Failure Mode Effects Analysis in Skyrim (FMEA)

[poporaltemporal]

Feedback:

There are really nice features in the mod but I would like to point out things that really shoot off.

1) This mod implements and turns of weight for gold by default. There are already dozens of mods that do the same thing and if you do one thing you should do other things.
2) Enchanting has really nice ideas yet I feel all of them are rather extreme. Like 50% of the "unstable table" events could simply result in shattered soul gem or failure to learn the item enchancement.
3) Unstable table feature makes pretty much impossible to do any enchanting. Which is pretty bullocks.  a) turn the time to under an hour or b) give player ability somehow attempt to fix it. Maybe activation of the table would say "fix" and there was skill check for what happened then. If "fix" was implemented it could also do skill exp on success.
4) The sex events are really weird. Really doesnt fit any other events especially when most of the tables are not close to NPCs. Personally I would like to turn these off completely but did not see option for that in the MCM.
5) Dimensional warp to random wilderness location. This seems to occur way more than either "dimensional" rates suggest.
6) Summoned things could be rather ghosts and/or dremora than draugur.
7) At my tries it seemed like the unstable table happened on each disenchant try. Which is really nuts. Should be much less rare or at least this reckless state should happen on very low chance.
8. Unstable table indicator could be less obvious or so. Or if the unstability had different levels this version thats now in should be the maxium risk.
9. I am not sure if this is technically easily possible but you could implement "success grade" aka perfect success was 10% better success was vanilla success, semi success had some weird modifiers like: add arousal over time, slightly increase spell cost, made it difficult to get aroused, different curses like spontaneous orgasms, aroused nipple (would cause the actor to rub them OAR ..), fumble fingers (items picked up would drop by some chance),  etc.. Some of these effects could even be positive. Some of these effect could only occur on chest pieces, circlets/helm, hands etc. You could of course make it also so that even perfect success could have these random effects on certain chance maybe with new soulgem etc.

This idea is completely off the mod original idea mostly anyway.. If you wanted to quest related to the enchanting fails. There could be some dildo that some weird pervert magister (maybe the arch mage) asked you to enchant.  Failing the enchant could result weird effects. There are some magic dildo animations that could be used or perhaps even requested from the animators.

Even with the mod options right now I feel that the enchanting plugin is unusable unless at least the sex, the weird scream, unstable table things can be made less.

[FrySalmonidae]

On 1/7/2025 at 3:21 AM, Bane Master said:

What's New in Version V1.512 SE/LE

Released Just now

• Fixed a possible cause of stack dumps when other mods use cloak effects
• Unforgiving Devices will no longer trigger FMEA traps when lockpicking devious devices

wow that's incredibly fast turnaround! thanks for the fixes, i'll speak up if i notice anything unusual

[Bane Master]

3 hours ago, poporaltemporal said:

1) This mod implements and turns of weight for gold by default. There are already dozens of mods that do the same thing and if you do one thing you should do other things.

Sorry - I disagree

 

3 hours ago, poporaltemporal said:

2) Enchanting has really nice ideas yet I feel all of them are rather extreme. Like 50% of the "unstable table" events could simply result in shattered soul gem or failure to learn the item enchancement.

Sadly the game engine does not provide a reliable way of grabbing the  newly enchanted item so that it can be removed/replaced, so simple failure is not possible - it was the first thing I looked at for Enchanting

 

3 hours ago, poporaltemporal said:

3) Unstable table feature makes pretty much impossible to do any enchanting. Which is pretty bullocks.  a) turn the time to under an hour or b) give player ability somehow attempt to fix it. Maybe activation of the table would say "fix" and there was skill check for what happened then. If "fix" was implemented it could also do skill exp on success.

You can already set the Unstable Workbench duration to between 5 and 60 hours in the MCM. A table fix mechanic is a possibility, but would have risks of it's own and is a major piece of development work.

 

3 hours ago, poporaltemporal said:

4) The sex events are really weird. Really doesnt fit any other events especially when most of the tables are not close to NPCs. Personally I would like to turn these off completely but did not see option for that in the MCM.

You can already disable sex events for each plugin by setting the chance for the outcome(s) with such events to zero.

 

3 hours ago, poporaltemporal said:

5) Dimensional warp to random wilderness location. This seems to occur way more than either "dimensional" rates suggest.

All failure modes use a common function to determine which outcome occurs so this is just RNG playing tricks on you

 

3 hours ago, poporaltemporal said:

6) Summoned things could be rather ghosts and/or dremora than draugur.

Or Giants, or Dragons or....

