Why LOOT is much better than BOSS ever could be

[Prometeus5879]

What worries me is you think that a valid and fair test,

New Game started with existing Mod List, Already pre-organised using BOSS with Many user Edits and or BUM used, must be so as a virgin BOSS run would move many unknown mods to Bottom of the List causing much more issues than a virgin LOOT run would.

So you Compare LOOT's first run with a well ordered and previously managed BOSS run. 

Of course BOSS had no issues you'd fixed all them prior to the Test even starting.

New game only eliminated irrelevant savegame issues, which assuming your save loads, would not matter.

Blaming in game issues that in all liklihood have nothing to do with LO just because you see them means nothing without knowing the exact cause

 

Delete all the BOSS user edits let it move all unknown mods to the Bottom of the List, then try and see which is worse.

Testing both under the same conditions is just the starting point for valid testing, you never even started.

 

Your test proves only that you do not know how to test.

 

Read OP also about how in game issues are rarely anything to do with LO, those few that are, Namely from BSA's with Scripts, but only if conflicting with another BSA script, are valid MasterList entries for LOOT, which relies on users reporting the issues to put them in MasterList to begin with. Very few so far confirmed reports suggest rarity.

 

Not a single edit was done was done by myself. What I did was a test with an out of the box version of BOSS compared to an out of the box version of LOOT. Only thing I've noticed is that LOOT didn't work that well for me with the mod's I have installed.

 

While I know problems can be limited to my setup, it doesn't mean that I don't have the right to post my experience here. Calling me someone who can't test is a rather personal insult and has no place in this discussion.

[gvman3670]

I'm not having any issues at all on 6 different profiles. I did mention CTDs earlier in this thread, but haven't experienced them since then. Those 6 profiles are running from 98 to 232 plugins in them, too.

 

Overall I am giving LOOT a big thumbs up.

[Uhuru N'Uru]

 

Not a single edit was done was done by myself. What I did was a test with an out of the box version of BOSS compared to an out of the box version of LOOT. Only thing I've noticed is that LOOT didn't work that well for me with the mod's I have installed.

 

While I know problems can be limited to my setup, it doesn't mean that I don't have the right to post my experience here. Calling me someone who can't test is a rather personal insult and has no place in this discussion.

With what mods installed, the real problem with BOSS is the MatserList is massively out of date especially with Non Nexus Mods like this site, only if you have very few mods would BOSS sort them with no issues, this is the reason LOOT exists to start with. If you have some LoversLab mods or the less popular Nexus ones it is highly unlikely BOSS would sort them all out of the box, ever. The newer the mods the more likely this will happen.

 

Starting a new game and even redownloading BOSS would not wipe out any edits from the old game that was using those mods, the files are in a separate place.

This is what I'm basing my assessment on, not saying you deliberately tested wrong but with any average and updated Mod List, BOSS just doesn't work out of the Box any more and hasn't for a long while.

 

LOOT was called BOSS v3 until people posting unsubstantiated claims about it almost drove Wrinkly Ninja (the author of both BOSS and LOOT) into stopping Modding altogether.

It is very unlikely BOSS will ever sort a Load Ortder better than LOOT out of the box. It relies on a manually edited MasterList that gets more out of date every day, if you don't know this you must do very little modding and only download the most popular mods on Nexus updating after a month or two.

Either way BOSS is broken LOOT is BOSSv3 renamed made by the same person who made BOSS.

 

So no I cant just accept that BOSS sorted your Mods Better than LOOT with no evidence as you provided absolutely nothing to back up your claim, just saying it was not proof of anything and what I described is still the most likely explanation, for BOSS to sort your plugins without error.

Just claiming it did it is not good enough. Especially when you claim LOOT needs more testing, its had 9 Alpha versions and 16 Beta versions over the year it was developed before release. It is the most tested Mod ever made and tested by some of the most knowledgable modders ably helped by those who've helped keep BOSS going as long as they could, the masterList editors. So if after all that testing and retesting you think your single test is better, then yes I still think you are wrong.

