Assisted Suicide?

[winny257]

35 minutes ago, Alkpaz said:

Spoiler

I would only agree with assisted suicide if the person is terminally ill and would rather live a life without dying in pain, this was the reason Robin Williams did what he did. He was diagnosed with Lewd body which could lead to parkinson's. Although, I do think he did that prematurely, since you can have somewhat of a life even with it. But, people with terminal cancer or other disease that 100% will result in death should have the option to "check out" if they feel they want to. There are some states in the US that provide a drug so you can pass peacefully and as pain free as possible.

 

"Death with dignity laws, also known as physician-assisted dying or aid-in-dying laws, stem from the basic idea that it is the terminally ill people, not government and its interference, politicians and their ideology, or religious leaders and their dogma, who should make their end-of-life decisions and determine how much pain and suffering they should endure."

 

"Six states and Washington, D.C., have death with dignity statutes:

California (End of Life Option Act; approved in 2015, in effect from 2016)

Colorado (End of Life Options Act; 2016)

District of Columbia (D.C. Death with Dignity Act; 2016/2017)

Hawai‘i (Our Care, Our Choice Act; 2018/2019)

Oregon (Oregon Death with Dignity Act; 1994/1997)

Vermont (Patient Choice and Control at the End of Life Act; 2013)

Washington (Washington Death with Dignity Act; 2008)"

 

"Users switched to the powdered form, which costs between $400 and $500, Eighmey reports, though Compassion & Choices says it has sold for $350. Patients have used a new cocktail or paid $3,000 to $5,000 for a legal dose of secobarbital, according to Death with Dignity. - Oct 16, 2015"

Apparently, "Big Pharma" wants to profit even in the event of your own death. 

"In European countries where assisted suicide is allowed, the price for a lethal dose remains at between $400 and $500."

 

https://www.deathwithdignity.org/take-action/

 

suicide
Suicide and suicide attempts are in Germany unpunished. Impunity, of course, does not include those cases where others have been harmed or even killed by the attempted killing.

 

Active euthanasia
The active euthanasia, the killing of a person is punishable, regardless of the motives of the offender in Germany. It is classified as homicide (§ 212 StGB, one to ten years deprivation of liberty), as far as no express wish of the victim is provable. If the perpetrator was moved to action by the express and earnest request of the victim, one takes mitigating a killing on request (§ 216 StGB, six months to five years imprisonment).

[iJaVaFx]

On 5/11/2019 at 8:41 AM, KoolHndLuke said:

 I figure the source of most criticism is from people frustrated with life in general (to put it mildly). I mention this because of a friend of mine that is suicidal and is asking me for help in ending his life. I don't want to for various reasons and wonder if his life is really as bad as he makes out. I mean, I can understand wanting to die sometimes. But I also believe that some people could benefit from a different outlook on life. I will keep trying with him even though I don't really know how to help him. He is very set in his ways and very cynical about everything and everyone. He's had success and enjoyed the better things in life from what he has told me. But now that those things are gone, he just wants to check out.

Maybe you should take a drink with him and see life on an other perspective, for some people it's just a phase where they got difficulty to pass threw. To read is situation like that maybe psychological help won't be good for him, having 1 hand, and what seem to be a cancer from what i read, would logically make it worse, i don't want to make it an insult, but who would have the wish to live in a situation like this it's a natural human emotion, a good laugh with him might help more. 

[DarksideTinkerbell]

1. You help him then he brings you down as well, cause that is jail time. Then maybe you get lucky and you just meet somebody who can show you just how bad life can really get.

 

2. If he has a roof over his head, food and friends that support him then he is an attention seeking wanker simple as that, suicide is 99% a solo thing and 99% of them will do so without warning anyone cause they DON"T WANT TO BE TALKED OUT OF IT. Only maybe 10% of suicides are really truly justifiable (serious illness that will result in death anyway but a long road of pain and agony first as an example)

 

3. If you want to do him a favor show him just how bad life can get, I am sure like most countries you really don't need to look far to find the homeless, destitute, cast away and forgotten.

 

Personally I would fuck him off, done so in the past cause they don't really want your help, they just want you to justify the blame they keep.

 

Yeah sounds harsh but more over it is very true.

