Patreon for sharing tray files... Is it acceptable to sell other people's mods??

[R-Lo]

16 minutes ago, parzysty said:

I often see mods with screenshots of sims who use other CC than that of its author. Are they also using other people's mods to sell their own? I always thought that downloading sims is a chore because now I have to visit 20 links of which 10 are adflies and the other 10 are from sims resource.

 

Including CC with the sim was the answer to adfly and not the other way around as you try to portray it. If I make a sim then no one is gonna bother downloading it if they have to go through 20 adfly links.

 

Dressing a sim up to preview a mod isn't selling that persons work or hijacking it, if anything we are promoting others work and often telling others where to find it, we are not re-uploading it,

 

Including cc is a way to beat adfly indeed but it doesn't solve the problem and just creates more wixsites than it banishes 

 

The irony of it all is that this all came about after patreon haters went around claiming that no creator owns their work, 

While trying to take down patreon and paywalls they created another where people are allowed to sell it while the actual creator gets nothing and zero exposure,

 

 

If the people selling sims were making the outfits, make-up, skin details, tattoo  and jewellery themselves or recoloring and linking to original meshes then I'd accept it as being more than charging others for game-play,

Assembling a sim is a part of game-play. It's the very first thing the game makes you do.

[JohnnyES]

9 hours ago, R-Lo said:

 

You don't even understand what you're talking about clearly, I wondered how long it would take for someone to play that irrelevant card,

Sex animation is made from scratch using 3rd party software, we're making these and converting them into the game,

A custom sim is a save file and not a mod,

 

I made the statement especially because I use patreon.

 

There's a gulf between the two practices so I am very much in a position to point a finger,

When you take a bunch of T-poses and turn them into living and working scenes then you may understand the absurdity of your comparison which is a self serving complaint due a misguided view that others time and efforts are somehow owned by LL before we even put mouse to pad,

 

By that logic, an artist does not own a painting in a gallery because he did not make the brush or canvess, 

Or you do not own the furniture you build because you do not make the tools or screws,

I'm sure you already get it, just the greed and entitlement for free porn blurs those lines.

 

If you're going to argue that time in CAS is the same as time in Blender and graphic design software then you need to gain a better understanding.

The most irrelevant card throwed until here is "You dont even understand" one. I would tell you that they put much time, effort and also use third part softwares in their "product" but I dont think that this should legitimate or not the monetization of anything based on the sims and that dont have any use outside the game.
I dont have nothing against people who uses paywall to be rewarded by the time and effort expended on CC's. The problem here is someone who also uses patreon pointing fingers. Dont make any sense to me. Let the customers decide if someone else's work worth their money or not. When you try to convince someone not to buy a product (very similar to yours) it sounds like you are just angry because you think they are eating a piece of your cake.

As you should have noticed english is not my main language but i hope you get the point here. Have a nice day.

[R-Lo]

34 minutes ago, JohnnyES said:

The most irrelevant card throwed until here is "You dont even understand" one. I would tell you that they put much time, effort and also use third part softwares in their "product" but I dont think that this should legitimate or not the monetization of anything based on the sims and that dont have any use outside the game.
I dont have nothing against people who uses paywall to be rewarded by the time and effort expended on CC's. The problem here is someone who also uses patreon pointing fingers. Dont make any sense to me. Let the customers decide if someone else's work worth their money or not. When you try to convince someone not to buy a product (very similar to yours) it sounds like you are just angry because you think they are eating a piece of your cake.

As you should have noticed english is not my main language but i hope you get the point here. Have a nice day.

Again, you miss the entire point of this discussion.

PEOPLE SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO PROFIT FROM THE RE-UPLOADING OF OTHER PEOPLE'S CC, IT PISSES OFF THE CREATORS WHO ARE MAKING THE STUFF, PAID OR UNPAID.

it's the unpaid creators that are suffering mostly due to this, they ask for nothing but feedback which is taken away because someone else decides to throw their work into a bundle, which they charge for,

 

All over TSR and other free sites, the terms and conditions boldy states NOT to re-upload or paywall their creations,

People often talk about how awful Pandora Sims is for stealing content and selling it, this is the same thing.

 

I hope I've made my thoughts clear enough.