 

4 hours ago, poporaltemporal said:

7) At my tries it seemed like the unstable table happened on each disenchant try. Which is really nuts. Should be much less rare or at least this reckless state should happen on very low chance.

The point of FMEA is to make it hard to make  powerful or highly valuable items at low skill/level. Unstable Magicka flows is the basic way this is achieved for enchanting so it is the default (non-critical) failure mode. 

 

4 hours ago, poporaltemporal said:

8. Unstable table indicator could be less obvious or so. Or if the unstability had different levels this version thats now in should be the maxium risk.

Why should it be less obvious?

 

4 hours ago, poporaltemporal said:

9. I am not sure if this is technically easily possible

There are some interesting idea here but sadly they are not simple to implement - mostly because of the way enchanted items are handled in the game engine. 

 

4 hours ago, poporaltemporal said:

I feel that the enchanting plugin is unusable unless at least the sex, the weird scream, unstable table things can be made less.

This is already implemented in the MCM.

• Set the chance for Vengeful Soul and Parasitic Intruder to zero
• Set Unstable Workbench Duration to 5 hours
• Increase your success chance/decrease failure penalties for Enchanting/Disenchanting and Item Recharge. Or if you prefer disable Dangerous Disenchanting and/or Risky Recharging.

 

 

[poporaltemporal]

16 hours ago, Bane Master said:

Sorry - I disagree

Good for you as you have right to disagree.
 

16 hours ago, Bane Master said:

Sadly the game engine does not provide a reliable way of grabbing the  newly enchanted item so that it can be removed/replaced, so simple failure is not possible - it was the first thing I looked at for Enchanting

Its not fail safe but you could basically start timer for say 500 ms when the enchant happen during that time,those items that get inserted in the inventory during that time get the check.
 

16 hours ago, Bane Master said:

You can already disable sex events for each plugin by setting the chance for the outcome(s) with such events to zero.

Some of the options related to this were greyed out and I did not find obvious way to turn it off. Will have to look into it again.
 

16 hours ago, Bane Master said:

All failure modes use a common function to determine which outcome occurs so this is just RNG playing tricks on you

Not only that. I think that disenchanting should have different type of scaling for the failure. At least until it was obvious inside game which items disenchanting was hard.
 

16 hours ago, Bane Master said:

Or Giants, or Dragons or....

Nah, nothing immersive of that giants splurt out of enchanted item. Nor dragons. Maybe if it was special amulet that was used to capture but otherwise no. Dremora could somehow be tied to enchanting and they are already present in azura star quest.
 

16 hours ago, Bane Master said:

The point of FMEA is to make it hard to make  powerful or highly valuable items at low skill/level. Unstable Magicka flows is the basic way this is achieved for enchanting so it is the default (non-critical) failure mode. 

 

Why should it be less obvious?

Because table that rages in any location with NPCs and the NPCs dont note it looks just silly. It howls and is covered the shader that should basically make all NPCs run away from it.

Scream is basically same thing that it would fit the world it would have to make all close by npcs react also other than just attack.
 

16 hours ago, Bane Master said:

There are some interesting idea here but sadly they are not simple to implement - mostly because of the way enchanted items are handled in the game engine. 

 

This is already implemented in the MCM.

• Set the chance for Vengeful Soul and Parasitic Intruder to zero
• Set Unstable Workbench Duration to 5 hours
• Increase your success chance/decrease failure penalties for Enchanting/Disenchanting and Item Recharge. Or if you prefer disable Dangerous Disenchanting and/or Risky Recharging.

I turned off the Venguful soul and I did get the scream and red aura even with that turned off. It seemed to somehow bug too as there was 2 NPCs near me and on the first try nothing happened. On one time  the other NPC attacked me. Second time the other NP got defeated. And it was riften keep no guard came.

[poporaltemporal]

18 hours ago, Bane Master said:

This is already implemented in the MCM.

• Set the chance for Vengeful Soul and Parasitic Intruder to zero
• Set Unstable Workbench Duration to 5 hours
• Increase your success chance/decrease failure penalties for Enchanting/Disenchanting and Item Recharge. Or if you prefer disable Dangerous Disenchanting and/or Risky Recharging.

 

 

Checked the settings now.
1) You claimed earlier on same post that sex events are disable. For me they are not. I can only change harassers from both to male and allow follower harrassers. I do not have toys and sexlab events are hard on. There is no setting that lets me turn it off.
2) All of the 4 RNG events are too unimmersive for me so I would like to turn them all off. Actually not sure one of the of them as the descriptions are not clear enough. Dimension rift things are almost named the same and the description dont really say which is what. I could not stand the random teleport so I turned them both off. Anyway your mod forces to enable at least one of them and vengeful soul remains on even I turn it off.
3) I suggested half hour its not 5 hours.
4) That option I have not yet touched as I am still checking the RNG behaviour.

