Content Consumer's Alternate Starts

[chimiz]

 

Very nice mod concept I must say. So far I've had few issues, although for some reason in the wolf start all the three wolves started off by killing eachother in a free for all.  No clue why, seemed weird. Are they not part of the same faction? Is it intended?

 

Well that's a new one.  We've had the wolves attack the player, not attack the player, and now attack each other.

 

No, that's not intended.  Did you try the bear start? Do they fight each other too? How about the trolls?

 

 

I know that when I initially tried it, I had SkyTEST Realistic Predators yadayada active, and then the wolves would just beeline to the nearest corner in absolute terror of me as I casually walked out of the cave. I've since removed it.

 

I'll do some more testing tonight probably, see what happens with the other starts too.

[Content Consumer]

Very nice mod concept I must say. So far I've had few issues, although for some reason in the wolf start all the three wolves started off by killing eachother in a free for all.  No clue why, seemed weird. Are they not part of the same faction? Is it intended?

WTF? Uh, no, that's not intended.

 

had to reinstall it but now crashing once content loads but that's a problem with something else entirely. thanks for the heads up keep that link in mind later.

 

 

Hmm... you might check to see that your skse.ini file has the memory fixes in place.

 

Just so you know, if you plan to port this to the Special Edition, you'll have to wait for SKSE's 64-bit version:

 

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/skyrim-remaster-will-work-with-basically-all-old-m/1100-6440942/

 

Unless it's already out :V

I had no plans to port to the Special Edition. I mean, not until Sexlab has (if it indeed does) been ported over, and SKSE works just fine, and no bugs are reported. So probably a long way off if at all. 

[chimiz]

Tried it in a fresh game now, wolves are hostile to me but not with eachother. Not sure if I just encountered some weird freak occurance bug.

[Content Consumer]

Okay, what do y'all think... should I just get rid of the vanilla creatures and replace them with my own?

 

I've been wanting to avoid this, because doing so might possibly conflict with other things, like the "Animal Extermination" Companions radiant quests, for example. But that's the only way I can see to guarantee that the creatures (trolls, wolves, bears, spiders) are not hostile to the player in those scenarios.

 

That would affect the Troll Toy, Bear Pet, Wolf Bitch, and Spider Victim scenarios. The others are all okay, I think? At least I don't remember any complaints...

[karlpaws]

Okay, what do y'all think... should I just get rid of the vanilla creatures and replace them with my own?

 

I've been wanting to avoid this, because doing so might possibly conflict with other things, like the "Animal Extermination" Companions radiant quests, for example. But that's the only way I can see to guarantee that the creatures (trolls, wolves, bears, spiders) are not hostile to the player in those scenarios.

 

That would affect the Troll Toy, Bear Pet, Wolf Bitch, and Spider Victim scenarios. The others are all okay, I think? At least I don't remember any complaints...

 

I guess your question brings back up the debate on the purpose of those starts. Except for the odd "animals attack each other" problem them attacking or not attacking you probably won't bother the animal lover mod group.

 

I'd vote for leaving them as they are, and look into some purpose created caves from addons like Beastess Caves that came up before. I'm not sure if the Beastess mod has a location to start or just a quest hook. I am sure Untamed doesn't really have anything, just spells you start with.

 

The rest of the alternate starts have a place and a story, but I'm not sure you have to create one yourself for these, since there are other mods people would be using.

[theotherperson982]

Okay, what do y'all think... should I just get rid of the vanilla creatures and replace them with my own?

 

I've been wanting to avoid this, because doing so might possibly conflict with other things, like the "Animal Extermination" Companions radiant quests, for example. But that's the only way I can see to guarantee that the creatures (trolls, wolves, bears, spiders) are not hostile to the player in those scenarios.

 

That would affect the Troll Toy, Bear Pet, Wolf Bitch, and Spider Victim scenarios. The others are all okay, I think? At least I don't remember any complaints...

its fine the way it is now. but cant see a problem if you want to put forth more effort to make said creatures id say go for it.

[chimiz]

Okay, what do y'all think... should I just get rid of the vanilla creatures and replace them with my own?

 

I've been wanting to avoid this, because doing so might possibly conflict with other things, like the "Animal Extermination" Companions radiant quests, for example. But that's the only way I can see to guarantee that the creatures (trolls, wolves, bears, spiders) are not hostile to the player in those scenarios.

 

That would affect the Troll Toy, Bear Pet, Wolf Bitch, and Spider Victim scenarios. The others are all okay, I think? At least I don't remember any complaints...

 

When I tried it again recently, they were hostile initially. But after defeat triggered an animation, they turned passive completely. No dialogue options with them either (not sure if it was something that was supposed to be there or not, like the dog start for example). 

