GenioMaestro Posted April 9, 2019 Posted April 9, 2019 I see that there are many people who have a wrong idea. Change the loading order in the middle of the game can cause problems ??? Never. The game can change the order of the plugings at any time and without causing any problem. If some functionalities of a mod stop working by moving it in the order of loading it is a problem of that mod. I want to make it very clear that "Change the load order in the middle of the game" refers ONLY AND EXCLUSIVELY to order the plug-ins. It has absolutely nothing to do with ELIMINATE mods. The game can have MANY problems by eliminating a mod in the middle of the game. And to solve those problems I will put another message. PLEASE DO NOT MIX THE THINGS. THEY ARE DIFFERENT PROBLEMS WITH DIFFERENT SOLUTIONS. And I also want to make it very clear that "Change the load order in the middle of the game" can generate and create many problems in the game if it is BAD MADE. But it can also solve and repair many problems in the game if done WELL. The game, or rather, the mods, NEED a good loading order. Surely the mods will not work correctly with a bad load order and they will do weird things and you will have black faces and you may have missing dialogues, because all that has to do with a CORRECT LOAD ORDER. PLEASE DO NOT MIX THE THINGS. IT HAS NOTHING TO SEE A PROBLEM WITH THE OTHER. Many problems can happen because have an INCORRECT loading order but they are NOT CAUSED by "Change the loading order in the middle of the game" And many times these problems can be solved by changing the loading order of the game, because normally it is done to SOLVE problems. Additionally, "Change the loading order in the middle of the game" includes ADD plug-ins. Because the game does not have any problem when adding a mod in the middle of the game. As long as we respect the installation instructions. Obviously, we have to have the dependent mods installed because if we do not have them, the game may not start. And it is not necessary to put the NEW pluging at the end, rather it is NOT RECOMMENDED. Because the NEW pluging can collide with any of the plugings installed and to reduce problems IT IS RECOMMENDED to order the plugins and follow the basic rules that say that Alternate Start and Bashed Patch MUST be at the end. ---------------------- Leaving all this clear I can begin to present documentation. Beginning with the OFFICIAL page of Bethesda that does not have any reference to problems in the loading order. https://help.bethesda.net/app/answers/list/kw/"load order"/p/373/platform/3 One of the most important and most referred pages by many people, STEP, does not have any reference to problems in the loading order. Rather it says the opposite: https://wiki.step-project.com/STEP:2.10.0#2.A._LOOT_Sorting And if we look at UESP the same thing happens to us: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Tes5Mod:Getting_Started#Load_Order_Optimization 99% of the Skyrim players have a manager that can be NMM, MO or Vortex, and I guess you all know what a MASTER in Skyrim. Just in case, I will tell you that a special file that has priority and that is placed BEFORE any normal pluging. When we install a mod with a MASTER, such as Sexual Fame, it is placed under all the masters and above all the normal plugins. When the manager, NMM, MO or Vortex, does that it is displacing ALL the normal plugins and is changing its internal code. And no warning message appears saying that this operation invalidates the savegames or that it could cause a problem. It will be because doing that is not dangerous and nothing happens. Vortex users should know that Vortex has integrated LOOT. And when we install a mod or activate or deactivate it, Vortex automatically executes LOOT. And of course Vortex can change the order of the plug-ins. And no warning message appears saying that ordering the plugins is dangerous. It will be because doing that is not dangerous and nothing happens. If we use LOOT, which is the tool recommended by ALL web pages to order plug-ins, there is also no warning message that says that ordering plugins is dangerous. It will be because doing that is not dangerous and nothing happens. And if we launch the game and load the savegame, there is no message saying that the loading order has changed. A message will be show if a plugin is missing. And that means that the game knows what plugings we had when the savegame was made. Why does not a message come out that says we have ADDED a plugin or that we have CHANGED the order of the plugings? It will be because doing that is not dangerous and nothing happens. The web pages recommend that the plugins be ordered and do not alert of any possible problem. Managers change the order of loading and do not alert of any possible problem. The game accepts the new loading order and does not alert of any possible problem. It will be because there is no problem. ---------------------------------------- We go with the technical details. Effectively, the game saves the list of plug-ins within the savegame and does so for a good reason. To relate the information saved in the savegame with the new loading order. But the game leaves no record of it and the only site in it is registered in the SKSE log and anyone can see it. We just have to change the loading order, launch the game, load the savegame and close the game. In the file skse.log that is usually in