Patreon for sharing tray files... Is it acceptable to sell other people's mods??

[R-Lo]

54 minutes ago, mrrakkonn said:

Damm, R-Lo you making me blush with all those words. 

 

I would like to correct you though, I actually use extensive references for mye sims' faces, though I sometimes end up tweaking those further off the original reference picture (always aim to get both view from the front and the side in order to get nose and chin fight) or from additional ones, so many of my sims are 'composites' of a number of different faces.

 

Anyway the trick is to accept that you probably wont get something that looks identical to your reference, and in any case that wouldn't be that interesting. The most unique sim faces always start out as ambitious failures.

 

No I remember that you talked about using references but what I'm saying is that they actually have been brought to life!

Like you see them all in party mode in the threads and you can see who is who and the personality comes through, and everyone has their fave!

 

[Neodarkside]

On 12/27/2018 at 3:51 PM, komotor said:

I can tell you that this kind of thing also happen on the Skyrim side and not since yesterday.
Many install only mods and believe be creators or artists.. ?
 

One just has to look at Naughty Machinima and Pornhub to see that, people uploading full videos of basically sexlab doing the work, they just control the camera. I've heard several started patreons asking for money to make more videos. Seen several using your own animations there too.

 

The thing about sharing tray files, especially on Patreon, many CC creators specifically say to not include their stuff. To me honestly its like stealing their work and getting paid for it, and thats why so many good CC creators are vanishing off the internet. Someone steals their work, posts it elsewhere and they throw their hands up in disgust and say screw it, I'm done, and their work is lost to others.

 

Me personally, I have a problem with Patreon. To many people make a single thing, 1 animation, 1 sim, 1 CC and instantly make a Patreon to hide all additional content behind.

[porkybork]

Agreed. This is something that I've noticed becoming more popular over time, and it's been bugging the hell outta me, so I'm glad someone's finally said something about this. And to be honest, I sometimes wonder if I may be a part of the problem to some extent with the release of "Porkybork's World."

 

I'm gonna put the rest of my post under a spoiler so that I don't draw attention away from the main topic of this thread unless people are curious enough to check. In it, I'll explain my rationale behind me making and posting "Porkybork's World."

Spoiler

Back when I uploaded my first makeover for the Goth household, I thought I was adding an improved version of the pre-made sims the TS4 team had made. Now I see that all I really did was move the sliders around and throw on some CC I thought would look good. Overall, I didn't actually add anything new to the Goth's, I just messed around in CAS until I was satisfied. Then I moved on to the other households and, well, now we have a whole .zip file full of remakes and other people's creations.

 

At some point during my makeovers, I started thinking back to the previous Sims games and how each one seemed to have its own overarching storyline. Even if they weren't front-and-center, they were still there – the Caliente sisters being part alien and possibly abducting Bella Goth, for example. Even if some of these story elements were added in after the fact by the devs to cover some coding errors or the fans looking into things too deeply, it added a sense of depth to the games that I missed in TS4; or, if they were there, they seemed too vague. So, I decided to add little synopses in the descriptions of each household that I made to try to add that sense of storytelling into the game. I took this even further by modifying each households relationships, careers, skills, aspirations, and traits.

 

Despite this, I still wanted each sim to feel like their own character, both in terms of appearance and personality. In other words, I wanted the Goth household to feel like the Goth household. This is why Bella Goth is still a secret agent and not a prostitute or something in the save file. I sometimes get people telling me that the sims in the vanilla game are all ugly and that they're glad I made what I did. While it's flattering, I can't exactly agree with the TS4 sims all being ugly. Sure, some sims could've been made to look better COUGHNinaCOUGH, but I think the look of TS4 is pretty charming, and I like the cartoony look of the sims and the landscape. It's a nice contrast from all the grey and brown realism I've seen in a lot of games in the past few years. Alas, I just prefer the "alpha CC" look. So, instead of my sims looking like cartoony dolls, they look like semi-realistic dolls.

