[mod] Carnalitas Slavery Reimagined

[SGTHatred]

1 hour ago, pharaox said:

This is again "not to my taste". I think I should rather make sure that the AI can benefit from slaves in ways already prescribed by the game - by using them as councilors or knights, by selling or ransoming them, by pressing their titles, or by enjoying their attractiveness (this last one is a bit problematic, I know).

You are basically just reverting slaves to courtiers and concubines. 

[Durante]

3 hours ago, pharaox said:

 

You mean how the AI would make such a decision? With a prisoner, you can never be sure. There is a number of competing interactions that are executed by the AI with different frequency. The first one that results in a positive ai_will_do modifier will be randomly checked with probability the value of that modifier divided by 100. If the check succeeds, the effects listed in on_accept will be performed. As a result, a prisoner may be executed, enslaved, ransomed, freed, etc.

 

I'm curious what influences this, because I've done testing before, and now with the mod enabled a ruler enslaves prisoner instead of taking as concubine, I'm wondering whether other rulers won't stop taking concubines at all with this.

Edited February 9, 2023 by Durante

[Durante]

17 hours ago, SGTHatred said:

It would be hard to find historical examples of slave owners not having the legal right to kill their slaves. It is not tasteful at all. It just is. 

 

 

Not at all. Slaves had ample rights during the Roman Empire for example, the master would be tried for homicide if the slave was murdered without just cause,  and the poor slave could even file complaints against their master for mistreatment. In Middle Ages the treatment of slaves depended  on religious views of the slave rather than law. Christian slaves would be treated more like serfs among Christians, while for example Pagans could have no rights at all.

[Klein Moretti]

Ok I'm using this and realizing I can't sell any of my slaves. It always has a permanent debuff because saying can't afford the money. Even if they can, like in this screenshot. It also shows the wrong value for the slave.

[pharaox]

On 2/11/2023 at 10:05 PM, Klein Moretti said:

It always has a permanent debuff because saying can't afford the money. Even if they can, like in this screenshot. It also shows the wrong value for the slave.

 

Let me explain:

* "He cannot afford the gold" is just the AI base reluctance to spend money. It has to be outweighed by positive modifiers for the AI to buy your slave - e.g. the slave can be used as a councilor, court physician, or a knight, has claims, is attractive, or is a visibly fertile female (can have children that will also become slaves). The opinion of the buyer to you also plays a role. In your case you don't get enough positive modifier points for this particular slave and buyer. The phrase "He cannot afford the gold" is unfortunately a bit confusing, so I will change it in the next version to something like "Reluctant to spend gold" (losing the non-English localization unfortunately).

* "King Robert does not have 115" is a check that AI's "short term gold" is more than "medium gold value". This was intended to prevent the AI from spending too money on frivolous purchases if they need it for something more important. Here, 115 is the "medium gold value" of this ruler, not the slave price. Unfortunately, this is even more confusing, and also not very effective, so in the next version it's going away entirely. Instead, the AI will simply never offer to pay more than their short term budget, with a better message explaining why they are offering less money (if their short term budget is less than the slave price).

 

There are many other changes coming in the next version that will hopefully improve all of this, among them:

* More reasons for the AI to consider slaves as useful - court positions, commanders, etc.

* The AI is more willing to buy younger / less willing to buy older slaves

* The AI is more willing to buy cheaper / less willing to buy expensive slaves

* Enabled spending hooks in Buy Slave and Sell Slave to make the AI always buy or sell (still within their short term budget)

* New Gift Slave interaction to offer a slave as a gift to another ruler for an opinion gain.

Edited February 12, 2023 by pharaox

[pharaox]

On 2/9/2023 at 10:36 PM, SGTHatred said:

You are basically just reverting slaves to courtiers and concubines.

 

Yes! Courtiers / concubines that never go away, are sexually available, are not limited in number, can be bought and sold, can be ransomed, can be gifted, can be imprisoned without tyranny, and can be freed in order to do anything a slave is not allowed to do, e.g. marry or be offered as a concubine. They can of course also fill councilor and court positions, and serve as commanders and knights. They also trigger some unique events ("runaway slave", etc.). All of this well balanced, interacting properly with other parts of the game, and designed  so that both the human player and the AI can benefit from it.

 

If you want to use other human-only questionably balanced mods on top of it you can already do it. If you want to use it to build something even better you are welcome to try. To me the above is both meaningful enough and ambitious enough for the time being.