[Hex Bolt]

1 hour ago, poporaltemporal said:

Good for you as you have right to disagree.

It's more than just the right to disagree that anyone has.  It's Bane Master's mod.

 

1 hour ago, poporaltemporal said:

 

19 hours ago, Bane Master said:

All failure modes use a common function to determine which outcome occurs so this is just RNG playing tricks on you

Not only that. I think that disenchanting should have different type of scaling for the failure.

I think you misunderstood what Bane Master was saying (or possibly I misunderstood you).  He was talking about the random number generation itself, that it's the same function used everywhere, so random streaks are no more or less likely for disenchanting than for other failure die rolls.  That goes back to your observation about the frequency of dimensional warps that you observed, and his reply that you were just unlucky.  The mod does calculate the chance for failure differently for each type or activity.  For disenchanting, the number and types of enchantments and the magnitude or duration factor into the difficulty.

 

1 hour ago, poporaltemporal said:

Because table that rages in any location with NPCs and the NPCs dont note it looks just silly. It howls and is covered the shader that should basically make all NPCs run away from it.

In a world of magic and with adventurers often tinkering at public enchanting tables, this could be a common sight, nothing alarming.

[poporaltemporal]

Just now, Hex Bolt said:

It's more than just the right to disagree that anyone has.  It's Bane Master's mod.

If you make mod and put it for people to use and you have forum for it then you have to be ready to also get constructive critisism.  If you put it out and dont listen for others that play test and use it then you are just a dick.

 

Just now, Hex Bolt said:

I think you misunderstood what Bane Master was saying (or possibly I misunderstood you).  He was talking about the random number generation itself, that it's the same function used everywhere, so random streaks are no more or less likely for disenchanting than for other failure die rolls.  That goes back to your observation about the frequency of dimensional warps that you observed, and his reply that you were just unlucky.  The mod does calculate the chance for failure differently for each type or activity.  For disenchanting, the number and types of enchantments and the magnitude or duration factor into the difficulty.

This was not the whole point.  If it has come out of this way then I wonder.
 

Just now, Hex Bolt said:

In a world of magic and with adventurers often tinkering at public enchanting tables, this could be a common sight, nothing alarming.

People that do not possess magic skills wouldnt be terrified.. Right... Even the effects kill and summon undead.

Do you feel your input made the discussion any better?

[Hex Bolt]

15 minutes ago, poporaltemporal said:

You claimed earlier on same post that sex events are disable. For me they are not. I can only change harassers from both to male and allow follower harrassers.

I think you misunderstood Bane Master with regard the sex events.  He said that players can just turn off any failure types that can result in sex, not that the mod has a global toggle for sex.  If an activity can fail in one of three ways (A, B, and C), and only failure B can result in sex, turn off the chance for B.  That activity no longer can result in sex.

[poporaltemporal]

2 minutes ago, Hex Bolt said:

I think you misunderstood Bane Master with regard the sex events.  He said that players can just turn off any failure types that can result in sex, not that the mod has a global toggle for sex.  If an activity can fail in one of three ways (A, B, and C), and only failure B can result in sex, turn off the chance for B.  That activity no longer can result in sex.

I do not believe that its possible even way you are intpreting it. So I am not sure who is misunderstanding now.

[Hex Bolt]

5 minutes ago, poporaltemporal said:

People that do not possess magic skills wouldnt be terrified.. Right... Even the effects kill and summon undead.

Do you feel your input made the discussion any better?

Of course.  A forum is a place to discuss ideas and offer differing viewpoints.  Not possessing magic skills doesn't necessarily make people afraid of it.  I don't know much of today's technology works, but I've seen it in action plenty of times, and it doesn't frighten me.

[FrySalmonidae]

i was thinking about the engine limitations that prevent you from creating smithing/etc. failure consequences, and i'm pretty sure you could work around them with a synthesis patch.

 

basically, you create a new keyword, FMEACraftProcessing, and a new script FMEACraftEval that takes in a COBJ, an item, and a quantity. the script evaluates success/failure and on success adds to the player inventory the item at the quantity.

 

then in a synthesis patcher you iterate over every cobj, create a duplicate record of the item it creates (adding the new keyword and the FMEACraftEval script while passing in the cobj/item/quantity from the recipe), and override the cobj record to create this new duplicate item instead.