[2cool4u_1]

I just want to clarify a distinction that I implied earlier, but never actually made. Just because someone uses a brush and canvas, it does not make them an artist. I have personally seen street artists who can paint photo-realistic portraits in a few minutes, and other "artists", which I believe, I could do better than when I was in first grade. Artists can use almost any medium, from canvas, to scrap metal, even garbage we put on the curb each week. I truly believe, that making sims can be a medium for art, and can be considered more than just game-play. I don't think I need to prove this as you can find a plethora of examples in "Share your Female/Male Sims" and "R-Lo's Photography Corner" threads, here at LL.

 

I would like to bring attention to one sim-creator; maudhuy (no paticular reason, just the first that comes to mind). Hopefully you recognize some of these sims;

Spoiler

Characters from "Riverdale"

 

Gwyneth Paltrow

 

Selena Gomez

 

Audrey Hepburn

 

(Young) Leonardo Dicaprio

 

Zhang Ziyi

 

Hermione Granger

 

Emma Stone

 

Anna Paquin

 

 

Vanessa Hudgens

 

Katie Holmes

 

 

There are many, many more. I grabbed all these pics off The Gallery (they're all posed, but not edited). Earlier work from maudhuy was all 100% Base Game (No CC, No EPs, GPs, or SPs).

 

FREE SIMS:

I consider maudhuy to be an artist, with a fair amount of talent. If maudhuy wants to charge for sims, and people want to pay for them, that's their business. There's no issue here, because maudhuy's sims are 100% CC-free. If you paid for these sims, what you'd be getting is strictly the artist's talent / ability to put together these sims. Yes, these sims are based off celebrities, who own the rights to their likeness, but that's a different discussion for a different day. For the record, maudhuy's sims are FREE from The Gallery.

 

PURCHASED SIMS:

Now, when sims are paid for that include other's CC, it's different. Why? There are many reasons. Let's suppose myself and R-Lo are musicians. R-Lo creates an amazing guitar solo and says "Here everybody, it's free". I use that guitar solo and put out a song, not free. When you pay for my song, you are getting more than just my work; You are getting R-Lo's work plus my work which is enhanced by R-Lo's. It would almost be like paying a director for putting together a movie, but not giving credit to the screenwriter, who offered the script for free.

 

FREE SIMS, WITH CC:

This is a bit of a grey area. As such, I don't want to get too much into this one. When I download a sim with CC, I think it's a great way to give the artist exposure. When I get new CC I like, I always do a Google search and see what else the artist has available. I realize, however, that while many do this, there are those who do not. On the flip side, I realize no one wants to go through 51 links, copying and pasting addresses into the address bar (sometimes, on TSR for example, there are only addresses and no actual links), so the sims don't get downloaded, and the artists receive no exposure.

 

Just for the record; I would never pay for, or sell. sims, but I have nothing against those that do.

[R-Lo]

@2cool4u_1 thanks for the pics, it's interesting to some cc free celebs and it's nice,

 

I agree with you on the whole but my main concern is the area in which people are using this artform to cash in on others work by uploading folders of content that they did not create which they expect to be paid for,

These mods are sold time and time again as the sim creators will have certain go-to cc for a signiture look or just used an older sim they made as a base for a new one while the cc creator gets less and less mentioned and zero royalties.

 

I am just finding it very odd that people are prepared to rally against the people who receive support via Patreon for creating the cc and mods, they say very shitty things about creators and in a lot of cases there is zero respect,

Then in the same breath, declare someone a hero for re-uploading this content behind their own paywall because they admit to be "too lazy" to play the CAS part of the game

[2cool4u_1]

I agree with you @R-Lo. I just wanted to make that distinction so that we can say, we realize at best the sim-creators are putting something of themselves in the sims, but what they are putting in is a small part in comparison. What they are providing from themselves is enhanced, and would not be as desirable, without the work of those who get no credit / profit (yet do MOST of the work - my director vs screenwriter example).

 

I too find it ass-backwards, that people tend to support these Patreon sim-creators, then oppose other Patreon owners (like yourself), who provide their own work, and are merely pointing out that what these sim-creators are doing is wrong.

