Why LOOT is much better than BOSS ever could be

[Prometeus5879]

Got my mods sorted with LOOT and everything is working now (being a bad tester I didn't gave up until I knew what was going on  ).

 

Main issue was that due to a different load order I got conflicts from mods where I didn't expect them. Guess I've been lucky with BOSS in the past. I've added the required exceptions in LOOT and everything is fine now.

 

Still there is one last thing I don't quite get. Below is an example of a mod with an added priority. RFYL (Run For Your Lives, just as an example) ends up between Alternate Start (1990000) and Bashed patch (1991000), who both are in the master list.

 

I would have expected to see RFYL sorted just above Alternative start, yet it ends up below the (1)990000 priority. Did I miss something?

 

 

[Uhuru N'Uru]

Alright, I made the move over to LOOT. I do have to make just a few changes to the load order but overall, I'm quite pleased with the results. My only problem is UFO isn't working correctly. I followed the instructions for uninstalling and reinstalling UFO and I still have problems. When I crouch, 4 of my followers show up and start following me but when I stand, they walk away. My player follower count is at 0. Even though I dismissed them, I still get the dialogue as if they are following me.

Unlikely that Load Order causing any in game issues, the only way to be sure is checking for Script Conflicts in BSA's.

I think Wrye Bash will have some method to do this. It's a damn good manager for all but Skyrim, even so still a good manager for Skyrim considering how little support it's received and Lojack one of the Devs who went AWOL because of RL has returned at start of year, so it's now getting some much needed work done.

Honestly as far as Skyrim and SSD use goes it's methods are old. The fact its in 3rd place on all time utilities behind TES5Edit 1st and Mod Organizer 2nd, when it had over a year without any change, just shows how good it is. (Don't post Auto Unequip Ammo is 1st, it's a Game Effect not Utility)

Mod Organizer though was better before LOOT and has already been adapted to work even better with LOOT.

I have posted how and why in detail before so just the bare facts.

• Treating BSA's as Loose while still actually BSA's uses less Space and Eliminates the BSA script issue entirely, allowing MO's easily manipulated Mod Order (=Install Order)

  to be adjusted to eliminate conflicting Script errors and all file conflicts by drag and drop.

• This eliminates the incorrect but often used adjustments of Load Order to "Fix" in game issues, the BSA script conflicts are the only in game errors this is correct for
• The great difficulty with using Install Order to correct these issues after install has Led to many Load Order changes being used instead to correct for bad install Order management and the myth that it's just for choosing which mod wins a conflict, the myth part isn't that this is wrong, just that it's not always right, rarely will the entire Mod install Order be right for every file and often the user has no choice at all, Scripts are again the main issue causing this.
• MO's great advantage is post install editing is equally easy for both Orders, thus not requiring such care at start, or disruption afterwards if it's done wrong

NMM is really useless for this fine control and I can't emphasize enough it's like IE in windows was 99% use it and don't even know about other options.

It's actually much easier for a beginner to start with MO than NMM, the harder thing is to unlearn NMM and replace it with MO's much different methods.

though it's the same for Wrye Bash users they cope better due to fact Wrye Bash is more technical, so they tend to understand why the difference exists.

The trick is forget what you know, things are totally different to NMM and trying to match features doesn't work.

 

Got my mods sorted with LOOT and everything is working now (being a bad tester I didn't gave up until I knew what was going on ).

 

Main issue was that due to a different load order I got conflicts from mods where I didn't expect them. Guess I've been lucky with BOSS in the past. I've added the required exceptions in LOOT and everything is fine now.

 

Still there is one last thing I don't quite get. Below is an example of a mod with an added priority. RFYL (Run For Your Lives, just as an example) ends up between Alternate Start (1990000) and Bashed patch (1991000), who both are in the master list.

 

I would have expected to see RFYL sorted just above Alternative start, yet it ends up below the (1)990000 priority. Did I miss something?

 

Loot.PNG

Well I know that both are right as the priority tags (and After tags) are only used when Mods require such things, MasterList Edits are for confirmed issues only that normal LOOT methods don't work on.

In this case though we have even better evidence than most, they are both Arthmoor mods and he's part of the extended LOOT team, he would make sure his mods are sorted correctly even if he wasn't though.