 

lastly, you create an alias script that checks every added item for the FMEACraftProcessing keyword, activates the script of any it finds, and then removes the FMEACraftProcessing item from the player inventory.

[Bane Master]

15 hours ago, poporaltemporal said:

If you make mod and put it for people to use and you have forum for it then you have to be ready to also get constructive critisism.  If you put it out and dont listen for others that play test and use it then you are just a dick.

There are 29 pages of support here and 37,000 downloads of the mod so I don't really see your point, or are you implying that I am a dick because you are not getting the support you want?

 

15 hours ago, poporaltemporal said:

15 hours ago, Hex Bolt said:

can result in sex.

I do not believe that its possible even way you are intpreting it.

And you are mistaken - on each plugin page you can disable the failure modes that result in Sex scenes by setting the chance to 0.

 

In the 7 years since FMEA was first released there have been no other reports of issues with disabling outcomes.

 

So the next step would be for you to post a papyrus log of your game with  covering use of the enchanting table and the failures you are having issues with so we can try to identify any errors from FMEA.  

Edited January 10, 2025 by Bane Master

[Bane Master]

17 hours ago, poporaltemporal said:

Its not fail safe but you could basically start timer for say 500 ms when the enchant happen during that time,those items that get inserted in the inventory during that time get the check.

And this is how Potions work in FMEA - unfortunately however, enchanting an item does not trigger OnItemAdded or OnItemRemoved (other than for the soul gem used) - the game engine modifies the item directly without any event triggering.

[Bane Master]

10 hours ago, FrySalmonidae said:

i was thinking about the engine limitations that prevent you from creating smithing/etc. failure consequences, and i'm pretty sure you could work around them with a synthesis patch.

 

basically, you create a new keyword, FMEACraftProcessing, and a new script FMEACraftEval that takes in a COBJ, an item, and a quantity. the script evaluates success/failure and on success adds to the player inventory the item at the quantity.

 

then in a synthesis patcher you iterate over every cobj, create a duplicate record of the item it creates (adding the new keyword and the FMEACraftEval script while passing in the cobj/item/quantity from the recipe), and override the cobj record to create this new duplicate item instead.

 

lastly, you create an alias script that checks every added item for the FMEACraftProcessing keyword, activates the script of any it finds, and then removes the FMEACraftProcessing item from the player inventory.

I'm afraid this is way beyond my pay grade 🙂

 

But if you can create a proof of concept that I can look at and hopefully understand then I'm more than happy to give it a go as I'd love to add a Smithing Plugin

[kaizersoze27]

Hello Bane,

 

is it safe to update mid-game?

 

thanks

[Bane Master]

30 minutes ago, kaizersoze27 said:

Hello Bane,

 

is it safe to update mid-game?

 

thanks

Yes - the mod will restart any plugins that are updated

[kaizersoze27]

Thank you

[lavatube]

On 6/7/2024 at 3:28 AM, Bane Master said:

 

 

FMEA runs a process to update/set the Plant Names when the game loads - after that as @HexBolt8 says it does nothing with Plants until you activate one, even then there's not that much processing unless you trigger an effect.

 

I've not seen any other reports of this being an issue with FMEA so I suspect it's something in your setup - a script log from one of these slowdowns is the best chance of working out what's going on.

 

The recent update to FMEA seems to fix the problem I had with the game randomly hanging when entering some areas. So perhaps the stackdumps issue was causing the hang. 

Anyhow, I've played it for a few days now and I've had no problems...

...well aside from the mannequins taking advantage of me after the nearby alchemy table knocked me out. However, I think I've seen that happen on very rare occasion without FMEA. 

[poporaltemporal]

On 1/9/2025 at 8:55 PM, Hex Bolt said:

Of course.  A forum is a place to discuss ideas and offer differing viewpoints.  Not possessing magic skills doesn't necessarily make people afraid of it.  I don't know much of today's technology works, but I've seen it in action plenty of times, and it doesn't frighten me.

You dont make discussion better when you take role of other discusser and actually point our wrong things. Plus even you think I am an ass. You can think of your own acting and how you are behaving and no even you consider that I am an ass. It does not give you right to be an ass.

Also you point out discussing an idea and you worked as discussion police and did not give input to the idea.

[poporaltemporal]

On 1/10/2025 at 12:03 PM, Bane Master said:

There are 29 pages of support here and 37,000 downloads of the mod so I don't really see your point, or are you implying that I am a dick because you are not getting the support you want?

