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More Bandit Camps - EtR Patch


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2 hours ago, AVS said:

This run was started from the same save point that I used to start the run in the previous report, so that at least seems to rule out this stuff being due to things getting baked into a save. It does rather look like the CK is just seriously fighting your changes for some damn reason.

Yes it does, and I don't know why.  Its a very simple change, there are no scripts or anything involved so I'm not sure what the issue is.  I'll look at it again today and tweak it some more.  When you looked at the last update I posted here, you should have seen two map markers.  One is directly over the fire and if you open it it should be checked as "Initially Disabled"  That's the old map marker.  The other marker is the new one I added to fix the problem you were having.  If you open that one and got to the Linked Ref tab, it should have a reference to a nearby heading marker.  That heading marker is where you should land when fast traveling (that's how that's set up btw, its really a very simple thing to do, and that it is so simple and somehow these changes appear to be being overriden by the MBC file is really puzzling me).  If the old map marker hasn't been disabled then I've got to figure out why and also how its overriding my changes (and btw, if its the case the original marker isn't disabled then technically you should have two map markers for that camp virtually on top of each other).

 

Wait a sec... you and Karl are both using the original MBC file after renaming it, right?

 

Okay... I *think* I may have figured it out.  Well, I may have figured out how to fix it, I still don't understand why it was a problem in the first place.  My first thought was that maybe the map marker in the original MBC and the one in the explorer MBC didn't have the same RefID, but after loading both up in TES Edit and comparing, they do have the same RefID.  So that left me with the problem that for whatever reason its not updating the map marker despite my changes.  So I thought about what I'd done different at Camp Redfox vs the other camps I've done.  The main difference was I'd left the original map marker in its original spot, but the other camps I had parented the original map marker (and in fact the entire original camp) to an Xmarker and flagged that disabled.

 

So that's what I did with Redfox.  I placed an Xmarker just outside the camp and named it CampRedfoxDisable  Then I parented the original map marker and the original camp fire (cause I'd replaced it with a different one to match my ground texture changes) to that Xmarker.

 

Then I made another new map marker, set the radius to 1000 (so you should "discover" it about the time you get to the stockade) and linked that to the heading marker where you should land when fast traveling.  So if you had discovered it previously, the marker should have disappeared again (which at least tells us something is working).

 

Jumped in game and tested, it works for me, but then so did the other stuff.  I'm still very puzzled as to why was not working for the two of you and all I can figure is it has something to do with you using the original version of MBC... but I can't explain why that made a different.  Welcome to the CK Zone... que Twilight Zone music.

 

That's it.   That's got us back to where we started, only with some cleaned up grass and navmesh. 

 

The only explanation I can think of at this point is that somehow, in switching to the Original version of MBC it was not updating the change to the map marker.  I can't explain that, it has the same RefID and so should have been flagged as changed and updated by my patch, TES Edit shows that as well.  But for some reason that I don't understand, Skyrim and CK weren't agreeing.    If it doesn't work, I'm fresh out of ideas.

 

So... one more time... into the breaches!

 

EtR MBC Camp Patch (explore).esp

 

Quote

 

Planning to check out Wakefield later after I get some work on my own project done. Pretty sure I know which one you mean, now, and yeah, that one certainly needed to get moved off from where it was. That spot was already too busy. The camp that's just sorta plopped down on the road to Riften near the sawmill could also use some work, for similar reasons.

 

 

The one in Riften is Camp Birchwood, so I'll pencil you in as one vote for Camp Birchwood.

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14 hours ago, karlpaws said:

Well apparently I can't just start a new game, I just at the starting screen with the menu gone, music playing in the background and nothing else happening.

 

I can open the console and coc qasmoke or load a save if I made one by name but I just end up with a plain black screen.  I can use the console to qqq and relaunch Skyrim and load a game.

 

 

Sorry to hear.  Do you have a lot of script heavy mods running at game start?  If so, try disabling some of them and then re-enabling after making your first save.  Too much script load can cause that (basically the game runs out of memory or threads to use and gets stuck).  That's one possibility.

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1 hour ago, EinarrTheRed said:

Sorry to hear.  Do you have a lot of script heavy mods running at game start?  If so, try disabling some of them and then re-enabling after making your first save.  Too much script load can cause that (basically the game runs out of memory or threads to use and gets stuck).  That's one possibility.