 

But I always felt weird sharing folders with CC from other people. Sure, it was more convenient for the people who downloaded them, but I felt like I was taking attention away from the content creators, like I was taking advantage of them. The only way to clear my conscience while not making it harder for anyone to DL my files, I made a list of every content creator that I downloaded CC from, even if it was just one minor thing. That, and I chose not to use adfly or lock it behind a Patreon paywall, because I figured that would be just unethical at that point. How could I demand money for using things that I didn't even make? It actually makes me angry when people do this. Like, where do you get off using other people's content to make money for yourself? It's lazy and it's sleazy. Seriously, fuck you if you do that.

 

Anyway, I've decided to not share any sims outside of "Porkybork's World." One, because of the reasons you listed, and another because I think I'm already walking the fine line of making things convenient for people and taking advantage of content creators. Also, making sims from scratch is a major part of the game, and CAS is the best tool for sim creation in the whole series IMO. I feel like just giving people pre-made sims outside of "Porkybork's World" deprives them of one of the most enjoyable parts of the game (again, IMO). Or, idk, maybe I'm overthinking this whole thing and I'm just moralizing an issue that doesn't warrant it. 

TL;DR Making sims is fun, I like storytelling, and my own stuff makes me a little uncomfortable.

[R-Lo]

@porkybork

Apologies dude as I've overlooked you and your definitely in line with mrrakkon's efforts,

I wouldn't say that you're contributing to the problem at all,

You're sharing for free and made a healthy list of links, although cc is included you're giving people the help to find the other stuff these creators have made without having to pay for things they can DL for free,

Recreation of the game's population is an interesting idea and I gotta say that you're smashing it with the info your sharing with them,

Although we have mods and cc of all shapes and sizes it's just as special and important to see inspiration being shared too ?

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Neodarkside said:

One just has to look at Naughty Machinima and Pornhub to see that, people uploading full videos of basically sexlab doing the work, they just control the camera. I've heard several started patreons asking for money to make more videos. Seen several using your own animations there too.

 

The thing about sharing tray files, especially on Patreon, many CC creators specifically say to not include their stuff. To me honestly its like stealing their work and getting paid for it, and thats why so many good CC creators are vanishing off the internet. Someone steals their work, posts it elsewhere and they throw their hands up in disgust and say screw it, I'm done, and their work is lost to others.

 

Me personally, I have a problem with Patreon. To many people make a single thing, 1 animation, 1 sim, 1 CC and instantly make a Patreon to hide all additional content behind.

I know it lol... 
These guys know me pretty well.. And not in the good way...
I'm literally in war with some of them. And many people know that I'm not a tender.
 

[heartbeatsandbrainwaves]

Does anybody want to buy some of my Sims tray files off of me? Serious offers only.

[R-Lo]

2 hours ago, heartbeatsandbrainwaves said:

Does anybody want to buy some of my Sims tray files off of me? Serious offers only.

 

[B10HAZARD.]

How about...

 

 

?

[0wnyx]

On 12/28/2018 at 6:15 PM, Julie J said:

I don't believe in Tray files been sold on Patreon, only if they're packaged with Maxis/basegame content.

As a free cc creator I don't want any of my content uploaded with someone's sim and they're making the money from it and the cc creators not getting a penny.

It's the reason I have a no adfly, no Patreon policy with my custom content.

 

If I do want to start and make money I would set up Patreon myself. Making cc is just a hobby to me.

 

 

 

i guess this is the right mindset... the entitlement for getting paid for cc seems to be the problem too. if i simplify the issue for me... when you buy the game (sims)... all bets are off, as ea does not tax for mods, you can do as u wish, offer ur creations behind paywalls or not... i would see any income out of that(be it money or fame) as a bonus rather than entitled money that you need to max out.

 

speaking of making/having a solid income with mods, i guess we all see the consistent, dedicated and established uploads/modders... that will beat out any copycat.

the question is now, are the cc sims all in 1 download creators copycats, that occasionally want to make money for using other peoples creations ?

