Fusion Girl or CBBE?

[EverDed]

Context:
I’m not new to modding but I’ve been out of the game for a few years.  The “state of the art” has progressed considerably in the time I’ve been away and I’m playing catch-up.  I don’t have the kind of time I used to and very much want to play the game once I’ve figured out what mods to use.  To that end; I’ve been reading as much as I can here and over at the Nexus but I wanted to summarize what I think I’ve learned; specifically about CBBE vs Fusion Girl and invite advice and corrections before I start pouring time into modding.  Thanks in advance to those who take the time help, I know how precious it can be!

 

Fusion Girl (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/37268) By team ZeX:

Pros: newest and best animation support via ZaZ extended skeleton and AAF; Body Slide/Studio support for outfit/body customization (which makes outfit selection moot imo); CBP physics support, up to 8k textures.

Cons: No dismemberment.  Seriously that’s the only con I’ve seen. 
 

CBBE
https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/15 Originally by Caliente:

Pros:  “Basic” Animation support via AAF; dismemberment support via CBBE (R); *tons* of outfits ready to go; detailed decal support; body physics with a few options.

Cons: conflicts with ZaZ Skelton which leads to limited animation support with AAF.

 

Summary:

Both viable options but with mutually exclusive advantages “gore” with CBBE (including live dismemberment and head wounds); detailed animations with Fusion Girl.  
    I would love to have my cake and eat it too but it seems as if getting CBBE have full functionality with AAF would require a ton of work with the skeleton that is beyond my skill.  Making a reduced poly Fusion Girl may be achievable but sounds like a huge time sink and I’m unclear what other steps may be required.  If I could do it and team ZeX is amenable it would be my first real contribution to the community that have gotten so much from...

 

If you’ve read this far, thanks.  If you have thoughts, suggestions or corrections, thanks again!

 

[KaraCannon]

A cool thing is how you can still use CBBE based outfits comfortably while having Fusion Girl as long as you have some presets saved, one downside tho are the skin textures that just look terrible when doing this.

[Indarello]

49 minutes ago, KaraCannon said:

A cool thing is how you can still use CBBE based outfits comfortably while having Fusion Girl as long as you have some presets saved, one downside tho are the skin textures that just look terrible when doing this.

Cbbe texuters works good on fusion girl if you use genitals psd resource

Fusion girls textures already have them and works good on cbbe

 

I prefer fusion girl because of more detailed vagina, better feet, better skeleton

 

You can check my mod for fusion girl and outfits

It is not so hard to port your favorite outfit for fusion girl body as far outfit is not long dress or something special like piercing

[mashup47]

@EverDed . Sorry for my confusion but What animations cant CBBE use? I use Zaz skeleton with Bodytalk and I have CBBE Physics, Cherry Physic's installed for female's and have not come a cross any animation that I can't use with AAF.

[EverDed]

@mashup47

I may be mistaken on that point; but it is my understanding that none of the genital animations work without ZeX skeleton and it does not work well if at all, with CBBE (eg knee issues) as per this thread.

[TheBottomhoodofSteel]

CBBE reduced is an aftertought and has minimal support at best unless you're willing to add it yourself, but don't count on being able to add it to most newer outfits since the game limits dismember to 20K poly...

I've been working on FG dismemberment, but unless I can down the polycount 5K more (Can't, optimized as best as it could for bodyslide and gameplay) then it's not doable. Vanilla clothing could have it, but the main body won't.. Even then it would only work on Vanilla clothing and modded clothing that doesn't go over 20,000 polygons.

Cherry's is a havok physics hack and most CBBE physics pre CBP are just that, Hacky havok hacks that fuck up, CBP is scripted. both are kinda not the best, but CBP at least lets you tune it and have separate setups for when armor is on. Default skeleton though has some fucked up transforms on the breasts, so CBP kinda shits itself on the breast skin bones. 

