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Why LOOT is much better than BOSS ever could be


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Now after playing for several hours once I installed and ran LOOT I have found an issue. I am now getting CTDs when changing cells at times. And this has never happened a single time on this installation (once I did a fresh install months ago and TES5Edit-cleaned everything then only used Mod Organizer). So now I need to find the source of the issue and load order is all it could possibly be since that's all that has changed. Once I find the issue I'll be sure to report it.

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I think the one thing I liked about BOSS, was everything was organized nicely. With LOOT, everything is just a mess in my load order. Sure it might be the way it just sorts stuff, but there is no organization to it whatsoever! It is driving my OCD over the wall.

 

But...... I'm going to try it regardless, since BOSS is no longer being updated. Hopefully all that nonsense that it does will not destroy my game. When I used BOSS, everything was fine. Never had any load order issues. No idea why it had to change to LOOT now. What's that old saying? If it's not broke, don't fix it? That's how I feel with LOOT. BOSS worked just fine for doing exactly what it needed to do. Sort my load order. If something was unrecognized, I knew where to move and edited my userlist accordingly. But LOOT on the other hand, that mess of a load order it gives me, and then I have no idea how to customize my load order either (it says to drag a plugin to the box, yet I won't let me....). It is just so confusing.

 

But here goes nothing and hopefully it works....

 

EDIT: As well, how are you supposed to use this with SkyProc Patchers? Dual Sheath Redux wants to run BOSS, but I'm using LOOT instead. Ugh.....

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Some replies grouped to reduce my repeated post numbers.
you are welcome to use stupid face thingies in your posts, they get gleefully destroyed if I quote you though, they are banned from my posts.

I thought this was a good Idea, wow this was hard work to complete sorry it took so long to get back to all RL and this monster post.

 

BOSS a single Mod entry could be a single line or as many as 20+ lines and long lines as well. the MasterList has 43,000 Lines, so even if we assume 1 line per mod thats over half of mods unlisted, the actual number is nearer 30,000 at a generous guess, so more like 2/3 of mods totally unlisted and we've not even considered updates at all.

 
As we are talking numbers how many/what percent have you deducted for mods that don't have a ESM/ESP to be sorted?
 
Other than that ya make a pretty good case tbh though as i've not had a problem with BOSS (i use TES5Edit to work out where to place mods in load order that BOSS doesnt recognise) I'll probably hold off on switching.

 

 


Just a educated (Looking at the MasterList) guess It is certainly lees than number of lines, that would need 1 file per line as for total files latest NexusID gives number of mods posted and for sure many have no ESM/ESP File but Many Mods have multiple entries with options and even multiple ESM/ESP's in a single archive.
I've tried to be conservative and my top estimate for maximum possible file numbers is around 200,000.
I've gone for ModID Total = Nexus ESM/ESP's Total × 2 All other Sites ESM/ESP's
This results in 50,000 × 2 = 100,000
A reasonable guess but still a guess the exact numbers are not that important, it is close enough to illustrate the issue (Consider that a 20% margin of error is in effect so the real number is 80,000 to 120,000 and remember this includes all ESM/ESP's ever made and if an update changes a file requirement, it requires a separate entry in BOSS not an updated one.
When each DLC is released theoretically all original Mods need a new entry, that is the Maximum possible effect, but certainly Dawnguard and Dragonborn produced many cases.
So I consider my number a conservative estimate.
LOOT numbers are very accurate see my last post for further details on how I got them.
 
Summary
They illustrate the issues involved and that is the purpose in this case, not to be 100% accurate, but close enough to show the problem BOSS has, they are made by the same author, to do the same job. This explains why LOOT was made and why it's much better than BOSS at doing that job.
 
One last point BOSS v3 is LOOT the name was changed because users who should have known better hassled the author so much when it was a Beta and needed the 0.1% specials finding and correcting. the mob jumped on these few mods and the fact that it took no notice of BOSS's A to Z group sorting to claim BOSS was broken and shouldn't be used at all (Even v2). Wrinkly Ninja was rightfully outraged at this attitude and while Drunk changed the name to LOOT, he seriously considered withdrawing LOOT and himself from Modding, wise counsel and a sober head prevailed to keep him going, the wise counsellors chastized the mob mentality with sound logic and reasoning, but the new name stayed, I would have stuck with BOSS v3. I was one of those wise councillors (Not directly involved but already using BOSS v3 before the name change
BOSS v3·0 Alpha 5
was the first version I tried there were over the course of about a year of testing there were 9 Alpha and 16 Beta releases and the change occured very late.
BOSS v3·0·0 Beta 14 [Released 25th February 2014] became LOOT v0·5·0 Beta 15 [Released 8th March 2014]
LOOT v0·5·0 Beta 16 [Released 8th March 2014] and finally LOOT v0·5·0 [Released 31st March 2014] it was I believe unchanged from Beta 16 which would have been the actual release but for the hysteria. That's what made it so annoying and why I shove LOOT in your face, it was nearly destroyed by Luddites (What's Luddites, 17th centuary weaving machine destroying mobs, google for more) mainly because they never really understood BOSS and LOOT did things differently.

 

I am still using good ol' v1.1.1... Haven't upgraded. I couldn't get the version above this one to work properly (believe it was 1.1.2 or something along those lines) Something about the internal installer and such. There are alot of MO users here because Sexout developer Ashal is using MO for Skyirm also AwefulArchdemon and other are religiously preaching the benefits of MO. Lots of new converts...

and

I am using MO version 1.0.11 and LOOT works fine. I did run it outside of MO once then set it as an executable.

 


Yes well there was an issue with the NCC Tool for v1.1.2
NCC Downgrade
This update fixes that problem so you should update to v1.1.2 and then add this update which will fix the problem.
While the Beta versions currently v1.2+ or optional the Official Support is for the Current version only at this moment that is v1.1.2
I urge everyone to update to v1.1.2 it is the only supported version and all information given should apply to that version.
Two caveats to that are

  • Tannin only has time to write the program, he will respond to some questions mainly on official Forum but sometimes on Nexus post tab (Awful thing). Most forum reponses and the Wiki are entirely made by helpful users (this user is helpful yes). They are usually accurate when written, but can become outdated. If you know or think something is wrong, be a helpful user and say so on the official forum.
    The Wiki is written by DoubleYou=90%, Wolverine#### (Numbers 2711 I think bad memory)=5%, Uhuru (Me)=>1% Others=<4%
    Only if 100% sure should you directly edit the Wiki, post about it if not.
  • Beta versions are evoving towards the next stable version, for Beta specific issues say you are using beta.
    If unsure the version listed at the top part of Nexus Page is the Stable Version. Beta's can only be downloaded manually, never using built in update system.

 

 

Ive tested LOOT and so far it works fine, got 200+mods, ive not yet seen any thing wrong with my build.
 
Some mods i still place lower loadorder it's just better.
 
I use NMM(never had any trouble with but i know what i am doing).
 
If you see faults in the gopher video pls mention it here people wanne learn
 
Just trial error it's all not that hard.
 
Good luck

 


Moving mods for personal preference reasons, it's acceptable, if you're sure it makes no practical difference (Checked the required masters of the mods are the same using TES5Edit). If already LOOT sorted, checking the mod above the new spot should be enough, same masters and you're good to go.
It's just your preference though, no practical purpose is served.
 
Not many Factual Errors in his Videos if any exist they are usually because something has changed, the flaws are exactly what I said before

  • NMM is a bad Manager with game breaking issues (failing to uninstall mods correctly is usual cause).
  • The obsession with adding many games to it makes each games support less.
  • My main issue with it is that they took Timeslip's very good Mod Manager (ObMM, FoMM and FoMM NV) that got better with each version, chose Oblivion the oldest to port which stripped most of the features out. They never put them back, but above all that it was not named SkMM but NMM which fools new users into thinking it's the best. (I detest that the most)
    • Multi-game came later when they panicked at the arrival of SW and if it worked for the other Bethesda games so what (ObMM, FoMM and FoMM NV) were all much better than it never mind other managers. It was for Skyrim first and foremost. Linking it to Nexus Name gives it Premier status and implies its the Best choice, without that link where would it be in the Mod Lists at least 3rd choice and if FoMM NV was Skyrim Enabled 4th.

Back to Gopher

  • NMM he recommends without comparing to others, not the standard he aspires to achieve. it's not really about his own choice but the advice he gives, in recent live streams he has said he should test other (MO was the one) managers, that's a now self admitted flaw.
  • Not keeping Archives, simply for mods being withdrawn it is a good practice and also for rollbacks, in a recent Mod Testing Stream he was hampered by doing this and again admitted he should keep the archives, another self admitted flaw.
  • Bashed Patch is his worst flaw and the only one I would call an error as he ignores the facts, someone using SkyRe should know this is vital to make mods work together as designed, the saving grace is it's not really a game breaking error.
  • I've explained this before as part of one of these Multi-Topic Answers, but it is very important so I repeat that Now in detail

Levelled Lists Basic HowTo and More Indepth Why you have to use a Bashed Patch and how easy it is to do


But Wrye Bash is too Hard to Learn how to use
You are not learning how to use WB at all, just making a Bashed Patch.
I use Mod Organizer and have never used NMM and have not learnt how to use WB at all, I use it only for making a bashed patch.
 
If you do not make a Bashed Patch you may have in theory assuming all DLC a maximum of 250 Mods that change the levelled Lists and only the last changes will be applied.
 
