About Nemesis Behavior Generator: I don't really trust it (if you're interested, hear me out)

[DremoraDream]

So a few points I'm going to illustrate here very quickly:

1) Nemesis isn't even out of alpha

2) It conflicts with one of the longest standing (if not the only) behavior modifier for Skyrim (LE/SE)

3) Modders are releasing brand new material for the game with this generator. Material that is released for an unfinished program is bound to have bugs

So with these things in mind, I aim to just speak my thoughts and opinions on Nemesis. I'll explain in the spoiler.
 

Spoiler

I don't like it.

I've used it successfully with Skyrim SE and have used a bunch of mods that rely on it (CGO - MBO - JO), and I just can't like it. Here's why:

-The new behaviors added through the generator feel unfinished. There's too many bugs and inconsistencies.
CGO struggles to hold compatibility with even simple animation mods (it even breaks eating and drinking animations)
Jump Overhaul is inconsistent, it works half as advertised and when it does work it glitches out (specifically, double landing animations, freezes, disjointed parts of the body in game animations)

Movement Behavior Overhaul just doesn't work. It forces you to cap your FPS at 60 or you get a transitional T-Pose bug when moving. Furthermore it's incompatible with CGO, and offers less.

These are 3 of the biggest hits that came with Nemesis, and while they work, they don't work well. I understand the modders who have put all this time and effort into making these mods and sharing them with us have tried very hard to make these mods functional. Honestly, my goal here isn't to bash them, it's to warn people about using these mods. 

I want to emphasize that the authors for CGO/MBO and similar mods are really doing a fantastic job trying to evolve the Skyrim animation and gameplay scene. Are their mods good? 100% without a doubt, they're excellent. Are they optimal or fully functional? No, they aren't and it's not their fault.

On top of that, as I do spend time on Nexus, the community over there preaches about using Nemesis and it's the one true Behavior Generator. They bash Fore and FNIS as well. Any support asking for FNIS help or the like is met with scoffs and disinformation about Nemesis. But this post isn't about that drama.

This is to point out, as someone who has successfully managed to use Nemesis and FNIS together and take advantage of both mods (it can be done, the Nemesis author and several LL members I've spoken to have illustrated how to set this up), that Nemesis is indeed incomplete and functions as an incomplete tool which does create new bugs and problems for Skyrim SE. If you're going to use the mod, use it with caution. 

I personally don't trust it because I did suffer minor and major issues in my game due to it's functionality. Because of this, I'm keeping it uninstalled until it's a complete feature.



Also, I think these good "core" mods (MBO/CGO/etc) were released as full beta on a platform required to run them thats not even a completed alpha is really silly and kind of a bait.

Just saying, you guys have any opinions?



Edit: As I read through responses, I think I might be likely to change my tune. I think this community can raise some good points I haven't considered. But as of right now, I'll take a program that has shown consistency for years over a new set of mods that rely on a program that's not even complete, before bug fixes and maintenance updates.

[daedal]

1 hour ago, DremoraDream said:

-The new behaviors added through the generator feel unfinished. There's too many bugs and inconsistencies.
CGO struggles to hold compatibility with even simple animation mods (it even breaks eating and drinking animations)
Jump Overhaul is inconsistent, it works half as advertised and when it does work it glitches out (specifically, double landing animations, freezes, disjointed parts of the body in game animations)

Movement Behavior Overhaul just doesn't work. It forces you to cap your FPS at 60 or you get a transitional T-Pose bug when moving. Furthermore it's incompatible with CGO, and offers less.

i tried all of these mods and they worked completely fine, infact it was my most enjoyable and longest playthrough of skyrim. perhaps it was something in your personal loadout?

[27X]

2 hours ago, DremoraDream said:

So a few points I'm going to illustrate here very quickly:

1) Nemesis isn't even out of alpha

2) It conflicts with one of the longest standing (if not the only) behavior modifier for Skyrim (LE/SE)

3) Modders are releasing brand new material for the game with this generator. Material that is released for an unfinished program is bound to have bugs

So with these things in mind, I aim to just speak my thoughts and opinions on Nemesis. I'll explain in the spoiler.
 