Documents\My Games\Skyrim\SKSE we can see something like this: Spoiler Loading mod list: (0 -> 0) Skyrim.esm (1 -> 1) Update.esm (2 -> 2) Dawnguard.esm (3 -> 3) HearthFires.esm (4 -> 4) Dragonborn.esm (5 -> 5) Unofficial Skyrim Legendary Edition Patch.esp (6 -> 6) BeeingFemale.esm (7 -> 7) SMSkyrim.esp (8 -> ? SexLab.esm (9 -> 9) SexLabAroused.esm (10 -> 10) Devious Devices - Assets.esm (11 -> 11) ApachiiHair.esm (12 -> 12) ApachiiHairFemales.esm (13 -> 13) ZaZAnimationPack.esm (14 -> 14) MiasLair.esp (15 -> 15) Campfire.esm (16 -> 16) Inn Girls Resources.esm (17 -> 17) Devious Devices - Integration.esm (18 -> 18) Devious Devices - Expansion.esm (19 -> 19) CreatureFramework.esm (20 -> 20) EagleEyePerk.esm (21 -> 21) Falskaar.esm (22 -> 22) moonpath.esm (23 -> 23) ITortureFramework.esm (24 -> 24) PSQ PlayerSuccubusQuest.esm (25 -> 25) paradise_halls.esm (26 -> 26) Schlongs of Skyrim - Core.esm (27 -> 28) HighResTexturePack01.esp (28 -> 29) HighResTexturePack02.esp (29 -> 30) HighResTexturePack03.esp (30 -> 31) Unofficial High Resolution Patch.esp (31 -> 32) Weapons & Armor Fixes_Remade.esp (32 -> 33) DW.esp (33 -> 34) SLAL_AnimationsByLeito.esp (34 -> 35) SLALAnimObjBillyy.esp (35 -> 36) NibblesAnimObjects.esp (36 -> 37) WetandCold.esp (37 -> 38) RohZima_AnimObjects.esp (38 -> 39) EnhancedLightsandFX.esp (39 -> 40) PredatorsLostTribesV1.esp (40 -> 41) 3DNPC.esp (41 -> 42) zzEstrus.esp (42 -> 43) FISS.esp (43 -> 44) PermaZONESLegendaryHardcore.esp (44 -> 45) BeeingFemaleBasicAddOn.esp I install Sexual Fame and my manager put it in position 27 and of course move all my plugings one position down. As you can see the game dynamically renumbers all the plugins and relates the old code, saved in the savegame, with the new code that comes from the new loading order. And it does it PRECISELY so as not to cause any problems. The game loads each record of the savegame and maps it dynamically to the new code that has the pluging in the new loading order. And it transfers absolutely ALL the savegame information without missing a single byte. That means that each plugin receives all the necessary information, which comes from the savegame, to be able to function WITHOUT ANY PROBLEM in the new position that corresponds to it according to the new loading order. And this means VERY CLEARLY that the game has no problem reading a savegame with a different loading order. And that is why it does not show any warning message. Obviously, you can do all the tests and verifications that you want and you will reach the same conclusion. Moving the plugins in the loading order does not affect them at all. Because as I just explained to you the game dynamically redirects all the savegame information. I know that years ago we had a lot of problems caused by changing the load order in the middle of the game. And i'm going to explain why and i'm going to do it in a very curious way. During the years 2012 and 2013 Beth was patching the game and any mod with reference to deleted master records caused CTD. Today, in 2019, I do not know a single mod that has that problem because all the mods with that problem have been patched. During the years 2012 and 2013 the mods were damaged when the load order was changed in the middle of the game. Today, in the year 2019, I ONLY know ONE who has that problem because all the other mods with that problem have been patched. I guess that you are smart enough to understand what i'm telling them. It means that the problems we had years ago when the order of loading was changed were caused by the mods. The game NEVER had a problem changing the loading order in the middle of the game. Bethesda NEVER patches a problem in the loading order and can look at the patch history and check it. https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Patches_(Skyrim) The problem was ALWAYS of the mods. And all those mods have been corrected and today, in the year 2019, those problems do not exist. If necessary, do your own tests and your own research to convince yourself. Please, stop thinking as if we were in 2013. The mods and utilities have advanced a LOT and many problems have been corrected. Today, in the year 2019, the game has practically NO problem. If you find a problem when changing the loading order I am completely sure that it is a problem in ONE MOD. Do not accuse the game of having a problem that not have. And do not accuse ALL mods of having a problem they do not have. If a mod is damaged by moving it in the order of loading it is a problem of THAT mod and it is the decision of the programmer to fix it or not. But 99.99% of the mods are not ruined by changing the order of loading in the middle of the game. And do not start telling me that the problems appear over time and that you can only see the problems when you have been playing for several days. That is a gross lie to infuse false fears. A game is a program and like all programs it always does the same. If today not work tomorrow will not work. But if today works good it will continue to work good the rest of the days. If something does not work in a mod is because that mod has a problem and the most obvious proof is that the rest of the mods work perfectly. All these problems happened in 2013-2014 and were caused because the modders did not know what the VMAD records were doing. The technical basis of the problem is very long to explain, but if someone wants to explain it, you just have to ask for it.