Unless you can show every version (New version requires new entry) of all your mods (you've not even said what or how many) is in the BOSS MasterList, I stand by my statement. Even then I will only withdraw it given the new evidence, as part of testing is providing valid evidence, not unsubstantiated statements.

[gvman3670]

I went and put LOOT to a test the other day. I installed SkyKids (the mod here on LL). The install directions say to use BOSS with a custom userlist in order for the Skyproc patcher to function (the clothing swapper that the mod uses). When I first ran the patcher it asked me if I wanted to continue without BOSS and it promptly shut down since it didn't have sorting info. But I ran LOOT then the Skyproc patcher ran perfectly afterwards. And everything in the mod WORKS.

 

So in this case LOOT just made that mod a lot easier for me to install and use.

[Hentai-chan]

I've already got a nicely working load order. Is this really necessary? I mean I've got a lot of mods that demand the bottom-end. I'd really rather not re-sort it all if it isn't worth the pain.

[gvman3670]

I've already got a nicely working load order. Is this really necessary? I mean I've got a lot of mods that demand the bottom-end. I'd really rather not re-sort it all if it isn't worth the pain.

Run it and see if it works. If it doesn't just put it back the way it was. It will probably work, though.

[Pinute]

 

I've already got a nicely working load order. Is this really necessary? I mean I've got a lot of mods that demand the bottom-end. I'd really rather not re-sort it all if it isn't worth the pain.

Run it and see if it works. If it doesn't just put it back the way it was. It will probably work, though.

 

 

If you're not planning on changing your mod list then there's no real reason to switch - it's not like you're constantly running BOSS to integrate new mods.

 

I held off on LOOT until I wanted to try another mod set. LOOT worked just fine with it.

[RitualClarity]

I ran into a small problem.. not major but a small problem

 

Game = FNV

Issue = load order with TTW. (Tale of Two Wastelands).

 

The sort didn't sort them like TTW stated. However the masters and such that were generated still matched the masters listed in the esm.

 

The issue. This is heavily scripted and very fragile and  as expected since it is literally running two games in one. I ended up having to change the load order to their suggested load order to be sure it worked properly. This might be a good consideration to have added to the Master list of LOOT. Not sure though. To prevent future issues I locked the load orders with MO. (all other mods go below anyway or so far as I have read).. I had weird issues that cropped up until I fixed the load order to their suggested order.

[prozac00]

Tried using Loot...and it's inconsistent...

 

When it works for me it really works...gameplay is smoother...so something is going right.

 

When it goes wrong, it really goes wrong and its usually in player houses. It ends up defaulting me back to the inn at Riverwood, removes any ECE- race edits, my character has no hair, AND reboots all my MCM dependent quests.

 

Which is a pain. If this was consistent behavior I would point to something in another mod but the only variable I am changing is with LOOT.

 

Finally getting it to work after doing the same amount of work it took for me to customize my BOSS load order. WHich is well not the point.

 

Is LOOT really looking at functionality and other such tags? Because it just simply seems to me within some of the sections; just alphabetical order even though I know that nominally that really should be in the order after that...A little more transparency might convince me...but eh.

 

Also some search options either in the sort analysis or details would be nice...or at least allow Cntrl + F...

 

Will do a little more troubleshooting...might just be me...and no one else

[Ailsa]

So far LOOT has been totally consistent for me and I am beginning to understand it better than I ever understood Boss.  

[Veladarius]

I think my only problem with LOOT is that is scatters things all over the place. I have found parts of Relighting Skyrim, Better Sorting, RND and SMIM all over the place in my load order.

[Pinute]

I think my only problem with LOOT is that is scatters things all over the place. I have found parts of Relighting Skyrim, Better Sorting, RND and SMIM all over the place in my load order.