Overall, I don't really have a problem with either way you do it. I think it depends on how you personally feel about it, weighing workload against result. 

If you add personal copies instead, would it interfere in any way with animation triggers? I'm guessing probably not.

Would you customize the start creatures further? Names, stats, even followers?

Would there be other animation triggers from those starts as a result? 

 

Like Karlpaws said, you could also look into asking for permission to add these; 

http://www.loverslab.com/files/file/1503-beastess-lairs/

in addition to the ones you have, to the alternate starts too if you like them. They don't initially have any creatures in them, but are nice and thematic, spread out a bit across the world. Could allow for more starting locations for similar creature types. Like the Ice Wolves in your cave, or forest kinds in falkreath, or standard south of whiterun, etc etc.

 

Well, I mean, it's your mod so it's obviously up to you! But having even more cave-y options wouldn't be bad!

[karlpaws]

 

Okay, what do y'all think... should I just get rid of the vanilla creatures and replace them with my own?

 

I've been wanting to avoid this, because doing so might possibly conflict with other things, like the "Animal Extermination" Companions radiant quests, for example. But that's the only way I can see to guarantee that the creatures (trolls, wolves, bears, spiders) are not hostile to the player in those scenarios.

 

That would affect the Troll Toy, Bear Pet, Wolf Bitch, and Spider Victim scenarios. The others are all okay, I think? At least I don't remember any complaints...

 

When I tried it again recently, they were hostile initially. But after defeat triggered an animation, they turned passive completely. No dialogue options with them either (not sure if it was something that was supposed to be there or not, like the dog start for example). 

Overall, I don't really have a problem with either way you do it. I think it depends on how you personally feel about it, weighing workload against result. 

If you add personal copies instead, would it interfere in any way with animation triggers? I'm guessing probably not.

Would you customize the start creatures further? Names, stats, even followers?

Would there be other animation triggers from those starts as a result? 

 

Like Karlpaws said, you could also look into asking for permission to add these; 

http://www.loverslab.com/files/file/1503-beastess-lairs/

in addition to the ones you have, to the alternate starts too if you like them. They don't initially have any creatures in them, but are nice and thematic, spread out a bit across the world. Could allow for more starting locations for similar creature types. Like the Ice Wolves in your cave, or forest kinds in falkreath, or standard south of whiterun, etc etc.

 

Well, I mean, it's your mod so it's obviously up to you! But having even more cave-y options wouldn't be bad!

 

 

My assumptions were people picking the beast starts had some kind of beast taming mod that would change them from aggressive to passive (as I believe Defeat does) and then into a follower of some kind - or just lead to beast sex.

 

With the Lairs mod or any other I assume that when the PC is transported there, an animal or 3 can be spawned at the same time. It would take a bit of a dialog tree, but there could be an option for "I am a feral hermit living in a beast lair" with options of " .. with a small pack of wolves" ".. a bear" ".. a troll" etc. and spawn in 2-3 wolves or one bear or troll. More would probably be too powerful. The Lair in Falkreath hold usually has 3 wolves that spawn just outside, whenever I fast travel there I have to be ready for a fight. I think they are always wolves too, never had a bear spawn at higher levels.

 

[Content Consumer]

I guess your question brings back up the debate on the purpose of those starts. Except for the odd "animals attack each other" problem them attacking or not attacking you probably won't bother the animal lover mod group.

*snip*

Yeah, still stumped on those animals attacking each other. 

Leaving them as they are is certainly easier on me, haha, but I keep thinking that if a few people report problems, there might be dozens more who have the problem but haven't reported it. I honestly don't know...

I think we might be thinking about different mods when we're talking about Beastess caves... can you give me a link to the mod you're talking about? Is this a Beastess (mod) plugin, or just the Beastess Lairs mod, that only adds new locations, or something else?

 

When I tried it again recently, they were hostile initially.

*snip*

Adding unique races would possibly have a problem, but I *think* I can just add a copy of a leveled actor base and then remove all factions from it, and that should work. I think.

 

its fine the way it is now. but cant see a problem if you want to put forth more effort to make said creatures id say go for it.

 

My assumptions were people picking the beast starts had some kind of beast taming mod that would change them from aggressive to passive (as I believe Defeat does) and then into a follower of some kind - or just lead to beast sex.

*snip*

 

And those Beastess Lairs were the ones I've been thinking of. The problem is to use the mod without making it a dependency. For most of the scenarios in CCAS, that's pretty easy - just a modevent or a simple quest call would be needed. To use Beastess Lairs, though, I'd need to find at least two objects in the cave that are preferably floating in midair so I can teleport the player and a friendly animal master to, and make sure that I get the right hex codes and all that. And I don't know if there are any items like that. If you player.moveto a floor piece, for example, do you just fall right through the floor? Is there a COC marker I can use as a destination .moveto point? I just don't know.