Edited February 12, 2023 by pharaox

[Klein Moretti]

Ah ok I get it now then. But even disconsidering the terminology I think it's a bit hard to sell slaves now. I didn't even manage to sell one in over 60 years of gameplay. I even got a princess of bohemia as a slave at some point and couldn't sell her.

[The Mad Lad]

Is it possible for you to add the buy foreign slaves' event to decisions? I'm looking through the file now itself, trying to increase the frequency in which it happens. Can't find it in the file itself.

[Drake_Hound]

Nice balancing , sadly couple of issues ...

 

1 Seize slave , should be without owner this .. why incase AI randomly generate slaves that has no owners. 

or player just console command ad a slave trait to somebody. 

2 Yearly memory issue on action... with freed and enslaved that doesn't find the tag owner. 

3 Takes 2 year before the AI decides to enslave a ruler (oh that ruler is his liege with a criminal record and tons of positive since the AI is the heir) 

sorry with so much benefits , the AI is sure slow to do something that benefits it .. even rape action fires off yearly so does torture. but rightful enslavement takes 2 years ?

 

Now request , want to have a AUCTION like the royal court artifact auction.  (after that AI slow enslavement is fixed) 

 

But all in all works fine with Slavery Expansion (not sure about breeders haven't tested that one yet )

 

Request can somebody make a SLAVE auction event ... like that of Royal Court Artifact Auction. 

 

Edited February 17, 2023 by Drake_Hound

[Drake_Hound]

Funny enough loading a OLD save , means I cannot sell any slaves it always says 100% not enough gold (while the buyer had more then enough gold) , while starting a new game selling slaves work fine from get go. 

[pharaox]

On 2/13/2023 at 4:33 AM, Klein Moretti said:

But even disconsidering the terminology I think it's a bit hard to sell slaves now.

 

As I wrote in the description and in other posts, this is partly the idea. It's not realistic to expect AI rulers to buy any slave you decide to sell to them, and especially with the increased prices in this mod this could heavily affect their ability to compete. Therefore, they try to judge slaves based on their usefulness and spend no more money than they can afford. Still, this is all a subject of further tweaking until a proper balance is found. In the next version, slave prices will be decreased further, and more reasons for the AI to want to buy slaves will be introduced, so hopefully more slaves will be sellable at some point, albeit for less money.

 

On 2/13/2023 at 4:33 AM, Klein Moretti said:

I didn't even manage to sell one in over 60 years of gameplay.

 

This sounds a bit extreme. I am aiming at a ratio of perhaps 30% of slaves to be sellable while at their prime, and this is mostly what I am seeing while testing. Females especially are easier to sell while young (due to the "visibly fertile female" modifier), attractive characters are easier to sell especially to lustful rulers, characters with any skill above 15 are easier to sell since the AI mostly uses unskilled councillors and knights, etc. In the next version, characters with average or better aptitude for certain court positions (court physician, antiquarian) will be (much) easier to sell. Whether a character is a princess however doesn't matter - she might be a bit more expensive due to her claims / dynasty, but the AI won't be impressed unless she has something else they consider useful.

 

Slaves that can't be sold can still be ransomed, gifted (in the next version), or freed (to be used as normal courtiers).

[pharaox]

On 2/16/2023 at 10:48 PM, The Mad Lad said:

Is it possible for you to add the buy foreign slaves' event to decisions? I'm looking through the file now itself, trying to increase the frequency in which it happens. Can't find it in the file itself.

 

It happens approx. every 5 years for every ruler of rank count or above. The correct file is carnx_slave_on_actions.txt, check five_year_playable_pulse.

 

I don't think increasing the frequency is a good idea, the AI may end up spending too much money on slaves. If you simply want to buy more slaves, you could use "Buy Slaves" to check what your AI vassals or neighbours have. Regarding making it a decision, I thought about it but decided against as it's more difficult to code properly and I am not sure it's worth the effort. I also personally like the "nice surprise" part of it.

[pharaox]

23 hours ago, Drake_Hound said:

Seize slave , should be without owner this .. why incase AI randomly generate slaves that has no owners. 

or player just console command ad a slave trait to somebody.

 

Not sure what are you referring to. A slave must always have an owner. The AI does not randomly generate slaves without owners; if you are referring to the "Buy Foreign Slaves" event, the generated characters are not initially slaves, they only become ones if they are bought, otherwise they "disappear without a trace". Console commands I will not even consider, they are likely to break many things not just this one, so do it at your own peril.

 

23 hours ago, Drake_Hound said:

Yearly memory issue on action... with freed and enslaved that doesn't find the tag owner.