From WB Advanced ReadMe
When different plugins alter the same leveled list, only the last loaded plugin's changes get applied. This tends not to be what is wanted. The leveled list patcher circumvents the issue by instead merging all the changes made to leveled lists and having this merged set of changes applied.
The load order of plugins is still important to the result of the leveled list patcher. It decides what plugins' effects override others.
Hidden to reduce Post size only




I currently have in the Profile I'm using
Update.ESM
Unofficial Skyrim Patch.ESP
Dawnguard.ESM
Unofficial Dawnguard Patch.ESP
Unofficial Dragonborn Patch.ESP
Hothtrooper44_ArmorCompilation.ESP
 
So in my case without using a Bashed Patch only Hothtrooper44_ArmorCompilation.ESP also known as Immersive Armours changes are applied.
Is that OK, well no not really even if as in my case only vanilla and Unnofficial Patches are left and without knowing exactly what changes are made we must assume Immersive Armours Author has manually changed (a time consuming process it is said) only those items he placed in specific points and relied on vanilla placements for the replaced armours. So a Bashed Patch is an essential mod just for the Levelled Lists.


Making the Bashed Patch
In MO you just start WB within MO as with all 3rd Party Programs (Because it Uses Virtual Data Folder not real one, only way the 3rd Party Programs can function), NMM and WB use Data folder so just start it.
Let Wrye Bash get going and at bottom of List of plugins you have
Bashed Patch, 0.ESP
Simply right click on the Bashed Patch, 0.ESP to bring up context menu and select
Rebuild Patch
A new window opens with what the patch will change which until very recently (I noticed at start of this year) meant only;

  • Alias Mod Names which is all user renames added so not really used by most and not recommended at all.
  • Levelled Lists which is what is required to allow more than one item in same container (the issue Golgo13 has)

All you actualy must do to get basic functions is
Click Build Patch Button.
Thats it job Done for NMM.
Mod Organizer puts the Bashed Patch, 0.ESP in Overwite Folder and as always Make a Mod Folder named to your choice. Then its Done
Finally it is a Dynamic Patch which simply means it's content changes often.
Just as with FNIS and other Dynamic Patches add or remove a Mod then Rebuild Bashed Patch, also as with FNIS it may not be absolutely necessary every Mod Change but does no harm so if in doubt Redo all such Patchers.
 
To recap all you do is
Run Wrye Bash and Right Click on Bashed Patch, 0.ESP
Select Rebuild Patch and Click Build Patch in new window
Run BOSS or LOOT and the job is donee
On Mod Change Redo above. Simple and easy
 
The Bashed Patch will be put at bottom of the LO only followed by a few others, Dynamic Patchers like SkyProc Patchers (SkyRe, AV, DSR etc).

Where BOSS MasterList is always out of date LOOT can deal with brand new mods as soon as they are released.
 
Those who want to learn more can read on but for actual Level Lists requirements the above is enough and let me make it perfectly clear. I only knew those steps before this post. I have just now researched the rest of this to be sure of the facts when explaining why this is essential to do.


I am good at gathering the essential facts required and try to say the same thing in two ways.

A do this, do that, shut up and get on with it style for those who don't care why just how.
Along with an in Depth and Detailed explanaition that can often repeat the same detail explained differently, but here Wrye Bash Documentation is some of the best there is although it's due an update now, most of this is directly cut from that.

The key reason I chose MO over WB was the lack of developement for Skyrim Wrye Smash (My opinion is merging it with Oblivion WB when SW arrrived, also same with NMM All game plan, was a knee jerk panic reaction, which made both of them actually worse not better)
as all the effort was on merging code and Wrye's well thought out one Wrye (*)ash per game system, which had worked so well keeping each version sharp and specific to the needs of that game was thrown away. Skyrim users never got even a working Bashed Patch which to my mind is WB's Killer Feature, Only it can do these functions and nothing has successfully been made to replace it.
Merge Patching is the only Area to see alternate Tools and currently MatorTheEternal's TES5Edit Scripts are the clear leader of the pack for merging plugin ability, but some skill is required to use them.
Now LoJack has returned things seem to be moving and Bashed Patch is starting to become even more useful.
 
Colour Code Meaning
Before 2012/06/07 (Last WB General ReadMe Update)
Before 2012/06/07 (Last WB Advanced ReadMe Update)
Recent Additions (Last few Months) Marked as Oblivion only in ReadMe but are now active in WB
Important Warning (Skyrim Section Only)
Oblivion Only. (Spoilered Full List Only)
 
From
WB Advanced ReadMe

Leveled Lists

The leveled list patcher is slightly odd in comparison to the others: it's effectively an Import... patcher, but its options are decided automatically by default.
First, a bit of background. When different plugins alter the same leveled list, only the last loaded plugin's changes get applied. This tends not to be what is wanted. The leveled list patcher circumvents the issue by instead merging all the changes made to leveled lists and having this merged set of changes applied.
The leveled list merging is dictated by related Bash Tags, and functions as follows.

  • The LO of plugins is still important to the result of the leveled list patcher. It decides what plugins' effects override others.
  • Untagged plugins can only add new entries to leveled lists. If such a plugin adds an entry that already exists, it will be ignored. Furthermore, even if another plugin has already marked that entry as removed, it will not be re-added.
  • Delev tagged plugins can remove entries from leveled lists. Any items present in such a plugin's masters but not in the plugin itself will be removed.
  • Relev tagged plugins can relevel an existing entry (ie. change its levels and/or counts in the list), and can also override previous deletions of entries from leveled lists. However, it does not prevent a later-loading Delev tagged plugin from then removing an entry again.
  • Delev and Relev tagged mods simply combines the effects of the Delev and Relev Bash Tags.
  • In addition to the above, the leveled list patcher removes any empty sublists from leveled lists, as these would otherwise cause the leveled list to select nothing if such a sublist was picked in-game.

It's best to simply ensure that your plugins have the correct tags and leave this section on automatic. To add plugins to or remove plugins from the list, uncheck the Automatic checkbox, and use the Add or Remove buttons. The latter will remove the currently selected plugin.
To manually override the Delev/Relev Bash Tags for a plugin, right-click it in the section list and check or uncheck the relevant options as desired. To return to the automatic setting, select the Auto option in the right-click menu.

From WB General ReadMe
A Bashed Patch is a configurable plugin with three main functions:

  • Merging plugins into itself. Merged plugins can be deactivated, avoiding the 255 plugin limit.
  • Importing specific types of data records from plugins. This can be used to avoid compatibility issues.
  • Applying tweaks to the game. This avoids the need to use other mods to apply the same tweaks.

These Bullet Lists are neat tables in ReadMe but only words are left after previewing post all the neat table stuff vanishes even though it cut and pasted fine. So I Improvised not as neat or simple but hopefully clear enough as was a pain to format anyway and No Table function is available.

  • Section
    • Description
      • When You Should Use It
  • Alias Mod Names
    • Allows WB to recognise some common renamings of plugins that are referenced in .csv data files that it imports as part of some Bashed Patch sections. Renamings should be listed in the text box for this section. The format is Old.ESP => New.ESP.
      • If you have renamed a plugin that is referenced in a CSV file you have selected in the Bashed Patch's configuration. It is recommended that you refrain from renaming plugins, as it can break parts of WB and other utilities.
  • Merge Patches
    • Plugins that contain only certain types of data records can be merged into the Bashed Patch. This then allows these plugins to be deactivated, freeing up space in your LO.
      • You should check the checkboxes of all the plugins listed, and ensure the section is checked too. Once the Bashed Patch is built, these plugins can then be deactivated (WB will ask to do this for you).
      • Do not remove merged mods from your Data folder. They will need to be present when you next rebuild your Bashed Patch.
  • Import Names
    • Preserves the changes made to various names throughout the game by the mods selected.
      • The decision is entirely based on user preference. Choose whichever mods' names you prefer.
  • Import Stats
    • Preserves the changes made by the mods selected to spells in order to fix bugs or rebalance them.
      • Always, unless you are told otherwise by a Mod's ReadMe. There is an element of user preference, for instance if you are using several mods that overhaul item stats. In such cases, choose whichever mods' stats you prefer.
  • Tweak Settings
    • Contains a set of tweaks that changes various global and non-global game settings.
      • The decision is entirely based on user preference.
  • Leveled Lists
    • Merges changes made to leveled lists by mods to increase compatibility between them.
      • Always. If you don't have any mods that alter leveled lists, the option won't do anything, in which case it doesn't hurt to have it enabled.