 

If I made Beastess Lairs a dependency this wouldn't be a problem at all. But I don't want to use any actual dependencies other than the ones already in the mod.And those Beastess Lairs were the ones I've been thinking of. The problem is to use the mod without making it a dependency. For most of the scenarios in CCAS, that's pretty easy - just a modevent or a simple quest call would be needed. To use Beastess Lairs, though, I'd need to find at least two objects in the cave that are preferably floating in midair so I can teleport the player and a friendly animal master to, and make sure that I get the right hex codes and all that. And I don't know if there are any items like that. If you player.moveto a floor piece, for example, do you just fall right through the floor? Is there a COC marker I can use as a destination .moveto point? I just don't know.

[karlpaws]

Well I can report that "coc aaabeastesslair" put me right in the middle of the one near Whiterun. The others are named simply aaabeastesslair2, aaabeastesslair3, aaabeastesslair4.

 

I do not remember the result, but I seem to remember the last time this mod came up as a possibility there was discussion about asking the mod author for permission to use the resources in some way.  I do not see anything in her support thread, but don't know if a PM was used.

 

I'm not sure you would want to fork her mod but if she added in what you needed, or you were able to provide that, others might be able to use her mod for something similar. Having one or all of the caves as alternate starts, empty without beasts, wouldn't be a bad option either.

[karlpaws]

I kinda realized I haven't mentioned using another mod with small varied locations

 

Hidden Hideouts of Skyrim

 

http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/49723/?

 

might have the same problem with no modevents and such, and some of the interior locations are a bit small and tight.

[DesertElf]

Small problem with the Brood Mother start.... It just fades back into the Cell you start in LAL but without the bed or statue. I have sexlab Stories, EC+ and I was female.

 

The chaurus egg breeder start doesn't even appear in my list. Maybe because I don't use SD+?

 

I can't use SD+ since for some reason, Death Alternative crashes a lot when any mod attempts to work with it. Such as SD+. Instead of SD+, i get CTD. Every single time.

 

I know some functions won't be there, but to not appear at all?  I found an armor that would be perfect for this start.. but I can't seem to use either one of the Chaurus stories.

[Content Consumer]

Small problem with the Brood Mother start.... It just fades back into the Cell you start in LAL but without the bed or statue. I have sexlab Stories, EC+ and I was female.

 

The chaurus egg breeder start doesn't even appear in my list. Maybe because I don't use SD+?

 

I can't use SD+ since for some reason, Death Alternative crashes a lot when any mod attempts to work with it. Such as SD+. Instead of SD+, i get CTD. Every single time.

 

I know some functions won't be there, but to not appear at all?  I found an armor that would be perfect for this start.. but I can't seem to use either one of the Chaurus stories.

 

The scenario not appearing is probably because you don't have Sexlab Stories installed, would be my guess. Alternately, depending on the scenario it could be located under the "I am enslaved" header.

 

As for the fade to black in the cell and back in without moving, that sounds like a known problems some players have. Try JDough's fix:

 

What I did to fix it:

Now I opened my save game with 'Save Game Cleaner' v2.0.6, filtered for 'CCAS' scripts and deleted the whole set of script instances (not the listed scripts, only the instances).

Saved the modified save game, loaded and started a random scenario (dog scenario): Success!

Closed and restarted Skyrim, loaded back into the modified save (LAL cell) and chose another scenario (pregnant slave to Kin family): Success!

 

I have then re-activated JUGs and tried to start the Giants pet scenario: fail, landed back in the LAL cell

Disabled JUGs again, loaded back in and launched the Giants pet scenario again: Success!

 

So JUGs definitely interferes with the start.

But the cleaning of the CCAS instances made it all work - for me anyways.

[Richi90]

upon starting as ''ancient nord queen'' is there dialogue or will you add dialogue to npc's (elder wise people) who might recognize you as said queen from the past?

[Content Consumer]

upon starting as ''ancient nord queen'' is there dialogue or will you add dialogue to npc's (elder wise people) who might recognize you as said queen from the past?

 

Good question. I've been intending to add more dialogue to all of my starts, but I tend to think that adding dialogue for the Nord Queen is something that should probably go in Stories, assuming skyrimll even wants it.

 

As it is, the only NPCs I can think of that might recognize an ancient nord queen would be some very old vampires or possibly high elves. Being that there aren't any elderly high elves in Skyrim (at least as far as I know), probably the only person who would ever have dialogue about that would be Serana, Valerica, or Harkon. I was going to suggest Master Neloth, but IIRC it isn't specified how old he is anyway, and even if he is old enough there's no guarantee he'd actually know anything about one specific Nord, even a Queen (they do tend to come and go ).