  Reveal hidden contents

I don't like it.

I've used it successfully with Skyrim SE and have used a bunch of mods that rely on it (CGO - MBO - JO), and I just can't like it. Here's why:

-The new behaviors added through the generator feel unfinished. There's too many bugs and inconsistencies.
CGO struggles to hold compatibility with even simple animation mods (it even breaks eating and drinking animations)
Jump Overhaul is inconsistent, it works half as advertised and when it does work it glitches out (specifically, double landing animations, freezes, disjointed parts of the body in game animations)

Movement Behavior Overhaul just doesn't work. It forces you to cap your FPS at 60 or you get a transitional T-Pose bug when moving. Furthermore it's incompatible with CGO, and offers less.

These are 3 of the biggest hits that came with Nemesis, and while they work, they don't work well. I understand the modders who have put all this time and effort into making these mods and sharing them with us have tried very hard to make these mods functional. Honestly, my goal here isn't to bash them, it's to warn people about using these mods. 

I want to emphasize that the authors for CGO/MBO and similar mods are really doing a fantastic job trying to evolve the Skyrim animation and gameplay scene. Are their mods good? 100% without a doubt, they're excellent. Are they optimal or fully functional? No, they aren't and it's not their fault.

On top of that, as I do spend time on Nexus, the community over there preaches about using Nemesis and it's the one true Behavior Generator. They bash Fore and FNIS as well. Any support asking for FNIS help or the like is met with scoffs and disinformation about Nemesis. But this post isn't about that drama.

This is to point out, as someone who has successfully managed to use Nemesis and FNIS together and take advantage of both mods (it can be done, the Nemesis author and several LL members I've spoken to have illustrated how to set this up), that Nemesis is indeed incomplete and functions as an incomplete tool which does create new bugs and problems for Skyrim SE. If you're going to use the mod, use it with caution. 

I personally don't trust it because I did suffer minor and major issues in my game due to it's functionality. Because of this, I'm keeping it uninstalled until it's a complete feature.



Also, I think these good "core" mods (MBO/CGO/etc) were released as full beta on a platform required to run them thats not even a completed alpha is really silly and kind of a bait.

Just saying, you guys have any opinions?

 

FNIS still has bugs, and animators still just copy paste shit because they haven't done jack shit in research and other/same animators try to keep their workflow a secret for those sweet patreon dollars, so this PNR devious conspiracy you paint actually covers both sides, and is p much up there with ousnius and cbbe.

 

Fore also makes personal decisions about FNIS that have nothing to with furthering the animation community in Skyrim, and while that's his choice because it's his mod, it still limits what the community can do and is 100% arbitrary and artificial gatekeeping.

 

Nemesis is open source and properly open supported source beats closed every time, without fail, and no argument can be had here because there's fifty years of factual data to back that up, the end. fullstop. period.

 

Whether you like or trust fore or kira is actually completely immaterial, one is public and updated, one is not; the end.

[DremoraDream]

11 hours ago, daedal said:

i tried all of these mods and they worked completely fine, infact it was my most enjoyable and longest playthrough of skyrim. perhaps it was something in your personal loadout?

I think that's the case completely. Believe me, I respect the mod and understand it and the mods that require it function as intended. 

It's just I also feel like, based on a personal experience, I've had no issues or problems with FNIS. It's always been reliable for me. I rarely ahd to go back into my mod lists and think "oh fnis or this fnis mod is the problem". Whereas with Nemesis, I've had to piece things together more. 

It's the nature of new programs, for sure. It's new and has it's gimmicks and quirks.
 

10 hours ago, 27X said:

 

FNIS still has bugs, and animators still just copy paste shit because they haven't done jack shit in research and other/same animators try to keep their workflow a secret for those sweet patreon dollars, so this PNR devious conspiracy you paint actually covers both sides, and is p much up there with ousnius and cbbe.