 


Finally Just to show how much more work is needed to just equal Oblivion Bashed Patch Functions




Importing From Plugins

  • Section
    • Description
      • When You Should Use It
  • Import Actors
    • Oblivion Only. Preserves changes made to actors (ie. NPC's and Creatures) by the mods selected.
      • Always, unless you are told otherwise by a Mod's ReadMe.
  • Import Actors: AIPackages
    • Oblivion Only. Merges the changes made to actor AI packages by all the mods selected.
      • Always, unless you are told otherwise by a Mod's ReadMe.
  • Import Actors: Animations
    • Oblivion Only. Merges the changes made to actor animations by all the mods selected.
      • Always, unless you are told otherwise by a Mod's ReadMe.
  • Import Actors: Death Items
    • Oblivion Only. Preserves the changes made to the items added to an actor when it dies by the mods selected.
      • Always, unless you are told otherwise by a Mod's ReadMe.
  • Import Actors: Spells
    • Oblivion Only. Preserves the changes made to the spells actors have by the mods selected.
      • Always, unless you are told otherwise by a Mod's ReadMe.
  • Import Cells
    • Oblivion Only. Preserves the changes made by the mods selected to cell settings such as lighting, climate, music, name, owner, water and more.
      • Always, unless you are told otherwise by a Mod's ReadMe.
  • Import Factions
    • Oblivion Only. Preserves the changes made to the factions an actor belongs to by the mods selected.
      • Always, unless you are told otherwise by a Mod's ReadMe.
  • Import Graphics
    • Oblivion Only. Preserves the changes made by the mods selected to various textures and models throughout the game.
      • The decision is entirely based on user preference. Choose whichever mods' graphics you prefer.
  • Import Inventory
    • Oblivion Only. Merges the changes made to the items in an actor's inventory by all the mods selected.
      • Always, unless you are told otherwise by a Mod's ReadMe.
  • Import NPC Faces
    • Oblivion Only. Preserves the changes made to NPC faces by the mods selected.
      • The decision is entirely based on user preference. Choose whichever mods' NPC faces you prefer.
  • Import Names
    • Oblivion Only. Preserves the changes made to various names throughout the game by the mods selected.
      • The decision is entirely based on user preference. Choose whichever mods' names you prefer.
  • Import Relations
    • Oblivion Only. Preserves the changes made by the mods selected to how factions interact.
      • Always, unless you are told otherwise by a Mod's ReadMe.
  • Import Roads
    • Oblivion Only. Preserves the changes made by the mods selected to the landscape's roads.
      • Always, unless you are told otherwise by a Mod's ReadMe.
  • Import Script Contents
    • Oblivion Only. Copies scripts from the selected mods into the Bashed Patch.
      • Never.
  • Import Scripts
    • Oblivion Only. Preserves the changes made by the mods selected to the scripts attached to things in the game.
      • Always, unless you are told otherwise by a Mod's ReadMe.
  • Import Sounds
    • Oblivion Only. Preserves the changes made by the mods selected to various sounds in the game.
      • The decision is entirely based on user preference. Choose whichever mods' sounds you prefer.
  • Import Spell Stats
    • Oblivion Only. Preserves the changes made by the mods selected to items in order to fix bugs or rebalance them.
      • Always, unless you are told otherwise by a Mod's ReadMe. There is an element of user preference, for instance if you are using several mods that overhaul spell stats. In such cases, choose whichever mods' stats you prefer.
  • Import Stats
    • Oblivion Only. Preserves the changes made by the mods selected to spells in order to fix bugs or rebalance them.
      • Always, unless you are told otherwise by a Mod's ReadMe. There is an element of user preference, for instance if you are using several mods that overhaul item stats. In such cases, choose whichever mods' stats you prefer.

Applying Tweaks

  • Tweak Actors
    • Oblivion Only. Allows you to change a number of the game's settings relating to actors (ie. NPC's).
      • The decision is entirely based on user preference.
  • Tweak Assorted
    • Oblivion Only. Contains a set of miscellaneous tweaks to the game.
      • The Bow Reach Fix and Nvidia Fog Fix are recommended for all users, as they fix bugs that may be uncovered by mods. The DarNified Books option is recommended for users of DarNified UI. Other than those, the decision is entirely based on user preference.
  • Tweak Clothes
    • Oblivion Only. Contains a set of tweaks that changes settings relating to the game's clothing.
      • The decision is entirely based on user preference.
  • Tweak Names
    • Oblivion Only. Contains a set of tweaks that changes the names of things in the game. Most change the names to change how they are sorted in your inventory.
      • The decision is entirely based on user preference.
  • Tweak Settings
    • Oblivion Only. Contains a set of tweaks that changes various global and non-global game settings.
      • The UOP Vampire Aging and Face Fix.ESP tweak is recommended for all Oblivion users. Otherwise, the decision is entirely based on user preference.

Other Bashed Patch Options

  • Alias Mod Names
    • Allows WB to recognise some common renamings of plugins that are referenced in *.CSV data files that it imports as part of some Bashed Patch sections. Renamings should be listed in the text box for this section. The format is Old.ESP => New.ESP.
      • If you have renamed a plugin that is referenced in a CSV file you have selected in the Bashed Patch's configuration. It is recommended that you refrain from renaming plugins, as it can break parts of WB and other utilities.
  • Replace Form IDs
    • Oblivion Only. Replaces a set of FormID's with another set of FormID's defined by a *.CSV file.
      • If you use a mod that tells you to use it.
  • Cobl Catalogs
    • Oblivion Only. Updates CObl's ingredient and effect catalogs to take into account those added by mods you use.
      • If you use CObl.
  • Cobl Exhaustion
    • Oblivion Only. Updates greater powers added by the mods that are listed in the selected *.CSV file options so that they're compatible with CObl's Exhaustion feature.
      • If you use CObl's Exhaustion feature.
  • Contents Checker
    • Oblivion Only. Checks that leveled lists and inventories contain the correct types of entries, and removes any incorrect entries.
      • Always.
  • Leveled Lists
    • Merges changes made to leveled lists by mods to increase compatibility between them.
      • Always. If you don't have any mods that alter leveled lists, the option won't do anything, in which case it doesn't hurt to have it enabled.
  • Morph Factions
    • Oblivion Only. Updates factions so that they are more likely to work with Wrye Morph.
      • If you use CObl and Wrye Morph.
  • Power Exhaustion
    • Oblivion Only. This is an option provided for backwards-compatibility only and was deprecated then finally removed in Wrye Bash v296. Users of Power Exhaustion should upgrade to CObl and use its Exhaustion feature instead.
      • Never.
  • Race Records
    • Oblivion Only. Some mods make changes to races and want those changes to be preserved even if another mod changes the same race. This ensures that those changes are kept. It also checks for and fixes various errors such as googly eyes and missing hair or eyes. It also has a section of race tweaks which the user can select as desired.
      • Always, even if there are no mods listed on the right.
  • SEWorld Tests
    • Oblivion Only. Fixes quests that aren't suspended while your character is in the Shivering Isles. This doesn't apply to mod-added quests, it only restores suspension to vanilla quests where mods have removed it.
      • Always. If you don't have Shivering Isles, the option won't do anything, in which case it doesn't hurt to have it enabled.

 




Don't get me wrong, I like Gophers Videos and his advice is always good, but he does not claim to be perfect and always right in his choices, they are his choices and right for him, advice giving is different though, nothing is right for everyone, Mod Managers are a choice you must make. I am biased towards MO I make that clear, he is biased towards NMM but doesn't make that clear.
 
Some treat gopher like the pope, he is infallible and can't be wrong, I say again as long as you are aware he is only human and does have flaws, his advice is generally very good and I recommend his videos, especially the tutorials, to everybody. Just be aware he's not perfect, his advice is not perfect, he says the same, it applies to us all, even me (Surely Not, sadly it's true I'm not perfect, but don't tell everybody, if they think I am that's fine by me).

 

I only found 1 issue with LOOT (so far).  The mod Bound Armory ( http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/45042 ) had a conflict with another mod that caused the bound pickaxe to not be recognized as a pickaxe.  The BOSS MasterList had the BA mod sorted so that the conflict didn't appear.  Unfortunately I had a machine issue so I haven't had a chance to investigate and report it to the developers.  Other than that, I haven't had any other issues come up using LOOT.

and

Now after playing for several hours once I installed and ran LOOT I have found an issue. I am now getting CTDs when changing cells at times. And this has never happened a single time on this installation (once I did a fresh install months ago and TES5Edit-cleaned everything then only used Mod Organizer). So now I need to find the source of the issue and LO is all it could possibly be since that's all that has changed. Once I find the issue I'll be sure to report it.

 


 
Simply stated LO is about only one thing Loading the game, nothing else at all.
 
This is a common misunderstanding of LO's purpose, if the game Loads the LO is correct, it's that simple, did this "work" not really it certainly stopped that specefic issue, but it will almost certainly have created others. This is using a sledgehammer to crack a nut, yes the nut is cracked but not edible.
This needs further explanation as often it will be posted that changing LO "Fixed" an Issue. This is badly misinformed, but superficially can appear true.
That's why this is at the bottom of My OP, I accept soime responsibility I forgot to put a Huge Title their in Big Angry Red Letters, Like This
LO has only one Purpose to Load the Game.
If you are running about in Skyrim the LO is Right. It needs no changes at all. Read this to understand
Fixed it now, Please read the OP Angry Red Letters are a recent Addition. Just for you guys.
Seriously if after reading you have comments or questions I'm all ears, big pointy elven ears, well I wouldn't be all ears if they weren't.
 

 

The only problem I've had with LOOT is patches that don't necessarily have both ESP's in it's dependency table (forget the correct term, but I hope that's descriptive enough) They're mostly my own patches so it's easy for me to create rules for them, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are some in the same category floating around the nexus. CCO patches come to mind first.
 
So I've been running LOOT on my current load order for the dirty edit, delev/relev and other info, then resorting with BUM. 
 
Edit: I'll probably take the leap on my next play through, but I really dislike the metadata editing in LOOT
 
Edit2: 'cuz I think I'll learn a bit here about better usage of LOOT

 


Sorry to here that, but exactly why are both mods not required as masters, if they are but just not listed you should List them, your fault, you fix.
If there is a valid reason for them not to be listed, they simply need a MasterList entry, as they are your Mods No Fault but you should report to LOOT Team, thats the basic problems solution.
I'm not blaming you just saying those are the existing solutions to the issue, any user can report the issue to the LOOT Team.
Maker can both fix the Mod if possible or report if not. these are the few mods that may need a MasterList entry for correct sorting.
Most mods may already be in list, your mods may already be in list.
Please sort it out by fixing your mod if that's the issue, reporting if not.