Of course Magnesium Wire works well, create a story about somebody decapitating themselves with wire (there are true stories online google that shit) then make a noose out of magnesium wire (important must be a noose, the twisting ensures it is weakened) then do a practice run, tie the other end to a pole tell him to run fast, it will hurt like hell, even cut a little might if he is lucky leave a scar for a week or two. He will feel stupid as fuck, in pain and realize he isn't so serious about suicide as he thinks.

[Guest]

22 hours ago, DarksideTinkerbell said:

1. You help him then he brings you down as well, cause that is jail time. Then maybe you get lucky and you just meet somebody who can show you just how bad life can really get.

 

2. If he has a roof over his head, food and friends that support him then he is an attention seeking wanker simple as that, suicide is 99% a solo thing and 99% of them will do so without warning anyone cause they DON"T WANT TO BE TALKED OUT OF IT. Only maybe 10% of suicides are really truly justifiable (serious illness that will result in death anyway but a long road of pain and agony first as an example)

 

3. If you want to do him a favor show him just how bad life can get, I am sure like most countries you really don't need to look far to find the homeless, destitute, cast away and forgotten.

 

Personally I would fuck him off, done so in the past cause they don't really want your help, they just want you to justify the blame they keep.

 

Yeah sounds harsh but more over it is very true.

Of course Magnesium Wire works well, create a story about somebody decapitating themselves with wire (there are true stories online google that shit) then make a noose out of magnesium wire (important must be a noose, the twisting ensures it is weakened) then do a practice run, tie the other end to a pole tell him to run fast, it will hurt like hell, even cut a little might if he is lucky leave a scar for a week or two. He will feel stupid as fuck, in pain and realize he isn't so serious about suicide as he thinks.

Don't do any of that, ever.

 

I am not going to argue bioethics, as I've already commented that I support the right to die, that being said... If you know anyone who is suicidal, direct them to help or call an emergency number. Yes, they might respond negatively, yes they might be doing it for attention. They're in distress, I think reasonable people, especially friends, can forgive them for that. Please do not try to give them a lesson in "tough love" or try to dismiss their pain. Just because there are others in more difficult situations does not make their pain any less. Having your attitude is dismissive and is equivalent to saying "just toughen up".

[DarksideTinkerbell]

Every day I wake in pain and agony, everyday for that fleeting moment I wish for Death to arrive and take me away, in Death there will be no pain... My friends and family have known for years what I go through, they know that it is beyond them to help.  My best friend came over the other day, to drive me to Hospital he carried me to the car, carefully lay me down on the back seat. I was curled into a ball, in the fetal position the pain was so great I had vomited but could not move away from the stink and the mess. He wiped my mouth and silently drove me to hospital. My pain is great, but at times it is epic-ally great in scale, so much so morphine has no effect, the hospital has to dose me with a drug that knocks me out cold, they put all the gizmo's on me, and a drip to feed me morphine and a cocktail of drugs. All to relieve the pain so I can go home. NOT to cure the cause of the pain, NOT to make it so I am free of the pain. They can only ever releave me of the pain, make it less than what it is.

 

My normal day I wake in dread, often barely able to move. But I get up, I try to eat, I have a HOT soothing shower. I go to work, I visit friends, I walk every day (my walks are refreshing but always there is the pain) I smile at everyone I meet, I laugh (even though now even that hurts) I sometimes make new friends (only the rare few stick around, once they realize, that my smile hides an agony that I and many others have no choice but to live with, if we are brave enough, strong enough to live).

I have Endometriosis and to rub it in also Fibromyalgia, my Endo is so advanced it not only means I can never have children, but, it is now also spreading to other organ and muscles in my body. It is a death sentence for me, an undetermined one as there is no real way of knowing how fast or slow it is spreading to other places, or which organs it will harden and kill first. To top it off, my Fibro is newly diagnosed in my case but thought to be a result of my advanced Endo. I have looked at my pain killers I know exactly how many to take for there to be no pain any more. I have driven to work or a friends, and imagined myself swerving into an oncoming truck. But I have NEVER asked a Friend or Family member to kill me, NEVER. If I ever did then I am no friend to them I do not love them, respect them, or care for them. To ask for assistance in killing myself would be cruel and unusual punishment. Why would you do that to a friend or family, basically ask them to Live the Rest of Their life knowing they helped bring an end to you. That to me is cruel, real friends do not ask friends to do that. They might ask for help, they might ask for a shoulder to lean on, they might ask to hold hands on a counselling appointment. But a real friend would never ask a friend to live with the memory of helping them kill themselves... 

