HKXPack/HKXAnim - Animations in FO4

[balthazard8888]

Seriously if the progress of Animations for Fallout 4 hinges on the usage of illegaly obtained software you guys should just post your efforts in an anonymous way.
There are ways(Tor/Proxy) to post your findings and files and host that converstation on a non-loverslab board. Please guys please consider this way.

[garg]

Seriously if the progress of Animations for Fallout 4 hinges on the usage of illegaly obtained software you guys should just post your efforts in an anonymous way.

There are ways(Tor/Proxy) to post your findings and files and host that converstation on a non-loverslab board. Please guys please consider this way.

 

It's only illegal now, if you have a copy of the non-commercial release before Microsoft (insert name calling here) screwed the gaming industry then I guess it's not!

[goldust]

it maybe so..i just dont know but if its a work around i say go for it

[Guest Dark8Paladin]

Seriously if the progress of Animations for Fallout 4 hinges on the usage of illegaly obtained software you guys should just post your efforts in an anonymous way.

There are ways(Tor/Proxy) to post your findings and files and host that converstation on a non-loverslab board. Please guys please consider this way.

+1

[HornySpaghetti]

I do not think it is legal to try and reverse engineer it but I doubt Microsoft will do anything about it as you are not profiting from it in any way. Although from what I have read you can still use the discontinued official tools, it is nevertheless a good idea to have an open source alternative. Good job and good luck on the project. I hope you can work on it when you have the time and that you will eventually finish it (at least the features that you have planned for now).

 

I know some java and I can probably help on that (or at least on the interface - I mainly use JavaFX for the desktop). I will have to read about the format for a bit and I really hope that I will be able to help.

[WhippinGirl]

 

Seriously if the progress of Animations for Fallout 4 hinges on the usage of illegaly obtained software you guys should just post your efforts in an anonymous way.

There are ways(Tor/Proxy) to post your findings and files and host that converstation on a non-loverslab board. Please guys please consider this way.

+1

 

I'm not a lawyer, but I think if figuring out how to read/write a file format were illegal, then the OpenOffice project would be in a heap of trouble for reverse-engineering the Microsoft Word document format (plus a whole slew of others), the GIMP foundation would be in trouble for reverse-engineering the PSD format, AND the DDS format (and others), and the Blender foundation would be in trouble for reverse-engineering several 3D formats.  Not to mention the LAME project for the MP3 format, which I think is actually patented.  I think it would be hard to find a legal precedent for such a lawsuit winning - and it usually comes down to precedent law.  The DMCA only covers reverse-engineering the software itself for piracy purposes. I think. Again, I'm not a lawyer. 

 

At any rate, I don't think we have much to worry about, legally speaking, with figuring out how to read/write a file format.

[DexesTTP]

Actually, the fact to create software that can read/write binary files stored in a so-called "proprietary" format has always been on the "allowed" limit of the american law, but just below. Note that it's not the case for every country (e.g. where I'm from it's totally allowed by law) but at least in the US it isn't 100% settled yet I believe.

 

However, the point here is that even if there's a problem, we can expect Havok or Microsoft to contact a dev directly to ask for the software development to stop (note that if it came to that, I intend to comply) rather than sending lawyers. This is hugely unlikely to happen as Microsoft both never had problems with Open Source software copying their stuff and probably intend to release an upgraded but retro-compatible version of this kind of tools down the line under a dev license (the kind you have to pay for only when the game has made a certain amount of money) which will make my stuff obsolete anyways.

 

The point of CPU's warning however was about diffusing the actual Havok tools. This tool is a "real" tool that is exclusively selled by Havok. Sharing it is 100% piracy and illegal, and as such shouldn't have it's place on this forum (even though there has been leeway when it's done quietly to "help out", it's frowned upon here and on most other places).

Don't forget that the guys who made this are hugely deserving of the money they get. Although the fact that we can't create animations is frustrating, this shouldn't be a reason to just give their stuff away (although I carry no judgement about the people that use pirated stuff, I'm against widespread diffusion of pirated software - at least make people work for it and understand that there's alternatives).

 

Also, making tutorials for creating animations with the Havok Content tools isn't illegal. You people are welcome to do it anytime

[ralfetas]

You cannot clain trademark for a file format, that's why many softwares can open and create .doc, .pdf etc...

