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I feel so weird asking this, but do you guys think Dunmer circumcise?


nopenopenope1

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It would probably be something that might get mentioned in some book in the game, and in passing, at that. Not sure if such a thing actually does get a mention anywhere, though. Otherwise, I don't know how odd it would be to define something like that, when there are...technically worse things mentioned otherwise, such as Molag Bal's title of the King of Rape being a lot more explicit, and much more in the forefront. But some mention of a culture's views on such an intimate detail? Nope. 

 

Personally, I like to think that while it might exist in the setting, it would still be quite rare. 

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First of all... The Tribunal are loosely based off of Hindu gods, not Jewish beliefs and this has been confirmed by Micheal Kirkbride. All similarities to jews are pretty vague. Their names may sound either jewish or assyrian, there is a promised-land sort of story, and lastly a story with some messianic undertones. None of this is specifically unique to jews, though it is characteristic of the culture.

 

Second... No. Dunmer do not circumcise unless explicitly stated in lore. People need to learn the difference between "have parallels" and "are identical even in the detail." Circumcision is a specifically abrahamic thing. (Except for post-victorian USA wierdos continuing their strange children's anti-masturbation campaign.) Do Dunmer eat matzo balls? Do Dunmer celebrate a holiday called Passover? Of course not.

 

Is it possible they have some sort of wierd, similar body mutilation ritual? Yes, but if the lore doesn't state it, there's no reason to assume it any more than the matzo balls.

 

Bonus: OG Vivec.

 

 

tsomw_mw_lord_vivec.jpg

ardhanarishvara_wa74.jpg

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1 hour ago, Ernest Lemmingway said:

No, it's not. Circumcision dates back as far as Ancient Egypt and was/is common among many African tribal cultures as a rite of passage to manhood. It's common among Semitic peoples but not exclusive to them.

 

As for the OP, the answer is, maybe. Those Dunmer tribes that can't bathe on a regular basis may practice circumcision as a way of treating or preventing phimosis (a disease that prevents the foreskin from pulling past the glans). This is likely true for the Ashlanders and even members of the Great Houses that dwell in areas far from natural springs or the ocean.

Congenital phimosis is not a disease. 96% of males are born with it, and it naturally resolves itself in 99% of these cases by age 17. Its failure to resolve itself (separate from the development of true phimosis, below) has nothing to do with bathing. Rather it has to do with stretching of the skin, which naturally happens during, eg, regular cleaning. It is also true therefore that, for example, neglectful mothering (wash your child's damn peepee with the rest of the child, mom, it's not a sin) might contribute to it due to lack of stretching, much like wiping your butt and sticking your finger in your eye will contribute to infections, assuming you didn't have your eyelids surgically removed to deprive germs of a healthy, moist area. A puritan mindset that guilts children for touching "naughty" areas will also naturally lead to more of this, as well.

 

True phimosis (which you are more likely thinking of) is also not a disease, rather it is the result of extremely poor hygiene causing actual scarring that makes the congenital phimosis unable to naturally resolve itself, because scar tissue does not stretch.

 

Also, while it is true that there are some odd exceptions here and there, compare the blue areas on these two maps and you will immediately see that what I am saying about circumcision being an abrahamic thing is correct. The first blue is circumcision, the second is the prevalence of muslim faith. (Jewish males constitute 1% or less of circumcised population, muslims about 80%, and US males constitute a large part of the rest.)

 

 

Global_Map_of_Male_Circumcision_Prevalenenglish-muslim-population-world-map-perc

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You'll get no judgment here for wondering about Dunmer dicks!

 

I, personally, don't think there's any basis within TES lore for circumcision.  It is, first and foremost, a method of sexual conduct control.  Its sole purpose as a cultural norm is to lessen sexual gratification, particularly with masturbation.  Religions are keen to dress it all up and try to give it further significance, but it doesn't change the core of the practice.

 

None of the cultures within the TES universe exhibit such puritan ideas about sex, sexuality or express masturbation as being taboo.   I would, however, make an argument for genital piercing or other adornment being of cultural significance to Dunmer.

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This is the kind of thing that the folks at Bethesda likely would have answered without hesitation back in the day. It is unfortunate that you did not ask them about this in the late 90s or early 00s judging by the content of their earlier games (especially Daggerfall).