GenioMaestro Posted April 9, 2019 Author Posted April 9, 2019 Reserved for explain the problems in the VMAD records.
GenioMaestro Posted April 24, 2019 Author Posted April 24, 2019 53 minutes ago, Sulrandir said: Oh, come on, he's fun. He's willfully, almost militantly, about six miles away from the point, presenting supposition and out-of-context information as evidence of his baseless, overwhemingly disproven hypothesis. A lone, brave voice of deliberate ignorance railing against a sea of sanity, reason, and concrete, endlessly reproduceable results based on established fact, information, and controlled experimentation. It's like watching one of those Flat-Earth YouTube videos: you chuckle, shake your head, and quietly hope they're not on the same commuter route as you. But I get it; it's a fruitless argument pulling the thread wildly off-topic for no reason. @GenioMaestro: if you truly have evidence, documentation, and information that contradicts the established, accepted "don't change load order mid-playthrough" dictum, I'd strongly recommend you start your own thread. The impact of such a discovery would spread far beyond just the users of SLD; since this is the normal recommended practice throughout the entire Skyrim/Fallout modding community, and has been for years. If you've truly found a way to swap script-heavy mods (or any mods, really) in and out mid-playthrough with no adverse effects to mod or vanilla functionality, literally EVERYONE needs to hear it, not just the handful in here. If you have any way for probe the things that you say i beg you try explain it.
Grey Cloud Posted April 24, 2019 Posted April 24, 2019 @Sulrandir I have been chopping and changing my load order mid-game for three years. I don't have any problems. As an example, somewhat extreme even by my standards - My current save has 189 hours on the clock and my PC is level 72. I don't know when exactly but, say, from level 50 I have been installing and uninstalling mods. I have installed the 3 DD mods plus CD and a raft of DD related mods of various sizes. Some of the latter group I have uninstalled because e.g. I didn't rate them. I've also added and removed several follower mods, several armour mods and a few other mods of various shapes and sizes. I'm currently at approx 225 active plug-ins and 295 mods. Installed plug-ins is approx 245. If you never do this then how do you know it is unsafe?
Tiress Posted April 24, 2019 Posted April 24, 2019 3 minutes ago, Grey Cloud said: If you never do this then how do you know it is unsafe? I'm not commenting on changing the load order, but removing mods was never supported by the game and it was advised against on multiple occasions by SmkViper. I don't think it automaticaly means that it would break your game, but from what I read the results of it are unpredictable. You might never notice it or it might crash right away.
Grey Cloud Posted April 24, 2019 Posted April 24, 2019 17 minutes ago, Tiress said: I'm not commenting on changing the load order, but removing mods was never supported by the game and it was advised against on multiple occasions by SmkViper. I don't think it automaticaly means that it would break your game, but from what I read the results of it are unpredictable. You might never notice it or it might crash right away. After three years I think I would have noticed. "removing mods was never supported by the game " - neither was adding them.
Tiress Posted April 24, 2019 Posted April 24, 2019 12 minutes ago, Grey Cloud said: After three years I think I would have noticed. "removing mods was never supported by the game " - neither was adding them. What I meant was that it might not be noticeable simply because it's impact could be so minor it wouldn't collide with anything.