CBBE will never be compatible with the ZeX Skeleton AFAIK since the people maintaining it think no one wants that or anything we tried to offer when we originally developed the skeleton and had plans to use CBBE for it. Fun fact: we did approach them and try to talk to them about this but everything fell through and we decided to forge our own route and body mod system. Leito's work fixed most of the issues with females animating in game as best as he could and Trophi is working to improve FG in the mapping/Texture department... 

 

Support is slowly being added in, but it takes time and I encourage authors porting to FG to have permissions and make quality refits, so stuff takes time. 

EDIT: IF you can reduce the polycount 5K more without destroying the body anywhere, I can get the dismember working, as I already went through the steps and know what to do, just haven't been able to figure it out. 

[mashup47]

I admit I may be missing  bouncing ball bags, but that's not a big problem for me. I use cherry for any bikini type outfits. basic CBBE physics for dresses and Better CBBE physics with more jiggle with Female naked body. But have not noticed any missing animation's apart from the bouncing ball bags? and as for erections they work perfectly with BodyTalk.

[EverDed]

@TheBottomhoodofSteel

Thank you, that is exactly the kind of input I was hoping for.  Sounds like Fusion Girl is the best path going forward.  I’ll just have to live without dismemberment (or play vanilla).  I’ll poke at the FG body mesh (if I can figure out how) but eliminating 5k polygons one-by-one sounds daunting.

I assume hacking the game to work with more than 20k polygons is nontrivial or it would already have been done.

Did the devs code a limit into it to prevent instability on contemporary hardware or is it a consequence of the code itself?

 

[TheBottomhoodofSteel]

16 minutes ago, EverDed said:

@TheBottomhoodofSteel

Thank you, that is exactly the kind of input I was hoping for.  Sounds like Fusion Girl is the best path going forward.  I’ll just have to live without dismemberment (or play vanilla).  I’ll poke at the FG body mesh (if I can figure out how) but eliminating 5k polygons one-by-one sounds daunting.

I assume hacking the game to work with more than 20k polygons is nontrivial or it would already have been done.

Did the devs code a limit into it to prevent instability on contemporary hardware or is it a consequence of the code itself?

 

Don't put your heart up. I consulted with Leito and there's nowhere I can pull away 5K polygons without issues. Even then the amount of work required to adapt custom outfits to using it would be almost worthless cause not many would be able to utilize it. I can get away with it in BT because most male content tends to be under that limit... Female content seems to suffer the "higher poly = quality and large boob no issue" issue, so it's pointless to want dismember. 

The 20K poly limit seems to be a hardline limit from what I looked into. The dismemberment system in FO4 is kinda a script based system. I'd assume the limit is more or less a stability one as when the limb is severed it's considered it's own part and scripted to have a meatcap on it. I'm unsure how it was done in previous Fallouts, but I'm doubtful anyone had anything over 20K poly in FO3/NV

[EverDed]

@TheBottomhoodofSteel

Copy that. Expectations managed; hopes and dreams crushed.  I’ll just have to console and distract myself with some interesting outfits and animations.  

I just had a thought though:  If it happens through scripts anyway would it be possible to, when the damage happens, swap out the body for one with a missing limb (eliminating ploys) and a severed limb with a low poly count? I have no idea if this even makes sense; but would that let you drop the 5k polys (e.g. Normal body = 25k, normal body - arm = 18k, low poly severed arm = 1.9k).  Unmutilated actors could walk around as complex as they want if you don’t have to worry about the 20k cap until you start chopping bits off.  You’d have to make a different body for every possible mutilation combination and I’m not sure what to do about clothes... Alternatively, if the core concepts is viable, mutilation could be restricted to explosives and the body could be swapped out for low poly bits and pieces with generic charred clothes...

 

Forgive me if that rant just exposes my ignorance.  Thanks again for your input.

