Patreon for sharing tray files... Is it acceptable to sell other people's mods??

[Mariana Soprano]

Oh, R-Lo - you re talking about adult stuff - but I just meaned all stuff, especially the non adult CC.

 

But unfortunately for Patreon... what is once at the web will be shared from time to time lets call it "otherwise" - all a question of patience, not of prices ?

 

I would prefer a platform like TSR for adult stuff and pay every month a bit for a VIP status without advertisements.

[R-Lo]

3 minutes ago, Mariana Soprano said:

Oh, R-Lo - you re talking about adult stuff - but I just meaned all stuff, especially the non adult CC.

 

But unfortunately for Patreon... what is once at the web will be shared from time to time lets call it "otherwise" - all a question of patience, not of prices ?

 

I would prefer a platform like TSR for adult stuff and pay every month a bit for a VIP status without advertisements.

 

Ok I see what you mean, yeah, i think some do tumblr etc and recently discord too but could always be better,

An adult TSR would be nice idea too, its good of LL to have us but at same time its not always easy for staff here to categorize the download section and some users have a hard time searching through it all

 

[Mariana Soprano]

1 minute ago, R-Lo said:

An adult TSR would be nice idea too, its good of LL to have us but at same time its not always easy for staff here to categorize the download section and some users have a hard time searching through it all

This is sooo true! I often miss stuff a long time without missing it at all *lol

I much to often got animations for WW for a time but the list in game grows so big, I m often lost if I just like to take a look at the new updated stuff.

One more reason not to visite Patreon - I would be just more confused as I am regular ?

 

[JohnnyES]

I'm just wondering on wich side of your "fair line" creators like Noir and Dark would be placed... They are constantly uploading tray items and third party CC's in their patreons.

[R-Lo]

20 minutes ago, JohnnyES said:

I'm just wondering on wich side of your "fair line" creators like Noir and Dark would be placed... They are constantly uploading tray items and third party CC's in their patreons.

As far as im aware, Noir creates a lot of her own content and  furniture, has done since TS3 at least ? she creates these meshes herself

[JohnnyES]

This zip also contains cc's from lumia lover sim, anto, s-club, obscurus, kijiko and thousand of others creators. 

https://imgur.com/a/9aqOJ4w

[WandererZero]

On 2/16/2019 at 2:29 AM, R-Lo said:

If you're going to argue that time in CAS is the same as time in Blender and graphic design software then you need to gain a better understanding.

I want to jump in here as a user of content, and someone who has absolutely zero problem paying for content. A potential customer, if you will. 

 

I use custom sims, I use custom CC. I spend money on patreon. I've contemplated spending money with both animators and custom sim creators in the Sims 4 world, as I have with F4, and other games, as well as commissioned art. Kicking $5 or $10 bucks to someone like Doxy, or LL itself, or others is easy to do. But I have to tell you, I've looked at this thread now and again, and well: this thread has put me off of spending money in the sims 4 community itself. Why?  

 

It's the "Pew Lasers" drama from Fallout 4 being replayed in Sims. 

 

I get what you're trying to do. You're trying to establish a litmus test for what is, and what is not "creative enough" to warrant someone shelling out $5. 

 

Your position is "people's time spent in Blender and Photoshop or Gimp to create" has a greater value than someone who may spend an equal amount of time in CAS. It's a perfectly fair point to make. But you take it a step further. You seem to deride CAS creation of being of lesser value because they didn't do X other steps, or work in X program, or make any of the custom clothes themselves. 

 

Frankly, you're welcome to that view, but, frankly....you're not in the position to determine the value of what someone else creates to anyone who will listen. You don't get to say "CAS authors aren't as creative, (and by extension, expressive) as the person who worked in Photoshop". That's not your value assessment to make, and when you do...you turn people right off with your message. 

 

One lesson I've learned in life is that....the value you place in something, is not always equal to the value others may place in it. It's something you need to take to heart. I get it. CAS creations flood the money channel, and there is a lot of inferior garbage out there. The way to beat that is to be better, not to disparage people on the basis of "They don't do X"....