[JohnnyES]

"I consider maudhuy to be an artist, with a fair amount of talent. If maudhuy wants to charge for sims, and people want to pay for them, that's their business."

No, that's the sims studio/EA business and nobody else is allowed to charge for any custom content of their game. Simguru Kate already clarify this question on the sims forum and twitter. The only exceptions goes to donations and "pay for early acess" thing but the content should be released for all within 2~3 weeks. All the content based on the sims should be made available for free.

[R-Lo]

2 hours ago, JohnnyES said:

nobody else is allowed to charge for any custom content of their game.

Their content isn't custom, it's organic to the game and called "default"

 

when someone customises it, then it becomes a mod,

Hence the term "custom content"

 

EA has given people the green light to mod and receive support for early access etc yes, and some are breaking the guidelines by keeping things exclusive or hoarding which is clearly wrong,

We already know this.

 

As I repeatedly say, this is regarding the new batch of paywalling where all of a sudden people are breaking every condition that is set by creators and free sites.

If a creator should not have the ability to earn from the hours/days spent building their mods, why is it ok for someone to earn from simply picking it in CAS and hitting save, export tray?

[parzysty]

14 hours ago, 2cool4u_1 said:

Let's suppose myself and R-Lo are musicians. R-Lo creates an amazing guitar solo and says "Here everybody, it's free". I use that guitar solo and put out a song, not free. When you pay for my song, you are getting more than just my work; You are getting R-Lo's work plus my work which is enhanced by R-Lo's. It would almost be like paying a director for putting together a movie, but not giving credit to the screenwriter, who offered the script for free.

That means all CC should come with a license from the author that should clarify wether it can be re-bundled by others or not. The problem is that all CC rightfully belongs to Maxis so you can't even claim ownership on your own content. Just like when you post something on Facebook, it belongs to Facebook now, you agreed to it when you clicked "I agree" on terms of service.

[R-Lo]

5 hours ago, parzysty said:

That means all CC should come with a license from the author that should clarify wether it can be re-bundled by others or not. The problem is that all CC rightfully belongs to Maxis so you can't even claim ownership on your own content. Just like when you post something on Facebook, it belongs to Facebook now, you agreed to it when you clicked "I agree" on terms of service.

 

Unfortunately we have no kind of official license and it's just left to common courtesy,

Probably 98% of the mods I've found have clearly stated:

 

 

Please don't not take credit for my work

Do not re-upload my creations

No paywalling or Adfly

when recoloring, do not include the mesh and please link to the original 

 

CC belonging to maxis isn't entirely true.

the package file format is the thing that they class as an asset, not it's contents,

 

What this means is that you cannot build your own game or software using this platform or structure, not that they claim rights to everyones codes or meshes/animations,

 

EA expressly denounces and denies any responsibility for custom content and the issues that it may cause,

 

 

as I say, I'm seeing that the mods were respected up until a certain point,

when people sought to take down patreon for a cc they wanted right now that second.

 

A member got a reply from Sim guru regarding a time limit for free releases which somehow was interpreted into "it's ok to share others content if they overrun the "schedule" of releases"

and somehow the freely uploaded content was rolled into this mess.

 

The fact of being able to freely shared others work made it more convenient for those who were sharing their Sims,

more people start to upload Sims as it's now easy because cc credits can be ignored,

 

Someone comes along with CSV Celebrity Sim Vault and wants money for the Sims they play with,

a bunch of people think it's a money maker and great to get paid to play Sims and be paid to hunt for cc, thinks if they can get away with it, I can too...

 

Basically we have a bunch of Pandora Sims wanna-be's, expecting money for content bundles while using tray files as their front/disclaimer,

eventually it'll spiral into people expecting to be paid for custom houses and calling themselves builders and architects, while leeching from an even higher number of artists work,

 

 

If anything, the EA may take more ownership in this respect, considered that the package file is an asset not it's contents, it would be interesting to find their views on selling save files.