 

Fore also makes personal decisions about FNIS that have nothing to with furthering the animation community in Skyrim, and while that's his choice because it's his mod, it still limits what the community can do and is 100% arbitrary and artificial gatekeeping.

 

Nemesis is open source and properly open supported source beats closed every time, without fail, and no argument can be had here because there's fifty years of factual data to back that up, the end. fullstop. period.

 

Whether you like or trust fore or kira is actually completely immaterial, one is public and updated, one is not; the end.

Hey, thanks for reading and thanks for your input. I agree with you on most of your points. Open Source is great, and FNIS is definitely a "animator's tyrant" of sorts, which limits the scope of creation for modders.

I think Nemesis is a really solid program as well, don't get me wrong. But it's incomplete. I get fnis has and gets it's consistent share of bugs while Nemesis is still being updated and worked on. 

My main point, however, is that based on experience with the mods that require Nemesis and the user reports that pertain to those mods, Nemesis is still quite inconsistent as it stands right now.

Is it a good program? Absolutely. Is it a good concept? For sure. And could it become better and more functional over time? Undoubtedly So.

But is it reliable? It could be, and I'm hesitant to say yes in it's form right now which makes me say it's currently not. That's why I don't trust it for my personal use.


Side note: it really is fantastic that it is open source (i forgot that when I made my first points) and that it welcomes new types of mods. I just personally think it's still crazy to have "full-fledged" mods released for a program that's not finished, and call them some form of complete. It seems like a rushed method to me, and based on that logic is why I personally don't trust the program as of right now.

[walkingwounded]

It is your personal choice to use, or not use, any mod you want in your configuration.  If you do not want to use anything with a 'beta' status, that is also your choice.

 

1) Nemesis isn't even out of alpha

-technically a beta, but fair point.  The author acknowledges this.

2) It conflicts with one of the longest standing (if not the only) behavior modifier for Skyrim (LE/SE)

-not sure what you mean by this, but I will presume you mean FNIS, which is expected, as Nemesis is indeed aiming to supplant it

3) Modders are releasing brand new material for the game with this generator. Material that is released for an unfinished program is bound to have bugs

-yes, that is also correct.  Animators may have to fix their animations for compatibility if things change between releases, this is normal and I think the animators accept this.  Even FNIS had/has backwards compatibility issues with older animations.  Once you find a combination that works, probably best to leave it alone until you have a compelling reason to update again (as in you want that new feature, or it fixes that bug you care about).  Nemesis will likely mature with an eye toward backwards compatibility if for no other reason than to encourage adoption.

 

Infinite Beta:

I have notice that a lot of open source applications never seem to reach a non beta release, or even a 1.x major release and function just fine.  I suspect this could be a confidence issue with the developers, or just a side effect of some apps being community developed without a 'development plan' to identify when an 'official' release is ready, thus resulting in an infinite beta release.  That said, I've also seen apps that release a new major version almost daily that are still 'half baked'.  There are development principles and practices that can be used to combat this, but this seems to be rare outside of the 'for profit' business model.

 

Features (compared to FNIS):

Nemesis is indeed missing some features compared to FNIS, and the developer acknowledges this, which is a good sign, and also that those features will be added eventually.  If you need those missing features, then stick with FNIS.

 

Stability/bugs (report them):

As many users will attest, Nemesis seems to work fine for many users in its current state, it could also be you are actively looking for things others are not, or others are not using a modlist close enough to yours to experience the same issues.  There could be one animation that does something 'unconventional' that disrupts downstream animations, in which case, if you can identify it, please let the Nemesis dev(s) know so it can be resolved.  If you do not report it, it may not get fixed.