As for CCO my understanding was that was broken. Unless you're referring to CCO Redone then the same advice applies, first the author should take care of things and if not, then users can report.

That really applies to completely broken mods also, LOOT can warn not to use the mod, only if the team know about it.

 

I always had to rearrange alot of my mods after using BOSS too. It didn't always make my game play smoother either. I have never heard, or seen, LOOT, where can I get it?

The Link is in my Signature
This one
"The King BOSS is Dead… …LOOT, Use it"
Sorry Thought I said that in OP
 

I think the one thing I liked about BOSS, was everything was organized nicely. With LOOT, everything is just a mess in my load order. Sure it might be the way it just sorts stuff, but there is no organization to it whatsoever! It is driving my OCD over the wall.
 
But...... I'm going to try it regardless, since BOSS is no longer being updated. Hopefully all that nonsense that it does will not destroy my game. When I used BOSS, everything was fine. Never had any load order issues. No idea why it had to change to LOOT now. What's that old saying? If it's not broke, don't fix it? That's how I feel with LOOT. BOSS worked just fine for doing exactly what it needed to do. Sort my load order. If something was unrecognized, I knew where to move and edited my userlist accordingly. But LOOT on the other hand, that mess of a load order it gives me, and then I have no idea how to customize my load order either (it says to drag a plugin to the box, yet I won't let me....). It is just so confusing.
 
But here goes nothing and hopefully it works....
 
EDIT: As well, how are you supposed to use this with SkyProc Patchers? Dual Sheath Redux wants to run BOSS, but I'm using LOOT instead. Ugh.....

 


You obviously have not read the OP that started this Thread, Please read it it was exactly the same uninformed it aint broke nonsense that I'm trying to correct then you go on to talk about what's broke the unrecognized list grows day by day.
your edit question is partly answered in my OP please read it, I refuse to repeat the same answers over and over.
The part about DSR asking for BOSS I will answer as that is new here anyway.
BOSS must be missing from the expected location to start with. Moving to another folder tempararily will do it if you insist on keeping it.
When you run,
DualSheathRedux.JAr
It will try to find it then say BOSS can't be found, it will ask you if you want to manually find BOSS (it may take a click or two to get this question).

Respond with yes, but you navigate to LOOT instead.
You can then run LOOT.

After you close LOOT, the DSR Patcher will continue as normal.

Now it will automatically start LOOT in future Patching Runs.

[Edit]

Same proceedure should work with SUM or any individual patcher that used BOSS if they have no setting for finding it.

Basically they Look to the Registry for the BOSS Location, so advanced users should know how to fix it in one go. Ordinary mortals can use the method here instead.

When using more than one patcher you should use SUM, so all you need to set is that anyway, you have to do this twice maximum.

 

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buncha snips

 

As for CCO my understanding was that was broken. Unless you're referring to CCO Redone then the same advice applies, first the author should take care of things and if not, then users can report.

 

 

Yeah, CCO redone.

 

I ended up having two issues:

 

The first was a couple of npc mods (dependent only upon skyrim and update) being loaded before mods that I wanted overridden. BOSS sorted them later than LOOT based on function, but that was easily fixed.

 

Second was a complex patching incorporating three mods and a patch and a patch between that patch and another mod. SoS, Guard Dialog Overhaul and CCO, (both of which inject into update, making dependencies not so clearcut) and a custom pruning of Sexy Armor Replaces to just the boots.  I don't want the latter patch dependent upon the former because, while I always use the second I'm still not 100% in the SoS camp.

 

So, for me, I needed three metadata edits for 240+ mods. That's definitely better the several dozen I had in BUM, mostly because BOSS's master list had no entry for most of those mods.

 

All I wish for is a better metadata editor. But, I understand beta and priorities, so I'll be patient.

 

Having said that, I don't think that mod authors have a duty to build their mods to suit LOOT's requirements. 

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If you are running about in Skyrim the LO is Right. It needs no changes at all. Read this to understand

 

Bullshit.  You are making 1 assumption with your samples.  You assume everyone is using loose files or unpacking their BSAs.  In that case, install order makes a huge difference.  If the mods being used are primarily BSAs, then the load order makes the difference.  In my case, almost all of my mods use BSAs, include Bound Armory.   When I ran into this issue, moving BA to the bottom of the load order (above the bashed patch of course) make the problem go away.  Changing the install of BA did nothing.

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@Uhuru N'Uru

 

 

 

I am still using good ol' v1.1.1... Haven't upgraded. I couldn't get the version above this one to work properly (believe it was 1.1.2 or something along those lines) Something about the internal installer and such. There are alot of MO users here because Sexout developer Ashal is using MO for Skyirm also AwefulArchdemon and other are religiously preaching the benefits of MO. Lots of new converts...


Yes well there was an issue with the NCC Tool for v1.1.2
NCC Downgrade
This update fixes that problem so you should update to v1.1.2 and then add this update which will fix the problem.
While the Beta versions currently v1.2+ or optional the Official Support is for the Current version only at this moment that is v1.1.2
I urge everyone to update to v1.1.2 it is the only supported version and all information given should apply to that version.
 

 

 

 

 

I have tried using that version and the updates several times. Didn't work, patch or no patch just wouldn't work. Did I do something wrong. Doubt it. Why. Someone sent me a patched version that they were using that worked as well. I finally gave up and reverted to my current version.

 

Unless I am wrong the basics of installation and configuration of exe etc are the same between the v1.1.1 and v1.1.2. Correct? Most support or guidance given by most individuals on here (unofficial thread) are basic general concepts that can be applied to the current as well as one or two versions old.

 

 

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…Snip

I ended up having two issues:

 

The first was a couple of NPC mods (dependent only upon skyrim and update) being loaded before mods that I wanted overridden. BOSS sorted them later than LOOT based on function, but that was easily fixed.

 

Second was a complex patching incorporating three mods and a patch and a patch between that patch and another mod. SoS, Guard Dialog Overhaul and CCOR, (both of which inject into update, making dependencies not so clearcut) and a custom pruning of Sexy Armor Replaces to just the boots. I don't want the latter patch dependent upon the former because, while I always use the second I'm still not 100% in the SoS camp.

 

So, for me, I needed three metadata edits for 240+ mods. That's definitely better the several dozen I had in BUM, mostly because BOSS's master list had no entry for most of those mods.

 

All I wish for is a better metadata editor. But, I understand beta and priorities, so I'll be patient.

 

Having said that, I don't think that mod authors have a duty to build their mods to suit LOOT's requirements.

1st Maybe but unlikely to be missed, remember we are purely talking about LO which has only one purpose to get the Game Loaded.

All other uses LO is applied to are irrelevant and using a Sledgehammer to crack a nut" My OP deals with these issues see where I've now added a "Big Red Angry Title" (Response to another quote in my Mega-Multi-Reply), Personal edits are fine but not required. If required for LO reasons they should be reported to LOOT Team.

2nd Wow, complex sounding, SoS could be Sounds of Skyrim, yeah sure it could.

The only SoS that matters resides here now, after bigots hounded it out of Nexus, going the Camp jokey root was a marketing mistake in my view they should have stood up Loud and Proud for their technically brilliant mod and poked the jokes and/or pointed the finger directly at the always stiff mods. Marketing their mod as the Realistic Schlong for Real Men mod. but I digress (I do that, I do that a lot. All Puns and Innuendo's are intentional).

Back to patches if the source mods are sorted correctly, with all masters designated, the patch should sort fine as well.

If a source already has an LOOT MasterList entry, or needs one, the patch would need one, personal patches need a user entry public need a MasterList Edit.

User made patches it obviously can have issues with, but if a simple merge patch of already sorted mods it should still work fine.

Always Use but still not 100% in the SoS camp.

Sorry the meaning of this eludes me.

Always Use = 100% in the SoS camp

Not wanting Mods as Masters unless an absolute needed requirement is standard good practice whatever mods are involved.

The two are completely separate issues, if you meant something else I don't see it.

All I wish for is a better metadata editor. But, I understand beta and priorities, so I'll be patient

LOOT v0.5.0 is Not a Beta there were 9 Alpha's and 16 Beta's before it.

One feature you may have missed because you go straight to MetaData Window.

Sort the Mods but instead of just applying the sort in the Calculated LO window click in the Plugin Window this brings up the more basic and less overwhelming user editing Window, only Load After Edits are available here (I think from memory) which is the only method users should generally use, the priority numbers are really designed purely for the MasterList and are an absolute positioning system, the After system is relative, you must have the named mod in your LO, seems obvious to me but as the saying goes "Stupid is what Stupid does" and we are all "is Stupid" sometimes.

You seem reasonably intelligent, appear to know your CK and TES5Edit, LOOT is well Documented, you know what's to do.

For those thinking "Duh, Wot da fuck dat mean, wot as I'se ta do", it's pretty pointless telling you, but I will RTFM

If you are now thinking, "Dat sez nuttin at all", then it's totally pointless telling you, but I will

 

 

 

Read Da Fuckin Book

 

 

 

 

I know the letters don't match but if they needed to view the spoiler, they need it translating as well (Font I used to make them feel at home)

 

 

I defined the Acronym Also. That's a damn good feature more should learn to use (Special BBCode 3rd Icon in and select Acronym)

 

Duty is not to suit LOOT but the common standards, those standards are what LOOT applies.

Mods Should List the Required Master Files in the File Header, that has always been the case and is what LOOT was designed to deal with, the simplest way to get a Active Mod sorted correctly is to apply the standard then LOOT will sort it automatically.