Basically a MasterList Edit is a confirmation that it's right, though always double check for new versions, it's rare but sometimes Mods requirements change with updates.

 

As for your required exceptions there should be none, personal choices are not required, actual real issues need reporting, in my last post I give whats required for that, honestly should not be any required edits at all. See above answer for basic facts and other posts made here for much greater detail as to why they are true.

[Prometeus5879]

I have those exceptions for mods I've created myself. Things that aren't published anywhere. I guess a lot of modders have such personal mods, so such exceptions can be required. Some of my mods replace outfits and I don't want other mods to overule those. That's why I want them down at the bottom of the load order, yet I don't want them to be mixed with what the masterlist puts at the bottom.

 

I've picked 'Run For Your Lives' as an example, so there would be no discussion about the origin of the mod.

 

The 'LOOT Readme' says the following about the priority:

 

"Modifies plugin position relative to others that change one or more of the same records, but which are otherwise unrelated (ie. neither plugin lists the other as a master, requirement, or in its "load after" list). Plugins that don't change any of the same records are not compared, unless:

 

One of the plugins is a "dummy" plugin, containing only a header record.

 

One of the plugins has a priority greater than or equal to 1,000,000. In this case, only the modulo (ie. remainder when divided) with 1,000,000 is used when comparing plugin priority values – the rest is only used to signify that the plugin should be compared against all others.

 

For example, priorities of 153,000,352 and 352 have equal values when compared, but a plugin with the first priority will be compared against all others, while a (non-dummy) plugin with the second priority will be compared against only those it conflicts with.

 

A plugin with a higher priority value will load after a plugin with a lower priority value. Plugins have a default priority of 0."

 

 

So I would expect that in my example RFYL with priority (1)000999 would be ordered before Alternative Start (1)990000, as 999 is lower then 990000. Yet LOOT sorts them in a different way. 

 

[Prometeus5879]

Found out why the sort order was somewhat confusing in my opinion.

 

If you take my first example then you will see that an extra mod, BetterQuestObjectives-AlternativeStartPatch, is mixed between the mods sorted at the bottom due to masterlist rules. This is normal because BetterQuestObjectives-AlternativeStartPatch depends on 'Alternative Start'. Yet BetterQuestObjectives itself doesn't have a priority.

 

So LOOT goes from priority 1990000 to 0 and then sorts my mod which ends up after the 0 of BetterQuestObjectives.

 

Edit: or maybe LOOT goes from the bottom, takes 1991000 of bashed patch, then goes to 0 and puts RFYL in between those.

 

 

When as a test I've removed BetterQuestObjectives, the mods got sorted as expected.

 

 

The conclusion is that one must watch out with mods that end up between those loaded at the bottom by masterlist rules and that have no priority set, as those can mess up your load order.

 

Maybe LOOT shouln't let mods that end up between the masterlist order and have priority 0 reset that priority for the rest of the sorting as those can only end up there because they are dependant on mods in the master list.

 

 

 

[Emberheart]

Most of my mods are home-brewed, they alter the story of Skyrim, leaving characters such as Lisette alive, giving Katria a new lease on life through the aetherial crown and what not, because I'm stuborn and I like the outcome of my own story better. I doubt BOSS or LOOT will leave the fragile tapestry of those mods whole, if they understand or recognize its workings at all.

[RitualClarity]

I must be getting confused.. even if you create a mod and never release it it should still work provided that you input the correct masters into the esp or esm. Loot looks at those and adjust the load order accordingly. What is being stated now would be the case with BOSS as there needs to be an addition to the "master list" to accommodate the mods and with them not being released there would be no master list updated to accommodate these custom mods.

 

 

[Emberheart]

It includes custom master files as well, plus a set of esp's tapping into customized scripts I made when I did not yet uphold to the proper conventions for modding. Right now it all works, always has, with Skyrim's own plug-inn tool. For now it's a matter of why change it if it's not broken for me. It's a card house right now. But if I'd run a new game without my own customizations LOOT sounds like an option. I remember running a similar tool a year ago, it made many things run different from how it should, probably because back in 2011/2012 I didn't mod proper yet. For now things always work for me manually. LOOT is nice if I play a fresh game.