 

For that matter, we don't actually know exactly how old the Nord Queen is either... we must assume sometime in the First Era, and as far as I can remember not even Divayth Fyr is that old. Perhaps some Daedra might notice and comment though.

 

Interesting idea anyway.

[DeepBlueFrog]

The Nord Queen is old enough to have met Gauldur, become his lover and be killed by his sons for it.

[Richi90]

well, the wolf queen is infamous and her story written down in books, perhaps something similar for your Queen? it be difficult but perhaps a graduating dialogue. that with each encounter (spending time) with certain people make them recognize character traits and specific things he read about in an old tome, working toward a full recognition ''are.... are you?!... HER?!'' 

 

upon starting as ''ancient nord queen'' is there dialogue or will you add dialogue to npc's (elder wise people) who might recognize you as said queen from the past?

 

Good question. I've been intending to add more dialogue to all of my starts, but I tend to think that adding dialogue for the Nord Queen is something that should probably go in Stories, assuming skyrimll even wants it.

 

As it is, the only NPCs I can think of that might recognize an ancient nord queen would be some very old vampires or possibly high elves. Being that there aren't any elderly high elves in Skyrim (at least as far as I know), probably the only person who would ever have dialogue about that would be Serana, Valerica, or Harkon. I was going to suggest Master Neloth, but IIRC it isn't specified how old he is anyway, and even if he is old enough there's no guarantee he'd actually know anything about one specific Nord, even a Queen (they do tend to come and go ).

 

For that matter, we don't actually know exactly how old the Nord Queen is either... we must assume sometime in the First Era, and as far as I can remember not even Divayth Fyr is that old. Perhaps some Daedra might notice and comment though.

 

Interesting idea anyway.

 

Perhaps Neloth on solstheim, i get the impression he might very well be the oldest person you meet in the game. to stretch this far. perhaps during your time in sovngarde some of the old heroes remember you or something

[Content Consumer]

The Nord Queen is old enough to have met Gauldur, become his lover and be killed by his sons for it. 

 

Perhaps Neloth on solstheim, i get the impression he might very well be the oldest person you meet in the game. to stretch this far. perhaps during your time in sovngarde some of the old heroes remember you or something

 

And Galdur's age is likewise unspecified, aside from a nebulous "first era." At least, that's what I remember.

Since the First Era is roughly three thousand years in length, and IIRC Divayth Fyr was only 4000 years old at the time of Morrowind (which, assuming he's survived to now, puts him at roughly 4200 years of age) is still too young to have lived through it.

Now Serana, Valerica, and Harkon, on the other hand, are almost certainly that old. Serana's confusion over the fact that Skyrim is part of a Cyrodiilic empire would put her entombed at least as far back as 1e 243, and she's most probably much older. Meaning that Serana and her family may have originally arrived in Skyrim from Atmora sometime during the Merethic Era, no earlier than ME 1000. She probably knew High King Harald, directly or indirectly. She may have known Ysgramor!

And by that standard, she may also have personally known Galdur, or at least known of Galdur, and thus one can assume that she knew about his lover.

We're a bit too far back to be making definite claims as to what happened, or when, though. "History became legend. Legend became myth." And AFAIK the only people who almost certainly lived through it (Serana, Valerica, Harkon, Gelebor, Vyrthur) aren't talking.

 

well, the wolf queen is infamous and her story written down in books, perhaps something similar for your Queen? it be difficult but perhaps a graduating dialogue. that with each encounter (spending time) with certain people make them recognize character traits and specific things he read about in an old tome, working toward a full recognition ''are.... are you?!... HER?!'' 

By that, I can definitely see Neloth noticing. On the other hand, I can't see Neloth actually caring. His blase attitude toward events and people of great import as being somehow beneath him leads me to believe that he wouldn't deign to remark upon it.

Sovngarde heroes, perhaps. Daedra too. For anyone else, that would require a story written in books. You pointed out Potema, but not only is she much more recent but there are many books about her. There aren't, as yet, any books about Galdur's lover.

In any case, that sounds more like a side-plugin for Do You Know Who I Am. 

[DeepBlueFrog]

The king who dispatched Gauldurs sons also tried to scrub him from history, so that would go as well for his lover.

 

I am tempted to make the Nord Queen old enough to have walked through Labyrinthian and be known to Dragon priests. Still checking the Lore on that one.

[spoonsinger]

The king who dispatched Gauldurs sons also tried to scrub him from history, so that would go as well for his lover.

 

I am tempted to make the Nord Queen old enough to have walked through Labyrinthian and be known to Dragon priests. Still checking the Lore on that one.

 

Dragons really hate mud crabs. Therefore you can use a time based Venn diagram to determine at what period mud crabs, other races and dragons appeared, extrapolate appropriate other parameters and apply plausible Eldar Scroll historic dynamics, stick a finger in the air, and say this is such.