 

You can take what I say here, and argue....but, I'm telling you what it looks like from the outside. From the perspective of someone who buys content...your view alienates folks like me. I do have IRL friends who are actual artists. I have never heard them put down other folks for trying to sell their art simply because they did less work, or didn't do it in X or Y fashion. Artists, good ones...elevate each other. They may get bemused by some rando on DA trying to sell badly drawn sonic pictures made with Copic markers...but they never disparage them, or apply litmus tests for what is or isn't art, or what is or is not "worthy of sale", to wit; one man's junk is another man's treasure. 

 

Value for created works is self determined. While I get you don't like the value assigned to CAS, it's not your place to say they're less creative because they didn't use blender. You put off people who may be potentially interested in spending their money with this kind of drivel. 

 

Cheers. 

 

 

[DoctaSax]

8 minutes ago, WandererZero said:

the value you place in something, is not always equal to the value others may place in it

This is true.

 

The problem pointed out by the OP though seems to be that many pre-made sims often come with assets attached that were made by others, and that people have taken to uploading those packages for financial gain. This in turn seems to somehow 'taint' others who accept donations for work entirely their own, and who already often feel under attack over it. This is understandably frustrating, but I don't think shifting the dim view on patreon mods in general to especially those of a particular type is the way to go about it.

 

Reuploading somebody's assets for a given purpose is either allowed or it isn't. The person doing the allowing is whoever made that asset. The community doesn't need to find a consensus on a new code of conduct for every variation of the issue. Unauthorized copying already isn't allowed. Authorized copying is. And copying's either one or the other.

[R-Lo]

10 hours ago, WandererZero said:

I want to jump in here as a user of content, and someone who has absolutely zero problem paying for content. A potential customer, if you will. 

 

I use custom sims, I use custom CC. I spend money on patreon. I've contemplated spending money with both animators and custom sim creators in the Sims 4 world, as I have with F4, and other games, as well as commissioned art. Kicking $5 or $10 bucks to someone like Doxy, or LL itself, or others is easy to do. But I have to tell you, I've looked at this thread now and again, and well: this thread has put me off of spending money in the sims 4 community itself. Why?  

 

It's the "Pew Lasers" drama from Fallout 4 being replayed in Sims. 

 

I get what you're trying to do. You're trying to establish a litmus test for what is, and what is not "creative enough" to warrant someone shelling out $5. 

 

Your position is "people's time spent in Blender and Photoshop or Gimp to create" has a greater value than someone who may spend an equal amount of time in CAS. It's a perfectly fair point to make. But you take it a step further. You seem to deride CAS creation of being of lesser value because they didn't do X other steps, or work in X program, or make any of the custom clothes themselves. 

 

Frankly, you're welcome to that view, but, frankly....you're not in the position to determine the value of what someone else creates to anyone who will listen. You don't get to say "CAS authors aren't as creative, (and by extension, expressive) as the person who worked in Photoshop". That's not your value assessment to make, and when you do...you turn people right off with your message. 

 

One lesson I've learned in life is that....the value you place in something, is not always equal to the value others may place in it. It's something you need to take to heart. I get it. CAS creations flood the money channel, and there is a lot of inferior garbage out there. The way to beat that is to be better, not to disparage people on the basis of "They don't do X"....

 

You can take what I say here, and argue....but, I'm telling you what it looks like from the outside. From the perspective of someone who buys content...your view alienates folks like me. I do have IRL friends who are actual artists. I have never heard them put down other folks for trying to sell their art simply because they did less work, or didn't do it in X or Y fashion. Artists, good ones...elevate each other. They may get bemused by some rando on DA trying to sell badly drawn sonic pictures made with Copic markers...but they never disparage them, or apply litmus tests for what is or isn't art, or what is or is not "worthy of sale", to wit; one man's junk is another man's treasure. 

 

Value for created works is self determined. While I get you don't like the value assigned to CAS, it's not your place to say they're less creative because they didn't use blender. You put off people who may be potentially interested in spending their money with this kind of drivel. 

 

Cheers. 

 

 

 

 

My view is that people should not be profiting from custom content content that expressly forbidden people to do so.