I don't think any are too heavy but that was my next step... what I always run into is the logic of what goes early and what goes late for non-looted mods. I'd rather not enable 5 mods and move half my load order so I need to understand what goes late or what matters little going late.

 

I suppose Sexlab and SL Anim Loader don't overwrite or get overwritten by anything they can be anywhere.

 

I'd vote for Birchwood as well.  Sometimes chasing a fox they'll attack the mill and then tend to attack the orcs and giant when that happens which just leads to bodies being randomly all over.

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2 hours ago, EinarrTheRed said:

Yes it does, and I don't know why.  Its a very simple change, there are no scripts or anything involved so I'm not sure what the issue is.  I'll look at it again today and tweak it some more.  When you looked at the last update I posted here, you should have seen two map markers.  One is directly over the fire and if you open it it should be checked as "Initially Disabled"  That's the old map marker.  The other marker is the new one I added to fix the problem you were having. 

 

Yeah, when I had that version open there were two markers there, right next to each other. 

 

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The 7687 I presume to be the original marker, while EA39 was the new one? The latter's position pretty well corresponds to where I was getting dropped by the fast travel. 

 

Tossed the newest revision on to give it a quick test, but I'm afraid it's still not doing the fixed fast travel. Everything else is working right, but it's continuing to drop me into the middle of the camp. Just at a slightly different point. 

 

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Figured I might as well open this one up in the CK and see if there was anything obviously off. I don't really know what I'm looking for as far as landscape stuff goes, so I just checked the Linked Ref tab you mentioned. Found the original marker floating above the camp and the new-new marker (1551) inside of it and also corresponding exactly to where the fast travel dropped me, but neither of them had anything listed in either of the 'Linked' tabs. 

 

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The original also wasn't marked as disabled, but I didn't notice any double-markers in-game. I did find the X-marker you mentioned, but it also didn't have any listed links. Going back and checking the parent tabs on the old map marker showed that the X was enabled as a parent, though, I guess that part is working. 

 

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Looking around in the view window (god I hate the controls for that thing), I did manage to find a heading marker that I'm presuming is the one you're intending to use as the drop point. It's marked as 000FB33C, but the only thing I can find it linked to in its reference info is another heading marked as 000FB33C. Either the CK ate whatever's supposed to link it to the map markers, or I'm not looking in the right spot. 

 

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For what it's worth, I'm using the regular MBC Explorer's Edition .esp file right off of Nexus, no renaming or conversions or whatnot involved. 

 

I also wouldn't have any personal objections to you just doing a full replacement of that .esp instead of a patch, especially if it makes stuff like this easier to deal with. Nor, for that matter, to a complete rebuild of Redfox itself, especially not after seeing it inside the CK here. Four zones for that little thing? Seriously? 

 

2 hours ago, EinarrTheRed said:

The one in Riften is Camp Birchwood, so I'll pencil you in as one vote for Camp Birchwood.

 

Yeah, that one always just confused me. I mean, it's not even remotely hidden, and there's a guard patrolling around right there at the mill. The idea of a camp that's just been set in amidst the aspens isn't bad, but there's plenty of more secluded and empty spaces that it could've been in down by the southern mountains or in the woods across the lake. Where it is now really only makes sense for a non-hostile camp, set up by hunters or something. 

 

There's probably a few others I could raise objections to, but that's the one that's most firmly in mind aside from the ones you already moved. 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, karlpaws said:

I don't think any are too heavy but that was my next step... what I always run into is the logic of what goes early and what goes late for non-looted mods. I'd rather not enable 5 mods and move half my load order so I need to understand what goes late or what matters little going late.

I use Wrye Bash. so for me its just checking or unchecking a box, my load order doesn't actually change just whether those particular mods are loaded (well technically it does... and it doesn't, but that's splitting hairs).  When I start a new game, I have things like Defeat, MNC, PAHE, HSH, AYGAS, and SOS all disabled by just unticking the box.  Then after I've made my character and gotten through the first part of a Helgen start where I'm in the tower (but before I fight anyone) I save, re-enable those mods and reload, wait for things to update and set my preferences and after that I'm usually good to go.  The Imperial Captain that you fight in that tower is usually my first slave!  LOL   Try to cut my head off bitch, extra lashings for you!