 

Age:

01 March 2012 (first release FNIS), last major update in August 2019

05 November 2016 (first release FNIS SE), and from the nexus page: 2020/02/18 V7.6 . . Final FNIS SE version*

vs

Sep 2, 2018 (first release Nemesis 0.71-beta), 0.84-beta released in May 2020

 

FNIS has been around for longer (over eight years) and its code has matured (many bugs have been identified and resolved).  As the first on the scene, FNIS has an advantage in that developers have already built a catalog of animations and tools to work with it (just check out the release page for a lengthy list).  Nemesis will either have to maintain a compatibility layer to support all the existing FNIS animations, or entice animators to make updated Nemesis compatible animations.

 

* as Fore has stated in the release notes that FNIS SE 7.6 is the Final release, you can presume that further development or fixes may not be possible.  Since Fore controls the source code, that could be a barrier for future animators.

 

Hostility toward FNIS/Fore:

This is bad, and needs to stop, on principle alone.  Fore could just close his account and take FNIS with him if he gets angry enough, then no one will be happy.  I know if I was working on something for no pay and people were hostile toward me, I'd lose interest in it pretty quick.  I heard there was some discontent in the community a few years ago regarding FNIS which lead to the Nemesis engine being created in the first place, so I'm sure a portion of the hostility in both camps is leftover bad emotions from that experience (and why those in either camp may have strong opinions regarding the other).  Not sure what the particulars were, but I get the impression Fore denied some requests for changes/fixes to the engine and things got really personal to those involved in the incident.

[DremoraDream]

2 hours ago, walkingwounded said:

It is your personal choice to use, or not use, any mod you want in your configuration.  If you do not want to use anything with a 'beta' status, that is also your choice.

 

1) Nemesis isn't even out of alpha

-technically a beta, but fair point.  The author acknowledges this.

2) It conflicts with one of the longest standing (if not the only) behavior modifier for Skyrim (LE/SE)

-not sure what you mean by this, but I will presume you mean FNIS, which is expected, as Nemesis is indeed aiming to supplant it

3) Modders are releasing brand new material for the game with this generator. Material that is released for an unfinished program is bound to have bugs

-yes, that is also correct.  Animators may have to fix their animations for compatibility if things change between releases, this is normal and I think the animators accept this.  Even FNIS had/has backwards compatibility issues with older animations.  Once you find a combination that works, probably best to leave it alone until you have a compelling reason to update again (as in you want that new feature, or it fixes that bug you care about).  Nemesis will likely mature with an eye toward backwards compatibility if for no other reason than to encourage adoption.

 

Infinite Beta:

I have notice that a lot of open source applications never seem to reach a non beta release, or even a 1.x major release and function just fine.  I suspect this could be a confidence issue with the developers, or just a side effect of some apps being community developed without a 'development plan' to identify when an 'official' release is ready, thus resulting in an infinite beta release.  That said, I've also seen apps that release a new major version almost daily that are still 'half baked'.  There are development principles and practices that can be used to combat this, but this seems to be rare outside of the 'for profit' business model.

 

Features (compared to FNIS):

Nemesis is indeed missing some features compared to FNIS, and the developer acknowledges this, which is a good sign, and also that those features will be added eventually.  If you need those missing features, then stick with FNIS.

 

Stability/bugs (report them):

As many users will attest, Nemesis seems to work fine for many users in its current state, it could also be you are actively looking for things others are not, or others are not using a modlist close enough to yours to experience the same issues.  There could be one animation that does something 'unconventional' that disrupts downstream animations, in which case, if you can identify it, please let the Nemesis dev(s) know so it can be resolved.  If you do not report it, it may not get fixed.

 

Age:

01 March 2012 (first release FNIS), last major update in August 2019

05 November 2016 (first release FNIS SE), and from the nexus page: 2020/02/18 V7.6 . . Final FNIS SE version*

vs

Sep 2, 2018 (first release Nemesis 0.71-beta), 0.84-beta released in May 2020

 

FNIS has been around for longer (over eight years) and its code has matured (many bugs have been identified and resolved).  As the first on the scene, FNIS has an advantage in that developers have already built a catalog of animations and tools to work with it (just check out the release page for a lengthy list).  Nemesis will either have to maintain a compatibility layer to support all the existing FNIS animations, or entice animators to make updated Nemesis compatible animations.