Personal judgement isn't what important here but to respond to yours, you are wrong,

I'm am very encouraging towards sim makers but I believe that the sale of others mods is completely unacceptable.

 

I'm not denying that sim creation is an artform in some respects, I've made a lot myself.

However I do not class my characters as mods,

a character is merely a container in this instance when the product is fully dependant on cc which is bundled in for convenience.

 

 

And that word is key... "Convenience"

This is the reason that mods are bundled, for people who are admittedly "lazy"

Adfly links aside, it's faster for the creator and faster for the user, that's the main motivation.

 

But content creators are often called lazy or greedy or milking patrons etc,

 

I recently did some recolours of my own,

Pure amateur stuff and mostly an experiment, don't really know the software etc, 

I uploaded this for free,

Is this something that should be sold by another person?

Especially seeing as it is stuff that I don't class as completed?

 

 

A lot of people show their work in my picture thread, I'm fully understanding of their feelings.

When they are going out of their way to create for the love, I agree with them when they become upset at their creations being used for profit time and time again by the same users,

 

If sim creators were made to pay royalties or a subscription to the authors they're using, we'd see a lot less.

 

Many of the custom Sims are just warmed over clones, an existing model, slightly edited and given a bundle of that month's cc findings.

It also causes issues when they start to merge these bundles, messing up games in the process.

 

 

Time in CAS does require an eye for detail, just as much as Blender and Photoshop etc,

But when Patreon and support is concerned, it's meant for things that people are building and developing, not how you use/arrange other peoples art.

 

It's great that people share Sims but I don't believe it's something that should be sold,

I'm very certain it wasn't the intention of the Tray importer software and we could lose that feature if it's abused.

 

 

If Patreon sim creators were to not be uploading bundles to paywall then I have no argument,

Tray files on Patreon page with a list of links.... I have zero issue.

 

 

People upload bundles for convenience, profit should not be a part of this motive.

Unless of course if they are willing to pay a percentage to the people who they are using, 

Instead of giving the finger and claiming that they don't own their content like I've seen done in the past.

 

 

If people seek to earn money from their characters, content creators terms and feelings should be respected in the process, not blatantly ignored

 

 

What the rest of the web does is none of my concern.

My thoughts feelings, thoughts and judgement aside, that is the most important issue here which I am trying to address.

 

[2cool4u_1]

3 hours ago, R-Lo said:

 

 

My view is that people should not be profiting from custom content content that expressly forbidden people to do so.

Personal judgement isn't what important here but to respond to yours, you are wrong,

I'm am very encouraging towards sim makers but I believe that the sale of others mods is completely unacceptable.

 

I'm not denying that sim creation is an artform in some respects, I've made a lot myself.

However I do not class my characters as mods,

a character is merely a container in this instance when the product is fully dependant on cc which is bundled in for convenience.

 

 

And that word is key... "Convenience"

This is the reason that mods are bundled, for people who are admittedly "lazy"

Adfly links aside, it's faster for the creator and faster for the user, that's the main motivation.

 

But content creators are often called lazy or greedy or milking patrons etc,

 

I recently did some recolours of my own,

Pure amateur stuff and mostly an experiment, don't really know the software etc, 

I uploaded this for free,

Is this something that should be sold by another person?

Especially seeing as it is stuff that I don't class as completed?

 

 

A lot of people show their work in my picture thread, I'm fully understanding of their feelings.

When they are going out of their way to create for the love, I agree with them when they become upset at their creations being used for profit time and time again by the same users,

 

If sim creators were made to pay royalties or a subscription to the authors they're using, we'd see a lot less.

 

Many of the custom Sims are just warmed over clones, an existing model, slightly edited and given a bundle of that month's cc findings.

It also causes issues when they start to merge these bundles, messing up games in the process.

 

 

Time in CAS does require an eye for detail, just as much as Blender and Photoshop etc,

But when Patreon and support is concerned, it's meant for things that people are building and developing, not how you use/arrange other peoples art.

 

It's great that people share Sims but I don't believe it's something that should be sold,

I'm very certain it wasn't the intention of the Tray importer software and we could lose that feature if it's abused.