 

I don't use Alternate Start anymore, I suspect it was causing some other issues (though I never could pin it down for sure) so I can't say about that.  But if disabling script heavy mods doesn't work, I'd try doing a start without AS:LAL and see what happens.

 

But anyway, that would be my first bit of advice. 

2 minutes ago, karlpaws said:

 

I suppose Sexlab and SL Anim Loader don't overwrite or get overwritten by anything they can be anywhere.

I have them in the upper part of my load order.  You could try re-running FNIS, sometimes even though you've built the animation files they either get corrupted or there was an error and re-running it again can clear it up.  I don't think that's what your problem is though, that usually either causes T pose or CTD.

2 minutes ago, karlpaws said:

 

I'd vote for Birchwood as well.  Sometimes chasing a fox they'll attack the mill and then tend to attack the orcs and giant when that happens which just leads to bodies being randomly all over.

So two for votes for Birchwood, one for Frostcliff.   And one vote for "everything". ?

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39 minutes ago, EinarrTheRed said:

I use Wrye Bash. so for me its just checking or unchecking a box, my load order doesn't actually change just whether those particular mods are loaded (well technically it does... and it doesn't, but that's splitting hairs).  When I start a new game, I have things like Defeat, MNC, PAHE, HSH, AYGAS, and SOS all disabled by just unticking the box.  Then after I've made my character and gotten through the first part of a Helgen start where I'm in the tower (but before I fight anyone) I save, re-enable those mods and reload, wait for things to update and set my preferences and after that I'm usually good to go.

I use MO, and it shows the list of mods and their index number so when I enable or disable stuff it all shifts up or down and that's what I'm worried about.  Now, if I don't have to worry about that I could disable Sexlab and a couple other masters to try things but I was looking over my list trying to figure out what I've added since last making a new game and came to the conclusion I might have removed something I need by accident and that's causing some issues.  Oddly I can load a save, now quite screwed up because I removed the 5 armor mods I merged and a half dozen other mods trying to get things working, and I might just have to put some of the other stuff back in and go with that for a while.

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Okay, first off thank you for being so detailed and going to so much trouble.

 

8 minutes ago, AVS said:

 

Yeah, when I had that version open there were two markers there, right next to each other. 

 

93647781_ScreenShot07-10-19at08.17AM001.jpg.235021189c58fb00cd20292ac19c83d3.jpg1784877021_ScreenShot07-10-19at08.17AM002.jpg.12d70f50edbec7c6e39ca8be79211041.jpg

 

The 7687 I presume to be the original marker, while EA39 was the new one? The latter's position pretty well corresponds to where I was getting dropped by the fast travel. 

Correct, so for some reason now your game is reading both as having been changed to Camp, it wasn't before.... what the heck?

 

The original map marker from MBC is XX007687. and I moved it so should be floating up in the air.

The new one should be in front (north) of the campfire and should have a RefID of xx011551 

 

8 minutes ago, AVS said:

Tossed the newest revision on to give it a quick test, but I'm afraid it's still not doing the fixed fast travel. Everything else is working right, but it's continuing to drop me into the middle of the camp. Just at a slightly different point. 

 

1493946557_ScreenShot07-10-19at12.17PM001.jpg.8de4678ed6705e4ef975eb2f40504d3b.jpg1317115536_ScreenShot07-10-19at12_18PM.jpg.497833623043ede28913e42edfc5f092.jpg

 

Figured I might as well open this one up in the CK and see if there was anything obviously off. I don't really know what I'm looking for as far as landscape stuff goes, so I just checked the Linked Ref tab you mentioned. Found the original marker floating above the camp and the new-new marker (1551) inside of it and also corresponding exactly to where the fast travel dropped me, but neither of them had anything listed in either of the 'Linked' tabs. 

 

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The old marker shouldn't be linked to anything, but it should be enable parented to an Xmarker  RefID xx011550 and that marker should be flagged intially disabled (and anything parented to it will also be disabled).  You should be able to look on the Enable Parent table of the original map marker (XX007687) and it should show it as being parented to that map marker.  I suspect it is if you are dropping onto the map at the new map marker location when you fast travel.

 

The new map marker (xx011551) should, on the LinkedRef tab, be linked to a Heading Marker that is also in the same cell (-21, -4; AACampRedFox01) and its RefID should be XX02052B, its just north of the camp near a low ridge and a bush between it and the camp (to give you some cover from being spotted when you arrive).  I have the same esp I just uploaded open in CK and that link is there, so I'm really puzzled as to why its disappearing.  Usually that would mean a missing master file, but MNC is still listed as a master... grrrrr.