 

Oh and yes "toughen up cause seriously wanting to end it cause it was better back when... is a fucking cop out"

[Grey Cloud]

Several points here (in no particular order).

 

If this guy is seeing medical people about his diabetes related problems then he is already seeing professional help. The professionals will be well aware of such things as suicidal thoughts.

 

All you who are saying he should get professional help are really just saying he should get help which persuades him to think according to your beliefs. If he wants to top himself then why should he not be allowed to?

 

Obviously getting involved in helping him would be to enter a legal minefield.

 

 

[Grey Cloud]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfXrUm7iWpE

 

[KoolHndLuke]

9 hours ago, DarksideTinkerbell said:

Every day I wake in pain and agony, everyday for that fleeting moment I wish for Death to arrive and take me away, in Death there will be no pain... My friends and family have known for years what I go through, they know that it is beyond them to help.  My best friend came over the other day, to drive me to Hospital he carried me to the car, carefully lay me down on the back seat. I was curled into a ball, in the fetal position the pain was so great I had vomited but could not move away from the stink and the mess. He wiped my mouth and silently drove me to hospital. My pain is great, but at times it is epic-ally great in scale, so much so morphine has no effect, the hospital has to dose me with a drug that knocks me out cold, they put all the gizmo's on me, and a drip to feed me morphine and a cocktail of drugs. All to relieve the pain so I can go home. NOT to cure the cause of the pain, NOT to make it so I am free of the pain. They can only ever releave me of the pain, make it less than what it is.

 

My normal day I wake in dread, often barely able to move. But I get up, I try to eat, I have a HOT soothing shower. I go to work, I visit friends, I walk every day (my walks are refreshing but always there is the pain) I smile at everyone I meet, I laugh (even though now even that hurts) I sometimes make new friends (only the rare few stick around, once they realize, that my smile hides an agony that I and many others have no choice but to live with, if we are brave enough, strong enough to live).

I have Endometriosis and to rub it in also Fibromyalgia, my Endo is so advanced it not only means I can never have children, but, it is now also spreading to other organ and muscles in my body. It is a death sentence for me, an undetermined one as there is no real way of knowing how fast or slow it is spreading to other places, or which organs it will harden and kill first. To top it off, my Fibro is newly diagnosed in my case but thought to be a result of my advanced Endo. I have looked at my pain killers I know exactly how many to take for there to be no pain any more. I have driven to work or a friends, and imagined myself swerving into an oncoming truck. But I have NEVER asked a Friend or Family member to kill me, NEVER. If I ever did then I am no friend to them I do not love them, respect them, or care for them. To ask for assistance in killing myself would be cruel and unusual punishment. Why would you do that to a friend or family, basically ask them to Live the Rest of Their life knowing they helped bring an end to you. That to me is cruel, real friends do not ask friends to do that. They might ask for help, they might ask for a shoulder to lean on, they might ask to hold hands on a counselling appointment. But a real friend would never ask a friend to live with the memory of helping them kill themselves... 

 

Oh and yes "toughen up cause seriously wanting to end it cause it was better back when... is a fucking cop out"

Thank you for sharing that and I sincerely wish you the best. I cannot even begin to imagine how hard that must be. You are a very strong person to try and carry on with a smile. 

[Grey Cloud]

20 hours ago, DarksideTinkerbell said:

wanting to end it cause it was better back when... is a fucking cop out"

A cop out of what?

[DarksideTinkerbell]

1 hour ago, Grey Cloud said:

A cop out of what?

maybe its an Australian term? A cop out means to lay blame where there is none to be laid, to take the easy excuse and not face the facts, to be a coward and run from the problem, that sort of thing

[Grey Cloud]

39 minutes ago, DarksideTinkerbell said:

maybe its an Australian term? A cop out means to lay blame where there is none to be laid, to take the easy excuse and not face the facts, to be a coward and run from the problem, that sort of thing

I know what the term means. I am asking what it is copping out of? Or, if you prefer, how is it a cop out?

[DarksideTinkerbell]

26 minutes ago, Grey Cloud said:

I know what the term means. I am asking what it is copping out of? Or, if you prefer, how is it a cop out?