 

 

If Patreon sim creators were to not be uploading bundles to paywall then I have no argument,

Tray files on Patreon page with a list of links.... I have zero issue.

 

 

People upload bundles for convenience, profit should not be a part of this motive.

Unless of course if they are willing to pay a percentage to the people who they are using, 

Instead of giving the finger and claiming that they don't own their content like I've seen done in the past.

 

 

If people seek to earn money from their characters, content creators terms and feelings should be respected in the process, not blatantly ignored

 

 

What the rest of the web does is none of my concern.

My thoughts feelings, thoughts and judgement aside, that is the most important issue here which I am trying to address.

 

Wow, @R-Lo. You really hit the nail on the head. The only thing I would change is "If people seek to earn money from their characters, content creators terms and feelings should be respected in the process, not blatantly ignored". I'm very understanding that some creators say "No re-uploads, period", but it's too easy to forget the TOU for each piece of CC. So I hold no malice against those who break such terms and re-upload them anyway, either through forgetfulness or ignorance of said terms. However, if you are aware of such terms, they should / must be respected.

[R-Lo]

44 minutes ago, 2cool4u_1 said:

Wow, @R-Lo. You really hit the nail on the head. The only thing I would change is "If people seek to earn money from their characters, content creators terms and feelings should be respected in the process, not blatantly ignored". I'm very understanding that some creators say "No re-uploads, period", but it's too easy to forget the TOU for each piece of CC. So I hold no malice against those who break such terms and re-upload them anyway, either through forgetfulness or ignorance of said terms. However, if you are aware of such terms, they should / must be respected.

 

Thanks for understanding my motivation!

I'm aware that many people upload and re-upload etc but it's not that easy to forget,

It's a common request across pretty much every site and download thread, when recoloring a cc, a mesh isn't automatically included in the package, it needs to be intentionally and manually added, just like deciding to dress a Sim that you already know is going to be sold.

 

The best way is to include no mods period, unless you are fully confident it's not specified otherwise and can verbally quote it,

I really don't feel that forgetfulness is a factor here, it's the knowledge that a naked and bald sim does not warrant payment nor does base game make up, tattoos and clothing,

 

It's not easy to accept that it's forgettable as it's found everywhere you look and a lot of users are aware of drama that publicly unfolds in full view between creators and modders who've stepped on each others toes with users each stating their own personal opinions on the matter and picking sides etc.

 

It's mainly a lack of respect that is at the root of things, 

Creators can get angry but it's the ability to "forget" their feelings that drives this forward

[R-Lo]

13 hours ago, JohnnyES said:

This zip also contains cc's from lumia lover sim, anto, s-club, obscurus, kijiko and thousand of others creators. 

https://imgur.com/a/9aqOJ4w

Noir is not selling peoples content, she makes her own,

The authors whose content have been uploaded have no doubt downloaded as much of hers too,

 

She does not run a patreon with the sole intention of selling Sims and bundles of others content, she just shared the Sims that she was using to preview her own works at users request.

 

[R-Lo]

Another way to look at this is the whole situation between Artwww and Turbo/Deaderpool,

Copy/pasting code and modules to his own patreon mod.

We all know that's wrong and exactly why,

But despite that, their feelings and the respect is "forgotten" and users only care about their ability to run both mods without conflict.. while the modders who were ripped off are considered greedy.

 

Modding is not ruthless business or a competitive sport, We're meant to be a community.

Which Everyone against patreon is apparently fighting for...

[2cool4u_1]

44 minutes ago, R-Lo said:

 

Thanks for understanding my motivation!

I'm aware that many people upload and re-upload etc but it's not that easy to forget,

It's a common request across pretty much every site and download thread, when recoloring a cc, a mesh isn't automatically included in the package, it needs to be intentionally and manually added, just like deciding to dress a Sim that you already know is going to be sold.

 

The best way is to include no mods period, unless you are fully confident it's not specified otherwise and can verbally quote it,

I really don't feel that forgetfulness is a factor here, it's the knowledge that a naked and bald sim does not warrant payment nor does base game make up, tattoos and clothing,

 

It's not easy to accept that it's forgettable as it's found everywhere you look and a lot of users are aware of drama that publicly unfolds in full view between creators and modders who've stepped on each others toes with users each stating their own personal opinions on the matter and picking sides etc.