 

8 minutes ago, AVS said:

The original also wasn't marked as disabled, but I didn't notice any double-markers in-game. I did find the X-marker you mentioned, but it also didn't have any listed links. Going back and checking the parent tabs on the old map marker showed that the X was enabled as a parent, though, I guess that part is working. 

 

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Okay, so that part worked... so why isn't the fast travel working.  GAH, this makes no sense.  LOL

 

8 minutes ago, AVS said:

 

 

For what it's worth, I'm using the regular MBC Explorer's Edition .esp file right off of Nexus, no renaming or conversions or whatnot involved. 

Okay, couple points, first, here's the a screen shot from CK about the heading marker and then I'm going to try an explain just why this is so fragging WEIRD.

 

Spoiler

Redfox01.jpg.8b45f46e1ee304570f378ed0dee716d5.jpg

 

Okay, circled the heading marker the map marker *should* be linked too.  Put it there so the player has some cover when they land... I'm just nice like that. ?

 

Now here's where we join Alice down one very weird rabbit hole of stuff that shouldn't be happening and shouldn't be possible... but yet it is.

 

First there's the original map marker.  Now according to what you've shown, it is enable parented to the Xmarker I just added, and that is disabling both the original map marker and the original campfire.  Now if anything was going to go wrong, this should be it... cause what I'm doing is affecting something from one mod with my mod... and that can be glitchy especially when the original mod is also an esp.  You have to be very careful about adding masters back and stuff or it breaks.  But its working... great... but that just makes the next part even weirder.

 

Its weirder because that heading marker, and that new map marker ONLY exist in my patch mod.  I added both.  So adding masters, modifying stuff from other mods... all that glitchy mess... should not even matter here.  I'm linking one object placed in my mod to another object I placed in my mod... simple stuff.  Yet somehow, even though in my esp it shows as being linked, when it gets to your computer... it isn't linked anymore.  An I've no idea how that's even possible.

 

That is some serious twilight zone stuff right there.  Especially considering that I have done the same thing at all the other camps, and those links are all working fine.  So why is this one NOT working... makes no sense. ?  I suspect daedric influence.  An the worse part is I have absolutely no idea how to fix this... how do you fix something that shouldn't be happening in the first place?   I'm gonna think on it, cause this is REALLY bugging me.

 

Moving on....

8 minutes ago, AVS said:

 

I also wouldn't have any personal objections to you just doing a full replacement of that .esp instead of a patch, especially if it makes stuff like this easier to deal with. Nor, for that matter, to a complete rebuild of Redfox itself, especially not after seeing it inside the CK here. Four zones for that little thing? Seriously? 

This is a conversation I've been putting off, but yeah... that's probably exactly where this project is headed eventually.  I'm kind of at an odd point.  The thing is this project started just to move Camp Steadwatch to resolve some conflicts there.  The guy who makes Pirates of the North was waiting for me to get off my lazy butt and post it on Nexus so he could link to it as a solution for that particular problem (he only had to wait 10 months for me to get around to it... oops).  But its been growing since then.  MBC, in all, adds 30 bandit camps to the map, I've redone four of them and added one new original camp (technically, Redfox would need to be completely relocate, so not counting it).  It takes me anywhere from 3 days to a week to relocate and rebuild a camp, not counting beta testing time, so figure averaging 2 camps per month.  That's 12-13 months to fully rebuild the mod and eliminate the original as a dependency.  I may eventually do exactly that, rename all the camps, eliminate any unique NPCs (or at least rename them) or any other original content from the MBC so that I'm not "stealing" anything of his... I'm just particular about that, I don't like infringing on what other people have done.  So until I can do a full rebuild, I kind of have to keep the original as a dependency, at least for now.  Plus, don't forget the other big reason I started this project, and the main reason its grown... SBC, so figure in time for Blackbird to adapt SBC to detect my changes as well.

 

An yeah, its always fun when someone locates something right at the corner of four cells.  But fortunately I'm very comfortable with exterior navmeshing so it doesn't bother me.  I probably ought to write a tutorial on that, I dare say I'm pretty good at it at this point.  He could have moved the camp over entirely into cell -21, -4 and had the whole camp in just one cell and still been pretty much at the same spot.  Ah well, shoulda coulda woulda... but didn't.