I have enough of understanding from game development to know that somewhat large download numbers do not tell anything else that the idea is good. It does not give you information of how many people actually use it. So thats bit fat of you to take this point to this discussion which tells about you that you are full of pride.
 

On 1/10/2025 at 12:03 PM, Bane Master said:

And you are mistaken - on each plugin page you can disable the failure modes that result in Sex scenes by setting the chance to 0.

If I play test the mod and tell you that I cannot take all values to 0 and say that you can then you tell me that I am liar or incompetent.  I do not have anymore of course newest version of the mod so I cant tell how it works but you are not stating that this change comes with update of the mod.
 

On 1/10/2025 at 12:03 PM, Bane Master said:

In the 7 years since FMEA was first released there have been no other reports of issues with disabling outcomes.

This can be result of that not many users actually run the mod. Or bother to discuss these things on the forum as they know its completely in vain.
 

On 1/10/2025 at 12:03 PM, Bane Master said:

So the next step would be for you to post a papyrus log of your game with  covering use of the enchanting table and the failures you are having issues with so we can try to identify any errors from FMEA.  

This is first constructive thing you said. And I would but but as said I do not run anymore newest version of the mod and I doubt I play skyrim for sometime now. Anyhow I will try to do this when I do it again.

[Bane Master]

44 minutes ago, poporaltemporal said:

I have enough of understanding from game development to know that somewhat large download numbers do not tell anything else that the idea is good. It does not give you information of how many people actually use it.

 

However the activity is this support thread suggests plenty of people do.

 

47 minutes ago, poporaltemporal said:

If I play test the mod and tell you that I cannot take all values to 0 and say that you can then you tell me that I am liar or incompetent. 

 

No - not all I just think we are talking at cross-purposes.  You can take all but one outcome for each Plugin to zero, which means you can always disable all SL scene outcomes for a plugin. If you want to disable the entire plugin i.e. set all outcomes to 0 that is done via the Enable/Disable Plugin toggle in the system menu.

 

48 minutes ago, poporaltemporal said:

This can be result of that not many users actually run the mod. Or bother to discuss these things on the forum as they know its completely in vain.

 

A cursory look back through the forum will demonstrate that the vast majority of users get their questions answered and their update/content requests considered/actioned. 

 

50 minutes ago, poporaltemporal said:

And I would but but as said I do not run anymore newest version of the mod and I doubt I play skyrim for sometime now. Anyhow I will try to do this when I do it again.

 

Ok - bye for now

[Hex Bolt]

2 hours ago, poporaltemporal said:

You dont make discussion better when you take role of other discusser and actually point our wrong things.

Yes, it does.  That's the definition of offering a differing viewpoint, something the other person might not have considered.  I offered my help, and Bane Master has patiently answered your questions, so you got what you needed.

[Seeker999]

FYI, I just dg’d to v.1.484 from 5.12 because I was always getting ‘jarl is less than pleased’ when lockpicking and gassed, even though there were valid assailants. Happened in the wild, in dungeons, over 2 different games. Was the same w/ v. 1.502. After downgrading, the very first chest I lockpicked resulted in an assault instead of the ‘jarl is less than pleased’ and being transported to a jail cell. Same people around me before and after the dg.

[Bane Master]

1 hour ago, Seeker999 said:

FYI, I just dg’d to v.1.484 from 5.12 because I was always getting ‘jarl is less than pleased’ when lockpicking and gassed, even though there were valid assailants. Happened in the wild, in dungeons, over 2 different games. Was the same w/ v. 1.502. After downgrading, the very first chest I lockpicked resulted in an assault instead of the ‘jarl is less than pleased’ and being transported to a jail cell. Same people around me before and after the dg.

I've checked the code and the call that tests for wake up In Jail is identical in both versions 

 

Elseif !WakeUpInJail(GetFloatValue(none, "fmea_LockpickingBounty") as Int, kWitness)
            Abused()
Endif

By default (both versions) attempt to jail the Player before falling back to abuse if jail fails or is disabled, so I can't account for the difference you are seeing between versions.

 

If you uncheck allow Vanilla Jail in the Lockpicking MCM you should get the result you are looking for.

 

Edited February 6, 2025 by Bane Master

[Seeker999]

2 hours ago, Bane Master said:

If you uncheck allow Vanilla Jail in the Lockpicking MCM you should get the result you are looking for.

I'll try that! Last game I had POP so I checked that. This game I just did the same settings even though I didn't have POP. Thanks! I really want to get back to those contaminated potions and poisons, nice touch.