Diary Of Mine for Paradise Halls

[Gukahn]

23 minutes ago, TrollAutokill said:

Version 2.1.0 is out. It’s a new platform to improve on slave dialogues and feelings. 
 

 

The sex animation was not working in my test, it needs more debugging. Tell me if you have the same results.

Worked for me with a shocked Slave (Unique npc), just took a short while to start a scene.

But it also showed a punish with sex message 

Edited November 9, 2021 by Gukahn

[pinky6225]

6 minutes ago, DocClox said:

 

Thing is, there's no lore justification for slavery. It's been illegal across the Empire since Helseth outlawed the practice in Morrowind more tab two hundred years agone. Now there may well be some equivalent status in the Aldmeri Dominion - certainly the Atmer have a history for using goblin slave armies, for instance. Still nothing in Lore explains how slavery works.

 

And to add to that, we don't really have any mod framework that explains why it's happening in Skyrim. Everyone maybe has their own headcanon, but there's nothing definitive. So based on that...

 

I'd say that

• Firstly, slavery was and remains illegal in Skyrim. Possibly modified by how much AYGAS has affected local custom in your game, but the baseline is illegality.
• Secondly, there are, perhaps, slavery-like practices in force. Both side of the civil ware lead captives around the countryside. Maybe having a captive and leading her around on a leash isn't entirely frowned up. Keeping her tied and naked is not perhaps considered good taste in some circles, but not actually illegal.
• Thirdly, and the point at hand, not being slaves, you'd have no right to kill them out of hand. So I'd be quite happy if killing a slave incurred the same penalties as killing a free person. Maybe a 20% discount on the fine out of consideration for the slaver's difficult circumstance or something.
• Fourthly, I don't think slave testimony should be admissible about their captor.  If we accept that keeping these captives has some basis for acceptance, then it seems reasonably that many of them would like their heads off to get their master in trouble. So I'd say that slaves shouldn't count as witnesses if you did kill another slave.
• Fifthly, this also raises the question of whether raping slaves should be considered criminal or not. Personally, I'd tend to leave it as it is and let some other sex mod take the strain on that one.

All that said: I don't have any problem with the current stat of affairs. I'm just trying to think through the issues a little for whatever it may be worth. (Plus, it was an interesting question).

 

 

 

Suppose it does depend quite a lot on what other mods your using, slave run when quest completed slavery is accepted, AYGAS again if you sell enough slavery is accepted pretty much everywhere so with either of those (or both) slavery does become the norm for skyrim

 

HSH implies its done but is kept under the radar as its mostly criminals being sold (least thats how the quest line in it starts out)

 

Other mod i can think of that imply its being done is helgun reborn although mostly by the aldmeri with the empire ignoring it

 

Kinda the same with beyond skyrim - reach although all kinda dark shit is going on there

[TrollAutokill]

18 minutes ago, Gukahn said:

Worked for me with a shocked Slave (Unique npc), just took a short while to start a scene.

But it also showed a punish with sex message 

Thanks! Did it go out of dialogue by itself or did you have to exit dialogue?

[Gukahn]

6 minutes ago, TrollAutokill said:

Thanks! Did it go out of dialogue by itself or did you have to exit dialogue?

 

Np, i had to exit dialogue

[Antiope_Apollonia]

2 hours ago, pinky6225 said:

Don't think it would be "more lorewise" since slaves are property so if you decide to kill your property that wouldn't be a crime, same as if you decide to pick up something in your house, thats not theft

It depends on which Tamriel you live in.  I assume you live in chattel slavery Tamriel (along with Troll and many others), but a lot of us live in something closer to Classical slavery Tamriel, and in much of the Classical world, slaves did have some very limited rights and couldn't be arbitrarily killed without cause.  I think they're both perfectly valid RP assumptions.  That's why I suggested an MCM toggle so people can decide which Tamriel they're playing in.  

 

2 hours ago, TrollAutokill said:

Version 2.1.0 is out. It’s a new platform to improve on slave dialogues and feelings. 