 

8 minutes ago, AVS said:

 

Yeah, that one always just confused me. I mean, it's not even remotely hidden, and there's a guard patrolling around right there at the mill. The idea of a camp that's just been set in amidst the aspens isn't bad, but there's plenty of more secluded and empty spaces that it could've been in down by the southern mountains or in the woods across the lake. Where it is now really only makes sense for a non-hostile camp, set up by hunters or something. 

 

There's probably a few others I could raise objections to, but that's the one that's most firmly in mind aside from the ones you already moved. 

 

Yup, my thoughts exactly.  There's a spot on the other side of the bridge, just north of Dark Light Tower but before you get to the road where they'd be in a depression that would actually conceal them from the road while still being quite close (close enough to aggro if you make noise fighting a bear on the road for example).  I was thinking of moving it to that spot (cell 35, -27 IIRC).  I'd just have to disable some animal spawn markers and it'd work fine I think.  If you walked (quietly) down the road you could walk right past the camp and never see it.

 

Something else I may do soonish is post some of my "secrets" about the camps I've build, with each one I tried to build in possible strategies a player could use, back ways in to the camps, weak points, blind spots, etc. that player could exploit when attacking.  I like encouraging and rewarding players who play smart.  So for example, there is a legit back way into Camp Steadwatch that requires no fighting to get to, and puts you in a really good spot to snipe at the entire camp.  Couple of sneaky tricks with Camp Snowfall, and some notes about Ilinalta's Overlook and exploiting the ledge.  Wakefield Cave has a lil carve out under the ledge you can use to avoid the noise makers and hide from the guard on above.

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2 hours ago, EinarrTheRed said:

 

  Hide contents

Redfox01.jpg.8b45f46e1ee304570f378ed0dee716d5.jpg

 

Okay, circled the heading marker the map marker *should* be linked too.  Put it there so the player has some cover when they land... I'm just nice like that. ?

 

 

 

 

Oooookay, I think I see the root of the problem. Well, the top of the root, anyway. I had been assuming the heading marker past the rocks to the to the northwest of the camp was the one you were talking about, as it was the only one that was popping up as being in the area of the Redfox zones. I did notice that it didn't have the same modlist number in its ID as the other stuff you placed, though, and had a thought that there might be some disconnect happening because of that. But if it's supposed to be to the northeast, in the space between that pine shrub and the Night to Remember giant's spawn point, then the problem is that the CK completely ate it. 

 

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Those shots are from the most recent version of the patch .esp you posted up-thread, and there's no sign of that heading marker there. And of course if that gets vanished, then all the links to it on the map markers get vanished as well. 

 

WHY the hell it's vanishing- the rest of that root- I couldn't even begin to guess. 

 

 

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Like I said... I suspect daedric influence.  ?

 

Seriously though, give me a few and I'm just going to replace that heading marker with a new one.  Re-link stuff, and then we'll see if that works.  But yeah, this should not be happening, far as I know shouldn't even be possible.  But, I say that at least 3 times a day when working mods so... par for the course with CK really.  I blame Todd Hines (at this point, why not?)

 

---------

 

Well I'll be hornswaggled!  Turns out that Heading marker was placed by MBC, but he didn't use it for anything and I did.  Why you aren't seeing the heading marker in CK, I dunno.  But I just placed a new one in the same spot and linked it, *should*(1) work fine now.  So there we go... just another day modding in CK... ?  I still suspect daedric influence. ?

 

(1) should work in CK / Skyrim is not a binding statement, offer void in some parts of Tamriel and most parts of Oblivion.  Subject to daedric influence and the alignment of the stars.

EtR MBC Camp Patch (explore).esp

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8 hours ago, AVS said:

This run was started from the same save point that I used to start the run in the previous report, so that at least seems to rule out this stuff being due to things getting baked into a save.

3 hours ago, AVS said:

The 7687 I presume to be the original marker, while EA39 was the new one? The latter's position pretty well corresponds to where I was getting dropped by the fast travel. 