[Zor2k13]

Looking at this issue after doing some searching it seems like anyone wanting to do porn related save games will have to go with fusion girl mod and I would think most porn saves would be non combat activity with AAF mods and just fucking around. Most well... maybe some of us probably don't use dismemberment in porn mods anyway right? I'm not into that gross shit myself. I guess if you wanted to do cybernetic or robot limbs mods though you would need dismemberment features.

[Hieronymos]

Just fired up an AAF build today, containing SEU, FPE, with vanilla theme & BP70 & leito's anims--after a year making do with the Four Play-based assets of late 2018. 

 

Used CBBE, as there are a ton of outfits for it, and most of FO4 is conducted clothed.  So I can't comment on the merits of Fusion Girl. Having said that, if she gets the knees thing right, then she's my girl. 

 

But I wanted to address the apparent criticism in this thread of CBBE genitalia detail, as there's a very useful file called ADDON_body_textures_with_detailed_female_vagina, a 44.7MB file that also includes anim changes for sex. Can't recall the author...but perhaps folks more familiar with the site can track it down, as it was a resource used by Animated Fannies. From the screenies I've seen of Fusion Girl's privates, there doesn't seem to be much if any difference in visual quality. 

 

My impression today with an AAF-based vanilla hetro package was that its' features and animations are both superior and inferior to the earlier Leito/Vinfamy/Crazy system. Some of BP70's and--I'm assuming--updated Leito anims are of near-cinematic quality. 

 

 

[TheBottomhoodofSteel]

30 minutes ago, EverDed said:

@TheBottomhoodofSteel

Copy that. Expectations managed; hopes and dreams crushed.  I’ll just have to console and distract myself with some interesting outfits and animations.  

I just had a thought though:  If it happens through scripts anyway would it be possible to, when the damage happens, swap out the body for one with a missing limb (eliminating ploys) and a severed limb with a low poly count? I have no idea if this even makes sense; but would that let you drop the 5k polys (e.g. Normal body = 25k, normal body - arm = 18k, low poly severed arm = 1.9k).  Unmutilated actors could walk around as complex as they want if you don’t have to worry about the 20k cap until you start chopping bits off.  You’d have to make a different body for every possible mutilation combination and I’m not sure what to do about clothes... Alternatively, if the core concepts is viable, mutilation could be restricted to explosives and the body could be swapped out for low poly bits and pieces with generic charred clothes...

 

Forgive me if that rant just exposes my ignorance.  Thanks again for your input.

Your question - No 

The system uses the Subsegment system present in the nif to do dismemberment. The subsegment system is basically the model is divided into subsegments based on vertices (Think of it like vertex painting, since the model doesn't have to be separated)

For Example - BodyTalk's Model base with the Segmentation data for the Arm and leg shown. Each colour (Except Gray) is a segment (Grey is unpainted or other segments), Script uses this to chop the body up and create the separated model based on what part of the limb you cut off. The script doesn't swap models, more or less splits the model in game up based on dismemberment and treats the severed parts as their own "model"  

So if I chopped at the arm anywhere near the blue/Green, I would chop the Arm off. The border of the blue/green would be where the meatcaps meet up and the Green to Red+Hands would be treated as a separate model, but still attched to the actor (You can loot just the arm or leg on dismembered actors) 

Head Dismemberment is it's own thing, under any body mod the head can dismember just fine. 

 

in game example - Earliest Testing of BT2 with the dismember function. As you can note, The arm is chopped off at the hand and the leg is chopped at mid thigh. The game only does this at exact points where the segments border each other, you can't chop parts off. 

 

The reason there would be a polygon limit would be more likely performance of the system as it can be a heavy system to work with. If you're dismembering multiple enemies at once. You could probably find and tinker with the scripts, but I don't know if there's a way to remove the coded limit without issues. 