 

The history seems to be a bit vague on dragon hatred of mud crabs, but from evolution I suspect it's something to do with hats. The Nord Queen doesn't come with a hat, so I suspect it's post the dragon/mud crab thing when the dragons decided something else annoyed them.

 

[karlpaws]

The Nord Queen is old enough to have met Gauldur, become his lover and be killed by his sons for it.

 

Lover of the High King's mage isn't queen. So she'd be less known than might have been implied. Hadn't you stated that she want to BECOME queen, not that she was once? So the story would be her gaining power to become queen?

 

well, the wolf queen is infamous and her story written down in books, perhaps something similar for your Queen? it be difficult but perhaps a graduating dialogue. that with each encounter (spending time) with certain people make them recognize character traits and specific things he read about in an old tome, working toward a full recognition ''are.... are you?!... HER?!'' 

 

upon starting as ''ancient nord queen'' is there dialogue or will you add dialogue to npc's (elder wise people) who might recognize you as said queen from the past?

 

Good question. I've been intending to add more dialogue to all of my starts, but I tend to think that adding dialogue for the Nord Queen is something that should probably go in Stories, assuming skyrimll even wants it.

 

As it is, the only NPCs I can think of that might recognize an ancient nord queen would be some very old vampires or possibly high elves. Being that there aren't any elderly high elves in Skyrim (at least as far as I know), probably the only person who would ever have dialogue about that would be Serana, Valerica, or Harkon. I was going to suggest Master Neloth, but IIRC it isn't specified how old he is anyway, and even if he is old enough there's no guarantee he'd actually know anything about one specific Nord, even a Queen (they do tend to come and go ).

 

For that matter, we don't actually know exactly how old the Nord Queen is either... we must assume sometime in the First Era, and as far as I can remember not even Divayth Fyr is that old. Perhaps some Daedra might notice and comment though.

 

Interesting idea anyway.

 

Perhaps Neloth on solstheim, i get the impression he might very well be the oldest person you meet in the game. to stretch this far. perhaps during your time in sovngarde some of the old heroes remember you or something

 

Sovnguard might be the only chance to find someone who would actually recognize her, though since Serana doesn't know about an empire in Cyrodil and from what I can guess (I'm not strong on Tamriel lore) it was sometime in the first era that empire started. It looks like the first era was fairly long, and year numbers start over with the second era which ran almost 900 years. Since Serana's been in a box and Valerica in the Soul Cairn, I'm not sure if Harkon ever left his castle.  None of them may know anything.

 

As Gauldur's story itself is fairly unknown at this time, the existence of his lover would be even less so, I would think.  On the other hand, word of a risen nord from the past creating an army of draugr would probably be noticed, unless intentionally hushed up like Potema's return attempt was. She originally lived 600 years ago, at a time of wide spread civilization, well into the time of the empire. Her life would have been known to many at the time and easily recorded. It looks like Gauldur lived maybe 4000 years ago, (600 years before the Dwemer disappear) so we're maybe comparing someone from our 1400s to someone from the 2000s BC.

 

From UESP "In 1E 139 and 140, the forces of "Lord Harald" also found, besieged, and eradicated the last known bastion of the Dragon Cult in Skyrim " - Forelhost - that nord ruin down by Riften where they poisoned themselves.. it has the fake imperial/stormcloak soldier out front that gives you the quest to head in and discover the treasure. In Sovnguarde then would be heroes from that time, maybe even Gauldur and Harald. She and hers probably aren't dragon cult then, but with the dragons coming back, and the PC having the potential to be dragonborn, at least with game mechanics, the story could be so.

 

If anything, with the passage of time and assumption that the mistress was killed by the sons at the same time they murdered their father, she may not know where any loyal generals and advisors might have been buried. If there is going to be a quest, tracking down the dragon priests on her side, taking out potential rivals, and finding other friendly tombs while building a necromantic army might be the way to go. Might be all nords of the day did the draugr thing, not just dragon cult. Something to look up later, but there are at least 3 tombs with draugr bosses at the end and not dragon priests, so those could be your "loyal generals" to find, wake, lay, and gain as followers. I wonder if, as a female PC, you could fuck nords, gather their essences and return to your loyal dead. Filled with the Essence of Nord, you could CPR it back into them and, waking horny due to how you gathered the Essence, proceed to fuck you in thanks.

 

And now that I've spent so much time writing this that two that know more have posted under me, maybe this start on research will prove useful.

 

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Gauldur

 

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Third_Era (there is an Era menu, so you can switch to first or second era timelines)

[Content Consumer]

Rather than do any modding, I've been sitting here screwing around trying to figure out this whole Nord Queen thing.