 

Tossed the newest revision on to give it a quick test, but I'm afraid it's still not doing the fixed fast travel. Everything else is working right, but it's continuing to drop me into the middle of the camp. Just at a slightly different point. 

how much is baked into a save is still a mystery to me as well so the fact you've found both markers in the ck, but only landing at the original shows you can't rule out save baking just yet

2 hours ago, EinarrTheRed said:

I also wouldn't have any personal objections to you just doing a full replacement of that .esp instead of a patch, especially if it makes stuff like this easier to deal with. Nor, for that matter, to a complete rebuild of Redfox itself,

for testing purposes, i'll message you both a merged copy from tesedit for you to recheck your changes and if correct, retest...if not, resend to the other for retesting

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22 minutes ago, EinarrTheRed said:

1) should work in CK / Skyrim is not a binding statement, offer void in some parts of Tamriel and most parts of Oblivion.  Subject to daedric influence and the alignment of the stars.

lol..and my message doesn't include that latest fix you made either

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7 hours ago, EinarrTheRed said:

Like I said... I suspect daedric influence.  ?

 

Seriously though, give me a few and I'm just going to replace that heading marker with a new one.  Re-link stuff, and then we'll see if that works.  But yeah, this should not be happening, far as I know shouldn't even be possible.  But, I say that at least 3 times a day when working mods so... par for the course with CK really.  I blame Todd Hines (at this point, why not?)

 

---------

 

Well I'll be hornswaggled!  Turns out that Heading marker was placed by MBC, but he didn't use it for anything and I did.  Why you aren't seeing the heading marker in CK, I dunno.  But I just placed a new one in the same spot and linked it, *should*(1) work fine now.  So there we go... just another day modding in CK... ?  I still suspect daedric influence. ?

 

(1) should work in CK / Skyrim is not a binding statement, offer void in some parts of Tamriel and most parts of Oblivion.  Subject to daedric influence and the alignment of the stars.

EtR MBC Camp Patch (explore).esp 562.25 kB · 1 download

Well as part of rebuilding, I used this patch on top of the renamed MBC mod and since you're starting with the Explorer version your camp marker isn't visible at the start but when I discovered it, a couple feet from the posts, I was able to fast travel back to it.

 

I did travel to the bush near the outcrop a little distance away, so that's working.

 

The only other thing I haven't mentioned, but probably should have, is that in the camp there is an apprentice mage that attacks the bandits.  How intentional is that?

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1 hour ago, karlpaws said:

Well as part of rebuilding, I used this patch on top of the renamed MBC mod and since you're starting with the Explorer version your camp marker isn't visible at the start but when I discovered it, a couple feet from the posts, I was able to fast travel back to it.

 

I did travel to the bush near the outcrop a little distance away, so that's working.

 

The only other thing I haven't mentioned, but probably should have, is that in the camp there is an apprentice mage that attacks the bandits.  How intentional is that?

Last item first:

It wasn't intentional on my part, but it seems to perhaps have been on the part of Skillest.  I've noticed that the locations he picked for many of the camps are on top of or very close to wilderness encounter spawn points.  I could only speculate as to why he did that.

 

I imagine AVS will get the same result, now that I know what was happening I also understand why it was happening.  Its one of the funky glitchy things regarding using an esp file as a forced master.  There are some things you can't do, and one of them is make a reference link to an object placed by a forced master esp, which is exactly what I'd tried to do without realizing it thinking I had placed that heading marker there.  You also cannot disable or delete objects placed by another esp, but you can enable parent them to an object and then if you set that object to be disabled it disables all the other stuff anyway.  Pretty odd set up and its on a list of weird things about the TES engine, things you can't do and it makes no real sense why you can't.  Just how it is.

 

Ever onward.

 

Meanwhile I'll post an official update soon and then next week maybe get started on the next set of camps.  Might try to do three, and completely relocate Redfox while I'm at it.  Depends how ambitious I'm feeling and how much free time I have.

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Got home from work and tossed the latest fix on, and can also confirm that everything now seems to work as intended. All the marker fixes work normally, and fast travel drops me down behind that shrub instead of the middle of the camp. No more Angry Redfox.

 

990788112_ScreenShot07-11-19at07_29AM.jpg.cc9eabd33a92c14ddcc68b19a092ff6c.jpg616076533_ScreenShot07-11-19at07.29AM002.jpg.a9cd24872ce24e73bbd7ec9aa13fa5c2.jpg

 

Also got around to checking out the revamped Wakefield while I was at it. I really appreciate the explanatory journal entry.   ?