 

It's mainly a lack of respect that is at the root of things, 

Creators can get angry but it's the ability to "forget" their feelings that drives this forward

Ooops. When I was talking about forgetting, I was referring to FREE sims. I was also assuming that people did their absolute best to respect TOU, but might of forgotten / mistaken the TOU for 1 (maybe 2) pieces of CC. I simply meant that I harbor no ill feelings toward them, and could forgive such an accident. It is those who simply don't care, due to convenience (as you pointed out), that I find unforgivable.

 

EDIT: There is no excuse, period, when money is involved.

[R-Lo]

1 minute ago, 2cool4u_1 said:

Ooops. When I was talking about forgetting, I was referring to FREE sims. I was also assuming that people did their absolute best to respect TOU, but might of forgotten / mistaken the TOU for 1 (maybe 2) pieces of CC. I simply meant that I harbor no ill feelings toward them, and could forgive such an accident. It is those who simply don't care, due to convenience (as you pointed out), that I find unforgivable.

 

 

No problem! 

Free Sims are completely off the radar of this thread, I'm not gonna say that people cannot do that as I fully understand the multiple positive reasons for including cc, most will at least credit authors too.

[JohnnyES]

1 hour ago, R-Lo said:

Noir is not selling peoples content, she makes her own,

The authors whose content have been uploaded have no doubt downloaded as much of hers too,

 

She does not run a patreon with the sole intention of selling Sims and bundles of others content, she just shared the Sims that she was using to preview her own works at users request.

 

You can't be more casuistic. congratulations.

[2cool4u_1]

49 minutes ago, JohnnyES said:

You can't be more casuistic. congratulations.

I am not one of Noir's Patrons, so I cannot speak to any sold sims on Patreon. I have seen and downloaded FREE sims from her Patreon, and CC was not included. Just saying.

[R-Lo]

1 hour ago, JohnnyES said:

You can't be more casuistic. congratulations.

 

Nah, you're just splitting hairs by trying to throw another creator under the bus,

Noir is one of the longest running creators here so it's very likely that has been already in collaboration with those people or built a mutual and/or unspoken understanding with them.

 

 

Also, you like to miss the core point of my words.

This occasion being that her patreon Is not solely focused on uploading Sims on a monthly basis.

 

Noirs patreon is about her creations and Noirs Adult World, not the Sims she makes.

 

Stop looking for weak examples because this isn't a case of wrong or right 

It's not theoretical or speculation. This is happening.

 

People are pissed off with their work being sold by others and it's a fact.

They are not condemning the people sharing, only the people selling,

 

It doesn't require much more thought than that and you're far too judgemental towards me personally although I'm speaking for a group of people who have I some respect for.

 

You wanted to tell me that I can't have a view in this, we now know you're wrong. Beyond this I'm struggling to find a point to your debate.

[Julie J]

If I remember correctly Noir started around the same time I started to create for Sims 3 2009/2010 and made similar sort of stuff as I was back then (BDSM related) and Noir has only got better over the years with her cc.

 

The reason a lot of creators have do not reupload is because also around that time there was a few sites (some Russian, some Korean) that were reuploading free content without giving credit to the authors of the cc claiming it as their own. (This has now largely changed). I had one site (forgotten its name but it's gone now) who pulled my stuff (totally free) off SexySims and put it behind a paywall, even when I found this place it was through someone stealing my content. Someone uploaded my Sims 3 cc on BobbyTH's GND bodyshape to his own blog without asking, it was discussed here and uploaded elsewhere.

 

I share my experiences from over the years so people understand why custom content creators do what they do and have the TOU's they do. Those with stringent terms of uses have generally been ripped off in the past and are protecting themselves (or that's how they see it).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JohnnyES]

1 hour ago, 2cool4u_1 said:

I am not one of Noir's Patrons, so I cannot speak to any sold sims on Patreon. I have seen and downloaded FREE sims from her Patreon, and CC was not included. Just saying.

yep, all this is described in the Readme.txt that i already printed and posted here: patreons have the download with all cc included and non patreon download it with adfly and without CC's. 
Noir is doing strictly what R-lo was talking about in the OP but now its ok for her becouse Noir is a creator and aparently he is licensed to make profit from others content.