Specifically, if we do NOT use known histories as the recognition point for the Nord Queen, we have to use direct knowledge. Which limits our pool of people who can recognize the Nord Queen, or at least recognize something about her as being the individual in question.

So I just sat here coming up with this crap. Wall of text, feel free to ignore.

 

Part 1: The Nord Queen

We know that the Nord Queen was alive alongside Gauldur.

We know that Gauldur was alive during the time of Harald, in the First Era. We will assume that Gauldur was not more than approximately 40 years old when Harald was born (see the note on Nord ages below).

We know that Harald was crowned High King in 1e 143.

Since she would have to have abdicated before that event, we therefore know that the Nord Queen was murdered on or before 1e 143.

NB: So far, this is predicated on the premise that she was a Queen, but not necessarily the High Queen. Either status would work, in fact - we can assume that she abdicated her queendom in favor of Harald becoming High King, or that she was murdered thus paving the way for Harald to become High King.

NB/Aside: I tend to favor this second theory. There is some debate as to whether Harald was involved in Gauldur's murder. It is well known that Harald did do his level best to expunge the family name of Gauldur from all record, and whether one believes it was because he was a murderous usurper or because he and Geirmund wanted to wipe the crimes of Gauldur's sons from his legend is entirely personal choice.

Therefore, we'll set 1e 143 as her last living date.

We know that she was a Nord, and Nords rarely live beyond 100 years of age or so (we're discounting some of the more obscure legends regarding Old Knocker/Orkey and the possibility that Wulfharth learned a shout that extends lifespan).

Therefore we're setting her birth at no earlier than 1e 43.

We don't know exactly at what age she became a Queen, but we must assume somewhere between 1e 43 and 1e 143. We'll just split the difference - 1e 93. The exact date is irrelevant.

What is relevant is that she was a Queen (or High Queen) after this point but before 1e 143. Dealing with round numbers is easier - we'll just say that she was alive during 1e 100.

 

Part 2: Serana

We are using Serana here rather than any of the other Volkihar purebloods or "grandchildren" because she is the only one who even remotely gives any evidence of a timeline. It might be reasonable to use that Vyrthur and Gelebor instead, being that they were alive before the Falmer were betrayed by the Dwemer, but given the unspecified length of Snow Elf lifespans, this is problematic.

We know that Serana was entombed some time before Cyrodiil became the seat of an empire. Since the first Cyrodiilic empire can be assumed to have been founded by Alessia in 1e 242, we must assume that she was entombed before this event. Note that 1e 243 is not a hard number, but it is a convenient one, happening at the conquering of White-Gold Tower by the Allessian forces.

NB: The argument that Serana was speaking of a different Cyrodiilic empire, there having been different dynasties that could be considered emperors of a Cyrodiilic empire, is entirely valid. But that leads us into a neverending rabbit hole of possible origin points. Since we're basing this all on Serana's words, I feel justified in basing it on her tone of voice too, which would indicate her surprise that there is any Cyrodiilic empire, not just the "most recent" one.

Unfortunately, although we have a high number for her entombment, we do not have a low number. However, we can make some guesses:

Serana is of Nedic stock. This can be inferred from her physical features. This is by no means perfect evidence, but it's a good start. She's certainly not Yokudan, and by this time there were no "Bretons" in High Rock, though the Nedes (Nords) had been settling portions. Daggerfall, for example, was settled in 1e 246.

NB/Aside: I am uncertain as to the date of origin for the people called Bretons. Ostensibly offspring between Nemer (specifically Nords) and Aldmer, we can make some pretty wild guesses about their origin, using such sources as Racial Phylogeny.

Serana would almost certainly have arrived in Skyrim before 1e 68, the last Nedic migration from Atmora. That she could have done so in the First Era is certainly possible, but just for simplicity's sake I'm going to say it was in the Merethic Era. It really doesn't matter though, because...

If we take it as fact (disputed, but bear with me) that Gauldur was no older than roughly 100 years at the time of his death, there's really not much time between the beginning of the First Era and his death.

All of this is just conjecture, but with some basis in fact (given that we are assuming that the recorded history is fully accurate, which is also by no means the case, but if we don't then we might as well give up).

And the whole point of it is:

 

Part 3: Serana and the Nord Queen

We can assume that Serana may have known the Nord Queen, either personally, or through Gauldur (also either personally or by reputation).

Unfortunately for us, there is actually very little overlap in the timelines here. As I said, we must assume that Gauldur was no older than 100 years when he was killed, and Gauldur is the basis for our knowledge of the Nord Queen.

100 years is really quite a short time indeed when we consider just how old Serana is, and how old she may have been before the First Era started.

In truth, there is no hard evidence that Serana was even alive at the same time as Gauldur. It's a possibility, but not a certainty.