 

Yeah, that's a bit disconcerting. We're accustomed to human soothing sorts - LOOT doesn't really care a lick about how it looks to us.

[Veladarius]

 

I think my only problem with LOOT is that is scatters things all over the place. I have found parts of Relighting Skyrim, Better Sorting, RND and SMIM all over the place in my load order.

 

Yeah, that's a bit disconcerting. We're accustomed to human soothing sorts - LOOT doesn't really care a lick about how it looks to us.

 

 

I need some semblance of order to my mod listing since I have nearly 255 esm's / esp's. I can understand having Relighting Skyrim scattered all over but mods like RND they could at least put the patches along with it since they require RND.

[Pinute]

LOOT doesn't pay any attention to which mod an esp came from, so it doesn't really have a way to keep esp's grouped by mod. All it cares about is, as we go down the the esm/esp list is that dependent esps are below those they depend upon. Along with a couple of other things B3lisario talks about a few pages back.

 

I can relate to the long mod list - mine's hovering right around 245-250. I've gotten a lot more dependent on MO's search function.

 

And I been jarred by a couple of sorts - have you had SD-Dragonborn.esp gets sorted above Sanguinesdebauchery.esp? Made me actually take a look at the esps, and, yep, it doesn't matter that it's loaded first. 

 

The only problem I've had are a couple of custom patches (lighting overrides, mostly) that I needed to add the esp overridden as a master so that it gets sorted properly. But then, I'd been custom sorting in BUM anyway.

[Veladarius]

About 75 of them are items such as armor or weapons and such and about half of these are collections of items. There are a few that are hairs and such (maybe 15 or so) and the rest change gameplay or the world and I don't use any custom houses or followers either.

 

I had not used BOSS in a long time, maybe once in the last 5-6 months as the last time I did there were things that didn't work correctly after that. After going through my load order earlier today I doubt I will use LOOT again either, it is easier to place things manually.

[Pinute]

My current run has nearly everything in Skyrim Revisited: Legendary version (something like 140-50 mods I think) and the rest are a handful of armor mods, npc adds, gameplay difficulty changes and a heavy dose of SL mods. 

[RitualClarity]

My current attempt to get FNV up and running with MO using LOOT. Didn't work. The TTW and mods aren't loaded correctly when using LOOT. FNVedit is finding critical errors. I think  I so far had to correct 5 load errors that would cause a CTD if I started the game with that load order.

 

 

[00:10] Background Loader: Fatal: <Exception: "UHNV-Bobblehunt.esp" requires master "Bobblehunt.esp" to be loaded before it.>

The above was after running LOOT through MO.

 

[Uhuru N'Uru]

I've already got a nicely working load order. Is this really necessary? I mean I've got a lot of mods that demand the bottom-end. I'd really rather not re-sort it all if it isn't worth the pain.

No mod is absolutely Neccssary and with an already Well Ordered Load, properly sorted, with many user edits, whether using BOSS or SUM.

For your current install, I would generally say carry on if you can manage your Load Order yourself.

If you are relying on BOSS to do the job though, I can't see anything getting better.

The MasterList was always edited by only 5 or 6 people all very committed to supporting Wrinkly Ninja and his brilliant tool.

They are still doing all that, but they've transferred that loyalty to the current version which is LOOT.

Whether they will even bother with BOSS MasterList I don't know. It has been made easier to add edits to BOSS MasterList.

Bottom line is if people haven't stepped up before LOOT was made, when BOSS was the only option available, who will when LOOT can do it automatically and better.

 

If you use Mod Organizer you can Backup your current Profile, try LOOT and go back to the backup if you want.

 

Where BOSS will likekly last Longest is the Older Games, these are not suffering from out of date MasterList.

One dedicated MasterList Editor can easily keep up with the much slower rate of new Mods and updates.

LOOT actually would take much more effort to get it up to scratch, from far fewer modders.