There may be valid (Programming) reasons why this can't be done, I'm no expert, Mods are also abandoned/No Longer Supported by the Author in these cases a MasterList Entry is the correct procedure to deal with the mod (also if authors won't apply the standard for invalid (Not Proramming) reasons.

The only way a mod can be added to the MasterList is if someone (anyone) reports it giving accurate repeatable evidence proving LOOT isn't sorting it correctly, basically any user edits not for personal reasons, (eg. Neater Looking Order as BOSS did it).

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…Snip

 

1st Maybe but unlikely to be missed, remember we are purely talking about LO which has only one purpose to get the Game Loaded.

All other uses LO is applied to are irrelevant and using a Sledgehammer to crack a nut" My OP deals with these issues see where I've now added a "Big Red Angry Title" (Response to another quote in my Mega-Multi-Reply), Personal edits are fine but not required. If required for LO reasons they should be reported to LOOT Team.

 

2nd Wow, complex sounding, SoS could be Sounds of Skyrim, yeah sure it could.

The only SoS that matters resides here now, after bigots hounded it out of Nexus, going the Camp jokey root was a marketing mistake in my view they should have stood up Loud and Proud for their technically brilliant mod and poked the jokes and/or pointed the finger directly at the always stiff mods. Marketing their mod as the Realistic Schlong for Real Men mod. but I digress (I do that, I do that a lot. All Puns and Innuendo's are intentional).

Back to patches if the source mods are sorted correctly, with all masters designated, the patch should sort fine as well.

If a source already has an LOOT MasterList entry, or needs one, the patch would need one, personal patches need a user entry public need a MasterList Edit.

User made patches it obviously can have issues with, but if a simple merge patch of already sorted mods it should still work fine.

Always Use but still not 100% in the SoS camp.

Sorry the meaning of this eludes me.

Always Use = 100% in the SoS camp

Not wanting Mods as Masters unless an absolute needed requirement is standard good practice whatever mods are involved.

The two are completely separate issues, if you meant something else I don't see it.

 

You left out the important clause in the first sentence and mashed it up with the beginning of the first :) I 'always use the second' (word 'patch implied). I don't want to have it depend upon the patch incorporating SoS, which is required to ensure that LOOT sorts the second patch after the first, since I've dropped and added SoS (and the associated patch) a couple of times.

 

 

All I wish for is a better metadata editor. But, I understand beta and priorities, so I'll be patient

LOOT v0.5.0 is Not a Beta there were 9 Alpha's

One feature you may have missed because you go straight to MetaData Window.

Sort the Mods but instead of just applying the sort in the Calculated LO window click in the Plugin Window this brings up the more basic and less overwhelming user editing Window, only Load After Edits are available here (I think from memory) which is the only method users should generally use, the priority numbers are really designed purely for the MasterList and are an absolute positioning system, the After system is relative, you must have the named mod in your LO, seems obvious to me but as the saying goes "Stupid is what Stupid does" and we are all "is Stupid" sometimes.

You seem reasonably intelligent, appear to know your CK and TES5Edit, LOOT is well Documented, you know what's to do.

For those thinking "Duh, Wot da fuck dat mean, wot as I'se ta do", it's pretty pointless telling you, but I will RTFM

If you are now thinking, "Dat sez nuttin at all", then it's totally pointless telling you, but I will

 

 

Read Da Fuckin Book

I know the letters don't match but if they needed to view the spoiler, they need it translating as well (Font I used to make them feel at home)

I defined the Acronym Also. That's a damn good feature more should learn to use (Special BBCode 3rd Icon in and select Acronym)

 

 

Duty is not to suit LOOT but the common standards, those standards are what LOOT applies.

Mods Should List the Required Master Files in the File Header, that has always been the case and is what LOOT was designed to deal with, the simplest way to get a Active Mod sorted correctly is to apply the standard then LOOT will sort it automatically.

There may be valid (Programming) reasons why this can't be done, I'm no expert, Mods are also abandoned/No Longer Supported by the Author in these cases a MasterList Entry is the correct procedure to deal with the mod (also if authors won't apply the standard for invalid (Not Proramming) reasons.

The only way a mod can be added to the MasterList is if someone (anyone) reports it giving accurate repeatable evidence proving LOOT isn't sorting it correctly, basically any user edits not for personal reasons, (eg. Neater Looking Order as BOSS did it).

 

 

My biggest gripe about LOOT? It doesn't always maintain the same general sort order from one run to the next. Example. I sorted everything with LOOT, game loaded fine, and I then reordered my mods in MO's left pane to account for any possible script overrides. Later, I added another mod, which then caused LOOT to have a somewhat different load order, necessitating another lengthy resort on the left.

 

With tes5edit and BUM, I'd have just inspected the esp and created a rule that fit within my load order, added a patch if need be, then sorted it's override order to make sure any scripts were properly overwritten. Done. If I remove that mod from a game and later add it back to another run through I KNOW where it'll be.

 

As you said at the top, LOOT will ensure that the esp's are sorted sufficiently well enough for the game to start. But, since it only considers esp/esm masters and (apparently) nothing else,  I'll use LOOT for the curated master list and I'll use BUM for it's positive control over mod load orders.

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Thats because it basically goes through your existing Load Order Mod by Mod if 2 mods have Skyrim.ESM and Update.ESM as there Required Master Files then which Order you put them in is completely irrelevant, if 200 have those requirements mods again the order between the Mods if irrelevant, so LOOT ignores it because it makes absolutely no difference.
BUM/BOSS were exactly the same, they used mod groups which basically = Required Master Files. Within each group the Mod Order was irrelevant, but because of how BOSS MasterList worked needing an entry for each Mod some order had to be chosen. they chose A to Z because it made editing the MasterList easier, no other reason.
Think about it if it made any difference at all, what are the odds A to Z would be right in any group, never mind all of them.

You are still thinking inaccurately, LO being purely about getting the game to Load is nothing to do with LOOT or BOSS or BUM, or anything but the Game, it always has been that way, it always will be that way, anything that happens when the game is running is absolutely nothing to do with Load Order, it never has been, I can't give a simpler example than in my OP of why many post otherwise, MO now warns when Scripted Mods don't match the Load Order, this is the cause of most of these errors, (Not all).
Resorts reordering and the MO script warnings, this is a recently new feature so older versions are worse but generally thats not really true,
You at least know what MO is warning about, which is more than most do. The reason it does this is the games behaviour described above.

So whats really going on is basic fact that programs are stupid and need to follow precise instructions, to make sure they work correctly, both MO and LOOT start at Top of the List Assess that mod, then move on to Number 2, then 3 etc.
You may notice with MO often the same mods start the list (with me this is Unofficial Patches) maybe you also, now I know they are correct but these warnings are always a move before or after and when U**P is one other is the new mod.
There can be a Lot of Moves, but I know the New mod and by Focusing on just it's position usually around the point that afters flip to befores. Getting the new mod in it's spot will fix most if not all the given edits, if some remain it's because the new mods scripts change other script priorities as well
This behaviour in LOOT should settle Down into a stable order after a few sorts, you did call LOOT a Beta in a previous Post what you describe was a beta error at one point.
LOOT v0.5.0 is the Latest version the one before was LOOT v0.5.0 Beta 16 it was last Beta.
MO v1.2.1 Beta is Latest but MO v1.1.2 is Stable Release.
Which versions are you using for Both.

Generally it may take a sort or three but LOOT should give the same sort with the same mods for you.
Generally it may take a sort or three but LOOT should give the same sort with the same mods for me.
Though we have the same mods our sorts may differ, because we had different starting orders.
Adding a single Mod to a Stable Sorted Order should just position that mod.
If we both Load the game successfully, we both have a correct LO, there are an infinate number of correct Load Orders and as many incorrect ones.

MOv1.2.1 Beta now automatically treats BSA's as Loose Files but doesn't unpack them, BSA extraction is not recommended now at all. SSD friendly behaviour.

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Two questions:

1) Will there be a feature (or already a feature that I just missed) that will auto update the actual LOOT program. That is if you know.

2) With this statement...

 

MOv1.2.1 Beta now automatically treats BSA's as Loose Files but doesn't unpack them, BSA extraction is not recommended now at all. SSD friendly behaviour.

I like the automatically treading BSA's as loose files however isn't it needed to extract them to get the full effect? Or is MO able to give the full flexibility of file handling of a BSA without extracting. I personally don't care about being SSD friendly behavior if it means full flexibility of file control.

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Uhuru don't get me wrong, I understand why LOOT is using the esp master data to sort the esps and why, not least of which is the simple impossibility of hand maintaining a master list that's over 30k entries long. For the majority of use cases that is perfectly sufficient. Unfortunately many mods edit the same records independently. We both know that those edits can be radically different. The only way to be sure I get the behavior I want is to write a rule that ensures which edit loads last. If there is more than one mod changing that record, with loot I may well have to write a series of rules to order them all because I can't be sure that loot won't shift them around due to an evolving algorithm. With boss I simply put the one I want last in a lower priority group, such as load late. I know where it will sort every time and it is not going to change.

 

Now, I'm not your typicaI user. I began programming over 30 years ago, and even got paid for a fair chunk of it. A general user that needs to sort mods is going to get a full throttle endorsement of LOOT from me. But for the technically minded modder tes5edit and hand sorting (enhanced by the automation that bum and the core boss category structure allows) is probably going to continue to be the method of choice. I think an apt comparison would be recommending Corel draw to my mom and photoshop to a photographer.