Thats why is hard to believe someone here is really worried about credits or respect to third party cc's, it looks more like greedy people fighting for patreons and using a lot of casuism to justify themselves. 

*im done with this thread because we are heading to nowhere and my language limitations are really pissing me off. have a nice day everyone.
 

[porkybork]

Here's a chart to describe how I see it:

 

Did you make ALL the CC provided in the DL? 

• Yes.
  • Cool. Feel free to sell it to people.
• No.
  • You don't own the CC, so don't sell it. Credit the creators of the CC you used and post it as a free DL.

Did you use ANY CC at all?

• Yes.
  • Refer to the above.
• No.
  • Are you selling it?
    • Yes.
      • Cool. Just make sure you follow the TS4 teams terms and make it free for everyone after 2 months (I think that's what they said).
    • No.
      • Cool. You've got nothing to worry about then.

Like, this isn't rocket science, guys. If you made it, it's yours and you can sell it as long as it's not indefinitely locked behind a paywall. If you didn't make it, it's not yours, so don't sell it as if it was. It's like if I gave you a painting for free, told you "don't sell this, and credit me if someone asks you where you got it from," and then you just sold it to someone after all that. That's a shitty thing to do, no matter who you are. It's fucked up when it happens to conventional and digital artists, and it's fucked up when it happens to content creators.

The whole "it's like getting mad at painters for using canvases and paint, so me selling CC that I didn't make is totally fine" is a stupid non-argument because 1) artists need to buy the canvas and paint themselves if they want to paint to begin with, just like how content creators need to buy a copy of TS4 and download a few programs to make CC; 2) people usually understand that you need to have the game first anyway for your stuff to work in the first place, so that's not an issue; 3) you're selling something that somebody explicitly told you not to sell. So, this isn't like "getting mad at painters for using canvases and paint," it's more like "getting mad at one painter selling another painter's work after they were told not to sell it. This is a red herring that contains a non-sequitur. By the way, the chart I made still applies here.

 

On a slightly unrelated note (because someone mentioned this earlier), is it really that hard to make a good looking sim? I mean, I've been doing this for a while now, and I'm sure I've gotten better at it, but I've never had that much trouble with it. It's probably not that unusual – I suck at building lots, personally – but is it a matter of not understanding all the functions in CAS, or is it just too time-consuming? If time's an issue, well, that's on you, I can't help you if you're just impatient; but if CAS itself is confusing for you, then maybe I should make a tutorial vid or something.

 

Anyway, I'm turning off notifications for this thread because I'm tired of getting notifications about people just arguing. See ya.

[R-Lo]

2 hours ago, JohnnyES said:

yep, all this is described in the Readme.txt that i already printed and posted here: patreons have the download with all cc included and non patreon download it with adfly and without CC's. 
Noir is doing strictly what R-lo was talking about in the OP but now its ok for her becouse Noir is a creator and aparently he is licensed to make profit from others content.

Thats why is hard to believe someone here is really worried about credits or respect to third party cc's, it looks more like greedy people fighting for patreons and using a lot of casuism to justify themselves. 

*im done with this thread because we are heading to nowhere and my language limitations are really pissing me off. have a nice day everyone.
 

 

 

You're boring me now so thats fine,

 

 

Noir's patreon is not created for the sole purpose selling sims. She is exclusively known for making clothing and furniture 

 

 

Translation: Noir does a lot more than look for cc to sell and pretty much the entire community knows that.

 

You're a fool if you want to claim any differently out of spite,

 

Of course there will be a difference in the treatment towards someone who spent a huge part of 10 years creating things from scratch and someone that only sells a folder of tray files with a folder full of others work,

 

I dont think translation is an issue here, what you have a problem with is the fact that im saying it... because i have a patreon.That's just a dumb attitude thing.

 

This does not exclude me from having an opinion at all,

It only gives me another perspective to talk from about a view that is shared by a lot of people, not just paid creators.