Can't wait to try it out, sounds great!  You rock.

 

2 hours ago, DocClox said:

And to add to that, we don't really have any mod framework that explains why it's happening in Skyrim. Everyone maybe has their own headcanon, but there's nothing definitive.

That's pretty much my point.  Maybe I shouldn't have used the term "lore," but I don't really see a better alternative.  I didn't mean "what's canon according to everything in the official Elder Scrolls universe" so much as "what's reasonably realistic given the assumptions people generally make when roleplaying in Skyrim."  And when it comes to slavery, there seem to be two basic camps.  Right now, the version of slavery in PAHE/DoM/etc. is mostly the chattel variety, and these mods are still great fun for those of us in the other camp, but I'm always looking for easy opportunities for these mods to reach out to the other side of the community without having to fundamentally change or do a ton of additional work.  I just thought this might be such an opportunity, but I'm not really sure how labour-intensive it would be, so maybe not.  

 

Troll has made some great additions to move things in that direction already, so I'm excited to see what else could be done.

 

2 hours ago, DocClox said:

Fourthly, I don't think slave testimony should be admissible about their captor.  If we accept that keeping these captives has some basis for acceptance, then it seems reasonably that many of them would like their heads off to get their master in trouble. So I'd say that slaves shouldn't count as witnesses if you did kill another slave.

This is pretty much the opposite of what first came to my mind, but you make a compelling case.  I think you're right.  So if we were to use my idea of training playing a role, you'd want untrained slaves to not count as witnesses because their testimony would be unreliable, but well-trained slaves might be, because they're at peace with their role.  

 

---

 

I've been working on a blog post outlining the RP foundations of "Antiope's Tamriel" for anyone who might be curious, by the way.  It will lay out how I imagine slavery working in Tamriel in more detail than would be responsible to derail this thread with. ? It should be finished—at least a good enough first draft—pretty soon.  I'll probably link it my signature when it's ready.  

Edited November 9, 2021 by Antiope_Appolonia

[TrollAutokill]

I personally related my slavery lore to the history of the northern part of Tamriel and especially Morrowind where many races were enslaved by the Altmer and then the Chimer and the Dunmer. 

[Antiope_Apollonia]

@TrollAutokill You mentioned in passing something being coded as a "small reason" for praise so that it could be overwritten a while back, and I meant to ask you about this and forgot until I was just looking through my notes. 

 

Am I correct in my understanding that their are basically two tiers of reasons for praise?  (And scolding, too, or no?)  And "small" doesn't overwrite small nor "big" overwrite big, but big overwrites small, aye?  So it seems like "[slave] fought well" is currently set as a "big reason"—could this be changed to be a small reason?  Maybe I just play the game weird, but to me, "fought well" feels pretty dime-a-dozen, and I'm always disappointed when I realise I forgot to praise for combat ages ago and so they haven't generated any new reasons.

[TrollAutokill]

22 minutes ago, Antiope_Appolonia said:

@TrollAutokill You mentioned in passing something being coded as a "small reason" for praise so that it could be overwritten a while back, and I meant to ask you about this and forgot until I was just looking through my notes. 

 

Am I correct in my understanding that their are basically two tiers of reasons for praise?  (And scolding, too, or no?)  And "small" doesn't overwrite small nor "big" overwrite big, but big overwrites small, aye?  So it seems like "[slave] fought well" is currently set as a "big reason"—could this be changed to be a small reason?  Maybe I just play the game weird, but to me, "fought well" feels pretty dime-a-dozen, and I'm always disappointed when I realise I forgot to praise for combat ages ago and so they haven't generated any new reasons.

Small reasons are implemented for scolding and punishment, not for praising. But that could be changed.

[Antiope_Apollonia]

10 minutes ago, TrollAutokill said:

Small reasons are implemented for scolding and punishment, not for praising. But that could be changed.

I wouldn't say it's a big deal if it requires much dev time, but if it's an easy tweak, I'd say making "fought well" an overwritable reason for praise would remove a minor annoyance that occurs when playing DoM. 