 

Edit to spell your nick right. Auto correct, that'll be my excuse

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If you are running about in Skyrim the LO is Right. It needs no changes at all. Read this to understand

Bullshit. You are making 1 assumption with your samples. You assume everyone is using loose files or unpacking their BSA's. In that case, install order makes a huge difference. If the mods being used are primarily BSA's, then the load order makes the difference. In my case, almost all of my mods use BSA's, include Bound Armory. When I ran into this issue, moving BA to the bottom of the load order (above the bashed patch of course) make the problem go away. Changing the install of BA did nothing.

 

No, not Bullshit, but you do have a valid point as to BSA's. These are partly what the Masterlist Changes are about though, these are the sort of mods that need a MasterList Entry. The usual rules dont cover them, they are rare, but there's no way they can be entered in the MasterList without users or the Mod Author reporting them.

Mod interactions are complex meld, no one rule is obeyed by all mods, my statements are generalisations that covers 99% of mods I've said numerous times exceptions need special treatment, which is adding to the MasterList.

 

About your Issue Specifically, you say

moving BA to the bottom of the load order (above the bashed patch of course) make the problem go away

This will generally work for a single mod, for the usual last mod wins conflicts reasons and only one mod can be "Last" (or as here last one before Bashed Patch).

Now most Likely this is a script issue, usually are the cause of these things, but it does not actually matter as the mods got a BSA we are dealing with the entire package.

Now we can be pretty certain this isn't an absolute position error, that would almost certainly have been picked up by now, as it's not a new mod.

So we work on the assumption it's a mod conflict, so we need to find the other mod, Lets narrow the suspects first.

First do a normal sort with LOOT and confirm the issue is present (Don't Assume)

Now we have a starting point:

  • Confirmed Issue Present = TM is After CM
    • Manually place CM half between established end points (This becomes next times end point)
      • Confirmed Issue Present = TM is After CM Go to 1 and Repeat
      • Confirmed Issue Absent = TM

is Before CM Go to 2 and Repeat

  • Confirmed Issue Absent = TM
  • is Before CM
    • Manually place CM
    half between established end points (This becomes next times end point)

    • Confirmed Issue Present = TM is After CM Go to 1 and Repeat
    • Confirmed Issue Absent = TM
    is Before CM Go to 2 and Repeat
  • When only one Mod is between CM from both sides that's the TM
  • Now you know both Mods a User entry can be made for BA to always Load After the Target Mod.

    With a single issue as you describe this of course gives you no real benefit, the payback is communal, before you had nothing to report to LOOT Team.

    All you could say is BA coflicts with a mod in my LO hardly useful and nothing to actually Test and confirm.

    Now though you have a Valid and Confirmable Issue to Report.

    LOOT can quickly Open Multiple MO Test Builds add the pair of Mods and Confirm your Findings. Then immediatly change the MasterList and everybody gets the fix applied

    The one Assumption I am making, is that the few exceptions have or need a Masterlist Entry, and LOOT is being used to start with, which is why the example clearly follows the LOOT sorting guide, but as with any general rule it's a guideline, in a complex system exceptions will always exist, while I might not repeat every single point in every single post, that multi-post was not a good idea, I lost track of exactly where I said what.

     

    Back to my Bullshit

    You also are right that my tendancy is to neglect the effect of BSA's completely, this is true, but not because I extract them, I don't extract a single one.

    LOOT takes them into account, with MasterList entries if required, so that's covers All BSA's, theoretically. If any are still slipping through, they need reporting to change that, anybody can report them.

     

    This is a good point to mention that way MO deals with BSA's eliminates this issue by treating them as loose files while keeping them as BSA's. This Gives the user the full control of coflicts that comes with Loose Files while still retaining the BSA format and File Size. Especially important if using a SSD, this was optional but with the addition of the built in LOOT CLI it is now default and is applied automatically

    I have said this in other posts here, but for clarity and propaganda purposes, I'll go over it again.

    Note: MP is MO's Drag and Drop alternative to IO, to cover all managers I call this MP/IO

    To match with LOOT's methods, MO now warns if the Mod Priority is different to the LO, for Mods with Scripts only. This stops this feature undoing LOOT's work, while still giving User full control over Conflict management

     

    Now you've raised this point. I must again state, I'm not perfect.

    While I didn't make the assumptions you thought I made, I did not explain the matter as well as I should have, I can only correct the error.

    I should have made this clearer in the OP, I will edit it to make it so.

    Thank you for your input, it still had great value in focusing my thoughts and enabled clearer guidance, that is more important than my ego being Shit-Stabbed (Bull flavoured or not).

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Two questions:

1) Will there be a feature (or already a feature that I just missed) that will auto update the actual LOOT program. That is if you know.

2) With this statement...

 

MOv1.2.1 Beta now automatically treats BSA's as Loose Files but doesn't unpack them, BSA extraction is not recommended now at all. SSD friendly behaviour.

I like the automatically treading BSA's as loose files however isn't it needed to extract them to get the full effect? Or is MO able to give the full flexibility of file handling of a BSA without extracting. I personally don't care about being SSD friendly behavior if it means full flexibility of file control.

No that was old behaviour so you are partly correct.

 

Now The BSA is Left entirley Intact and yet its contents are listed in the conflicts Tab of Mod Organizer's Mod Information Window, you can change things here and MO will Load your changes as the entire BSA as if Loose to the Virtual Data Drive, on the fly as needed. Now default behaviour for MO v1.2.1

 

Extracting BSA's is no Longer recommended at all, what's the point this way you get Loose Files advantage and BSA size on SSD advantage.

Pure win-win no brainer, was optional before for test period, bug fixing, now Tannin must think it's stable so become default no choice for v1.2.1+

 

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I noticed that there is an "Edit Metadata" .. Forgive me if it has been covered before. With this if there is a case where some mods are desirable to be loaded in a specific order you can change that behavior in LOOT like the older program (BUM I believe was the name) ?

 

Example (Quote from here)

 

*Note: It says on the Nexus site, that this mod isn't compatible with the "Revamped Exterior Fog" mod, which was installed earlier. That is not true. As long as "Climates of Tamriel - Weather Patch" is below "Revamped Exterior Fog" in the load-order, everything works perfectly. The only reason for installing "Revamped Exterior Fog" as well, is because of a few areas that "Climates of Tamriel - Weather Patch" doesn't cover. In those few areas, "Revamped Exterior Fog" just removes the fog.

So if LOOT warned me of this conflict which actually could be an issue however I decide to use it as this author states I can change the metadata and make "Revamped Exterior Fog" load before "Climates of Tamriel - Weather Patch". 

 

Correct?

 

Yes I know I can report it. I am not familiar with Skyrim and these mods to feel comfortable my information is accurate. I am running on someone elses advise which might be correct, wrong or perhaps even outdated, as the author might have made changes to his/her mod that makes this wrong.

 

 

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Uhuru don't get me wrong, I understand why LOOT is using the esp master data to sort the esps and why, not least of which is the simple impossibility of hand maintaining a master list that's over 30k entries long. For the majority of use cases that is perfectly sufficient. Unfortunately many mods edit the same records independently. We both know that those edits can be radically different. The only way to be sure I get the behavior I want is to write a rule that ensures which edit loads last. If there is more than one mod changing that record, with loot I may well have to write a series of rules to order them all because I can't be sure that loot won't shift them around due to an evolving algorithm. With boss I simply put the one I want last in a lower priority group, such as load late. I know where it will sort every time and it is not going to change.

 

Now, I'm not your typicaI user. I began programming over 30 years ago, and even got paid for a fair chunk of it. A general user that needs to sort mods is going to get a full throttle endorsement of LOOT from me. But for the technically minded modder tes5edit and hand sorting (enhanced by the automation that bum and the core boss category structure allows) is probably going to continue to be the method of choice. I think an apt comparison would be recommending Corel draw to my mom and photoshop to a photographer.

 

Edit to spell your nick right. Auto correct, that'll be my excuse

LOOT has full capability for even more detailed Management of sort you want BOSS MasterList sort of grew with Skyrim Bolting on New functions as it went.

LOOT Masterlist/ MetaData is logical and planned, fully documented and should be exactly what you want.

You can use the Priority Keyword to Set an Absolute position

  • ±2000,000 with unprioritized Plugins (99.9%) beeing 0 by default
    • Negative means nearer Skyrim.ESM set first by definition+
    • Positve means Last Plugins
  • There are currently 92 Priority Plugins

Alternate Method Uses After Keyword this is a Relative setting as the variable is another plugins Name

  • This means simply what it says Load this Plugin After That Named Plugin
    • These will mainly refer to Plugins with associated BSA files (Containing Scripts usually)
  • There are currently 203 After Plugins

They are not Exclusive and a plugin can have both at once

 

These Keywords are the only ones relevant to LO more are available for the warnings you may get Like Dirty Edits, Bash Tags CRC Checksum and others.

Your argument is invalid LOOT is capable of fully providing your Power user needs than BOSS ever was, it is more like BOSS + Bum than it is BOSS Alone.

From BUM's Nexus Forum and to put it in context LOOT (Load Order Optimisation Tool) v0·5·0 was Released on 31st March 2014

In response to post #13534335.

 

The BOSS Userlist Manager is not compatible with LOOT and is not required.

 

Many thanks for using and supporting the BOSS Userlist Manager.

 

Pending inspiration or suggestions, I have no plans for further developments or releasing any more updates (except to support any BOSS changes).

and

In response to post #13534335. #13534720, #13534865 are all replies on the same post.

 

Many thanks for your kind words.

 

Worth mentioning that LOOT programmatically determines the load order based on mod dependencies. This automation means that the order will not be the same as BOSS, but it will still be an appropriate load order.