 

in my opinion no... if i remember correctly all mods were also available via download link... so it just speed up my time to download all links. and in case some of it was 2pay and you think you lost a money opportunity because i got it for free or paid for it, you are mistaken because i would just use another random all-in-1 sim

 

up to this day i may have downloaded about 10 sims because i did not had the time to create or edit a npc. its more about saving time than art theft for me.

 

 

[R-Lo]

34 minutes ago, 0wnyx said:

 

i guess this is the right mindset... the entitlement for getting paid for cc seems to be the problem too. if i simplify the issue for me... when you buy the game (sims)... all bets are off, as ea does not tax for mods, you can do as u wish, offer ur creations behind paywalls or not... i would see any income out of that(be it money or fame) as a bonus rather than entitled money that you need to max out.

 

speaking of making/having a solid income with mods, i guess we all see the consistent, dedicated and established uploads/modders... that will beat out any copycat.

the question is now, are the cc sims all in 1 download creators copycats, that occasionally want to make money for using other peoples creations ?

 

in my opinion no... if i remember correctly all mods were also available via download link... so it just speed up my time to download all links. and in case some of it was 2pay and you think you lost a money opportunity because i got it for free or paid for it, you are mistaken because i would just use another random all-in-1 sim

 

up to this day i may have downloaded about 10 sims because i did not had the time to create or edit a npc. its more about saving time than art theft for me.

 

 

 

 

It's not really a case of entitlement to payment for cc, a lot of people are sharing for free,

It's the fact that people are expecting to earn money from the effort of others while simply playing around in CAS,

 

Uploading Sims does not make someone a content creator,  a Sim isn't classed as content or an asset,

It's a save file that is uploaded with a blueprint and the content that creates the look is a combination of other peoples time and expertise/experience,

 

Understandably it's convenient to DL Sims with all content included but this should stay with being a matter of convenience or haste, 

Not as a business model which is subject to damage the motivation of others and only threatens to make them find new ways to restrict their work or just bow out altogether

 

[Julie J]

Thing is if you're using someone else's custom content to make your content, if you're a paid creator and using someone else's free content, you're making money off someone else's work which is wrong.

 

If you're making cc and putting it behind a paywall using a free creator's content, this isn't right at all ....

 

[Neodarkside]

5 hours ago, Julie J said:

Thing is if you're using someone else's custom content to make your content, if you're a paid creator and using someone else's free content, you're making money off someone else's work which is wrong.

 

If you're making cc and putting it behind a paywall using a free creator's content, this isn't right at all ....

 

Sadly it happens all the time, and its the biggest reason alot of CC creators pull their stuff off the internet. Someone steals it and reposts it as their own, or puts it on Patreon, or sometimes recolors it and reposts, either way, I agree, its not right. Just need to look thru the gallery and see 12 of the same house posted, one was the original, others are just slightly different or blatantly the same untouched.

[Vthena]

Since I'm one of the creator 'targeted' by this post I think I should paticipate.

Personally I don't feel like "paywalling" any CC. Mostly because, I don't own the CC and everybody if free to download it elsewere. I link all custom content used, and each user as to download it from the creator's page. Except for the face. Why ? Because some people don't care and just want to download a Sim that look like the picture. Without having the trouble to download everything by hand. (The CC I include is still linked.) I think it's fair and easier for everyone. But maybe I'm wrong.

 

It as been said that others are also sharing Sims on Patreon, I wasn't aware of this. (I mostly browse General Discussion, this must be why) And, to be honest I don't really care.

 

Quote

It's pretty much abuse of the scheme to expect support towards playing the game and after 10 or so Sims have been created it tends to become very samey and forced creativity while using the earliest made Sims as base Sims

I try my best to create a different Sim each time, with his own personality. But after doing more than sixty of them I must admit I start going round. And this isn't as fun as it was at the beginning. This must be why I'm more interested by animations now.

 

I plan to slowy go from Sims making to animations, starting January.

[R-Lo]

13 hours ago, LittleDoxy said:

Since I'm one of the creator 'targeted' by this post I think I should paticipate.