 

 

 

 

[JohnnyES]

CC credits are not being ignored. You still having your name on the package files, logos, data, etc. its not like someone is pretending to be the creator of "your" content. Its just a reupload. i hope that sims 5 come with a gallery like steam workshop, this should stop all the drama about reuploads

[R-Lo]

1 hour ago, JohnnyES said:

CC credits are not being ignored. You still having your name on the package files, logos, data, etc. its not like someone is pretending to be the creator of "your" content. Its just a reupload. i hope that sims 5 come with a gallery like steam workshop, this should stop all the drama about reuploads

 

Again you miss the critical point of the discussion.

 

Either that or you're trying to state that it's fine for me to charge people to download something that you may decide to create and share for free in the future.

 

 

Let me know when you upload a mod or clothing you made, 

I'll put it on my Patreon under a chargeable tier,

Then we'll see how you feel 

[JohnnyES]

k, im just wating for the day when the comunity starts to sell houses on patreon as you said early, then i can try to sell my houses and you can reupload it as wish. i promisse i will not complain becouse its very clear to me that any of us own the sims neither tray itens, mods, scripts, videos, screenshots or CCs  that still being, as the name says, content of the game. Have a nice day.

[R-Lo]

20 minutes ago, JohnnyES said:

k, im just wating for the day when the comunity starts to sell houses on patreon as you said early, then i can try to sell my houses and you can reupload it as wish. i promisse i will not complain becouse its very clear to me that any of us own the sims neither tray itens, mods, scripts, videos, screenshots or CCs  that still being, as the name says, content of the game. Have a nice day.

 

No, not houses. Or Sims,

I mean actual content that you make and texture yourself then convert into the game.

Not a save file created in the game and exported with a bunch of other peoples mods.

[2cool4u_1]

15 hours ago, JohnnyES said:

"I consider maudhuy to be an artist, with a fair amount of talent. If maudhuy wants to charge for sims, and people want to pay for them, that's their business."

No, that's the sims studio/EA business and nobody else is allowed to charge for any custom content of their game. Simguru Kate already clarify this question on the sims forum and twitter. The only exceptions goes to donations and "pay for early acess" thing but the content should be released for all within 2~3 weeks. All the content based on the sims should be made available for free.

Dude. You quoted me, without quoting me. Is that to show you don't care about the source of content, or am I just reading too much into that? Either way, charging for sims, is charging for a service (because in this case no custom content is involved). If I go to your house and make a sim to represent you in the game, I can charge you for my services, and EA cannot dictate otherwise. Unless, EA says I cannot help you with your game, or If I do, I have to work for free. Having said that, I believe selling sims is allowed, but I don't agree with it. I think it's a ridiculous practice.

 

8 hours ago, parzysty said:

That means all CC should come with a license from the author that should clarify wether it can be re-bundled by others or not. The problem is that all CC rightfully belongs to Maxis so you can't even claim ownership on your own content. Just like when you post something on Facebook, it belongs to Facebook now, you agreed to it when you clicked "I agree" on terms of service.

CC does not have to clarify whether it can be re-bundled or not. However, it usually does.

 

"all CC rightfully belongs to Maxis": It sounds to me like R-Lo is saying "when you upload sims, CC should not be included, particularly behind a paywall". You are saying "CC belongs to Maxis, so CC should not be included behind a paywall, and if you consider sims to be CC, sims cannot be sold either." I am the only one saying "I believe it's okay to sell sims. However, CC should not be included." So basically, we all agree CC should not be bundled with custom sims.

 

EDIT: Just wanted to add; this discussion is not about whether it belongs to Maxis or the creator, it's about third parties making a profit from CC that does not belong to them.

[2cool4u_1]

I think the lines are getting a little blurry / confusing for some people because we're discussing free CC. Let me try to change that.

 

If I create the most awesome CC and charge $12 for it. Is it okay for you to buy it, then distribute it for free with your sims? What if I charged you $5? Does it change if I sell it for $0? The fact that CC is offered for free should not change the right of distribution.

[R-Lo]

We can't really stop people from recirculating cc, that's not the issue.

In some cases it's required eg. If the original source is taken down or broken link.

 

What I find unacceptable is when you look at a bigger picture,

If someone creates or animates through patreon, they are instantly classed as greedy and breaking LL rules by using it to advertise their wares and claim money for their "hobby"

Then in the same spectrum of views, someone who downloads here for free and then puts it behind a patreon of their own is doing great "work" and deserves support to continue re-uploading free mods,

 

It's a pretty dumb logic when you really think about it

[parzysty]

15 minutes ago, R-Lo said:

If someone creates or animates through patreon, they are instantly classed as greedy and breaking LL rules

Classified by who?