 

* as Fore has stated in the release notes that FNIS SE 7.6 is the Final release, you can presume that further development or fixes may not be possible.  Since Fore controls the source code, that could be a barrier for future animators.

 

Hostility toward FNIS/Fore:

This is bad, and needs to stop, on principle alone.  Fore could just close his account and take FNIS with him if he gets angry enough, then no one will be happy.  I know if I was working on something for no pay and people were hostile toward me, I'd lose interest in it pretty quick.  I heard there was some discontent in the community a few years ago regarding FNIS which lead to the Nemesis engine being created in the first place, so I'm sure a portion of the hostility in both camps is leftover bad emotions from that experience (and why those in either camp may have strong opinions regarding the other).  Not sure what the particulars were, but I get the impression Fore denied some requests for changes/fixes to the engine and things got really personal to those involved in the incident.

You bring up some good points.

Longevity and "infinite beta" seem to be accepted factors in the modding scene and quite frankly I accept these notions as well. I honestly don't expect a full release from Nemesis anytime soon, as I imagine the work in creating a framework like that must be exhaustive and meticulous. That's understandable. 

As for Fore and Kira, I personally don't know the main drama between them or their mods or their relationship. And not to be disrespectful, but I don't care to know it either. It doesn't concern me or my ability to live, and I don't care to take personal issues between people into consideration. I wish to be as objective as possible as a 'consumer', but we're not perfect....

Even still, I don't know Fore. I don't know why FNIS isn't open source, or allow for modders to take advantage of the full platform. But what I do know is that what Nemesis does is (I'll admit) really amazing for Skyrim (and modding in general).

I understand it's still in it's technical infancy, and you're right - kira has mentioned he's aware of bugs and what needs to be updated or what features need to be implemented. Actually, he's quite active and forthcoming with his communication on his progress which is great. 



I know it sounds like I'm knocking Nemesis pretty hard earlier on in this thread, but my goal isn't to slander one mod over another. I've just personally experienced more consistency with FNIS over Nemesis. If others are inclined to share their SFW or NSFW experiences with the tool, I will get into more specifics. But for right now, I think FNIS is still the safer option and tool of the two.

[walkingwounded]

7 hours ago, DremoraDream said:

I know it sounds like I'm knocking Nemesis pretty hard earlier on in this thread, but my goal isn't to slander one mod over another. I've just personally experienced more consistency with FNIS over Nemesis. If others are inclined to share their SFW or NSFW experiences with the tool, I will get into more specifics. But for right now, I think FNIS is still the safer option and tool of the two.

Fair enough, FNIS is the more mature of the two projects.  Community feedback regarding Nemesis is good, even if it exposes issues.  If nothing else, you might be able to generate some constructive activity around the two projects.

[DremoraDream]

10 hours ago, walkingwounded said:

Fair enough, FNIS is the more mature of the two projects.  Community feedback regarding Nemesis is good, even if it exposes issues.  If nothing else, you might be able to generate some constructive activity around the two projects.

That's also what I'd like to see as well.

Aside from the 2 mods, Skyrim has some of the stiffest animations I've seen in a game in a while. What Nemesis does is great because it unlocks Skyrim for modders to fix all the dated issues of the game. I'll admit, CGO, MBO, and Jump Overhaul breathe new life into the game.

But given that this was pseudo-accomplished with FNIS based on animations we made for that platform, Nemesis isn't doing anything all that new for Skyrim aside from behaviors.

Just look at Sexlab animamtions here! These animations are so detailed and unique and made with fnis compatibility (granted, they work with Nemesis as well I'm aware). They worked without Nemesis ever existing, and they weren't designed for Nemesis either.

[DremoraDream]

I wanna point out that it's cool that Nemesis brought out fantastic animations from the nexus modder iRetrospect as well (for anyone who's in this thread who doesn't know - he's the creator of Movement Behavior Overhaul and Jump Overhaul). 