Personally I don't feel like "paywalling" any CC. Mostly because, I don't own the CC and everybody if free to download it elsewere. I link all custom content used, and each user as to download it from the creator's page. Except for the face. Why ? Because some people don't care and just want to download a Sim that look like the picture. Without having the trouble to download everything by hand. (The CC I include is still linked.) I think it's fair and easier for everyone. But maybe I'm wrong.

 

It as been said that others are also sharing Sims on Patreon, I wasn't aware of this. (I mostly browse General Discussion, this must be why) And, to be honest I don't really care.

 

I try my best to create a different Sim each time, with his own personality. But after doing more than sixty of them I must admit I start going round. And this isn't as fun as it was at the beginning. This must be why I'm more interested by animations now.

 

I plan to slowy go from Sims making to animations, starting January.

 

 

Hi Doxy!

I'm sorry if you're feeling targeted but I'm glad you're aware of the issue and thanks for adding to the discussion,

I'm understanding you completely and I see the various reasons for cc being included with Sims,

Obviously all efforts to link and credit creators are noted but this isn't where the issue lies,

 

Admittedly things have been a little nuclear and volatile since the whole "creators don't own their work" business and this is where the problem has stemmed from,

Originally it was demanded and followed that content was not included, now things have changed there are Mega Folders all over the web,

While people's mods are being re-uploaded all over the place it's been taking a lot of exposure and awareness away from them,

Now that people are looking to make money from that and it's becoming a trend, it upsets both gamers and modders,

 

I'm happy you're looking to build upon your profile and looking to produce content, your models are popular and that will help too!

 

I can imagine it's tough to make Sims month after month and that's kinda why I felt it needed to be said,

For your sake and others too,

I've made a lot of Simmies myself too and that's why I also experienced the same thing,

It becomes more and more difficult to make a Sim that doesn't look like another in the collection,

Especially when we end up with the certain go-to cc for a signiture look, 

 

I guess my ultimate motivation for the discussion wasn't so much to target people but to share a little insight to a bigger picture as I'm sure that no theft is intentional,

Same time, to raise some awareness to anyone considering starting up in this..... before we end up with another 20 people doing it over the next month after having got TS4 for Christmas!  ?

[Julie J]

Doxy, you're not been targeted, I apologise if you feel that way.

 

There's a reason I'm a little sensitive about the sims issue, I'm mainly known as a Sims 2 creator, been doing that off and on for the last 10-11 years.

People may have noticed I never ever share my sims and the ones I have now I've recreated for Sims 4 (Sims 3 reincarnations weren't entirely successful).

Back in 2008/2009 I created Nick and his family (you've all seen the darker side of Nick here) they were available for download and their story was available to read until the story got plagerised and the sims put in crappy music videos that you had to pay to watch because this person couldn't make sims and "liked mine more than his own."

 

The person did stop and lost the sims when their game crashed and then I stopped sharing sims and writing proper stories.

 

 

[heartbeatsandbrainwaves]

I actually allow people to include my CC, with credit! Yet, I've seen nobody who includes my files and gives me credit. It's a bit weak.

My TOU says you can't monetize my CC or derivatives, and a Sim made with my CC is something I would consider a derivative work. If you released a Sim for free it would be chill, but if you made somebody pay for it, then give me royalties. 

 

I'm serious. I'm willing to be a bougie asshole about this. You made money off a Sim made with my CC, give my royalties. I accept Ko-Fi. ☺️

[R-Lo]

1 hour ago, wild_guy said:

Generally I agree with R-Lo, custom sims is not that content that may claim payment. Of course if it's not a very outstanding one, I know some authors here on LL who really make oustanding sims which really can cause desire to pay for them. However this theme is not endless, I agree too.

 

Very good way to put it, 

It's not endless and is a project that can quickly become stale,

[2cool4u_1]

2019 -- HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!