 

LOOT also allows adjustments and Bash Tags to be specified, so there will still be a Masterlist containing these refinements and tag data. In addition, you will still be able to refine this order to your personal tastes by using the LOOT interface to specify your own information.

 

Current recommendations are to use BOSS for a game that is already in progress and to try LOOT for a new game.

 

Hope this helps.

 

No Further comment on LOOT by him so he doesn't appear to think you need his tool for LOOT at All

These Are Links to Docs

LOOT sorts are very Stable why do many think its all over the place because its simlpy not true.

Repeated LOOT sorts on my mods do not change.

I've just run 4 in a row and MO can backup the list, I havn't messed with settings and just done sort then backup 4 times MO saves the LO in Plugins.Txt and Full ESP list active and inactive as LoadOrder.Txt (Yes I know but that's how it is) All files are identical according to Notpad++ Compare Plugin.

Rock Solid will not change, however many times I sort.

 

with loot I may well have to write a series of rules to order them all because I can't be sure that loot won't shift them around due to an evolving algorithm.

Where do you get this idea from, the sorting is pretty well as basic as can be all eventualities are already catered for, there is no evolving to be done.

That all occurred to BOSS as each New Game Version came out. The Year BOSSv3 was in developement, I could be wrong but My understanding was the released version is essentially the Beta 16 version and only needed version changes for the File Details Tab etc. that was released 14th March so it's not had need for a single update, Hotfix etc. they are working on an update, to the UI. so not exactly vital.

 

The Added Flag Plugins is the only LO info likely to change and I think that went from 203 to 204 recently.

The BOSS /LOOT Team are some of the most reliable Modders Out there

 

They Made BOSS, They Made LOOT in all ways to be Superior to BOSS even BUM Author sees No Reason to Make his Tool work with LOOT

 

Bottom Line is LOOT is Fundamentally different and if you choose to stick with the Old, thats your choice and right, but don't try to fool yourself into thinking there is anything wrong with LOOT, that somehow validates your choice, there isn't and it doesn't.

 

Even more important if it's your choice it's right for you and that is all the validation you should want or need.

My Last word is give LOOT an honest and fair trial. Then choose what's right for you for the right reasons.

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I noticed that there is an "Edit Metadata" .. Forgive me if it has been covered before. With this if there is a case where some mods are desirable to be loaded in a specific order you can change that behavior in LOOT like the older program (BUM I believe was the name) ?

 

Example (Quote from here)

*Note: It says on the Nexus site, that this mod isn't compatible with the "Revamped Exterior Fog" mod, which was installed earlier. That is not true. As long as "Climates of Tamriel - Weather Patch" is below "Revamped Exterior Fog" in the load-order, everything works perfectly. The only reason for installing "Revamped Exterior Fog" as well, is because of a few areas that "Climates of Tamriel - Weather Patch" doesn't cover. In those few areas, "Revamped Exterior Fog" just removes the fog.

So if LOOT warned me of this conflict which actually could be an issue however I decide to use it as this author states I can change the metadata and make "Revamped Exterior Fog" load before "Climates of Tamriel - Weather Patch".

 

Correct?

 

Yes I know I can report it. I am not familiar with Skyrim and these mods to feel comfortable my information is accurate. I am running on someone elses advise which might be correct, wrong or perhaps even outdated, as the author might have made changes to his/her mod that makes this wrong.

 

You are correct and as said LOOT already warns of the issue and gives the only the will always work answer, the optional method you are using requires a MasterList Entry for LO and the warning, the final result is unchanged and more edits are needed. The fewest MasterList Edits option will always be chosen when outcome is the same.

They're are a few weather mods this rule applies to I think.

 

The optional

Edit Metadata

button is really for the more advanced users, allowing complete access to the MasterList's Metadata

 

Normal users should press the

Sort Plugins

button as normal but when you get the

LOOT: Calculated Load Order

window instead of pressing the

Apply

button to confirm the sort you click in the

Plugin

panel, anywhere will do but if you find the plugin you want first, you are ready to edit, either way produces an expanded window, this has only the LO editing features, so less too intimidate you and focuses you on what you actually need for user editing of the LO.

Note:

The OP explains these two in greater detail, this is focused on using them

Priority:

Is for absolute positioning of Mods (Generally, you won't need this one at all, see OP for details)

Load After:

Is for err…umm…aha! maybe it just means what it says.

 

Note:

There is a known bug hear, the

Remove Plugin

button is not working so be sure to drag the correct plugin to the Load After Panel.

If you make a mistake you must press the

Cancel

Button which aborts the sort, this then continues as normal by showing the

LOOT: Report Viewer

window, Like This

General Messages

  • Note: There have been no changes in the Details tab since LOOT was last run for this game.

  • Note: Latest LOOT thread.

  • Note: Your SKSE is up-to-date.

  • Note: It appears you have Fores New Idles in Skyrim installed. Remember to run GenerateFNISforUsers.exe every time you have installed or de-installed FNIS, or a FNIS based mod.

  • Warning: The load order displayed in the Details tab was not applied as sorting was canceled.

the Highlighted warning confirming the sort was cancelled. You just Press

Sort Plugins

button again, a minor annoyance, but the next planned update v0.6.0 totally replaces all these separate windows with a single one, so fixing this is not a priority as nothing vital is affected.

 

Pick your required User Edit choices and you're good to go, press the

Apply

button to confirm the sort, this then continues as normal by showing the

LOOT: Report Viewer

window. Check all's well and good, job done user edits applied now to all future sorts.

Even if you uninstall the Plugin that the edited one is supposed to be placed after (Revamped Exterior Fog removed in the above case) the edit can be left in place, it is only applied if the after plugin exists, very useful indeed. Applied when needed, ignored when not.

 

Do report edits that are for fixing things, not just your preference, don't worry about being wrong if you are wrong they will check, then if it's accurate everybody gets the fix, not just you, most outstanding issues are when 2 mods conflict, so both are needed before the issue shows up.

Simply put better to report and it be wrong than not report and it be right. they don't take anybodies word for it, always it will be verified first.

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I'm using NMM, any issues with LOOT and it?

Not specifically, that I know of, There are no issues I know of with any manager, each manager has unique methods, I only know MO methods and becase it uses a virtual Data Folder, not the real one, it's methods are unique and unfamiliar to users of the other managers, these are not issues though just different methods.

 

The issues with using NMM though now that's another matter, My opinion is without the Nexus Linkage it would be at best 4th choice by popularity/ endorsements on Merit alone, in fact without that link it would likely be a better program, it is a port of TimeSlip's ObMM I posted this earlier but it was sploilered and in the mega answer thread (a small part of the Gopher's Flaws topic.

So you may have missed it (I've edited this a bit also).

  • NMM is a bad Manager (My Opinion) with game breaking issues (failing to uninstall mods correctly is usual cause, though how often it's the user's fault is always an unkown factor, when it's raised as often as this issue is there will be an underlying cause).
  • The obsession with adding many games to it makes each games support less.
  • My main issue with it is that they took Timeslip's very good Mod Manager (ObMM, FoMM and FoMM NV) that got better with each version
    • Chose Oblivion the oldest to port which stripped most of the features out.
    • Worse as it's the oldest a lot of the Oblivion features don't work in Skyrim at all.
    • They never got it to be at least "as good as" the Oblivion one, never mind the Fallout Versions.
  • Above all that it was not named SkMM but NMM which fools new users into thinking it's must be the best. (I detest the linking the most)
    • Multi-game came later when they panicked at the arrival of SW and if it worked for the other Bethesda games so what (ObMM, FoMM and FoMM NV) were all much better than it never mind other managers. It was for Skyrim first and foremost. Linking it to Nexus Name gives it Premier status and implies its the Best choice, without that link where would it be in the Mod Lists at least 3rd choice and if FoMM NV was Skyrim Enabled 4th.

Using any manager can screw your game up (Data Folder) up of course, it's much more likely to happen with NMM than WB which is a far superior manager.

Now you may assume as my bias towards MO is obvious and blatantly in your face (No missing that Sig, unless you turn them all off, turn them on at once), I'm going to say MO never messes the Data folder up, but you wont believe me, I'm biased.

Of course it is true MO never does mess the Data Folder up, but simply because it never uses it at all.

So the real question is Does it Mess up the Virtual Data Folder it uses instead, honestly I havn't a clue but it doesn't matter, being virtual its remade every time the game is started, so again its irrelevant.

 

What is relevant.

If and when it happens (Uncommon) in NMM you must reinstall everything from Scratch.

If and when it happens (Very Rare) in WB you must reinstall everything from Scratch.

If and when it happens (Meaningless) in MO you Just Restart the Game.

 

In the end though any manager is much better than none and SW is not a manager at all, it is just a downloader, you must use the Game Launcher with it for any sort of management, that is the worst sort of management though not any sort of recommended management..

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I have a question r/t LOOT.. Yes.. another one.

 

Add: Deflst

 

It is under DeadMoney.esm. It is there after I cleaned the mod as instructed. The others don't have this notation. Want to be sure that I am not missing something that needs to be done.

Thanks.

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Unfortunately many mods edit the same records independently. We both know that those edits can be radically different. The only way to be sure I get the behavior I want is to write a rule that ensures which edit loads last. If there is more than one mod changing that record, with loot I may well have to write a series of rules to order them all because I can't be sure that loot won't shift them around due to an evolving algorithm. With boss I simply put the one I want last in a lower priority group, such as load late. I know where it will sort every time and it is not going to change.