 

I know that I bugged a few creators way back when with my letters then e-mail asking about minutia regarding their fictional races biological functions and all of them were obliging enough to respond. Granted, I knew to use careful language and not too ask about topics which I knew would cause them discomfort so I kept it to surface level details,behavior and culture.

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Oh boy, time to write a lot more about a fictional hypothetical than is even remotely necessary.

 

I think I remember reading a thing a while back, likely not even accurate but still, that was saying circumcision might have originally become a practice integrated into religious tradition because of the locations those cultures originated from.  Namely, they tended to be hot, dry and dusty.  So like was mentioned before, this theory runs on the idea that circumcision started as a hygienic thing, eliminating a potentially problematic fold of skin that has the tendency to get a little... swampy.  In a location where irritants can often get blown up your tunic (a whole hell of a lot of men of the ancient world wore tunics or similar garments) and water is maybe not a resource you can always afford to use to wash dirt sand out of your foreskin, maybe just slicing the almost completely useless skin flap off will be a reliable way of alleviating some suffering and help prevent an infection.  

 

If we go by that logic, and the knowledge that Morrowind and Dunmer society was inspired to a greater or lesser extent by ancient civilisations like Mesopotamia and Assyria. SOME dunmer may circumcise.  Given that Chimer were a group of Aldmeri descendants, and Aldmer were from Summerset, a beautiful and lush island nation, it's unlikely circumcision would be part of that culture.  Good old Morrowind, though, is dotted with swathes of dry, volcanic zones where ash is more common than water.  Chimer settlers would have ended up adopting new practices to make life easier in their new environment.  Where water was abundant, or permanent bathing facilities could be established and made available to the public, hygiene was probably a pretty manageable thing.  For the Ashlander nomads, thorough, full body bathing was probably less common since, as their name suggests, they spent a great deal of time wandering the ash wastes of Morrowind, and given the choice I'd rather drink my limited water and be alive and dirty.

 

If we keep going with the same theory, the peoples in the Elder Scrolls that might have come to practice circumcision would likely be the Redguards of the Alikr desert and Ashlanders, as they are both desert dwelling nomads and by extension personal hygiene would be a different matter than it would be for city dwellers.  Even then, people with permanent homes and access to bathing facilities but still living in dry, windy and dusty areas would still have to deal with irritating ash, dust or sand blowing into places you don't want it (boiled netch leather and chitin helmets in Morrowind, as well as chitin helmets in Skyrim, were both full face helmets with no openings, just goggles to see through).  So even without a religious influence, if we assume circumcision is more sanitary than the alternative in these types of locations, it could reasonably have occurred in Dunmer society, as well as Redguard and IN THEORY also Khajiit since Elsweyr is also a significant amount desert, though that would depend on how cat-like their penises are.  If they have a more animalistic sheath it might be better at keeping stuff out.  And if it isn't better, would such a procedure be possible on that kind of organ?

 

Anyway, like it's been said up there, there's no in game reference to it.  Odds are it's not even something the devs ever considered, but if we think of old traditions as having their roots in practical things that were just really good for making life easier/safer/more comfortable in an ancient world where you took whatever of those things you could get, it's not at all unfair to say "Dunmer could practice circumcision".  If your headcanon is "dunmer are circumcised" then yeah, that's all good and perfectly reasonable.  It'd make less sense to say the Atmoran descended humans (Nords, Imperials and Bretons) developed the practice as well, since none of them dwell in similar locations, and even Atmora is described in game as having once been a perfectly habitable, warm land before something changed and it became a frozen hellhole kind of like most of Skyrim is.  The only logical reason they might would be cultural influences from neighboring cultures.  Of course, that's all running on the assumption that circumcision was developed for health and comfort reasons while living in desert locations.

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The only problem with the explanation regarding deserts and hygiene is that it falls short because there are deserts spread throughout the world, but circumcision is concentrated in a cultural area, rather than a geographical pattern. Not only that, but most claims in favor of circumcision, especially hygiene needs, are just myths or old, poor studies.

 

For instance, it's much harder to keep a circumcised baby from developing a bad infection than an uncircumcised child: Suddenly you have an open wound near an area that produces feces in a child with an undeveloped immune system. If someone can't wash their child on a semi-regular basis, you expect me to think they can handle that? Or consider that humans evolved from animals, so no body part that required special care would survive evolutionary pressures.