At any rate, Serana is the only individual we have in Skyrim (talking about the vanilla game + DLC here, not mods) besides the Daedra who we might say either knew personally or by reputation the Nord Queen.

She's also the only one with whom the player interacts with on anything longer than a very temporary basis.

There are some other possibile people though.

 

Part 4: Other possibilities

If not Serana, extraplanar entities are probably the best bet. But the list is actually fairly extensive:

Serana is probably the best bet.

All of the Divines (that is, eight of the Divines, not Talos)

Vyrthur, Gelebor, Harkon, Valerica

Other vampires in Castle Volkihar? It is implied that some of them are also purebloods and thus may be old enough.

All of the Daedra princes. Sanguine is probably the best bet, as his interaction with the player is more direct, and longer lasting, than the other Daedra princes in the vanilla (and DLC) game.

Master Neloth is a (very remote) possibility. The liklihood of his being old enough is vanishingly small, and even then we must assume that he (Chimer at the time, obviously, not Dunmer) was nowhere near Skyrim and the Nord Queen, the Chimer and the Nords being at war at the time.

There may be other possibilities, but I doubt it. Which leads us to:

 

Part 5: Historical accounts

I am forced to dismiss the possibility of any NPCs being able to speak to the Nord Queen about her past, except Serana, Sanguine, and possibliy Hermaeus Mora. Other Daedra Princes may have knowledge of her, anywhere from limited to full, but it doesn't really matter since we never interact with any of them much. Even Hermaeus Mora is fairly limited. Sanguine, either as himself or in the form of Sam Guevenne, may be able to discuss the matter. Serana too, but it's certainly not guaranteed.

So we're forced to come up with historical accounts of her reign. The vanilla sources on Gauldur can be modified as needed, or new ones created.

Which means that if we really want any sort of dialogue about the Nord Queen, someone will have to sit down and write it up. For myself, I cannot justify dialogue about an historical figure without some form of evidence to back it up, fictional or otherwise. This may be a real failing on my part.

I mean, look at some of my mods. CCAS for example. I wanted to use a nice stone Ogre statue object, but I couldn't figure out a way to use it without some backup. Just plopping it down in some cell didn't feel right. So I had to give a reason for the ogre being stone. A botched stoneskin spell! But just putting a spell tome of stoneskin in his hand wasn't enough, I had to give a reason for it. Enter Dend's journal, and Dend the Ogre Mage was born. Like the player, he was an Aspiring Mage who got in over his head. Was it necessary to come up with this extra crap, bloating the mod with stuff most people are never going to see in the first place, and not incidentally increase the size of the upload which with my internet connection is a pain in the ass? No, it was not necessary, but I had a compulsion to do it anyway.

 

tl,dr:

So what I'm getting at is that I'm probably not going to be writing any dialogue for NPCs to recognize the Nord Queen any time soon, if ever.

 

[Content Consumer]

Eep. I made that last post without reading the others first.

 

The king who dispatched Gauldurs sons also tried to scrub him from history, so that would go as well for his lover.

I am tempted to make the Nord Queen old enough to have walked through Labyrinthian and be known to Dragon priests. Still checking the Lore on that one.

Well, you can just look up one.

 

 

Dragons really hate mud crabs. Therefore you can use a time based Venn diagram to determine at what period mud crabs, other races and dragons appeared, extrapolate appropriate other parameters and apply plausible Eldar Scroll historic dynamics, stick a finger in the air, and say this is such.

 

The history seems to be a bit vague on dragon hatred of mud crabs, but from evolution I suspect it's something to do with hats. The Nord Queen doesn't come with a hat, so I suspect it's post the dragon/mud crab thing when the dragons decided something else annoyed them.
 

 

Aha! Where do you get the idea that Dragons hate Mudcrabs? Cite your sources, man! I will not stand for this kind of fanciful thought or "evidence" based on nothing! This shall not be borne!

Uh, now that I think about it, we can assume that everyone hates Mudcrabs. Because since the days of Oblivion, everyone has said it about a million times.

Therefore, dragons hate mudcrabs.

QED. Sorry for my outburst there. Carry on.

 

 

Lover of the High King's mage isn't queen. So she'd be less known than might have been implied. Hadn't you stated that she want to BECOME queen, not that she was once? So the story would be her gaining power to become queen?

True, but it is a fact that she is a Nord Queen and Gauldur's Lover. And it is never actually stated anywhere that Gauldur was Harald's court mage or anything. People far and wide sought his advice and knowledge, but there's nothing that explicitly says he was anyone's court mage.

 

Sovnguard might be the only chance to find someone who would actually recognize her, though since Serana doesn't know about an empire in Cyrodil and from what I can guess (I'm not strong on Tamriel lore) it was sometime in the first era that empire started. It looks like the first era was fairly long, and year numbers start over with the second era which ran almost 900 years. Since Serana's been in a box and Valerica in the Soul Cairn, I'm not sure if Harkon ever left his castle.  None of them may know anything.