I've been testing this particular case:

- "Unknown mod A" edits records 1 and 2

- "Unknown mod B" edits records 2 and 3

In this case LOOT can't know if I prefer the edit from mod A or mod B.

It orders the mods alphabetically, even if I ordered them previously with a mod manager :(

I don't know if there is a way to force LOOT to not change the load order of conflicting and unknown mods. I'd say that BOSS didn't change the order of the unknown mods, besides moving them to the bottom of the list.

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Unfortunately many mods edit the same records independently. We both know that those edits can be radically different. The only way to be sure I get the behavior I want is to write a rule that ensures which edit loads last. If there is more than one mod changing that record, with loot I may well have to write a series of rules to order them all because I can't be sure that loot won't shift them around due to an evolving algorithm. With boss I simply put the one I want last in a lower priority group, such as load late. I know where it will sort every time and it is not going to change.

I've been testing this particular case:

- "Unknown mod A" edits records 1 and 2

- "Unknown mod B" edits records 2 and 3

In this case LOOT can't know if I prefer the edit from mod A or mod B.

It orders the mods alphabetically, even if I ordered them previously with a mod manager :(

I don't know if there is a way to force LOOT to not change the load order of conflicting and unknown mods. I'd say that BOSS didn't change the order of the unknown mods, besides moving them to the bottom of the list.

 

 

I've been looking over LOOT's documentation, and you can set up conditions. Haven't tested it much yet (partly because I'd have a LOT of these and prefer to play right now)  but  assuming B is the preferred one setting a metadata rule (working from memory here, on a mac)

 

rule for mod B: after Unknown Mod A , condition: active ("Unknown Mod A")  

 

would do the trick. http://loot.github.io/docs/0.5.0/LOOT%20Metadata%20Syntax.html#cond-function . However, I've noticed that when you choose 'after' there's no telling just how far down the list 'after' will be. Hence my comment about multiple rules.

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Been using LOOT since I saw Gophers youtube video about it. It does an awesome job. I was so fucking tired of setting up my own esp / esm load order rules. LOOT until this day (more than 100 esps in Skyrim on my install, so kind of mid-heavily modded) has not bothered me with a single unrecognized mod and the game runs just fine. Even my own mods get sorted correctly thanks to the tool that checks what the mods do and where conflicts occur. This is just great.

 

I know what I'm writing here sounds like some TV commercial, and I apologize for that, but I'm totally enthusiastic. BOSS worked well for me within its technical limits, but LOOT saves me time and annoyances. I even think of installing unearthing Oblivion again just to see how LOOT handles the vast amount of minor and major patches, must-have mods and overhauls with their specific compatibility patches and whatnot. That will be quite thrilling. HA!

 

Anyway, thanks to the authors for that tool. I can only say that it is a huge step forward, together with the latest save game script removal tools and the memory patch in the latest SKSE. Skyrim today is in the state it should have been on the day of its release in the end of 2011 - no thanks to Bethesda, but to the modders who make it all happen.

 

So, you may call me a fanboy now.

 

EDIT: Perhaps I should mention that I'm using Wrye Bash and thanks to that many conflicts can be seen in the install tab and be therefore avoided before they actually occur in the game. I do not use BSAs except for the Unoffiicial Patches because I want to know in advance if any files will conflict. A classic example is "Werewolf Mastery" (comes in a BSA) the werewolf script of which conflicts with the Race Compatibility scripts by TMPhoenix which must be used when you play a custom race. Werewolf mastery must be loaded after that. Just as an example for people who ask themselves why they would want to know which files are inside their BSAs.

 

But back to topic: LOOT of course cannot do the job of giving you a stable game all on its own. The combination of

 

- Wrye Bash, Mod Organizer or any mod manager that shows you conflicting files before you even install the mods - avoid crap like NMM because it's doing everything behind a GUI that leaves you with no clue as to which files exactly are conflicting.

 

- The SKSE 1.7 with the memory patch (http://skse.silverlock.org/)

Little extra: To clean unregistered update events automatically at every game start, add this to \Data\SKSE\skse.ini:

 

[General]
ClearInvalidRegistrations=1

 

If you don't have an skse.ini, create a new text file and name it "skse.ini".

 

The ClearInvalidRegistrations-command is 100 % safe for work. It does not work miracles and functions only in the long run (so having that in the skse.ini is quite reasonable), but is one little step further towards a stable Skyrim gameplay.

 

- The Unofficial Patch series just enter "unofficial patch" in the Nexus search field

 

- LOOT (http://loot.github.io/)

 

- Tes5Edit (http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/25859/?) and using it to clean your ESM / ESP files - tutorials are on the site there

 

- The script scalpel (http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/53045/?) - use it with brain 1.0 activated

 

- The SAFELY working save game script cleaner (http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/52363/?) use it with brain 1.0 activated as well.

There have been several other programs of that kind in the past that were more or less risky, this one is very reliable as long as you do the basic cleaning only and leave all other functions of this tool alone. Read the mod description page!

 

- SMCO (http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/13529/?) to optimize textures of mods (you wouldn't believe how many unnecessarily bloated textures are hidden in BSAs or come in loose files which are not Hi Res or so, they are just in the wrong compression formats, completely uncompressed or with unnecessessary alpha cannels and whatnot).

Use this

http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/247/?

to unpack BSAs. I haven't used it for BSA optimization because I avoid BSAs wherever I can, therefore I cannot say if that function can be recommended.

 

makes a stable game. Finally.

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This one got me until I realised this is FalloutNV DLC not Skyrim Mod

I have a question r/t LOOT.. Yes.. another one.

Add: Deflst

It is under DeadMoney.esm. It is there after I cleaned the mod as instructed. The others don't have this notation. Want to be sure that I am not missing something that needs to be done.
Thanks.

So I checked FalloutNV MasterList in Notepad++ (Great Text Editor you all should use it inhstead of Windows rubbish one)
As I suspected it has Tag: keyword so is simply a Bashed Patch Tag like Delev and Relev in Skyrim.

Wrye Bash in general and Bashed Patch specifically are much better for other games.
Skyrim Developement stalled as Merging with Oblivion became the priority back when SW, arrived.
Both Wrye Bash Team and NMM Team panicked and made rash Knee Jerk reactions to it's appearance.
Skyrim Developement basically ceased for both, as the new directions took over, for both it was a very bad mistake, they've never recovered.
Wrye Bash Team only resumed work on the Skyrim Bashed Patch this year, it is Wrye Bash's main unique feature and should always have been their first priority.

So yes, just a Bashed Tag is all, but please mention if you are talking about another game, this is the Skyrim Forum, so some hint helps get your answer.
 

 

Unfortunately many mods edit the same records independently. We both know that those edits can be radically different. The only way to be sure I get the behavior I want is to write a rule that ensures which edit loads last. If there is more than one mod changing that record, with loot I may well have to write a series of rules to order them all because I can't be sure that loot won't shift them around due to an evolving algorithm. With boss I simply put the one I want last in a lower priority group, such as load late. I know where it will sort every time and it is not going to change.

I've been testing this particular case:
- "Unknown mod A" edits records 1 and 2
- "Unknown mod B" edits records 2 and 3
In this case LOOT can't know if I prefer the edit from mod A or mod B.
It orders the mods alphabetically, even if I ordered them previously with a mod manager
I don't know if there is a way to force LOOT to not change the load order of conflicting and unknown mods. I'd say that BOSS didn't change the order of the unknown mods, besides moving them to the bottom of the list.N

 

Not sure what you expect LOOT to do here, this isn't actually a LO issue it's user preference, different users have different preferences, user edits will manage this sort of thing perfectly, or ideally a compatibility patch giving everybody the benefit.

You can force the position of any Mod for any reason using the Priority and After Keywords, I mentioned in this Post
The Easiest Method for General User Edits

LOOT Sorts the order of Plugins automatically by one thing alone Required Master Files

Not Mods, think you mean this but stating it for general readers.

It's an easy mistake, I often make, try to catch in edits, I'm sure I'll have missed one or many.

Not just ESM's, but Plugins it uses to function.

There is only one rule applied, it must be after it's Required Master Files in the LO


No grouping. No Alphabetical sorting, this can easily be seen using TES5Edit, check the File headers, Notice no A to Z Logic

BOSS my understanding is the Groups had some element of this, something like;

Group A Master Files=Skyrim.ESM

Group B Master Files=Skyrim.ESM+Update.ESM

Group C Master Files=Skyrim.ESM+Dawnguard.ESM

Each Group also in A to Z Order


There are no unknown Plugins with LOOT


Just those that for various reasons require a MasterList Entry, just for LO that's currently under 300.

General Warnings like Bash Tags, Dirty Edits etc. many more of these in MasterList, but these are nothing to do with LO


I commend any testing of actual events and will accept valid evidence of actual in the wild events. What I state is generally based on the theoretical operation of LOOT, sometimes bugs can make that theory invalid, sometimes I can just misunderstand something, both events are rare, but all programs have bugs, nobodies perfect. I'd be a fool to think otherwise.

My aim is to improve everyones understanding, including my own.

[Edit]

However, I've noticed that when you choose 'after' there's no telling just how far down the list 'after' will be. Hence my comment about multiple rules.

This matters in what way, that's the only requirement needed, You can use Priorities for absolute position, 99.9% of Mods have a priority of 0.
So in MasterList only the two ends of LO are Prioritized, if you start using it in the main body you have to assign it for most if not all Plugin's.
You can do so if you want to, There's
±2 Million numbers available and
-1998000
+1990000
are the Lowest used for MasterList, though I recommend Using under 1 Million for user edits, still more than enough I think.

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