The OP's friend from what I can see, he wants to commit suicide because the worlds a mess, he is a mess, it was all better in the past. To me thats a cop out. Suicide is for sure not the answer, he should be taking a profound look at himself, asking the hard questions..."If it was so much better in the past, why is it not possible to do it all again?" "Is it really that the world sux balls, or is it really that he thinks he is owed an easy life?" Sorry to say but people like that, those who for some reason it is always because off... always think the threat of taking their own life is the way, why? Simple those that get sucked into caring will give them as much an easy life as they can,  because they don't want to feel responsible for a friend committing suicide. It is manipulation pure and simple, they don't really want to kill themselves they really just want somebody to stop them, thats is why they mope about "nobody loves me every body hates me I am going to the garden to slash my wrists and hang myself, please don't try to stop me..." And of course we do stop them, because if we don't well they just might try, likely of course they will fail (often the reason, they really didn't want too, they really just wanted somebody to stop them, to save them). I have known other women in my life who have suffered Endo, some of these have lived for many years before finally giving into the pain, Endo starts for many that first year of puberty the first time we bleed. So we suffer and endure literally our whole adult lives. My fantasy land is my childhood before puberty before that first blood, that short time in my life is the only time I have known a life without pain. Yet I don't complain about how bad the world is, how life is unfair, how I have gotten the worst end of the stick and all that crap. I am almost 50 my first blood I was 12, do the math.

So yeah the OP's friend should toughen up, suicide especially in their case is a cop out. Somebody mentioned diabetes sure it's nasty depending on the level but if he thinks his life is worthless because of it then it is not the diabetes he should be worrying about. As to the OP sounds like a genuine nice guy, but consider that your friend isn't crying for help, but manipulating you instead. If you want to stay nice ask him,"why do you try to make me responsible for your well being? Why do you think the only way to keep our friendship is to make me feel obligated to you?" I bet he can't answer, take him to a shrink then, tell the doctors he is severely suicidal, he will get all the attention he wants and much much more.

[DarksideTinkerbell]

Maybe my generation are harder, I can not really say. As I do not know the age of this friend, or others for that matter, I don't really care in a way age is after all just a number... But I will say this the younger and I mean under 30 maybe even 40 are to me a bunch of self important the world owes me diamonds and gold cry babies who quit as soon as they realize shit can get hard, diamonds and gold are fucken rare commodities, and those that have them seriously do not want to share unless you are willing to work for it...

 

Oh and in case you think I am referring to you, because you are in that age group. Well maybe I am, if the shoe fits as they say. If on the other hand you are one of those awesome people that realize life is hard, respect is earned, gold and diamonds are mined which is really hard and often dangerous work. Then let it be known your awesome.

 

Otherwise "if the shoe fits" and.. "lies are harmless, real hurt comes from the truth"

[Grey Cloud]

17 minutes ago, DarksideTinkerbell said:

Suicide is for sure not the answer,

Why not?

 

17 minutes ago, DarksideTinkerbell said:

If it was so much better in the past, why is it not possible to do it all again?"

Because he suffers from several severe health problems which are irreversible and are destroying him and his quality of life. How can he do it all again?

 

17 minutes ago, DarksideTinkerbell said:

Sorry to say but people like that, those who for some reason it is always because off... always think the threat of taking their own life is the way, why? Simple those that get sucked into caring will give them as much an easy life as they can,  because they don't want to feel responsible for a friend committing suicide. It is manipulation pure and simple, they don't really want to kill themselves they really just want somebody to stop them, thats is why they mope about "nobody loves me every body hates me I am going to the garden to slash my wrists and hang myself, please don't try to stop me..." And of course we do stop them, because if we don't well they just might try, likely of course they will fail (often the reason, they really didn't want too, they really just wanted somebody to stop them, to save them).

This absolute nonsense and totally indefensible. You cannot possibly know every case so you cannot possibly know that it is 'always' anything. If what you say is true then there would be no suicides anywhere - potential suicides would either get talked out of the act or not do it because they never intended to.

 

17 minutes ago, DarksideTinkerbell said:

Somebody mentioned diabetes sure it's nasty depending on the level but if he thinks his life is worthless because of it then it is not the diabetes he should be worrying about.