 

6 hours ago, EinarrTheRed said:

I imagine AVS will get the same result, now that I know what was happening I also understand why it was happening.  Its one of the funky glitchy things regarding using an esp file as a forced master.  There are some things you can't do, and one of them is make a reference link to an object placed by a forced master esp, which is exactly what I'd tried to do without realizing it thinking I had placed that heading marker there.  You also cannot disable or delete objects placed by another esp, but you can enable parent them to an object and then if you set that object to be disabled it disables all the other stuff anyway.  Pretty odd set up and its on a list of weird things about the TES engine, things you can't do and it makes no real sense why you can't.  Just how it is.

 

I was wondering if it might be something like that when you mentioned that the marker had been repurposed from MBC, as I'd stumbled into issues with trying to source stuff from other .esp files only to have it up and vanish in a similar way during my own early fucking around with modding. Figured there was something weirder going on since I saw that you had successfully roped other MBC elements in with the map markers, but that's a pretty obnoxious set of restrictions. It also seems like something the program should throw an error box up over when you initially try to do it instead of letting you do all the work involved and then making it all go *poof*, but I guess that's just crazy talk. 

 

Not gonna lie, the Creation Kit itself is a large part of why I've mostly stuck to outfit mods. Getting those into the game is at least mostly straight-forward. Finding out the ass-backwards way the weapon models work so I could add a few damn near gave me a migrane. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, AVS said:

Got home from work and tossed the latest fix on, and can also confirm that everything now seems to work as intended. All the marker fixes work normally, and fast travel drops me down behind that shrub instead of the middle of the camp. No more Angry Redfox.

 

990788112_ScreenShot07-11-19at07_29AM.jpg.cc9eabd33a92c14ddcc68b19a092ff6c.jpg616076533_ScreenShot07-11-19at07.29AM002.jpg.a9cd24872ce24e73bbd7ec9aa13fa5c2.jpg

 

Also got around to checking out the revamped Wakefield while I was at it. I really appreciate the explanatory journal entry.   ?

 

Awesome, I'll post the update on the download pages later today.  The journal was a fun bit.  There's another at Ilinata's Overlook.  Just having some fun linking game events and added content in a lore friendly way.  I thought about adding a note to one of the vampires in Shriekwind, a letter from the missing Liesl to her father, but never got around to it.  Might go back an add that later.

1 hour ago, AVS said:

I was wondering if it might be something like that when you mentioned that the marker had been repurposed from MBC, as I'd stumbled into issues with trying to source stuff from other .esp files only to have it up and vanish in a similar way during my own early fucking around with modding. Figured there was something weirder going on since I saw that you had successfully roped other MBC elements in with the map markers, but that's a pretty obnoxious set of restrictions. It also seems like something the program should throw an error box up over when you initially try to do it instead of letting you do all the work involved and then making it all go *poof*, but I guess that's just crazy talk. 

 

Not gonna lie, the Creation Kit itself is a large part of why I've mostly stuck to outfit mods. Getting those into the game is at least mostly straight-forward. Finding out the ass-backwards way the weapon models work so I could add a few damn near gave me a migrane. 

 

 

Yeah, soon as I realized I hadn't placed that heading marker it all clicked.  I honestly thought I'd placed it and this might be the only camp where Skillest had placed one.  I don't think he set up fast travel markers at any of the other camps.  Something I'll pay closer attention to in the future.  It slipped my my beta testers and me, and that's mostly my fault.  But we got it sorta and its all good now.

 

Gear and outfits and importing meshes into Nifskope is something I still don't understand.  I'm just starting to learn to import an obj mesh into Nifskope and then put it in game.  I tried with a bed and ended up breaking stuff.... badly... like... CTD on load badly.  LOL   I know it was something I did wrong with the collision stuff, I just need to go back and read the docs on that again and figure it out.  Once I do I can start importing custom meshes and making new props, building sets, furniture, things like that.  I very much relate to the migranes with CK.  LOL  I think anyone who's done much modding would.