 

EDIT: Although, thinking more about it, maybe this would ultimately be better addressed by what I mentioned in my big playthrough notes wall-o'-text with regard to reworking how combat participation is determined in the first place.  If I didn't have all my slaves credited for combat participation, even if they're hogtied somewhere nearby, just because I one-shot a wolf, this probably wouldn't be much of an issue.  Dunno.  I don't have any strong opinions here.  

Edited November 9, 2021 by Antiope_Appolonia

[TrollAutokill]

3 hours ago, Gukahn said:

 

Np, i had to exit dialogue

Ok that I have to figure out how it is done in the pahe dialogues.

[TrollAutokill]

1 hour ago, Antiope_Appolonia said:

@TrollAutokill You mentioned in passing something being coded as a "small reason" for praise so that it could be overwritten a while back, and I meant to ask you about this and forgot until I was just looking through my notes. 

 

Am I correct in my understanding that their are basically two tiers of reasons for praise?  (And scolding, too, or no?)  And "small" doesn't overwrite small nor "big" overwrite big, but big overwrites small, aye?  So it seems like "[slave] fought well" is currently set as a "big reason"—could this be changed to be a small reason?  Maybe I just play the game weird, but to me, "fought well" feels pretty dime-a-dozen, and I'm always disappointed when I realise I forgot to praise for combat ages ago and so they haven't generated any new reasons.

 

1 hour ago, Antiope_Appolonia said:

I wouldn't say it's a big deal if it requires much dev time, but if it's an easy tweak, I'd say making "fought well" an overwritable reason for praise would remove a minor annoyance that occurs when playing DoM. 

 

EDIT: Although, thinking more about it, maybe this would ultimately be better addressed by what I mentioned in my big playthrough notes wall-o'-text with regard to reworking how combat participation is determined in the first place.  If I didn't have all my slaves credited for combat participation, even if they're hogtied somewhere nearby, just because I one-shot a wolf, this probably wouldn't be much of an issue.  Dunno.  I don't have any strong opinions here.  

Not it is not big coding. I will add a check on slave status so that slaves who can not move are not credited with fighting and make fighting a small reason.

[Antiope_Apollonia]

1 hour ago, TrollAutokill said:

Not it is not big coding. I will add a check on slave status so that slaves who can not move are not credited with fighting and make fighting a small reason.

That's a big step in the right direction, but I think a better solution would be to exclude slaves who have dealt zero damage in the fight, which would render checking for restraints redundant, if it's possible to do so.  That'd cover most of the odd cases and require the slave to actually "fight" before it's possible that they "fought well".  

[sickboy791]

hey, there was a mod/addon for pah le radialmenu giving you an option to fix zaz gear , this mod works for se as well, i thought it would be nice to have this as a hotkey, if it is possible,

script looks something like this

 

KLBPAHEZAZ   GetState     GotoState OnInit OnUpdate conditional hidden Quest ::KLBpahezazcloaksp_var spell ::KLBPAHEExtZAZ_var KLBpahezazcloaksp KLBPAHEExtZAZ None 9Function that switches this object to the specified state newState String     ::NoneVar 
onEndState self ::State onBeginState 'Function that returns the current state ::temp0 actor ::temp1 Bool game     Getplayer addspell RegisterForSingleUpdate ::temp2 ::temp3 removespell Stop 

 

well in the editor, sry i´m not realy good at this...?

 

[InsanityFactor]

8 hours ago, DocClox said:

 

Thing is, there's no lore justification for slavery. It's been illegal across the Empire since Helseth outlawed the practice in Morrowind more tab two hundred years agone. Now there may well be some equivalent status in the Aldmeri Dominion - certainly the Atmer have a history for using goblin slave armies, for instance. Still nothing in Lore explains how slavery works.

 

And to add to that, we don't really have any mod framework that explains why it's happening in Skyrim. Everyone maybe has their own headcanon, but there's nothing definitive. So based on that...