It is not his life which is worthless, and whose definition of 'worth' are we using, but his quality of life which is a totally different issue.

 

EDIT: Just saw the other post. I'm 61.

[DarksideTinkerbell]

23 minutes ago, Grey Cloud said:

Why not?

 

Because he suffers from several severe health problems which are irreversible and are destroying him and his quality of life. How can he do it all again?

 

This absolute nonsense and totally indefensible. You cannot possibly know every case so you cannot possibly know that it is 'always' anything. If what you say is true then there would be no suicides anywhere - potential suicides would either get talked out of the act or not do it because they never intended to.

 

It is not his life which is worthless, and whose definition of 'worth' are we using, but his quality of life which is a totally different issue.

 

EDIT: Just saw the other post. I'm 61.

Your reaction has made me read back, just to be sure of things. Suicide is not the answer for most, maybe for him sure. But, I stick with what I have said to the OP a real friend would never burden a friend with what he has asked. It is cruel and unreasonable.

It would not surprise me to find an easy fix online, as they say "Google is your friend". This is what he should do take responsibility for himself, not ask a friend.

 

And you are right I don't know the full details but I have known a lot of death in my time. Many women with Endo take their lives many. And all those I know who have, did not tell somebody they wanted too, did not ask for help, they just did it. Only found out when their body was found. All those that have told others they want to die, they are going to commit suicide, all of them just wanted to be heard, to be stopped and to be saved. They all were stopped, heard and saved, but some years later did commit suicide, when they did though, nobody knew until it was done... So yeah I can say safely in my experience those that cry are really just after a helping hand but those that mean it do it.

[Grey Cloud]

So you have now changed from your original sweeping genralisations and you still haven't explained why you think that suicide is a bad or negative thing.

[DarksideTinkerbell]

25 minutes ago, Grey Cloud said:

So you have now changed from your original sweeping genralisations and you still haven't explained why you think that suicide is a bad or negative thing.

I consider suicide the cowards way out. In my own case death would be such a pleasant reprieve from the daily pain I live in. But because I consider suicide a cowards way out, and I am a self proclaimed stubborn bitch, it means I would never consider it an option. Yes I have fantasized about it, but always I have turned it away, sometimes it is like a dance the temptation so great for that reward of there being no pain. 

That is my reason, I know that it is not really a substantial one, nor really does it make sense. If you have ever experienced pain so bad even morphine cannot take away its edge, then that is my world almost every day now. There is no cure, no fix Endo is for life, progressively it gets worse not better. 

 

To contradict myself though (cause above all else a giggle is by far the essence of life) I fully understand why, somebody would want to die, in my circumstances, and after reading back the circumstances of this friend. Because of what I fight to live through I have met 100's of people in similar situations of severity. Some have lived long lives a silent fight every day for the pain and ails they endure. While others have gone quietly into the night seen only once found, I still cried for them but not because they were dead, I cried because they were finally at peace, I cried cause I was happy for them. So I know the temptation, I understand the pull death can have on those that suffer and endure. But when I feel it pull at me, I remind myself that I am a Stubborn Bitch and Suicide is the cowards way out. (Lately I also remind myself of all the people I would hurt if I did commit suicide, I tell myself that if I did it would be selfish of me, as I have neglected to acknowledge that they may actually want me to stay around...)

[Grey Cloud]

45 minutes ago, DarksideTinkerbell said:

I consider suicide the cowards way out.

That is just your opinion and has no rationale other than your own prejudice. I could just as easily argue that not committing suicide is the coward's way because it smacks of a fear of death.

[DarksideTinkerbell]

25 minutes ago, Grey Cloud said:

That is just your opinion and has no rationale other than your own prejudice. I could just as easily argue that not committing suicide is the coward's way because it smacks of a fear of death.

Yes you could. I have explained with an opinion, it is a cowards way out, I also have suggested that it is a selfish act, inconsiderate of those that love and care for a person.

 

I could expand but it is crass by definition, disrespectful even especially to that unknown reader that just may have had a friend who did commit suicide. By giving a terrible but accurate example. I won't though.