 

(Skyrim does use something similar to this, but The system IIRC can handle higher poly models, but you don't get dismemberment like in FO. The system IIRC is used to remove parts of the body for taller boots and certain gauntlets)
 

[TheBottomhoodofSteel]

10 minutes ago, Hieronymos said:

Just fired up an AAF build today, containing SEU, FPE, with vanilla theme & BP70 & leito's anims--after a year making do with the Four Play-based assets of late 2018. 

 

Used CBBE, as there are a ton of outfits for it, and most of FO4 is conducted clothed.  So I can't comment on the merits of Fusion Girl. Having said that, if she gets the knees thing right, then she's my girl. 

 

But I wanted to address the apparent criticism in this thread of CBBE genitalia detail, as there's a very useful file called ADDON_body_textures_with_detailed_female_vagina, a 44.7MB file that also includes anim changes for sex. Can't recall the author...but perhaps folks more familiar with the site can track it down, as it was a resource used by Animated Fannies. From the screenies I've seen of Fusion Girl's privates, there doesn't seem to be much if any difference in visual quality. 

 

My impression today with an AAF-based vanilla hetro package was that its' features and animations are both superior and inferior to the earlier Leito/Vinfamy/Crazy system. Some of BP70's and--I'm assuming--updated Leito anims are of near-cinematic quality. 

 

 

IIRC Animated fannies is morphs based, Fusion girl's is all bone based, so animators control the entire thing (Kinda like in skyrim, but IIRC Skyrim uses HDT or CBPC to collision, weird but whatever)

 

49 minutes ago, Zor2k13 said:

Looking at this issue after doing some searching it seems like anyone wanting to do porn related save games will have to go with fusion girl mod and I would think most porn saves would be non combat activity with AAF mods and just fucking around. Most well... maybe some of us probably don't use dismemberment in porn mods anyway right? I'm not into that gross shit myself. I guess if you wanted to do cybernetic or robot limbs mods though you would need dismemberment features.

Just because people do a porn build doesn't mean I'm not a completionist who would love to have the body with working dismemberment. Plus cybernetics don't need the system to work, most of the ones available are\ edited body models to allow the limbs. I have it for myself for one of my character playthroughs, where his leg is a mannequin leg. 

So it slightly irritates me when people get all stupid about FG's dismemberment or try to mention CBBE reduced (especially when CBBER is treated as a fucking afterthought 99.9% of the time anyway). It's out of my control to make it, getting mad over it when every other body outside of Wonder Body doesn't dismember and no one whines about it (Even CBBE base doesn't because bitch is at 50,000 poly and poorly optimized as fuck, but who cares right?) just gets me a bit ... Hot (loud video for the feelings)

 

[Zor2k13]

Well I have to say when I said porn save I was thinking mostly of AAF hardship beggar whore running everything so in that kind of run the player is just whoring around barely scraping by not becoming some kind of super human thing rebuilding the whole commonwealth in 90 days plus doing all the sidequests and saving the world. I am planning on somehow getting to diamond city (probably with coc commands) and just fucking around between there and goodneighbor maybe try some new world mods content like northern springs and say to hell with settlements and the main quest. I have played this game so many times it just a huge bore now. I want to try the start me up mod and see what happens. I'm also thinking about a save where my character starts off as a broke ass whore and then eventually does the main quest I'm just so tired of the vanilla content.

 

If fusion girl works fine with dismemberment than ok thats great, now I have to get all vanilla outfits working for it and armors too. I was looking at this mod here: https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/38104

 

Lots of problems in the bug section though and they are recent. For vanilla armors I am still searching I don't know if anyone made any conversions yet.

 

CBBE at 50k polys would probably explain why my settlements slow down to 30fps or lower during crafting after about 25 or 26 settlers are living there.

[mashup47]

48 minutes ago, Zor2k13 said:

https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/38104

 

Lots of problems in the bug section though and they are recent.

I just looked at that mod on nexus and I did not see any bug's listed in the bug section!.

 

you Also want to take a look at Advanced Need 2 and a new mod that will be out shortly called Crime and punishment. Both mods are made by Flashy(joeR).