[zechosen]

is loverlab being sued or something lately for this sudden 360º change

 

even with model rips

[Guest Dark8Paladin]

is loverlab being sued or something lately for this sudden 360º change

 

even with model rips

No (i dont think so ) they are discussing the havok tools that they need .as DexesTTP said : 'The point of CPU's warning however was about diffusing the actual Havok tools. This tool is a "real" tool that is exclusively selled by Havok. Sharing it is 100% piracy and illegal, and as such shouldn't have it's place on this forum' 

and since its considered piracy i dont think they are going to do that, someone did mention they could do it in private and use proxy's and stuff like that but i dont think they are going to do it 

 

and i think you mean 180 degrees ( not trying to be an ass)

[ag12]

My advise: don't upload the HCT. Don't publicly advertise pirating it either. Don't share links to it publicly either.

Just play it smart and do your naughty business were nobody but the naughty people see it.

Nobody is going to ask you whether you created that awesome animation with a legal or illegal copy of HCT, and mind you, there are tons of legal copies out there anyway. I guarantee you, not having the HCT publicly available isn't going to stop anyone most. 

 

 

Anyway, back to the actual topic of this thread: don't worry about legal consequences for working with the Havok file format, because there will not be any. As has been pointed out already, there is no issue with using file formats, just with using actual files and file writing systems.

Having said that, generic praise and thumbs up for everyone who's working on these tools.

[Halstrom]

Yeah in the end if someone uploads a animation pack with a few basic animations then everyone else can get rolling working on using them and confirming formats etc, regardless of how they were made, the number of people making them will probably only be 3 or 4 anyway.

[D_ManXX2]

I was wondering this part.. since havok tool was previously free and that is Eula i sighned on for. even if microsoft forces a new Eula on this tool my old Eula remains since i never excepted the new Eula created by microsoft. And there for can't be sued by Microsoft. However if they are stupid to persue this i will have a different one to sue them back witch is the forced update from windows 10 in that case there own sue will actually earn me money..

[Halstrom]

I was wondering this part.. since havok tool was previously free and that is Eula i sighned on for. even if microsoft forces a new Eula on this tool my old Eula remains since i never excepted the new Eula created by microsoft. And there for can't be sued by Microsoft. However if they are stupid to persue this i will have a different one to sue them back witch is the forced update from windows 10 in that case there own sue will actually earn me money..

Hmm I don't like your chances of successfully suing MS

[D_ManXX2]

I won't stand alone i got the EU behind me.

[WhippinGirl]

My advise: don't upload the HCT. Don't publicly advertise pirating it either. Don't share links to it publicly either.

Just play it smart and do your naughty business were nobody but the naughty people see it.

Nobody is going to ask you whether you created that awesome animation with a legal or illegal copy of HCT, and mind you, there are tons of legal copies out there anyway. I guarantee you, not having the HCT publicly available isn't going to stop anyone most. 

 

 

Anyway, back to the actual topic of this thread: don't worry about legal consequences for working with the Havok file format, because there will not be any. As has been pointed out already, there is no issue with using file formats, just with using actual files and file writing systems.

Having said that, generic praise and thumbs up for everyone who's working on these tools.

 

This part I agree with with.  No trading actual software, because that IS illegal.  I actually have a legal copy of the 2014 tools that I got just before they were discontinued.  Unfortunately, my student copy of 3ds Max 2014 is only good for three years, and I've had it over a year, so making any animations is going to be limited to that - and that's if I can get it to stop crashing every time I try to export.

 

Hence the need for our own HKX converter.

[ShadeAnimator]

Well, it happened to become a huge post, but I hope at least some people will read it through...

 

Guys, I'm in the middle of my own breakthrough with my hands on HCT 2014, but I need nif plugin for max... I only found links to VS project, and I really don't wanna dig into compiling it. Anyone knows where I can get a compiled plugin, preferably for max 2015, but earlier versions may work as well. If there is a maya 2014\2015 version, it'll be great too.

 

Or maybe someone is kind enough to compile those for me? Too much to ask I guess, but anyway, we have the same goal here. 

 

I will soon get my hands on a mocap suit, and just think about the potential here

 

===============

 

And, aside from that, I also support the need for HKX converter.  Here is how I see it, correct me if I'm wrong:

 

+ It eliminates the need to find and install HCT and, potentially, nif plugins (which is a pain in the ass, for Skyrim I spend weeks just to find everything needed, install the supported old version of max, install tools, etc etc... All this pain in the ass was really the reason I stopped making animations for Skyrim, I mean I am a professional animator, I have other animation which I get money for to do... Instead of spending DAYS figuring out how to export animations for skyrim..)

+ It eliminates dependency on 3dsmax\maya\blender and their versions, since they all can export fbx. Anyone can use whatever they want to make animiations.

+ The only tools an animator needs to make animations are:

+++ Preferred animation package (Maya, Max or Blender)

+++ NifSkope, which is easy to find and download. To extract models if needed.