[RitualClarity]

You can always input exceptions into LOOTS metadata option if needed. Then it don't matter what goes on you can get the load order that you need for those few exceptions that are needed. I personally haven't set it up for myself yet but it seems easy enough. Very much like BUN.

[Uhuru N'Uru]

...Snip

The conclusion is that one must watch out with mods that end up between those loaded at the bottom by masterlist rules and that have no priority set, as those can mess up your load order.

 

Maybe LOOT shouln't let mods that end up between the masterlist order and have priority 0 reset that priority for the rest of the sorting as those can only end up there because they are dependant on mods in the master list.

Right understand now, maybe fixed though, try with latest MasterList as Run for Your Lives now has no Priority Order at all, what you show certainly shouldn't happen, if you still are seeing an issue reporting on LOOT's Bethesda page is only way to get it fixed, I suspect an update changed something and because MasterList edits are involved, this still can take time to correct.

 

Sorry for not spotting the priority numbers in first post, rushed end of post to get my meal which was sat on table going cold, assumed you were thinking prioirity order was wrong not that it wasn't applying it correctly.

 

Your own mods should not generally need User Edits to be positioned correctly in Load Order, just like 99.9% of public mods, LOOT should get it right the same for both.

Example is Dynamic Patches (Bashed Patch, SkyProc Patchers) because the contents and therefore required Master files can change, the BOSS / traditional way of sorting these is to place at end of Load Order, LOOT applies MasterList Entries to ensure the same.

If LOOT was around when these were first used though that requirement would never have been needed, it would place the patches where they needed to be.

It is only backward compatibility with this long standing rule that requires it now.

Not the patchers actual functionality, but to many things are designed to expect them at end to change it now.

 

I must be getting confused.. even if you create a mod and never release it it should still work provided that you input the correct masters into the esp or esm. Loot looks at those and adjust the load order accordingly. What is being stated now would be the case with BOSS as there needs to be an addition to the "master list" to accommodate the mods and with them not being released there would be no master list updated to accommodate these custom mods.

 

Actually it should do it whether you do or not, as it reads mods "like" TES5Edit, but there's always the 0.1% that need MasterList edits and for personal mods that means user list edits, then if you just want to specify order for Aesthetic/OCD reasons it's always an option also.

[quin666]

Boss? Loot? Whatever! Go with one get job done without bs. Go with one you guys prefer most.

[Prometeus5879]

 

Right understand now, maybe fixed though, try with latest MasterList as Run for Your Lives now has no Priority Order at all, what you show certainly shouldn't happen, if you still are seeing an issue reporting on LOOT's Bethesda page is only way to get it fixed, I suspect an update changed something and because MasterList edits are involved, this still can take time to correct.

 

Sorry for not spotting the priority numbers in first post, rushed end of post to get my meal which was sat on table going cold, assumed you were thinking prioirity order was wrong not that it wasn't applying it correctly.

 

Your own mods should not generally need User Edits to be positioned correctly in Load Order, just like 99.9% of public mods, LOOT should get it right the same for both.

Example is Dynamic Patches (Bashed Patch, SkyProc Patchers) because the contents and therefore required Master files can change, the BOSS / traditional way of sorting these is to place at end of Load Order, LOOT applies MasterList Entries to ensure the same.

If LOOT was around when these were first used though that requirement would never have been needed, it would place the patches where they needed to be.

It is only backward compatibility with this long standing rule that requires it now.

Not the patchers actual functionality, but to many things are designed to expect them at end to change it now.

 

 

 

I've submitted the issue to the loot GitHub.

 

Just to clarify things: Run For Your Lives doesn't have a priority. I've randomly picked RFYL and gave it a priority as an example to show what is going and to allow people to reproduce the issue. In my case I've added the priority to a mod I made myself (esm, esp, an armor replacer) only dependent on Skyrim.esp. LOOT doesn't have a lot to work with to sort that mod and as expected sorted it above mods (also armor replacers) that override what my mod does. Hence the priority rule added to my mod to keep it at the bottom.

[gvman3670]

Alright, you LOOT mofos. Big questions here.