 

[Zor2k13]

My bad it was in the comments section people are really complaining about skin problems and seams.

[mashup47]

3 minutes ago, Zor2k13 said:

My bad it was in the comments section people are really complaining about skin problems and seams.

Oh yea just had a quick read of it.

[JohnnyGunn]

Immersively speaking, CBBE is the way to go. Fusion Girl isn't very immersive and leads me to think that peeps who use that body are fapping to video games. ?

[mashup47]

1 hour ago, AutomaticBrah said:

Immersively speaking, CBBE is the way to go. Fusion Girl isn't very immersive and leads me to think that peeps who use that body are fapping to video games. ?

Even tho I use CBBE only through sheer laziness because I cant be bothered changing 2500 plus presets I have done over the past couple of year's. I would most definitely Use Fusion Girl as it is a better solution then the CBBE Body.  But by the time I decide to do that I think Nvidia would have released the RTX 4080. But I guess we should be all thankful that we have a choice in the matter and be thankful that there are Author's out there willing to give up 100's of hour's of their time to give us this choice for Free.

[EverDed]

@TheBottomhoodofSteel

Thank you for the clarification.  I figured it worked something like that. Not to beat a dead horse; rather to make sure the basic idea wouldn’t work:  Would the script that handles dismemberment be able to switch from the normal body to one where the affected limb or limbs are lower poly count? If the switch happened before the dismemberment is applied it could work normally from there, detaching at the appropriate point and so on...

 

That aside; thank you for your work and for taking the time to answer questions here both are appreciated.  

[TheBottomhoodofSteel]

3 hours ago, EverDed said:

@TheBottomhoodofSteel

Thank you for the clarification.  I figured it worked something like that. Not to beat a dead horse; rather to make sure the basic idea wouldn’t work:  Would the script that handles dismemberment be able to switch from the normal body to one where the affected limb or limbs are lower poly count? If the switch happened before the dismemberment is applied it could work normally from there, detaching at the appropriate point and so on...

 

That aside; thank you for your work and for taking the time to answer questions here both are appreciated.  

As I said above. Any system that does what you're specifying will not work. that much is a hard coded limit. I'm unsure if the limit is or not though, but I don't have the time to go through scripts and try to piece it. 

[Olmech]

On 1/12/2020 at 5:42 AM, AutomaticBrah said:

Immersively speaking, CBBE is the way to go. Fusion Girl isn't very immersive and leads me to think that peeps who use that body are fapping to video games. ?

Ummm...hmmm. You do realize this is Loverslab right? But fapping aside...Fusion Girl is still a better body if for nothing else knees that work. If that doesnt bother you then by all means go CBBE as the clothes are more readily available for that body. Now...back to fapping....

[Olmech]

On 1/11/2020 at 10:45 PM, Zor2k13 said:

https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/38104

 

Lots of problems in the bug section though and they are recent. For vanilla armors I am still searching I don't know if anyone made any conversions yet.

I use Lazman's Outfit Replacer for Fusion Girl. I would rather have a really good Vanilla replacer but I find that Lazman's attention to making the outfits work well is just superior. I will eventually make my own just as I did for CBBE anyway. Just takes a while...

 

Lotta growing pains making the switch from CBBE to Fusion Girl but I could never go back now. Fusion Girl is just better in my opinion.

[EverDed]

4 hours ago, Olmech said:

Ummm...hmmm. You do realize this is Loverslab right? But fapping aside...Fusion Girl is still a better body if for nothing else knees that work. If that doesnt bother you then by all means go CBBE as the clothes are more readily available for that body. Now...back to fapping....

On that note: The outfits, not the fapping... well maybe a little bit of the fapping... I assume conversion to FG via Body Slide hasn’t changed much but is the application of CBP to non-physics clothes similar to CHCBBEP despite the script vs morph animation methodology?