 

I'd say that

• Firstly, slavery was and remains illegal in Skyrim. Possibly modified by how much AYGAS has affected local custom in your game, but the baseline is illegality.
• Secondly, there are, perhaps, slavery-like practices in force. Both side of the civil ware lead captives around the countryside. Maybe having a captive and leading her around on a leash isn't entirely frowned up. Keeping her tied and naked is not perhaps considered good taste in some circles, but not actually illegal.
• Thirdly, and the point at hand, not being slaves, you'd have no right to kill them out of hand. So I'd be quite happy if killing a slave incurred the same penalties as killing a free person. Maybe a 20% discount on the fine out of consideration for the slaver's difficult circumstance or something.
• Fourthly, I don't think slave testimony should be admissible about their captor.  If we accept that keeping these captives has some basis for acceptance, then it seems reasonably that many of them would like their heads off to get their master in trouble. So I'd say that slaves shouldn't count as witnesses if you did kill another slave.
• Fifthly, this also raises the question of whether raping slaves should be considered criminal or not. Personally, I'd tend to leave it as it is and let some other sex mod take the strain on that one.

All that said: I don't have any problem with the current stat of affairs. I'm just trying to think through the issues a little for whatever it may be worth. (Plus, it was an interesting question).

 

 

Yes strictly speaking it's not really legal under any reasonable conclusions. But here's my headcanon that I think isn't entirely beyond the realm of possibility. I don't really have a point in saying this I'm just sharing for the sake of it. Here's a spoiler for my nonsense and then my useful thoughts will be afterwards.

Spoiler

In the events of Skyrim, the Empire is severely weakened, d and is in no real position to enforce its rules entirely. Depending on your in-game actions, they are either right in the middle of the civil war, just lost the civil war, or are just recovering from a civil war; they have even just lost the Emperor himself if you do the Dark Brotherhood questline. So it's safe to say they're neutered to some degree, at least.

 

I also believe it's lore-accurate that there were those among the Dunmer that resented the abolition of slavery, namely House Dres, so perhaps with the crippled Empire being in no position to assert its authority, moral or otherwise, some of the Dunmer may return to their old practices, it's not really that ridiculous of a notion. So with a neighboring province practicing and presumably profiting from slavery, it's not too far fetched to have it bleed over into Skyrim, especially if there's a Stormcloak victory in the Civil War, where the Empire literally can't enforce any of its laws. I would add on top of that that the Imperials have a very touchy history with slavery (the Ayelids) and their ancient historical epics are about overcoming slavery, but the Nords don't share this origin, and so do not have the same primordial gripe with slavery that the Imperials do. In fact, if we fill in any lore blanks with Scandivian/Nordic cultural practices, slavery was present as a feature of those societies, especially foreigners from faraway raids. Again, this is all reinforced by a Stormcloak victory, but even with an Imperial victory, they'd probably make some concessions to the bitter Nord losers of the civil war in the name of stability and cooperation against the Thalmor eventually, and among those may be slavery legalization. 

 

I suppose ultimately this is more of a justification for slavery to come about reasonably as a result of AYGAS, but nonetheless I think it's not too far out there. Anyways that's just some cool thoughts I had on the topic.

On the idea of implementing bounties related to slave treatment, I personally don't see the point. I mean, why would you kill a slave anyway? And if you were going to, why would it be in a public place? There's also the issue of crime factions, I believe the bounty is assigned based on what hold the victim is from, not the witness, (I could be wrong someone tell me if you know)  and there'd be no way to properly determine what crime faction they should belong to. So slave witnesses are just automatically impossible, and slave victims might be impossible as well. It could be interesting, but speaking personally I would never make use of such a feature, if anything I feel like I would accidentally set it off now and then and get frustrated lol... 

 

That being said I DO dream of a complete and immersive world of classical slavery roleplaying like @Antiope_Appolonia but I must say the crime thing is not really possible, if nothing else just because the Skyrim crime system is honestly shit. It took years to fix the bug of animals reporting your crimes, so I'd say leave it alone; there's other things we can improve/add first to reach Pax Romana levels of decadence.