New platforms and programs that make things easier for the creation of mods are welcome in my opinion. If more people enter the scene to add their contributions, the scene only gets better. It's why I love Skyrim/Fallout so much. But I say that Skyrim SE isn't in it's "infancy" anymore. It has well developed tools. Alternatives are always welcome, as are updates. But right now I personally think FNIS is still too good to switch off of for a legitimate "as-close-to-bug-free" playthrough of Skyrim SE, compared to Nemesis and it's corresponding mods.

[superlerk123]

i dont post like... often hence the name but I started using Nemesis about two or three weeks ago and its been amazing.. I hope it gets much more support like the above poster said movement overhauls are great!

[DSAdam97]

I too get some inconsistencies with Nemesis, and more importantly, certain animation packs don't seem to work with it (crashes when generating). I get T-poses immediately after loading, but it jumps back to normal once I move. My mod list is pretty high, so I'm guessing that's why.

I agree that for now, FNIS is the stable and reliable option of the two.

 

 

[Lyyli]

Nemesis is modernizing the development of and democratizing access in contrast with FNIS. It allows new mods to be made that add custom behaviors w/o having to go through a gatekeeper. There may be rough patches now (but there are fewer now than there were last year) and it, or a thing derived from it, are clearly the future.

What's really exciting, imo, is DAR, which while not allowing new things per se, totally changes the difficulty curve in both creating and consuming modules built on it, not requiring either FNIS nor Nemesis, and allowing entirely script-free configuration. And script integration is as easy as "set a global variable".

[Sensual Nautilus]

I've been running smooth sails with FNIS+Nemesis for a while. I just wish Nemesis worked with creature animations so FNIS can be effectively retired, FNIS deserves to have its honourable sunset after almost 8 years or so of service.

[superlerk123]

yup same for me too i wish I did not have to use FNIS anymore i really been enjoying running everything with Nemesis

[ralchemilla]

Why not use both? There is a guide by Aylis where both FNIS and Nemesis are used to complement one another, there is a set of instructions which is really useful, should you wish to try it.

 

[RGB22111]

On 10/17/2020 at 3:27 AM, ralchemilla said:

Why not use both? There is a guide by Aylis where both FNIS and Nemesis are used to complement one another, there is a set of instructions which is really useful, should you wish to try it.

 

 

If you use MO2 it does not even require that much. Have the outputs from FNIS and Nemesis go to their own mods (that can be easily set in MO2) and just run em' both, make sure the mod made by Nemesis overwrites conflicts with the FNIS one and you're golden. It works without issue for me (other than the SL defeat chokeout animation, but it just has an issue with Nemesis no matter what)

[oblivionwithdongs]

for me, FNIS is for dogfuckers and i'm glad to be rid of it, has it even been updated in the past 5 or so years?

in all seriousness i'm just happy to retire that clunky program and use something sleeker, have had zero problems like the op describes, although i don't use CGO

edit: not disparaging dogfuckers, it's merely a joke, fuck whatever you want, except kids

[Scrab]

The only real issue I had with Nemesis thus far is the arrow placement when using a bow

The arrow doesnt line up properly with the bow. Using 3rd person arms in 1st person and this turns every archer playthrough into a nightmare (Even the non stealth archer ones!) so I went back to FNIS. No QoL gimmick Anim Mod is compensation enough for this issue and I didnt found a way to fix it

 

Ive also experience more CTDs with Nemesis though when I say "more" I mean once every 10hours instead of never.. which is granted a pretty big increase but it doesnt really matter all that much

Something I also realized is how Nemesis often counts twice as many animations as FNIS does. I never digged deep into why that is though the "use Nemesis because FNIS has a lower animation limit" isnt exactly convincing when 3.7k Animations in FNIS is counted as 7.5k in Nemesis

Then theres also the no creature anims. I dont really care about this though (maybe I should.. are there any cool Werewolf Anim replacers?) 