Urgh. I keep forgetting about Sovngarde. At the very least, Tsun may have known of her.

 

As Gauldur's story itself is fairly unknown at this time, the existence of his lover would be even less so, I would think.  On the other hand, word of a risen nord from the past creating an army of draugr would probably be noticed, unless intentionally hushed up like Potema's return attempt was. She originally lived 600 years ago, at a time of wide spread civilization, well into the time of the empire. Her life would have been known to many at the time and easily recorded. It looks like Gauldur lived maybe 4000 years ago, (600 years before the Dwemer disappear) so we're maybe comparing someone from our 1400s to someone from the 2000s BC.

Gauldur (and thus by extension the Nord Queen) is much older than 600 years BP. Potema is recent news in comparison.

 

From UESP "In 1E 139 and 140, the forces of "Lord Harald" also found, besieged, and eradicated the last known bastion of the Dragon Cult in Skyrim " - Forelhost - that nord ruin down by Riften where they poisoned themselves.. it has the fake imperial/stormcloak soldier out front that gives you the quest to head in and discover the treasure. In Sovnguarde then would be heroes from that time, maybe even Gauldur and Harald. She and hers probably aren't dragon cult then, but with the dragons coming back, and the PC having the potential to be dragonborn, at least with game mechanics, the story could be so.

Dragonborns are a little more versatile than most people think. Consider that the Septim emperors were all Dragonborn (supposedly), and that Dragonborns have been born in many different times to many different races, the fact that the player is a Dragonborn doesn't need to have any bearing on her Nord Queen status, or vice versa.

 

If anything, with the passage of time and assumption that the mistress was killed by the sons at the same time they murdered their father, she may not know where any loyal generals and advisors might have been buried. If there is going to be a quest, tracking down the dragon priests on her side, taking out potential rivals, and finding other friendly tombs while building a necromantic army might be the way to go. Might be all nords of the day did the draugr thing, not just dragon cult. That is a safe assumption. Anyone going against the Dragon Cult was ostracized at best, murdered at worst. Look at Miraak. Something to look up later, but there are at least 3 tombs with draugr bosses at the end and not dragon priests, so those could be your "loyal generals" to find, wake, lay, and gain as followers. I wonder if, as a female PC, you could fuck nords, gather their essences and return to your loyal dead. Filled with the Essence of Nord, you could CPR it back into them and, waking horny due to how you gathered the Essence, proceed to fuck you in thanks.

 

And now that I've spent so much time writing this that two that know more have posted under me, maybe this start on research will prove useful.

Yeah, I have the same problem.

 

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Gauldur

 

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Third_Era (there is an Era menu, so you can switch to first or second era timelines)

The UESP site is actually a goldmine for this sort of thing. You'd need to look up the merethic and first eras, as well as Harald, Gauldur, Skyrim, Nords, Nedes, daedra, divines, etc. in a grandly interwoven happy mess. I love it.

 

 

[DeepBlueFrog]

Thanks for the details.

The rough idea I have for her is that Gauldur was both her lover and mentor. They were working on taking power as equals, which is the real reason why King Harald killed them and scrubbed the records - to eradicate the idea of King and Queen ruling in concert.

 

The sons wanted her dead because of the threat she posed to their power.

 

Now that she has been awakened (the return of the dragons could be a trigger), she wants what she has been promised.

 

Becoming the new dragonborn could fit nicely in a twisted way.

[karlpaws]

Thanks for the details.

The rough idea I have for her is that Gauldur was both her lover and mentor. They were working on taking power as equals, which is the real reason why King Harald killed them and scrubbed the records - to eradicate the idea of King and Queen ruling in concert.

 

The sons wanted her dead because of the threat she posed to their power.

 

Now that she has been awakened (the return of the dragons could be a trigger), she wants what she has been promised.

 

Becoming the new dragonborn could fit nicely in a twisted way.

 

Yeah, I phrased it wrong, but the return of the dragons and the power they promise/represent could be both the catalyst for her rising (too close to Alduin at another dragon mound?) and a new source of her power to rise to her position.

 

Thanks to CC's amazing work, you can probably just say "no one knows anything" and make up whatever you want from whole cloth... murdered by the king by manipulating her rivals? sure.

 

This might be a good case of deciding where you want the ending, and then making up how to get there.

 

Another thing to ponder... would Tsun know of her if she didn't go to Sovnguard? Where did her spirit go on death, from where did it return to Nirn after death? Not that anyone else dead knowing her after she died does much, as they're still dead, but that could be a tie in to various daedra if you wanted. Could tie into Dagon and maybe involve the quest to get his Razor.