+++ HKXAnim exporter

 

Or... nifplugin still needed to import the model, huh? At least for animators someone could provide an FBX version of a skeleton and mesh, which we, animators, could rig and use, and then export fbx, convert it to hkx, everyone's happy. Riggers\Scripters could even make a button "Export to hkx", which could potentially select the necessary bones, export fbx and automatically run hkx converter...

 

As a rigger\animator\scripter, I can also say this:

 

Dependency on scripting languages like: Python, MaxScript, Mel = Good

Dependency on C++ SDKs, version-dependent dlls, etc = BAD

 

And I also sent a PM about it, but will say it here as well:

If you need help with GUI, I can make one using Python and PySide. The idea is that gui file (exe for windows, .py for linux\mac if needed) will reside in the same folder as your comman-line tool (exe?), and under the hood GUI will just use GUI-provided variables to run command-line tool. Should be simple enough for everyone, and also leave your original command-line tool untouched.

 

===============

 

Speaking about HCT tools. I really don't understand the fuss about HCT tools and uploading them somewhere. I don't think that Microsoft can really do anything about it, and neither will they really care if modders use these tools for non-commercial products. Really, all they care about is profit. As far as you don't stand between them and some huge sum of money, they will probably not care about it.

 

Talk about "these guys deserve money" does not really stand against one simple fact - tools were free. And they still allow people who downloaded them to use them. So technically this probably means that the tools are still free, but the SUPPORT of them is not provided anymore, including the hosting of the tools for download. You don't even need to provide any license key when you install HCT. Only for additional features, which are not needed for our work.

 

That said, I have hct... just saying. Not advertising or anything. Just... saying

[pipdude]

 

Well, it happened to become a huge post, but I hope at least some people will read it through...

 

 

Thank you for looking into this. I hope you don't lose patience and move on. I would definitely like to see your work. And with a mocap suit? Could be wild.

 

It sounds like there is a path to make animations from Blender (notes should still be earlier in this thread). But, my ability in this area is pretty limited. So, am also waiting for a complete set of tools needed to work from Max.

 

What is the deal with the "nif_exporter" that comes packaged with CreationKit? Is that not the nif plugin needed here? Assuming not, does the old nif plugin for Skyrim not cover what is needed for Fallout 4? Sorry if dumb questions.

 

 

 

Speaking about HCT tools. I really don't understand the fuss about HCT tools and uploading them somewhere. I don't think that Microsoft can really do anything about it, and neither will they really care if modders use these tools for non-commercial products. Really, all they care about is profit. As far as you don't stand between them and some huge sum of money, they will probably not care about it.

 

Talk about "these guys deserve money" does not really stand against one simple fact - tools were free. And they still allow people who downloaded them to use them. So technically this probably means that the tools are still free, but the SUPPORT of them is not provided anymore, including the hosting of the tools for download. You don't even need to provide any license key when you install HCT. Only for additional features, which are not needed for our work.

 

That said, I have hct... just saying. Not advertising or anything. Just... saying 

 

 

True. Probably low on their priorities. Though, I could see that changing if there was negative press about adult mods in video games at some point.

 

Hasn't really happened so far. So, maybe a non-issue.

 

 

 

[DexesTTP]

<snip>

 

 

Thanks a lot !

 

Just to give some more infos, the format I use to manipulate animations isn't FBX but Collada (also known as DAE for some reason), which seems native when importing/exporting from Blender and Maya but needs an official plugin by Kronos for 3DsMax.

 

The reason is that the FBX format requires some of these DLLs to be used, while COLLADA is just XML data so I don't need much to use it.

 

 

I worked a little bit more on the tool these past two days. I managed to finish the whole internal workflow for export, and I'm only left with some minor details (mostly matrix members order and some baking to do) to deal with. I've pushed my progress so far on GitHub, and I'll see tonight if I can fix the remaining issues.

 

Also, I managed to make two kind of big improvements on the way the tool work.

 

The first one is the ability to create an animation "from scratch", meaning that there's no need for a skeleton file or anything like that. I wrote a program that'll automatically select the skeleton from the .dae file and bake it into the output HKX file.

 

The second one is the possible ability to read and create a DAE file with the (unrigged) Havok skeleton inside, from a .hkx file. This is still work in progress, but could potentially mean that all the creatures could be animated directly, without the need for custom project files for them.

[ShadeAnimator]

 

 

The second one is the possible ability to read and create a DAE file with the (unrigged) Havok skeleton inside, from a .hkx file. This is still work in progress, but could potentially mean that all the creatures could be animated directly, without the need for custom project files for them.