 

I haven't seen this issue, could you please post a screenshot or an error message from error.log?

 

23 hours ago, Drake_Hound said:

even rape action fires off yearly so does torture. but rightful enslavement takes 2 years

 

The enslave interactions is tested every 1 year, not 2 years, actually more frequently than other prison interactions. There are a number of considerations affecting the decision of AI to enslave, it's not automatic. It depends e.g. on their compassion, greed, opinion of prisoner, slavery doctrines, family and relations, usefulness of prisoner, etc. Still, the factors are rather skewed towards eventually enslaving, except for really compassionate characters, and this is what I am seeing while testing as well. The 2 years "ban on enslavement" mentioned in the description is only for characters the AI may consider executing (a minority of prisoners that are criminals or rivals). I don't want the execution to be replaced with enslavement, unless the AI somehow postponed it for 2 years.

 

What I really want to avoid is enslavement taking over all other possible prisoner interactions, so that prisoners are almost never executed, ransomed, released, or tortured any more. I am again trying to find a proper balance here. I should probably test this part a bit more and come up with some statistics of how often different prisoner interactions actually have consequences.

 

On 2/17/2023 at 11:30 AM, Drake_Hound said:

Now request , want to have a AUCTION like the royal court artifact auction.

 

Thanks for the suggestion, will check it out.

 

10 hours ago, Drake_Hound said:

means I cannot sell any slaves it always says 100% not enough gold (while the buyer had more then enough gold)

 

Check other posts, the "100% not enough gold" modifier is going away entirely in the next version, hopefully this will also fix your issue (though I am not really sure why you have it after loading a save).

[Drake_Hound]

 

Anyway most of those bugs were from a old savegame . 

I just # all the debuglog in on action so it stops happening . 

None of the NEW games start with this mod enabled have issues.. 

 

Also the 100% gold dissapears after a year .. but since am running multiple Mods .. am trying to squash down the yearly on actions that are not useful for my gameplay.

[pharaox]

5 hours ago, Drake_Hound said:

Anyway most of those bugs were from a old savegame .

 

Yes, I suspect the above is not caused by this mod since "I was imprisoned by " is a vanilla memory I haven't touched, but the imprisoner name is missing there as well.

[pharaox]

I just released a new version of this mod, 0.3.0, see file. I hope you all like it! Many thanks to all who contributed feedback and suggestions, I tried to include a lot of it into this version, for more information see the "What's New" section or the changelog inside the archive.

[pharaox]

On 2/9/2023 at 7:54 AM, SGTHatred said:

I would not know how to code it but if a ruler lost all titles or died then their slaves should be given to either their heir if they are rulers or to to whoever took their last primary title. 

 

I found a way to make slaves of characters that are alive but no longer rulers seized by whoever took their last title as you suggested. This is included in the new version 0.3.0.

[The Mad Lad]

11 hours ago, pharaox said:

 

It happens approx. every 5 years for every ruler of rank count or above. The correct file is carnx_slave_on_actions.txt, check five_year_playable_pulse.

 

I don't think increasing the frequency is a good idea, the AI may end up spending too much money on slaves. If you simply want to buy more slaves, you could use "Buy Slaves" to check what your AI vassals or neighbours have. Regarding making it a decision, I thought about it but decided against as it's more difficult to code properly and I am not sure it's worth the effort. I also personally like the "nice surprise" part of it.

Yeah I ended up finding it and realized that it probably wasn't a good idea for that reason. Thanks for the quick reply. 

[SadPianist]

I have Carnalitas Slavery Expansion in my game as well (set to on), so I'm not sure whether the issue is this mod or that one, but I have prostitution laws set to "slave prostitution" on the asatru religion, which states that slave owners who force slaves to work as prostitutes don't lose piety, but my character loses 650 piety consistently due to slave prostitution (only have 1 slave prostitute). I have tried this both with a Catholic slave (hostile faith slavery which is accepted) and with an asatru slave, both with the same result.

[pharaox]

On 2/21/2023 at 11:32 PM, SadPianist said:

but my character loses 650 piety consistently due to slave prostitution (only have 1 slave prostitute)

 

This mod doesn't touch prostitution at all. The word "prostitute" and its derivatives are absent from the code. It does enforce the original Carnalitas slavery doctrines somewhat more strictly as mentioned in the description, but only during interactions. In short, I don't see how it could cause such an issue. I assume it's caused by either the Slavery Expansion itself or by some other mod.