 

Or are you saying that people that happen to be in muslim areas of the world have hygiene that is so much poorer than all other human beings, including those living around other deserts, that they therefore have special needs to the point of mutilation? Much of current medical research, with the exceptions mostly in the USA (incidentally, insurance pays for it there), disagree that circumcision should be done, and some medical researchers go so far as to consider it a violation of a child's rights.

 

The one reason I know that children are circumcised for which actually holds true is in the case of female circumcision in Africa: it makes women "more virtuous," read: less likely to engage in unfaithful behaviour. Naturally, because removing the clitoris takes a lot of enjoyment out of sex, just like removing the foreskin causes the glans to be desensitized and makes the behaviour of masturbation more difficult. Come to think of it, this is probably very desirable in a culture where it is considered sinful to let "your seed spill on the floor" rather than in a vagina... incidentally it was also called a "remedy" for masturbation when it became popular in the US, as well. No medical records indicate any sort of disease epidemic prior that would necessitate widespread surgery on baby genitals.

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Alright, I wasn't going to go full historian, but misinformation bugs me.  As does genital mutilation.

 

The hygiene and desert argument is absolutely bogus.  It's been delegitimatized by historians for decades.  For one, circumcision wasn't "law" in pre-Islamic areas until the birth of Mohammed in 570 AD.  Whats more, Muslim and Jewish populations at the time were actually far more hygienic than their Western counterparts.  There was cultural significance to frequent bathing.  Whereas, in European countries (before Catholicism jumped on the mutilation wagon) circumcision was virtually unheard of and they thought bathing would friggen kill you.

 

The cleanliness myth started with Greek historians who were harshly mocking cultural habits of Egyptians circa 450 BC. 

 

Philo--a Jewish philosopher-- in 45BC is the first known, fully documented account of circumcision being specifically to reduce pleasure.  "The legislators thought good to dock the organ which ministers to such intercourse, thus making circumcision the symbol of excision of excessive and superfluous pleasure." 

 

This is further supported by Maimonides--a Jewish physician--in the 12th century in Guide for the Perplexed, which says injuring the penis was a test of faith to discourage sexual indulgence. 

 

Even in the 15th century, Jacopo Berengario da Carpi--an anatomist--had already defined the foreskin as the most sensitive--and significant to sexual pleasure--portion of the penis.

 

During the English revolution in the 1650s, extreme Puritan sects start mutilating little boys in fanatic adherence to the Old Testament.  At this time, the practice is still illegal.  

 

1685 Aristotle’s Master-piece was a published sex manual that states the motility of the foreskin is the main source of sexual pleasure for men.

 

1716 was when it all went wrong.  The publication of Onania in England led the populace to believe that masturbation was not only sinful, but unhealthy.  It came about in an era of religious fanaticism and started an era of butchering little boys.  Doctors started claiming it was a "scientific fact" that masturbation is physically and mentally harmful and encouraged removal of healthy tissue.  The republication of Onania in Switzerland fed the spread of information throughout Europe.

 

In 1830, a French physician named Claude-Francois Lallemand specifically prescribes circumcision as a masturbatory preventative.  Suggests circumcision in all young boys.  The idea catches on like wild fire in Britain and among Puritans in the Americas.

 

In the mid to late 1800's, clitoridectomy is suggested "treatment" for female hysteria and masturbation.  Many adult women are mutilated in Europe and America.  This becomes widespread in institutions that, at the time, were grossly over represented by women.  This is the era that saw vaginal fumigation as a "treatment" for mental disorders that were thought to be female in origin.

 

By 1860, circumcision is more or less medical "law" in Britain and America.  You won't find a single English speaking doctor who doesn't insist upon it in this era.  It is expressed as mandatory for physical and moral health.  It becomes standard to remove the foreskin on newborn infants.  Widespread mortality from this practice is undocumented.

 

1867, Britain bans clitoridectomy as it is almost always performed on adult women without their consent.

 

1870, in the US, Lewis Sayre fans a resurgence of Lallemand's claims that circumcision treats polio, epilepsy, syphillis and masturbation.  Equating self gratification to a disease.  The same decade, Kellogg (yes, that Kellogg) urges circumcision to be done without anesthesia.  Saying that the horrible pain will help cement the idea of punishment for masturbation in the minds of infant boys.