Myst42 Posted April 24, 2019 Posted April 24, 2019 The mere thought that "changing the load order breaks the game every time" is simply ridiculous Anyone who's been playing and paying attention should know that all mod managers change load order all the time. Been playing for many, many years, and got used to changing-removing-adding mods mid-game as a routine, and never had a single problem related to it. In fact, changing load order is more often than not, the solution to many problems people report since stuff overwrites records. Is it true that there are people who think changing load order actually breaks games? Cause that makes no sense at all. Does this mean people should start a new game every time they install so much as an armor? That is just completely bonkers. Nobody ever does that. I have heard only rumors of the only specific cases where changing load order can cause a certain type of "corruption" but normally, I've been moving stuff since forever and not even once have I encountered an issue related to "load order" that could not be fixed precisely, by changing it even more. Now, removing a mod mid-game though, is a different story. But so far, what seems to work all the time is using save game cleaning tools like Re Saver or Save Cleaner to "remove orphan scripts" that do get baked into the savegame and everything usually works just fine.
Grey Cloud Posted April 24, 2019 Posted April 24, 2019 5 minutes ago, Myst42 said: But so far, what seems to work all the time is using save game cleaning tools like Re Saver or Save Cleaner to "remove orphan scripts" that do get baked into the savegame and everything usually works just fine. Exactly what I do (Save Cleaner guy, myself). I also take some elementary, common-sense precautions - when removing an armour/clothing mod don't save in a cell full of people wearing the armour clothing; removing a mod which alters buildings, go to a cave and save; etc.
Tiress Posted April 24, 2019 Posted April 24, 2019 Put aside how stupid idea would it be, I wonder what would happen if I saved the game in a cell/worldspace added by a mod, removed the mod and loaded the save. Would it crash? Would I levitate in an empty space with nothing around me? Would the game teleport me to closest valid location? I think I'll try it out just to see what happens.
yatol Posted April 25, 2019 Posted April 25, 2019 27 minutes ago, Tiress said: Put aside how stupid idea would it be, I wonder what would happen if I saved the game in a cell/worldspace added by a mod, removed the mod and loaded the save. Would it crash? Would I levitate in an empty space with nothing around me? Would the game teleport me to closest valid location? I think I'll try it out just to see what happens. you are load in riverwood tavern as for that bullshit topic.... the other one is again at it..... /facepalm the "expert" can put immersive armor under bijn npc without problem? so what? game don't load that, it load aela from your save that is the last esp... moving around some bsa also doesn't matter if you have loose files that overwrite that, position of the stuff that isn't load doesn't matter here's one problem, you have mod x that fix some navmesh for npcs to stop crashing into wall or whatever you have 3dnpc, that edit some navmesh for npcs to find the mod stuff you put mod x under 3dnpc for some reason, you will now ctd (3dnpc stuff is still there, npc have no idea how to get there with mod x navmesh, it's a ctd) if you know what you are doing, you can do anything if you don't know... your fail is just a matter of time, if you can see it you have dragon mod and you have put requiem last because you are told to do it maybe you weren't able to see it, but you don't have dragon mod, requiem is overwriting it and if that mod is adding some new dragons to leveled list, you won't see them by putting the mod after requiem, it's too late (leveled lists are in the save, and moving around the stuff that isn't load... that don't do anything)
GenioMaestro Posted April 25, 2019 Author Posted April 25, 2019 4 hours ago, Tiress said: Put aside how stupid idea would it be, I wonder what would happen if I saved the game in a cell/worldspace added by a mod, removed the mod and loaded the save. Would it crash? Would I levitate in an empty space with nothing around me? Would the game teleport me to closest valid location? I think I'll try it out just to see what happens. You must make many test many times with many mods in many locations. The real thing is a lotery based in my experience. Some times the game make CTD but others times lock on load. If the game load your player can drop to the infinite and you can use the console and type "coc [location]" but others times you are automatically teleported to a safe location. As you can understand I already have tested it and the result depend of the mod and the situation. Aditionally, remove a mod WITHOUT SCRIPTS that add armors or weapons or change ilumination or climatology, normally, is not a problem and the game can made it on the fly. No matter if you have the armor equiped or if you have the weapon in the hand. Of course, the real result can depend of the exact mod, but NORMALLY, is not a problem. Finally, remove a mod with script is NOT A PROBLEM if you not change cell. The big problem of the un-attached