 

 

[MonVert]

On 11/23/2020 at 11:31 AM, Scrab said:

The only real issue I had with Nemesis thus far is the arrow placement when using a bow

The arrow doesnt line up properly with the bow. Using 3rd person arms in 1st person and this turns every archer playthrough into a nightmare (Even the non stealth archer ones!) so I went back to FNIS. No QoL gimmick Anim Mod is compensation enough for this issue and I didnt found a way to fix it

 

Ive also experience more CTDs with Nemesis though when I say "more" I mean once every 10hours instead of never.. which is granted a pretty big increase but it doesnt really matter all that much

Something I also realized is how Nemesis often counts twice as many animations as FNIS does. I never digged deep into why that is though the "use Nemesis because FNIS has a lower animation limit" isnt exactly convincing when 3.7k Animations in FNIS is counted as 7.5k in Nemesis

Then theres also the no creature anims. I dont really care about this though (maybe I should.. are there any cool Werewolf Anim replacers?) 

 

 

 

Nemesis is counting both Male and female, is my guess, and probably any duplicates.

 

Nemesis itself has nothing to do with arrow placement, though and it shouldn't be causing your game to crash. (I'm not even sure how it could, unless you have some sort of buggy behavior/animation file to begin with.)

[Scrab]

12 hours ago, MonVert said:

Nemesis itself has nothing to do with arrow placement, though

All I can tell you is that looking up or down with a bow drawn looks like this with FNIS:

Spoiler

 

and with Nemesis:

Spoiler

 

Using the same setup, only swapping FNIS + FNIS generated files with Nemesis + Nemesis Generated Files

Thinking about it "The bow doesnt like up with the arrow" would be more accurate

 

12 hours ago, MonVert said:

and it shouldn't be causing your game to crash

I remember CTDing when having Nemesis installed, I cant remember CTDing with FNIS installed. It could just be coincidence, as it happens pretty rare either way. I admit I never bothered about going after this CTD. If I remember correctly it was one of the nodes glitching out, I figured it might be because an animation messing up SMP causing this error which causes a CTD? Is that possible? I have barely any knowledge when it comes to Animations and Nodes and Bones and Stuff and as mentioned, this CTD happens so rarely I see no reason to track it down. I also dont know how to reproduce it

[MonVert]

Why are you swapping your FNIS files out? You should leave your FNIS files alone, and just disable FNIS itself before you run Nemesis.

[Scrab]

Im using MO2 and dump all FNIS generated files into their own "FNIS Output mod" and do the same for Nemesis. Thats an issue? (Kind of awkward if it is)

[MonVert]

9 minutes ago, Scrab said:

Im using MO2 and dump all FNIS generated files into their own "FNIS Output mod" and do the same for Nemesis. Thats an issue? (Kind of awkward if it is)

 

No ideas how you should be doing it for MO2... Vortex just creates a FNIS Data folder by default, but it sounds similar. Either way, something real funky is going on with your skeleton.  I get the sense that XPMSE isn't being picked up in some fashion... ?

[RGB22111]

17 hours ago, Scrab said:

Im using MO2 and dump all FNIS generated files into their own "FNIS Output mod" and do the same for Nemesis. Thats an issue? (Kind of awkward if it is)

 

I've never had that arrow issue so I can't speak on that but how you're doing your outputs is the same as the way I do them. You do have it set so nemesis' output mod overwrites FNIS' output mod right?

[Scrab]

1 hour ago, RGB22111 said:

 

I've never had that arrow issue so I can't speak on that but how you're doing your outputs is the same as the way I do them. You do have it set so nemesis' output mod overwrites FNIS' output mod right?

 

I have 2 custom mods in MO2, 1 called "FNIS", the other called "Nemesis Output" and have Nemesis throw all its files that usually end up in Overwrite thrown into Nemesis output and all FNIS generated files that are usually dumped into Overwrite dumped into FNIS:

Spoiler

 

 

analogue for FNIS