 

1890, Britain, sees the first wave of anti-circumcision.  Herbert Snow MD publishes The barbarity of circumcision.

 

1900, circumcision propaganda spreads to Australia.

 

By 1940, 75% of baby boys in US cities are circumcised.  With, or without parental consent.

 

In 1946 the British National Health Service institutes flat rate payment for family doctors.  Procedures not considered free fall in use.  Including circumcision which falls to 10%.

 

In 1950, Joseph Lewis publishes a full condemnation of infant circumcision; In the Name of Humanity.  This era sees Douglas Gairdner also publish medical journals correcting misinformation about phimosis.

 

1955, Australian circumcision peaks at 90%.

 

1962, National Women's Hospital opens in Auckland.  Circumcision is not performed as a default, misinformation is not propogated.  Rates fall in NZ.

 

1965, The Rape of the Phallus by WKC Morgan is published, making it the first criticism of circumcision to be published in a US medical journal.

 

The next decades see a rapid decline in circumcision and spread of actual medical information about its practice.  It is, however, still far too common, despite numerous studies in recent years pointing out the irreparable harm to the child's psyche and body.

 

And there ya go, more than you ever wanted to know about circumcision. 

 

TLDR; Dunmers would not circumcise

 

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Okay, I admit my sources are flawed. I've deleted my previous posts since I'm clearly off track. If folks want to discuss whether circumcision is a form of real life genital mutilation or some other misinformed medical practice, please take it to another thread. This is supposed to be about whether a fictional people practice it.

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2 hours ago, Ernest Lemmingway said:

If folks want to discuss whether circumcision is a form of real life genital mutilation or some other misinformed medical practice, please take it to another thread. This is supposed to be about whether a fictional people practice it.

Well, they asked about a practice that has a specific, expressed purpose within the real world.  A purpose that is not mirrored within TES.  So examining it's origins as a concept is kind of necessary.

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It's only anecdotal, but I know several men who've had to have circumcisions in adulthood for medical reasons. Not one of them has ever said they've felt reduced pleasure or sensation (and yes, they've been asked).

 

This doesn't disprove the claim that SOME men experience less sensation due to circumcision, but it does demonstrate that that the claimed effect is by no means universal.

 

Also something something Dunmer.

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2 hours ago, JackBikwik said:

Well, they asked about a practice that has a specific, expressed purpose within the real world.  A purpose that is not mirrored within TES.  So examining it's origins as a concept is kind of necessary.

Yes, fair enough. But let's not focus on the idea of it reducing sexual pleasure. Or anything else that European-descended, Christian "doctors" claimed it was a cure for. The practice is referenced in hieroglyphics at Saqqara as early as c.2300 BCE, 1800 years before even Herodotus and 2300 years before Philo. Why it was practiced, that's one thing no one is sure of. Why it's still practiced is largely cultural in nature. I'm drawing a very firm line between circumcision as an elective surgical practice and genital mutilation as an involuntary procedure. In the latter case I'm not including parents who circumcise their infant sons. That's not for me or anyone else besides those directly involved to judge.

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Oh wow, didn't expect this topic to take off. Very interesting discussion, tbh. I'd have  to say, I wish they had made it "official canon" (lol) that Dunmer don't generally do that sort of thing, and it's nice seeing comments generally saying it's either "possible, but not certain" or "absolutely not" here, with constructive insight. Maybe it's an Orsimer and/or Redguard thing, instead.

 

Edited to add: Redguards as they're mostly based off North Africans, and Orsimer since many cultures nowadays still practice it "to prove one's manhood" like the Xhosa or Filipinos, because apparently you're "not a real man" unless you have it done. And it's fitting with Orcs' machismo.

 

Although now I feel a bit weird inside. I didn't, uh, really want to... think about Teldryn's dick, or the dicks of Windhelm refugees. Or Neloth's. But making this topic accidentally made such thoughts not crossing my mind impossible since I'm an avid Skyrim player... ha ha ha.

 

Double edit: Lemmingway is probably correct in that we probably shouldn't focus on the sexual repression aspect of circumcision. At least, not too much, however real life people are writing Elder Scrolls lore, so it's not unreasonable to assume some real-world concepts, like purity, would have influences on the fictional universe. Especially with them implying that Vivec forbade anal sex (ahem!), and that's still a bit taboo irl even now.