 

2 hours ago, sickboy791 said:

hey, there was a mod/addon for pah le radialmenu giving you an option to fix zaz gear , this mod works for se as well, i thought it would be nice to have this as a hotkey, if it is possible,

script looks something like this

 

KLBPAHEZAZ   GetState     GotoState OnInit OnUpdate conditional hidden Quest ::KLBpahezazcloaksp_var spell ::KLBPAHEExtZAZ_var KLBpahezazcloaksp KLBPAHEExtZAZ None 9Function that switches this object to the specified state newState String     ::NoneVar 
onEndState self ::State onBeginState 'Function that returns the current state ::temp0 actor ::temp1 Bool game     Getplayer addspell RegisterForSingleUpdate ::temp2 ::temp3 removespell Stop 

 

well in the editor, sry i´m not realy good at this...?

 

Yes! I loved this one back when I played LE, I forgot all about it. It's definitely worth taking a look at @TrollAutokill. At this point there are some redundancies between your mod and this, but the 'Fix Zaz' feature would be amazing if applied to DoM. I'd urge you to check it out.

 

 

[Kalysto]

Using that type of UI would break Diary of Mine compatibility with VR, I had to give up Soulgem Oven for that reason.

Anything you have to point to a target and get the actor using the cursor doesn't work in VR. Fortunatelly even tho some of that is used in DoM you have alternatives within dialog options.

[Antiope_Apollonia]

22 minutes ago, InsanityFactor said:

I personally don't see the point. I mean, why would you kill a slave anyway? And if you were going to, why would it be in a public place?

Personally, I wouldn't, because in my Tamriel, slaves are still people—enslaved people to be sure, but not mere objects.  But knowing the game considers it illegal would be a nice reinforcement of that worldbuilding.  I just thought it might be a simple thing to do, but...

24 minutes ago, InsanityFactor said:

There's also the issue of crime factions

I didn't even think about this whole thing.  I'm still getting a feel for the internal mechanics of all this stuff.  It sounds like it's probably a lot more trouble than it'd be worth.  If it were an easy thing to implement, it'd be a nice bonus, but I'd agree it's not worth investing a lot of time and energy into something complicated for.  

 

30 minutes ago, InsanityFactor said:

But here's my headcanon that I think isn't entirely beyond the realm of possibility

Quite an interesting take.  All seems plausible to me.  But you—and many others here—clearly know the lore of the broader Elder Scrolls universe much better than I do.  I know the lore of Skyrim itself pretty well, but only broad strokes beyond it.  For my purposes, though, it's nice to have rationalisations of how it all fits in with the canon where that's possible, but I don't really need it if it isn't there to be found.  I'm happy enough if I can build my characters' story coherently in the light of the world they actually traverse without worrying too much about things that don't directly intrude into my gameplay.  

[InsanityFactor]

11 minutes ago, Kalysto said:

Using that type of UI would break Diary of Mine compatibility with VR, I had to give up Soulgem Oven for that reason.

Anything you have to point to a target and get the actor using the cursor doesn't work in VR. Fortunatelly even tho some of that is used in DoM you have alternatives within dialog options.

Right. That whole UI wheel wouldn't be necessary for the feature I mentioned, there's a button on that wheel that does some magical script that fixes all DD and Zaz animations, ya know like when you put on an armbinder and they forget to keep their hands there? If there was just a hotkey that did the same thing it'd be awesome, or even dialogue for the VR users out there  Hopefully Troll can just borrow it from that guy, it really was such a huge quality of life improvement even though it seemed like such a small thing.

[Kalysto]

Once they have been trained and moved on to late stages of their new life.

 

What do you think would be the endgame for DoM meta game?

I mean currently, I see it as a pokemon. I find interesting to capture weird/uncommon slaves. Not a big fan of huge camps so I usually keep the best and dispose the rest.