 

I just did a factory restore on a computer. Did all the MS updates for W7. I have installed Skyrim on it, plus all the goodies (MO, TES5EDIT, etc.). And I've installed LOOT as well. But when I try to run LOOT I get a "MSVCR120.dll is missing from your computer" error message.

 

The bad part is that I've done some searches and can't find much on that .dll file at all. I did get directed to MS to download MS Visual C++, but when it finishes it says I have a newer version on here and nothing happens after that. I can't even find the loose file to stuff it into the registry. And I really need this so I can get my new install up and running.

 

Any clue where to get this? Or how to fix this silliness? There's nothing on the LOOT site at all.

[b3lisario]

I just did a factory restore on a computer. Did all the MS updates for W7. I have installed Skyrim on it, plus all the goodies (MO, TES5EDIT, etc.). And I've installed LOOT as well. But when I try to run LOOT I get a "MSVCR120.dll is missing from your computer" error message.

"Installation & Uninstallation" here http://loot.github.io/docs/dev/LOOT%20Readme.html

[gvman3670]

 

I just did a factory restore on a computer. Did all the MS updates for W7. I have installed Skyrim on it, plus all the goodies (MO, TES5EDIT, etc.). And I've installed LOOT as well. But when I try to run LOOT I get a "MSVCR120.dll is missing from your computer" error message.

"Installation & Uninstallation" here http://loot.github.io/docs/dev/LOOT%20Readme.html

 

Thanks. LOOT launches now. Great.

 

 

Now I just have to figure out why my game won't launch.

[ErikModi]

So, I was really excited to check out LOOT after reading the first couple of threads.

 

Sadly, it works far worse for me than BOSS ever did.

 

The first times I tried using, my game flat-out crashed right after the Bethesda logo, every single time.  So I went back to using BOSS.  Other conflicts came up, and I wound up completely deleting my Data folder to clear out old "residual" mods, repatching through Steam, and reinstalling the mods I wanted to keep.  LOOT seemed to work, but when I got into Riverwood, I noticed that neither my ApachiiHair for NPCs nor my CBBE NPC bodies were showing up.  Tried a few things, then used BOSS.  Everything works perfectly.

 

Am I missing something obvious, or is LOOT just not as good as people are saying?

[Prometeus5879]

I can only advice 3 things: MO, LOOT and Tes5Edit.

 

MO as it is in my opinion the best mod organizer if you like to keep everything clean and like experimenting with mods.

LOOT for sorting your mod order. It might need some tweaks.

Tes5Edit to detect possible mod conflicts so you know how to tweak LOOT, and to clean your mods ofc.

[ErikModi]

I have Nexus Mod Manager, BOSS and LOOT, and TESV Edit.  Haven't tried cleaning any mods in it, though.  Things work well enough, and I'm not confidant enough to start messing with things.

[gvman3670]

I have Nexus Mod Manager, BOSS and LOOT, and TESV Edit.  Haven't tried cleaning any mods in it, though.  Things work well enough, and I'm not confidant enough to start messing with things.

 

This shows just how easy it is to use. You'll be shocked. It's simpler than using NMM.

[ErikModi]

Yeah, I've watched that vid.  But I haven't had any problems severe enough to start poking around with it.

[Uhuru N'Uru]

I have Nexus Mod Manager, BOSS and LOOT, and TESV Edit.  Haven't tried cleaning any mods in it, though.  Things work well enough, and I'm not confidant enough to start messing with things.

You mod, you mess with things, that's what modding is.

As to what you are missing,  first from a fresh install you installed mods (some number geater than one) than you sorted with LOOT, you see in game issues, not doubting they existed but you assume LOOT responsible, you sort with BOSS it works.

 

I say this with no malice you are wrong at every Step

First. NMM I was watching Gopher's Mod Testing Stream yesterday and a user asked him why he used NMM, his reply was because it's what most users use so I do so they can easily follow my advice, even with Fallout and I think Fallout Mod Manager is better.

This is entirely the wrong thing to do, totally and utter failure to advise at all. He gives good advice usually, yet with the most important utility for all modding decisions that follow he gives none, worse he doesn't even review others at all.

