game is bugged?