 

So I'm wondering, once you reached that point of 100% training, I feel there must be some kind of micromanagement to keep them interesting.

 

Maybe some radiant quests involving them? Like sending them on missions, some of them might not survive or end up in jail, or enslaved by some other slaver bandit boss.

 

Edit: I realize that it would be stretching the scope of DoM too much, that would be something for a plugin-like mod using DoM features.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Kalysto
On second thought

[Luka9470]

So now the ESP versions for LE is 2.0.4 and 1.9.3？

[Antiope_Apollonia]

41 minutes ago, Kalysto said:

What do you think would be the endgame for DoM meta game?

Why does it need an "endgame"?  The endgame is whatever you make of it.  PAHE/DoM give you powerful tools to shape your world; it's up to you to figure out how to live in that world.  I, for one, am grateful for that freedom.

[InsanityFactor]

Hey reminder to everyone to DISABLE AUTOMATIC UPDATES ON STEAM for Skyrim SE DO NOT RUN IT THROUGH STEAM AFTER THE 11TH, ONLY THROUGH MOD MANAGER.

 

On the 11th of this month there will be an update that will break (almost) all of your mods, learn more here: 

Bethesda is dropping the Anniversary Edition on the 11th and SSE will get an update that does a bunch of technical stuff behind the scenes that just breaks all mods that use Address Library (a shitload of mods) What's more, each mod will have to be remade by the creators almost from scratch, so this isn't just going to get better over time like it did when SE came out, they're seriously fucking us on this one.

 

PLEASE BE ADVISED, I'd hate to lose any of you guys  

Edited November 10, 2021 by InsanityFactor

[Raya]

4 hours ago, InsanityFactor said:

Hey reminder to everyone to DISABLE AUTOMATIC UPDATES ON STEAM for Skyrim SE DO NOT RUN IT THROUGH STEAM AFTER THE 11TH, ONLY THROUGH MOD MANAGER.

 

On the 11th of this month there will be an update that will break (almost) all of your mods, learn more here: 

Bethesda is dropping the Anniversary Edition on the 11th and SSE will get an update that does a bunch of technical stuff behind the scenes that just breaks all mods that use Address Library (a shitload of mods) What's more, each mod will have to be remade by the creators almost from scratch, so this isn't just going to get better over time like it did when SE came out, they're seriously fucking us on this one.

 

PLEASE BE ADVISED, I'd hate to lose any of you guys  

Thank you, you reminded me to download pancake SE before it happens.

[pinky6225]

9 hours ago, Kalysto said:

Once they have been trained and moved on to late stages of their new life.

 

What do you think would be the endgame for DoM meta game?

I mean currently, I see it as a pokemon. I find interesting to capture weird/uncommon slaves. Not a big fan of huge camps so I usually keep the best and dispose the rest.

 

So I'm wondering, once you reached that point of 100% training, I feel there must be some kind of micromanagement to keep them interesting.

 

Maybe some radiant quests involving them? Like sending them on missions, some of them might not survive or end up in jail, or enslaved by some other slaver bandit boss.

 

Edit: I realize that it would be stretching the scope of DoM too much, that would be something for a plugin-like mod using DoM features.

 

Sell them to your friends with AYGAS or have them earn you money in player homes with AYGAS or HSH

 

I've set up two player homes as brothels for trained slaves and then also have a few working in the thieves guild hall, one of which is laila law giver as i used AYGAS to buy her off the person she was sold to as the defeated faction in the civil war

[DocClox]

24 minutes ago, pinky6225 said:

the person she was sold to as the defeated faction in the civil war

 

Which mod does that? Selling defeated Jars, that is.

[pinky6225]

1 minute ago, DocClox said:

 

Which mod does that? Selling defeated Jars, that is.

 

AYGAS - when the civil war is done they start showing up in auctions or owned by random NPC's so Laila i brought from a NPC when i was in Bruma and then jarl skarlad the older (dawnstar one) i got from a whiterun auction, he's currently the HSH task master for me in one of my houses