NMM is frankly a steaming pile of crap, most who use it never chose to use it, just like IE on Windows it's dangled in front of the beginner they think it must be good it's the Nexus Mod Manager made by Professional programmers. It works for all these games. They build a cherished character and don't want to lose it, changing later is difficult when you know what to do, they get used to it, stick with what they know. Many discover Gopher early on if not before they start, his guides are good overall, widely recommended, I do recommend them myself, but he has self admitted flaws, this one he doesn't admit to at all, doesn't appear to see it at all, it is his worst flaw of all.

All those who watch his videos take his NMM use as a recommendation it's the best, it is the worst Mod Manager for Skyrim. I honestly don't think it's the best for any game at all, but when you're modding Skyrim you need the best manager fo Skyrim, not any other game.

Wrye Bash is a very good and very technical manager and for all other Bethesda TES/Fallout games is arguably the very best, but not for Skyrim because for about 18 months no developement occurred at all, knowledgable Loyal users stepped up with Hotfixes to keep it running but that was all, The main Dev Lojack was stolen by real Life, he returned only this year, but for all that lack of developement, it still kicks the ass off NMM for fun.

Mod Organizer is better for Skyrim, is better for SSD, is better for Multiple Profiles, is better and easier for beginners to learn than Wrye Bash and NMM (unlearning NMM makes it harder), Finally, you can run Wrye Bash through MO for making a Bashed Patch, Wrye Bash is better for that still.

I've give this so much space because it is the most important utility used for modding, but gets the least attention. I'll leave it there because I've said most of it before in this thread, read them post's if you want more details.

 

When you've actually chosen a manager you install, a single mod at a time, then sort with LOOT not BOSS which doesn't work out of the box because the MasterList it uses is totally out of date and gets worse every day.

You have TES5Edit use it to clean your mods. they are problems severe enough to start poking around with it they cause crashes.

Using TES5Edit for this is vital for the Bethesda Plugins, it is basic and Gophers 100% right here as he usually is, just not always.

If this is all you ever use it for you will do enough, though LOOT may flag Mods for Cleaning if the Author is active it's there job to do, so only abandoned mods need you're attention, here I recommend waiting awhile as many authors will fix these and sometimes ITM's are intended and neccessary.

 

I can't be 100% sure without seeing the relevant files but I'm 99% sure it's this you see with BOSS.

You've Reinstalled a bunch of preselected mods from an existing and tweaked Load Order, likely installed in the same order even if you've skipped a few. LOOT sorts and various in game issues occur, 99.9% of mods are sorted automatically by LOOT, in game issues are nothing to do with Load Order for them, my OP explains this in detail. Only 0.1% of mods require more care, basically only Conflicting Scripts in BSA's are issues for Load Order even then only by proxy because BSA's are linked to plugins not anything to do with the plugin itself.

MO actually eliminates this from Load Order by treating BSA's as Loose Files while still actually BSA's which makes it a Mod Priority Order issue (Install Order) and changable by simple Drag and Drop with MO.

BOSS though has already been corrected for this order so no issues are found. A complete fresh BOSS install including deleting existing Files in your

AppData/Local/BOSS folder is needed to actually do a virgin BOSS run, SUM files also if you used that.

 

This is the usual case involved with these types of post, I have seen many such posts and so far every single one has failed to produce evidence to back up the initial statement, I must add, all have been genuine posts, made honestly, without malice, but lacking in knowledge.

[ErikModi]

All I know is, with NMM and BOSS, my game runs fine, save for the odd crash here or there, nothing serious.  I have had some serious issues, but those have all been me messing something up (either not having the right requisite mods, not installing them in the right order, or not using utilities that fix issues other mods unintentionally bring up, like crashing on character creation because I had too much hair and no kill cache.)

 

When I use LOOT, my game either doesn't run at all, or LOOT doesn't "allow" certain mods to run (like Apachi SkyHair and CBBE for NPCs).