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On 11/02/2018 at 12:19 AM, nopenopenope1 said:

Oh wow, didn't expect this topic to take off. Very interesting discussion, tbh. I'd have  to say, I wish they had made it "official canon" (lol) that Dunmer don't generally do that sort of thing, and it's nice seeing comments generally saying it's either "possible, but not certain" or "absolutely not" here, with constructive insight. Maybe it's an Orsimer and/or Redguard thing, instead.

 

Edited to add: Redguards as they're mostly based off North Africans, and Orsimer since many cultures nowadays still practice it "to prove one's manhood" like the Xhosa or Filipinos, because apparently you're "not a real man" unless you have it done. And it's fitting with Orcs' machismo.

 

Although now I feel a bit weird inside. I didn't, uh, really want to... think about Teldryn's dick, or the dicks of Windhelm refugees. Or Neloth's. But making this topic accidentally made such thoughts not crossing my mind impossible since I'm an avid Skyrim player... ha ha ha.

 

Double edit: Lemmingway is probably correct in that we probably shouldn't focus on the sexual repression aspect of circumcision. At least, not too much, however real life people are writing Elder Scrolls lore, so it's not unreasonable to assume some real-world concepts, like purity, would have influences on the fictional universe. Especially with them implying that Vivec forbade anal sex (ahem!), and that's still a bit taboo irl even now.

The likelihood that Beth make definitive canon pronouncements about Dunmer dicks seems.... low.

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18 hours ago, Ernest Lemmingway said:

Really? Is that in one of the books in Skyrim or do I need to replay Morrowind? I don't remember hearing about that.

The books in Morrowind are surprisingly graphic at times for something bearing a T-rating. There is one describing a tryst had by Vivec in one of his hermaphroditic aspects as part of an act of creation, interestingly enough.

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2 hours ago, SmedleyDButler said:

The likelihood that Beth make definitive canon pronouncements about Dunmer dicks seems.... low.

Well, actually they did seem to make it canon that Khajiit (or Cathay at least) have feline-like barbed penises in the original/uncensored version of The Real Barenziah as seen in Daggerfal, so I guess it wouldn't be that far off. Especially considering all the lore surrounding Vivec and the Sermons, I'm honestly surprised they didn't put anything of the sort in there.

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5 hours ago, FauxFurry said:

The books in Morrowind are surprisingly graphic at times for something bearing a T-rating. There is one describing a tryst had by Vivec in one of his hermaphroditic aspects as part of an act of creation, interestingly enough.

The graphic nature of Morrowind books I do remember. Largely because I put in a lot more hours playing that than Oblivion. And despite its dated graphics and lack of quest markers, I liked it a hell of a lot more.

 

3 hours ago, Blaze69 said:

Well, actually they did seem to make it canon that Khajiit (or Cathay at least) have feline-like barbed penises in the original/uncensored version of The Real Barenziah as seen in Daggerfal, so I guess it wouldn't be that far off. Especially considering all the lore surrounding Vivec and the Sermons, I'm honestly surprised they didn't put anything of the sort in there.

Post-Morrowind, Bugthesda moved away from things like edginess, innovation, and originality in TES for much more bland uninspired average as-fuck "mainstream" content. Anything that would threaten that T-Rating and make them seem "family unfriendly" in the States had to go. Graphic violence is okay; a bare nipple or a discussion of what happens at a Jewish bris and it's the Apocalypse.

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On 2/10/2018 at 11:09 PM, SmedleyDButler said:

It's only anecdotal, but I know several men who've had to have circumcisions in adulthood for medical reasons. Not one of them has ever said they've felt reduced pleasure or sensation (and yes, they've been asked).

 

This doesn't disprove the claim that SOME men experience less sensation due to circumcision, but it does demonstrate that that the claimed effect is by no means universal.

 

Also something something Dunmer.

Considering it's full of nerve endings and is an erogenous zone, I have a hard time believing them, especially as being an owner of one, I know it can be a source of pleasure and sensation both in itself and by keeping the glans from drying out and toughening up. (It's painful when it gets stuck in retracted mode, imagine rubbing cloth over your eyeball or something, to a lesser degree.)