[Klein Moretti]

New version seems to work a lot better now.

[krappaclub]

Tried the new version. Good traits slaves, for example genius slaves, seem to spawn a lot. These slaves are free after a few years. Making eugenics easier.

[pharaox]

On 2/28/2023 at 11:14 PM, Klein Moretti said:

New version seems to work a lot better now.

 

Thanks! Better in terms of it's easier to sell slaves or in some other ways?

 

18 hours ago, krappaclub said:

Good traits slaves, for example genius slaves, seem to spawn a lot.

 

Indeed. This is because AI rulers buy only the best slaves in the "Buy Foreign Slaves" event, and these are much more likely to be beauties and geniuses. For the next version, I am working on a total revamp of the system that will hopefully spawn useful slaves without them being so often of exceptional quality.

[pharaox]

I am working on the next version of the CSR mod, still have some work to do but I wanted to share my ideas. I am thinking of introducing an authentic demand for slaves in the world by revamping some of the existing court positions and introducing a few new ones that are reserved for slaves.

 

The idea is somewhat similar to "slave professions" in the slavery expansion mod, but using court positions has a number of advantages - they can be much more sophisticated, the AI can take full advantage of them, and they can be easily restricted by religion, culture, government type, etc. In a nutshell, the main features are:

 

* For 14 of the existing court positions (basically all of them except the religious and the ceremonial ones), much lower salaries (25% of the original) are paid if occupied by slaves, the slave gets an opinion boost (loyalty), and also the AI is more likely to appoint slaves to them.

* There are 4 additional court positions with multiple actual positions each that are reserved for slaves or former slaves, also at low salaries and conferring somewhat lesser but still tangible advantages. I am thinking of: "slave concubine" (or "lesser concubine", restricted to polygamous religions and cultures, diplomacy), "slave captain" (or "mameluke captain", restricted to clan governments, martial), "slave eunuch" (or "court eunuch", an eunuch of lesser status than the "chief eunuch", restricted to cultures that can employ eunuchs, intrigue), and "slave administrator" (stewardship).

* When evaluating slaves for buying, selling, enslaving, etc., the AI considers their fitness for all these positions. For example, they would still sometimes buy a slave just for their attractiveness if they are attractive enough, but they would be interested also in less attractive ones if they could employ them as a "slave concubine". Since there are a lot of court positions, much more slaves would be considered useful and would end up actually being used (employed in a court position) by the AI.

* The "Buy Foreign Slaves" event is generating "valuable options" that are a good fit for particular positions, so much less beauties and geniuses will be spawned into the world.

 

The biggest disadvantage is that such a revamp of court positions would erode the mod's compatibility with total conversion mods, such as EK2, since they tend to change court positions as well. I plan to release compatibility patches for EK2 and potentially a few others, but there are simply too many to consider them all. The mod would still work with such mods in general but would either revert their changes to court positions if placed later in the load order, or lose some of the above changes if placed earlier.

 

What do you think? Also, do you use CSR with total conversion mods other than EK2, and if yes which ones?

[Kingskunk]

2 hours ago, pharaox said:

.What do you think? Also, do you use CSR with total conversion mods other than EK2, and if yes which ones?

 

I don't use it with any other total conversion mods. I think the ideas are good, my biggest issue with slavery expansion is that the IA doesnt actually appoint any of the slaves they have to the positions it provides which forced me to greatly nerf them(and lessen the health maluses a bit). I am not sure how well it would mesh with Slavery Expansion, it could potentially replace the mod as well since those positions sound like they overlap. There are mods that edit the court position gui and add the the court. It's pretty easy for me to make a patch for any mod that may conflict with slavery expansion changes to the gui, not sure how simple it would be doing that to a mod that affects court positions. 

 

If the changes are easy enough to make, they should for for me, I think my modding experience is good enough at this point and its not the first time I've had to compatch LL mods and workshop mods. I would just patch it for my load order and honestly probably just tie the whole system into Slavery Expansion for personal use to get the best of both worlds. I think most folks who use the mod also use SE, but it's probably a good idea to keep the public release seperate from requiring SE.

 

I would force my character to only be allowed to appoint a "Slave General"  from only slaves with 2 or more in the slave commander modifier, "Less Concubines" are limited to sex slaves with a prostitution rank of more than 2, 'Slave Eunuchs' from court slaves and "Slave Administrator" from slaves with more than 2 in the Slave Labour modifier. I may also make opinion changes to the owner for slaves that possess these court positions for a more hierarchy among slaves feeling.