Though Load Order Edits are few, the Bash Tags are much more complex requiring a lot more input.

Basically BOSS is doing the job here so the benefit is less or none.

[Uhuru N'Uru]

My current attempt to get FNV up and running with MO using LOOT. Didn't work. The TTW and mods aren't loaded correctly when using LOOT. FNVedit is finding critical errors. I think  I so far had to correct 5 load errors that would cause a CTD if I started the game with that load order.

 

 

[00:10] Background Loader: Fatal: <Exception: "UHNV-Bobblehunt.esp" requires master "Bobblehunt.esp" to be loaded before it.>

The above was after running LOOT through MO.

LOOT Missed masters.PNG

See my post above to see the situation for the older games.

LOOT will generally work fine for 99%, but some mods do require MasterList entries, for Skyrim this is mostly done, but still the last few rarely combined mods are being reported. Most reports do not result in actual MasterList changes.

The older games BOSS MasterList can cope with, the need is not the same, so I expect you will see more real issues with LOOT

Simply report on LOOT's Skyrim Forum and MasterList gets better for all.

 

[Hentai-chan]

Just ran LOOT, to see what all the fuss is about. And I gotta say that: I am appalled by how fast Skyrim loads now. I had to make slight changes because I had bottom-end mods that just can't function if anywhere else, of course, but yeah Skyrim (and saves!) load insanely fast now.

[gvman3670]

 

 

I've already got a nicely working load order. Is this really necessary? I mean I've got a lot of mods that demand the bottom-end. I'd really rather not re-sort it all if it isn't worth the pain.

Run it and see if it works. If it doesn't just put it back the way it was. It will probably work, though.

 

 

If you're not planning on changing your mod list then there's no real reason to switch - it's not like you're constantly running BOSS to integrate new mods.

 

I held off on LOOT until I wanted to try another mod set. LOOT worked just fine with it.

 

I use Mod Organizer, and have several profiles, so I have to run BOSS (or now LOOT) and FNIS fairly often.

[Pinute]

 

I use Mod Organizer, and have several profiles, so I have to run BOSS (or now LOOT) and FNIS fairly often.

 

 

I also use MO, which remembers load order for each profile so once one's set you shouldn't need LOOT. I just run WRYE, SUM, then FNIS and go.

[RitualClarity]

 

My current attempt to get FNV up and running with MO using LOOT. Didn't work. The TTW and mods aren't loaded correctly when using LOOT. FNVedit is finding critical errors. I think  I so far had to correct 5 load errors that would cause a CTD if I started the game with that load order.

 

 

[00:10] Background Loader: Fatal: <Exception: "UHNV-Bobblehunt.esp" requires master "Bobblehunt.esp" to be loaded before it.>

The above was after running LOOT through MO.

LOOT Missed masters.PNG

See my post above to see the situation for the older games.

LOOT will generally work fine for 99%, but some mods do require MasterList entries, for Skyrim this is mostly done, but still the last few rarely combined mods are being reported. Most reports do not result in actual MasterList changes.

The older games BOSS MasterList can cope with, the need is not the same, so I expect you will see more real issues with LOOT

Simply report on LOOT's Skyrim Forum and MasterList gets better for all.

 

I understand.

 

There are two actual issues I am encountering.

 

One is actual load errors that FNV is throwing a hissy about and causing the game to crash after a LOOT sort.

 

Two is support issues sometimes require mods to be placed in sepecific orders like in TWW. if you present a load order tht isnt' following that order you basically don't get support even if it really don't matter if FO3 Pitt is below Zeta as neither accesses records of the other. LIkely these would work just fine.

 

Number one.. yes perhaps I should report those issues. I was reluctant because I am newer to this process and TTW users as well. When I report a problem I want to be as sure as I can be about the issue.