Quote

Taylor characterized the ridged band [of the foreskin] as intensely vascular and richly innervated, stating that it "contains more Meissner's corpuscles than does the smooth mucosa", and noted that these tactile corpuscles were found only in the crests of ridges. [...] The foreskin, including the ridged band, is a specific erogenous zone.[3] Taylor (1996) postulates that "the ridged band with its unique structure, tactile corpuscles and other nerves, is primarily sensory tissue". [...] Taylor's view is that "almost certainly, removal of the prepuce and its ridged band distorts penile reflexogenic functions but exactly how and to what extent still remains to be seen".[4] More recent research has demonstrated that the clinically important bulbocavernosus reflex is absent in 73% of circumcised men ostensibly due to the removal of fine-touch nerve endings in the ridged band. [6]

 

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I doubt they were lying - most of them were actually pleasantly surprised by the outcome. I have had the ole snip myself, but since I had it as a child I don't know of any other method so I can't make any before/after comparisons as my other friends have done (one was Scots, the rest Canadian like me) .


Maybe it's because they still had the ridged band - circumcision need not remove it completely. It's possible that circumcisions performed by doctors for ostensibly "pure medical reasons" intentionally leave the ridged band (at least in Canada), as I certainly still have mine, whereas ones done for religious reasons are more zealous in their removal of tissue.

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2 hours ago, SmedleyDButler said:

I doubt they were lying - most of them were actually pleasantly surprised by the outcome. I have had the ole snip myself, but since I had it as a child I don't know of any other method so I can't make any before/after comparisons as my other friends have done (one was Scots, the rest Canadian like me) .


Maybe it's because they still had the ridged band - circumcision need not remove it completely. It's possible that circumcisions performed by doctors for ostensibly "pure medical reasons" intentionally leave the ridged band (at least in Canada), as I certainly still have mine, whereas ones done for religious reasons are more zealous in their removal of tissue.

The "ridged band" is also known as the phimotic ring (hence "phimosis").  This is highly innervated and very sensitive.  There's also the tactile significance of the frenulum. 

 

When portions of the penile organ are amputated shortly after birth, all of these parts of the organ are compromised.  The mucosa, frenulum, phimotic ring, corona and general nerve endings never get the opportunity to mature, so infantile circumcision is considered more of a substantial amputation.

 

As far as anecdotal reports, when in the case of phimosis or other medical need, these are men who are dealing with some level of pain, limited motility or other sexual limitations.  Because of this, they are very likely to enjoy sensations equally, if not more, after their condition is rectified.  This doesn't, however, have any bearing on the removal of healthy tissue.  There is also the fact that some lack of sensitivity is due to callus formation on the glans due to the protective flesh being removed.  This happens over time and would not be easily compared by self reporting since it's so gradual.  And, as you said, they still maintain some portion of the phimotic ring.

 

I, personally, would have a dramatically reduced amount of pleasure without foreskin.  I would go so far as to say it would ruin masturbation for me.

 

If an adult wants or needs this amputation, I'm all for their personal choice and right to make it.  However, it is not and should not be acceptable to perform on an infant. 

 

As for it's relevance in TES . . . stepping away from purely the philosophical analysis for a moment.  It all comes down to the people who wrote the lore and how they, personally, think/thought of circumcision.  If they find it abhorrent, they would likely only include it within that scope, for example.

 

However, the OP mentioned Vivec by name, eluding to Tumblr fanart that showed him as clearly circumcised.  This is wrong for so many reasons.  The biggest of which that he is described as both male and female.  Both sexes and yet genderless.  The same way that all the Daedric lords are "princes" and some have breasts.  Sex and gender are meaningless concepts for the gods.  So, too, would be immutable genitalia, much less surgically altered.

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Well, if the question came up as a result of fanart, perhaps the artist just drew what they thought was aesthetically pleasing rather than going by technicalities. Some people prefer uncircumcised and others don't, and as far as art goes that is up to them what they choose to depict. Even if it goes against the official lore.

 

As an extension of the question in terms of the game, is there any mod in existence for uncircumcised genitalia? I can't say I've seen any so far (not that I've done a whole lot of looking if I'm honest). How difficult would it be to animate something like that?

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1 hour ago, Lady Horus said:

is there any mod in existence for uncircumcised genitalia?

There is! Leito's work features natural penises, though of course without fully retractable foreskin.  The SAM body had foreskin as well.  I've also seen people using Bodyslide builds to "manufacture" foreskin.  Whenever possible, I will always go for natal genitalia, so I've done quite a bit of looking.

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