 

Well, that sounds really neat.

 

As I mentioned in my post - reducing steps required to get skeleton into animation package and then animation out of the animation package - is key.

Ideally we need to make something like animation SDK or Animator's Kit for FO4, which should include:

 

1. All the tools and plugins required to work with animations. Preferably universal, or covering as much animation packages and versions as possible. Or all revolving around ONE program and version, it can also make it easy. Finding, say, Max 2013 is not as hard as trying to dig through dozens of different plugins and trying to pin point the version which supports most of them... 

 

2. Detailed step by step instructions and tutorials.

[ShadeAnimator]

I opened it! Yay! Found the right nif plugin. Here https://github.com/figment/max_nif_plugin/releases/tag/3.8.0

 

Okay, cool. So far the trick is:

 

1. 3ds max 2014 or 2015. Both opened the file, and has HCT support.

2. Havok Content Tools 2014. You CAN find them, a lot of people have, just google or.. ask. Someone. Not pointing fingers here.

3. Nif plugin from here:  https://github.com/figment/max_nif_plugin/releases/tag/3.8.0

4. JoshNZs scene, hko settings file and Fallout4Rig.txt, from here http://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/14503/?

 

 

Can anyone test this and confirm if this is working file or not? Character should sit down on knees and rise right arm up... if right arm is curved a bit, it's okay, just Josh's IK rig I did not really do anything yet with the scene.

 

Here is the test file: http://www.mediafire.com/download/37weppwji5vcbvg/PoseA_IdleDialogue6.hkx

 

 

So far the process seems pretty straight forward. Install max, install HCT (automatic installer), copy plugin files into Max folder. Open the scene, and to export follow Josh's instructions. 

[pipdude]

I haven't fired Fallout up for a while. Will get it caught up for modding and test this tomorrow if someone doesn't get to it first.

[garg]

I opened it! Yay! Found the right nif plugin. Here https://github.com/figment/max_nif_plugin/releases/tag/3.8.0

 

Okay, cool. So far the trick is:

 

1. 3ds max 2014 or 2015. Both opened the file, and has HCT support.

2. Havok Content Tools 2014. You CAN find them, a lot of people have, just google or.. ask. Someone. Not pointing fingers here.

3. Nif plugin from here:  https://github.com/figment/max_nif_plugin/releases/tag/3.8.0

4. JoshNZs scene, hko settings file and Fallout4Rig.txt, from here http://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/14503/?

 

 

Can anyone test this and confirm if this is working file or not? Character should sit down on knees and rise right arm up... if right arm is curved a bit, it's okay, just Josh's IK rig I did not really do anything yet with the scene.

 

Here is the test file: http://www.mediafire.com/download/37weppwji5vcbvg/PoseA_IdleDialogue6.hkx

 

 

So far the process seems pretty straight forward. Install max, install HCT (automatic installer), copy plugin files into Max folder. Open the scene, and to export follow Josh's instructions. 

 

 Your test anim works exactly as you said! Brilliant!

 

Test Anim Vid.rar

[DexesTTP]

<snip>

<snip>

Excellent !

 

ShadeAnimator, I added your post to the opening post under the "Create Animations" part (tell me if you'd prefere it not to be there).

 

Good to see progress being made, and I hope it'll be enough for creating all the needed animations for now.

[ShadeAnimator]

Awesome. Yeah, I will write a little bit more detailed guide later, but for now this will do... Maybe try it out with Maya as well... Hm, can anyone describe to me steps to test animation in the game myself? So I don't bother you guys with testing each one In skyrim I remember I was just replacing the main idle loop animation, that was okay... It would be great if I could replace multiple animations at once and test them one after another through console like garg did.

 

Few more questions to answer

 

• There is also concern about how to add new skeletons, right?
• And is there a separate male and female skeletons in the game?
• Here I used JoshNZ's scene, it already had a skeleton and mesh inside. But where did he get it? It has a CBBE mesh inside. Did he get it from CBBE generator app, or did he rip it from the game? How do I import skeleton and mesh? This will be needed to work with any other future skeleton.

====

 

But still, Dexes, don't stop developing your tool. My only worry concerning it is whether you'd be able to replicate all the required features or not... Like animation notifies, I remember they used them a lot in Skyrim. Generally animation notifies are used for ALOT of stuff in gamedev, it is basically the way to call any game function at a given animation frame. Which includes:

 

- sounds (footsteps for example)

- effects (dust from footsteps, particles spawning at a given socket\locator\helper object)

- damage triggering

- decapitation ("decapitate" notify in Skyrim worked in death animation, i spent weeks playing with it )