 

I agree with the general consensus here. I have no problem with people selling sims. People can spend their money to buy whatever they want. I've even been asked to sell my sims to someone; To which I said 'No way, but I'll give them to you (ironically they were randomly generated NPCs).' My problem, is when people sell sims with CC. It particularly bugs me when I've seen a lot of that CC's TOU states: no re-uploads or modifications. If the seller sells sims with links to the CC creator's site, it becomes more of a grey area. I still disagree with it, UNLESS the CC creator knows of it and gives their permission (I have only seen this 1x, but the sims were free).

 

One argument that bothers me A LOT is that packaging CC is a way to preserve it from being lost on dead sites. This is a major contributor to sites going dead. If creators don't get traffic and feedback, they feel there is no purpose in sharing their content. To give a crude example; I could go down to the market, setup a stall and give away used clothes. If maybe one person comes, I'd feel like it's not worth my time and effort to share (even though I don't mind doing it). Creators stop sharing and let the sites go dead, because they feel like not enough people care to make it worth while. That says nothing of depriving them of motivation and inspiration to continue, or feedback to improve and grow. As for the preservation of CC, I say fine. That's when you make an effort (a real effort) to hunt it down on a new site (as creators often move). Only if you can't find it anywhere, state that on your site, and post it for download with full credit. I understand that's not a perfect solution and still presents problems, but I think it's the least you could do.

 

[Xenon93]

The truth is that you are very right, R-Lo, although that has made me think the following.

 

It is true that many people who spend time in something to share want to gain benefit over time because it is something that we usually like the community and the "creator" of it. Therefore, I think that the creator must either share a certain percentage of the profit for using his mod, since it is the original creator, and the same to the person who wants to share the sim since it is the main problem that many people are focused However, this could create a lot of controversy and difficulty when it comes to sharing benefits, at least as I see it.

But, I also think that, although a creator of sims shares its content, it does not stop being a time used, if there are people willing to enjoy with only that little "difficulty" that is only to create your sim (either very well created with all details that are several hours or a simple sim). Therefore, if there are people willing to prefer and value those small details should be rewarding for the will of that person who enjoys what he has done although it is not "normal" that is the fact of making a complex and elaborate mod that IF it is truly an external software and not something that is within the game that you just have to spend a little time.

 

Having said that, I do not know if I have expressed myself clearly but as a personal opinion and said briefly, even if a sim created by the game is simple or complex it should be rewarded by those people in the community who do care about that little effort, at the end and after all, it is the enjoyment of oneself and if another person achieves it, no matter how small it may be, it is not a bad idea to give him a coffee miser, and another part of the profit by distributing it with the creators of the used mods.

I know it sounds difficult and even something silly, but you can always reach an agreement without creating controversy, for example, there will be people who probably only care that their mod is shared no matter who wins something except the mention of the creator and the link, others will want to earn some money either because they want it or because they deserve it for having made a complex and successful mod, etc.

 

Having said that, I thought to dedicate myself to doing some mod but for lack of time, if I GOT TO CREATE something it would be either sims (there comes the patreon theme), or some residence. In fact I have a residence created that under my point of view has been very well elaborated that I would like to share and that the community will enjoy it. It is not finalized yet, I have spent more than two months dedicating myself to her in my free time, and taking advantage of this theme about the patreon, if I came to create patreon I would upload this site for free and some sims that I feel like creating. The only difference is that it would not be a constant content creator being probably the solar and some sims the only content that would rise there. The function of the patreon would be simply as a donation for the contribution. However and I finish, after the last thing I just said, I would not do it for the simple fact that my site contains a tremendous variety of external mods such as paintings, sculptures and a lot more decorative elements. Imagine the hell that would be to find the link of each mod and mention the author ... nor would I find 100% of the mods used, it would take another 2 months ... thats the main problem to dont share it, as long as I do not publish all my folder of mods xD. Greetings to all.

 

PD: Sorry for my English, many parts of the text were made by google translator ^^"

[TabooGood]

Making Patreons for sharing sims gives me that "reaction community on Youtube" vibe. Without other peoples content they wouldn't have anything to show and while I haven't seen theese peoples Patreons I doubt that they credit the creators whose CC they use.