 

Suicide is not something anybody can rationalize, that in itself means that neither fore or against can really be honestly and openly explained or justified. The main reason for this is the Individual. Everybody will eventually see death, feel its pull. But for as many voices there are just as many reasons to fear or embrace the idea of death. Man Kind has spent centuries giving it meaning, life, encouraging fear or embrace. Turning it into romance or horror, religious Faith or personal Belief. Suicide is just one of the many ways Death can come for us, the difference is Suicide is one of the few self inflicted ways to find death. Suicide is a way to cut in front of the line, shortcut to the end of the journey, cheat fates hand, quit without facing the fallout.

 

So your question to rationalize "Why Suicide is bad or a negative thing" cannot really be answered as an Individual must really find that answer in themselves, if they feel that suicide is their only option. I can rationalize my opinion for myself, "I LOVE life, I want to experience it all, I want to embrace it, I want to feel that taste of sweet whatever..., why? Because I would never be so naive or arrogant to think I have already done all I can possibly do" so when I feel that pull, I say Suicide is a cowards way out, cause I am not afraid of death, I would embrace and welcome it, but to commit suicide means I am admitting defeat to what I endure, to what ails me, and that means I am Afraid to live, but I live to face my fears.

[Grey Cloud]

14 minutes ago, DarksideTinkerbell said:

Suicide is not something anybody can rationalize,

Suicide has been discussed for thousands of years and by by soem of the greatest minds we have produced thus far. Your views are influnenced by your culture and its Christian heritage. The same is true of your concept of 'life' and by extension, 'death'.

[KoolHndLuke]

8 hours ago, DarksideTinkerbell said:

I am a self proclaimed stubborn bitch

LOL!! Carry on soldier. 

 

I do sort of agree with Grey Cloud, though. Suicide may be the better option for a person in some (extreme) situations. Obviously, you expect a person to look for other options, ANY other option. But those options sometimes may not be available. My friend is more "mulling over his options" rather than wanting help I think. Given his personality, I think he has been considering suicide for a very long time and has just never had the conviction to go through with it. He has thought about it for so long that he can't help but mention it I think.

  It's better to know that someone I care for is thinking about it and see what we can do about it rather than someone I care about just "checking out" one day, leaving me without a clue as to why. When they just go, telling you nothing, then you're just left to guess till the end of your days, possibly feeling kinda guilty for things you might have done or think you could have done better.

[Grey Cloud]

49 minutes ago, KoolHndLuke said:

It's better to know that someone I care for is thinking about it and see what we can do about it rather than someone I care about just "checking out" one day, leaving me without a clue as to why

That's another factor for any would-be suicide to contemplate. It's one thing to commit suicide and solve your own problems but it leaves others with a new set of problems to deal with.

[KoolHndLuke]

13 minutes ago, Grey Cloud said:

That's another factor for any would-be suicide to contemplate. It's one thing to commit suicide and solve your own problems but it leaves others with a new set of problems to deal with.

Well, I hate to admit it, but the few times I did think about suicide.... I had revenge on my mind as much as ending any suffering. I seem to remember thinking something along the lines of "I'll show them!". I was pretty young and immature at the time. I've had a few friends just end it without saying anything and it hurts to think that they didn't care enough about me to let me know something. Maybe they didn't want to be talked out of it? Maybe sympathy was the last thing they wanted? Still seems awfully selfish.

[wokking56]

17 hours ago, KoolHndLuke said:

Well, I hate to admit it, but the few times I did think about suicide.... I had revenge on my mind as much as ending any suffering. I seem to remember thinking something along the lines of "I'll show them!". I was pretty young and immature at the time.

 

The whole "suicide is a bad thing" argument is linked to the predominately Christian make-up of our society today. While I can understand how some may feel that it is their only remaining option I personally have never found it to be a very good one.

Hell now at the very beginning of my retirement age I am already wracked with constant pain and decreased mobility. Partially from age but mostly due to injuries over the years (sports injuries [dislocated shoulder broken ankle} / fall from about 30 feet [partially my carelessness partially faulty safety equipment] / 2 car accidents and several surgeries), yet never once have I thought to end my life. There have however been numerous other lives I thought about ending, mostly because they were the cause of my pain or suffering.

[dagobaking]

I'm fairly certain that it's illegal to "help" people commit suicide (finding them guns, etc.). Even in the states with assisted suicide it is highly regulated.

 

I would avoid even hinting to the guy that you will help him do this or you could land in deep shit.