 

Number two... Not even sure if they would be interested or even would do anything about "developer preference" issues like in TTW. It seems as if LOOT developers are only focusing on the minimum requirements to make sure the game works. Less is more approach. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

In this case with me being new to reporting to them.. should I report these issues (non-game breaking issues that are support related).

[Uhuru N'Uru]

Just ran LOOT, to see what all the fuss is about. And I gotta say that: I am appalled by how fast Skyrim loads now. I had to make slight changes because I had bottom-end mods that just can't function if anywhere else, of course, but yeah Skyrim (and saves!) load insanely fast now.

Name these bottom end mods here first and I'll give my opinion, Others can also.

Simply put saying this doesn't make it true, even if the author is the one saying it.

If every author who says put my mod last was actually correct the last mods would be half the LO.

Often this is said to make it easier for the author, not the modder, that's the wrong way round.

Why do they do this? The mod in Last place is never overwritten, they don't care about mod compatibility, it's the other mods problem not theirs.

Simple fact is only one plugin must be always last by definition. In Skyrim that's currently one in Warburghs Map Mod.

You could well be right about your LO, if you are LOOT should already sort it right, if it's not the plugin needs reporting.

 

 

I use Mod Organizer, and have several profiles, so I have to run BOSS (or now LOOT) and FNIS fairly often.

 

I also use MO, which remembers load order for each profile so once one's set you shouldn't need LOOT. I just run WRYE, SUM, then FNIS and go.

 

You are both, right it depends on how you play though:

• Constantly updating Mods requires constant reuse of LOOT, FNIS Bashed Patch SUM …
• Set of Mods not updated while playing requires same as 1 to Set then leaving alone as long as nothing changes

So just depends on whether you Play and Mod or Mod then Play

 

I understand.

 

There are two actual issues I am encountering.

 

One is actual load errors that FNV is throwing a hissy about and causing the game to crash after a LOOT sort.

 

Two is support issues sometimes require mods to be placed in sepecific orders like in TWW. if you present a load order tht isnt' following that order you basically don't get support even if it really don't matter if FO3 Pitt is below Zeta as neither accesses records of the other. LIkely these would work just fine.

 

Number one.. yes perhaps I should report those issues. I was reluctant because I am newer to this process and TTW users as well. When I report a problem I want to be as sure as I can be about the issue.

 

Number two... Not even sure if they would be interested or even would do anything about "developer preference" issues like in TTW. It seems as if LOOT developers are only focusing on the minimum requirements to make sure the game works. Less is more approach. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

In this case with me being new to reporting to them.. should I report these issues (non-game breaking issues that are support related).

1. Report, Report, Report, To be clear what you need for accurate and verifiable report
   1. Exact Plugin Names (Not Mod names they are useless and irrelevant)
   2. The Load Order Given by LOOT as it applies to the issue (Full Order not required just the Involved Mods)
   3. The Order you consider correct as it applies to the issue (Full Order not required just the Involved Mods)
   4. Why you are correct and LOOT is not. (This should be a repeatable game reason not hearsay, even it won't run in another order will do if true but the more specific the better
2. Developer preference not a chance in hell, if any developer is refusing to support users on some arbitrary personal preference of Load Order, that has no ingame basis, their  advise is not given for users benefit anyway, get the support from other users on the Forum. If the developer can't give honest advice to start with, they can't give it at all.
   1. However, if the initial insisted on Load Order was the same as the BOSS Load Order, they deserve the opportunity to update their support requirements
   2. If they do have valid Load Order reasons and LOOT is wrong Report, Report, Report, it's the Only way to get LOOT right for that game.

[Arthenon]

Alright, I made the move over to LOOT. I do have to make just a few changes to the load order but overall, I'm quite pleased with the results. My only problem is UFO isn't working correctly. I followed the instructions for uninstalling and reinstalling UFO and I still have problems. When I crouch, 4 of my followers show up and start following me but when I stand, they walk away. My player follower count is at 0. Even though I dismissed them, I still get the dialogue as if they are following me.