[R-Lo]

1 hour ago, parzysty said:

Classified by who?

 

A huge majority of LL users, not just in respect of Sims section,

Outside of LL, there are actual sites and forums dedicated to "sticking it to the Patreon creators"

 

This is a general view as I understand that some individuals, like yourself included, have been supporting creators on a financial level and motivational too,

But on the whole, most will claim that mods are something that they are entitled to and nobody should be able to earn from creating them.

[DoctaSax]

1. All mods are owned by the people who make them.

2. Unauthorized reuploads of mods are always wrong, patreon or not.

 

It's really quite simple.

[JohnnyES]

"If someone creates or animates through patreon, they are instantly classed as greedy and breaking LL rules by using it to advertise their wares and claim money for their "hobby"

Then in the same spectrum of views, someone who downloads here for free and then puts it behind a patreon of their own is doing great "work" and deserves support to continue re-uploading free mods,

"
From my perspective both are greedy and both are wrong. anyway, if EA who owns the whole game dont mind i think that nobody else can complain about it, especially if you play one of these roles. simple as that.

[R-Lo]

3 minutes ago, JohnnyES said:

"If someone creates or animates through patreon, they are instantly classed as greedy and breaking LL rules by using it to advertise their wares and claim money for their "hobby"

Then in the same spectrum of views, someone who downloads here for free and then puts it behind a patreon of their own is doing great "work" and deserves support to continue re-uploading free mods,

"
From my perspective both are greedy and both are wrong. anyway, if EA who owns the whole game dont mind i think that nobody else can complain about it, especially if you play one of these roles. simple as that.

 

 

Everyone is entitled to their own perspective of course, however you're not entirely correct,

As someone playing that role like you put it, I have every right to complain about it,

 

Thing is that I'm not even arguing for myself.

Nobody has re-uploaded my work anywhere to my knowledge.

I'm speaking up mostly for the guys sharing for free and giving up creating because nobody is actually the slightest interested in the effort made.

[R-Lo]

34 minutes ago, JohnnyES said:

EA who owns the whole game

EA owns the game,

They do not however acknowledge ANY responsibility towards custom custom content or script mods,

Therefore, they DON'T claim any ownership,

Hence their own disclaimer which basically tells you that if a mod breaks your game, they won't help you.

 

I'm not going to continue this back and forth as it's pointless derailing into the tired old same old when this thread has another purpose.

 

You came in to tell that I cannot point a finger, I'm telling you that your wrong.

 

With info, you now know more about my view as a creator that believes a fair line should be drawn that protects gamers and creators alike without anyone being ripped off in a variety of ways.

[Mariana Soprano]

Sometimes I m interested to see, what someone did create - but at Patreon you have to pay much often before you may see anything.

In Germany we call this "buying a cat hidden in a bag".

 

My question is mostly: Did this creators ever heard of something like "presentation" or WYSIWYG? ?

 

Forgot to mention, if the business with paysites (and the anger of the users) grows to big, EA will stop this.

 

 

[R-Lo]

37 minutes ago, Mariana Soprano said:

Sometimes I m interested to see, what someone did create - but at Patreon you have to pay much often before you may see anything.

In Germany we call this "buying a cat hidden in a bag".

 

My question is mostly: Did this creators ever heard of something like "presentation" or WYSIWYG? ?

 

Forgot to mention, if the business with paysites (and the anger of the users) grows to big, EA will stop this.

 

 

 

Hi Mariana!

You're not alone there, people have often complained in the past about not being able to see what's being uploaded on patreon without having to pay,

 

The problem is that adult content is forbidden to be displayed publicly for safeguarding reasons and to ensure that its filtered appropriately,

They are quite vigilant on this too and will "close page for review"

 

It's a double edged sword for creators as they leave pics and vid previews for public viewing and to ensure nobody is excluded but its seen as advertising with the creator being accused of breaking site rules etc yawn...

 

If people chilled out on the issue a bit more, we'd probably have a lot more freely visible previews being shown