 

It would be nice if they gave you error warnings but it won't because part of the weirdness (and part of why it slipped past me) is that you can link to objects from another esp, even delete or disable them and it will continue to work even after saving and reloading your esp.  Its only once it goes to someone elses computer that the links get stripped out.  The reason for that, as best I can tell, is that when it goes to another computer they have a different load order and that alters the RefIDs (the first two numbers) and since its one esp linking to another esp that has been made a forced master, the TES engine doesn't know what to do with that "unnatural" situation and strips out the links.  I suspect, but haven't tested, that if you changed the load order on your own game, it might also break the links (otherwise I'd be hard pressed to explain why the links work on the creators computer, but not elsewhere).  This would not be true if the original esp was made a proper esm master file, then we'd be fine.  Bethesda probably could have built in a warning about this stuff, but probably didn't think to cause they likely never imagined we'd be forcing other esp files as master files.  I think we modders likely do a lot of stuff they never imagined.

 

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Great to see you giving this some more love, @EinarrTheRed , thank you! ?

 

As to suggestions for other camps needing work or relocation, I'll throw my vote behind Camp Cloverhedge, the one tucked way up behind Lost Valley Redoubt, beyond and down the hill from the crumbly tower with a Hagraven in it. There's no pathing/navmesh for NPC's to enter or exit the camp on their own, followers can't accompany you into it, Captives whether freed or enslaved cannot leave. :/

 

The camp may have been set that way on purpose to keep the bandits from aggro'ing on the Hagraven in the tower or possibly any of the Forsworn in the Redoubt itself, but it still seems an odd place for a camp of bandits with no other way to access the road but thru all those Forsworn. As I recall the player themselves can come up behind the camp from the other side but requires some crafty jumping up the rocky hill that NPC's cannot perform anyway. 

 

Perhaps a different path could be laid out down that back way to give access, but that still leaves the camp in an awkward place that close to a Hagraven and an entire valley full of Forsworn, so relocation might be the better option, whatever way is easiest for you to work your magic ?

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Very welcome!

 

Cloverhedge is another one that really needs to be relocated.  The existing camp is navmeshed but the navmeshing is broken as you've discovered.  But beyond that I have a problem with the camp's location.  Just how did a bunch of bandits manage to build a camp in the backyard of a heavily fortified Forsworn camp with no other way out?  I think that spot would be better used expanding the Forsworn / Hagraven encounters.  I have scouted out what I think would be a good new location in the Reach, it overlooks the main road to Markarth and has direct access to it so it would make sense both for bandits but also for SBC (and it would mean captives would have a clear path to exit and head to Markarth or where ever.  The new location would still give them good concealment, a strong fortified spot so it would make sense how they've survived in the middle of Forsworn territory, and it would still offer a chance for players to get the upper hand if they were really clever (I like including those features whenever I can).  So that one is definitely on my agenda.

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36 minutes ago, tuxagent7 said:

You You You  ....

 

Fantastic man !  What a great idea that you had with that new camp.

 

Made a new game and man that was great, good location,

 

Trying to write without being a spoiler, a fun WTF moment :)

An quotes like that are exactly what I was hoping for. ?

 

Remember to search these camps thoroughly, I tend to hide stuff all over the place and include lil easter eggs sometimes.

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I can give a positive report on the NEW camp. Serana was able to hop down from the ledge to the roof and then down to the boss cabin. I'd cleared it out earlier as it was the target of a fetch quest so I'll have to try that again later.

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I think this weekend I'll post a "spoiler" discussion about the new camps, some of the features and strategies in building them, sneaky back ways into some of the camps, etc.  Next week I'm going to start work on updating Camp Frostcliff and moving Camp Birchwood (and if things go well and quickly I might even tackle relocating Camp Cloverhedge, but no promises).

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  • 1 month later...

So, I found a happy little surprise related to the "new" camp.

 

Spoiler

If you come at the camp from the west, either from Brittleshin pass or just along the coast from Illinalta and come up to the camp from the boat landing, a lot of the bandits will see you and come rushing out that side.

 

If you're in werewolf form, you can sprint up the hill past them and then spin and either double power attack or forward power attack and launch them down that rather steep hill. The weaker ones will flat out die from the falling damage and the others will either get hurt or just be far enough away that you get a second or three to eat anyone you killed at the top of the slope.  If you have to, there is that nice rock ledge that sticks out for further flinging.

 

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  • 1 month later...
45 minutes ago, abcd99 said:

FYI, More Bandit Camp (either version) has its ESP file name renamed to MoreBanditCamps.esp. So, that change breaks this mod. This is MBC v2.6 (March 2019 edition) for Skyrim SE. FYI.

Probably the simplest fix is to rename the ESP. That works for the LE version to make the version with map markers work.

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  • 2 weeks later...

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