 

Also, it's such spammable content they upload. This on its own doesn't necessarily mean you can't make money of it but it feels kinda shitty. Imagine if everyone on the Gallery wanted you to pay for every household of pregnant teens etc

[JohnnyES]

"This whole 'patreon for sims' thing is pretty ridiculous as you're stepping on each others toes while not actually owning the rights to anything, it's all based on other peoples work and cc"

Its funny when these words come from someone who also use patreon to make profit while not actually owning the rights to anything, your animations are based on others peoples tools, art and game. You re not in position to point your fingers at someone else's face.

[R-Lo]

5 hours ago, JohnnyES said:

"This whole 'patreon for sims' thing is pretty ridiculous as you're stepping on each others toes while not actually owning the rights to anything, it's all based on other peoples work and cc"

Its funny when these words come from someone who also use patreon to make profit while not actually owning the rights to anything, your animations are based on others peoples tools, art and game. You re not in position to point your fingers at someone else's face.

 

You don't even understand what you're talking about clearly, I wondered how long it would take for someone to play that irrelevant card,

Sex animation is made from scratch using 3rd party software, we're making these and converting them into the game,

A custom sim is a save file and not a mod,

 

I made the statement especially because I use patreon.

 

There's a gulf between the two practices so I am very much in a position to point a finger,

When you take a bunch of T-poses and turn them into living and working scenes then you may understand the absurdity of your comparison which is a self serving complaint due a misguided view that others time and efforts are somehow owned by LL before we even put mouse to pad,

 

By that logic, an artist does not own a painting in a gallery because he did not make the brush or canvess, 

Or you do not own the furniture you build because you do not make the tools or screws,

I'm sure you already get it, just the greed and entitlement for free porn blurs those lines.

 

If you're going to argue that time in CAS is the same as time in Blender and graphic design software then you need to gain a better understanding.

[parzysty]

R-Lo you're way waaay off. No one's forcing you to pay for custom sims. I, for one like LittleDoxy's work because I can't make good looking sims for shit. Ironically, there is much less sim creators who can make good looking sims than animation creators. If someone can make a sim that looks like a real-life person that's a skill worth paying for.

 

Those two have over 150k downloads combined. That's a lot for something so "easy" ?

[R-Lo]

You're misunderstanding @parzysty

It's fair enough if people want to make Sims for others but they shouldn't be selling other peoples content which is exactly what this practice is and nothing else,

I'm not directing this at the freely shared Sims, only Patreon exclusive or early access.

 

Making a porn-star and sending her out to work is a play-style, it would be like if I start charging people to see my pics and videos

 

It is IMPOSSIBLE to achieve this level of sim creation by using PURELY base game assets,

Without the source of other peoples content this would collapse or be nonexistent.

Many creators have abandoned their own freely shared projects or were drawn towards adfly etc because of this therefore it's proving harmful to future creation,

I understand this as it would upset me if my download traffic was hijacked and robbed of feedback which we don't get a great deal of,

 

Also as a gamer who enjoys and creating Sims, I find that my inspiration, motivation and satisfaction relies heavily upon the cc I find and it's quality

 

[parzysty]

1 hour ago, R-Lo said:

It's fair enough if people want to make Sims for others but they shouldn't be selling other peoples content which is exactly what this practice is and nothing else,

I'm not directing this at the freely shared Sims, only Patreon exclusive or early access.

I often see mods with screenshots of sims who use other CC than that of its author. Are they also using other people's mods to sell their own? I always thought that downloading sims is a chore because now I have to visit 20 links of which 10 are adflies and the other 10 are from sims resource.

 

1 hour ago, R-Lo said:

Many creators have abandoned their own freely shared projects or were drawn towards adfly

Including CC with the sim was the answer to adfly and not the other way around as you try to portray it. If I make a sim then no one is gonna bother downloading it if they have to go through 20 adfly links.