 

I'm not saying you're wrong (far from it. . . I fully admit my ignorance in modding past installing them and getting them to work right, mostly), I'm just saying that my experience in running the game is vastly different.  I might try another mod manager at some point, if things don't run as smoothly as I'd like, but I have enough downloads invested in NMM that switching off of it would be more hassle than it's worth, since I'm experiencing practically zero issues.  And the issues I am having are with mods that have been abandoned by their creators and aren't working as they should be (notably, Amazing Caves and Evil Lair of Hydra), and I'm reasonably certain using different game tools isn't going to magically fix those mods.

 

Basically, things aren't broken for me, so there isn't enough incentive to try fixing them.  Especially since I just restarted the game AGAIN and would like to get at least one solid playthrough done eventually.

[sunhawken]

Why are you giving BOSS a bad name? It was great and now LOOt has come but it was never crap. :/ I'ved had crashes with both requiring manual intervention 

[sunhawken]

All I know is, with NMM and BOSS, my game runs fine, save for the odd crash here or there, nothing serious.  I have had some serious issues, but those have all been me messing something up (either not having the right requisite mods, not installing them in the right order, or not using utilities that fix issues other mods unintentionally bring up, like crashing on character creation because I had too much hair and no kill cache.)

 

When I use LOOT, my game either doesn't run at all, or LOOT doesn't "allow" certain mods to run (like Apachi SkyHair and CBBE for NPCs).

 

I'm not saying you're wrong (far from it. . . I fully admit my ignorance in modding past installing them and getting them to work right, mostly), I'm just saying that my experience in running the game is vastly different.  I might try another mod manager at some point, if things don't run as smoothly as I'd like, but I have enough downloads invested in NMM that switching off of it would be more hassle than it's worth, since I'm experiencing practically zero issues.  And the issues I am having are with mods that have been abandoned by their creators and aren't working as they should be (notably, Amazing Caves and Evil Lair of Hydra), and I'm reasonably certain using different game tools isn't going to magically fix those mods.

 

Basically, things aren't broken for me, so there isn't enough incentive to try fixing them.  Especially since I just restarted the game AGAIN and would like to get at least one solid playthrough done eventually.

I want to finish all my quests mods by 2015 lol but mods and CTD make me ADD. lol

[gvman3670]

All I know is, with NMM and BOSS, my game runs fine, save for the odd crash here or there, nothing serious.  I have had some serious issues, but those have all been me messing something up (either not having the right requisite mods, not installing them in the right order, or not using utilities that fix issues other mods unintentionally bring up

And that is the thing, man. With a REAL mod manager (like Mod Organizer) you would never have even those issues. Nope. You can't install things in the wrong order. You will see a notice if a master is missing. It even has BOSS integrated to warn you of potential load order issues.

 

Yup, you should move up to the big leagues, my man. Then you can also have multiple profiles each running their own sets of mods and each having their own saves (and ini's). Heck, the ability to start a new profile and character and have it running in 15 minutes or less is in itself worth the switch. Plus the fact that your Skyrim folder stays clean and unmolested so reinstalling is a thing of the past.

 

You just can't break Skyrim permanently using Mod Organizer. Well, maybe I could if I could figure out how.

[RitualClarity]

 

All I know is, with NMM and BOSS, my game runs fine, save for the odd crash here or there, nothing serious.  I have had some serious issues, but those have all been me messing something up (either not having the right requisite mods, not installing them in the right order, or not using utilities that fix issues other mods unintentionally bring up

And that is the thing, man. With a REAL mod manager (like Mod Organizer) you would never have even those issues. Nope. You can't install things in the wrong order. You will see a notice if a master is missing. It even has BOSS integrated to warn you of potential load order issues.

 

Yup, you should move up to the big leagues, my man. Then you can also have multiple profiles each running their own sets of mods and each having their own saves (and ini's). Heck, the ability to start a new profile and character and have it running in 15 minutes or less is in itself worth the switch. Plus the fact that your Skyrim folder stays clean and unmolested so reinstalling is a thing of the past.

 

You just can't break Skyrim permanently using Mod Organizer. Well, maybe I could if I could figure out how.

 

Ignore the warnings MO gives you...

 

You can copy a profile. Install updates and test/play. If you find the updates mess with your game you just delete that profile and return to the original and continue on as if nothing happened. Have a version that is incomparable with the newest mods .. no problem. just run that mod in a different profile and you can continue until it is fixed or you are board of it.