scripts reside in the events fired by the game. When a mod register for a event like OnCellLoad or OnCellChange or OnLocationChange the game fire the event and call ALL the script registered for the event. If one of them is un-attached the game can make CTD or can enter in a undefined state because the script are REALLY executed and the consecuences are totally unpredictables. If the mod not have any of that events the game not have any problem. I play for days with a lot of un-attached scripts. Following that rule i never had a problem when remove mod WITH SCRIPTS. Not matter how many scripts or what make the mod or if the mod have active scripts. When you load a savegame with a fauting pluging the game can not run the quest scripts because are connected to a quest that not exist, because the pluging is not loaded. Can execute others scripts externals to the quest, for example in magic effect, but normally that scripts fails because try connect to a quest or an object that not exist, because the pluging is not loaded. Only as example, i can reduce my plugings list from 237 plugings to 17 and i can load my savegame. I save it, clean it with Resaver and load it. The 17 active plugings works without any problem. I can reactivate my 237 plugings and load the savegame with 17 plugings and the game start all the mods as never has been installed. The only problem reside in the aditional data stored in the SKSE co-save by mods ussing JContaines and PapyrusUtil because that data are not cleaned and some mods can make extrange things. Really, i NEVER had a problem after trying have it a lot of times making aberrant things with my savegame for 6 months for be totally sure about the things that i say.
Sulrandir Posted April 25, 2019 Posted April 25, 2019 I think you've all misunderstood my intentions. I don't actually give a shit about this argument; I was just suggesting a way to get it OUT of the original thread, where it didn't belong. Anyway, I'm sure it's all very interesting and will serve as a useful resource for anyone who cares. Good luck with it.
Grey Cloud Posted April 25, 2019 Posted April 25, 2019 4 hours ago, Sulrandir said: I think you've all misunderstood my intentions. I don't actually give a shit about this argument; I was just suggesting a way to get it OUT of the original thread, where it didn't belong. Anyway, I'm sure it's all very interesting and will serve as a useful resource for anyone who cares. Good luck with it. So in other words, you cannot back up anything you said.
RW311 Posted April 25, 2019 Posted April 25, 2019 Changing load order can have a very similar effect as eliminating a mod, this is why I would disagree with this statement "Never. The game can change the order of the plugings at any time and without causing any problem." Most of the time it doesn't break anything but it can and probably will cause problems. Navmesh can be removed now you have npc walking forever against a rock, npc inventories and most obvious is facegen which is a very common problem seen here these will be broken by load order changes, ref ids can be changed or removed by load order switch because of overwrite or merge patches which can cause potential ctd or fail to load save again. If changing load order is needed then you must verify the outcome of the final load order either manually looking through the new conflicts created or at least testing in game before running with any saves made afterward. once you commit to it you may find camilla valerius is still a sloot but she now has no head and how can you have immersive relations with her when her head is floating around in lakeview manor while her body is sweeping a bucket in the rivewood store?
GenioMaestro Posted April 25, 2019 Author Posted April 25, 2019 3 hours ago, RW311 said: Changing load order can have a very similar effect as eliminating a mod, It has no relation, please, think a little. The game shows an alert when you try to load a saved game with a missing pluging, but the game does not say anything when you change the loading order. How can you think they are the same? 3 hours ago, RW311 said: Most of the time it doesn't break anything but it can and probably will cause problems. And you do not want to know why? How is it possible that sometimes it is a problem but other times it is not a problem? No one has determined WHEN and WHY is a problem and WHEN is it harmless? Please, read my first post and make some test in your own game for see with your own eyes that change the load order, for example, adding the MASTER file from Sexual Fame, can NOT cause any problem. Do you see any alert in the download page or the manager or the game??? Do you see any problem or fail when you play with the new MASTER in you actual gameplay??? Then, add a MASTER that change the internal code of ALL the plugings is NOT a problem because the game recompute all the data stored in the savegame whitout any problem. I think nobody can doubt about that. Now, think a bit. I go to presume that your npc replacer are in position 55 before add the master and when you add it, or course, change to position 56. If that is NOT a problem WHY you can have a problem when you move your npc replacer to the position 88??? Because a fail in the game??? Of course, not. If the game can move the pluging from the position 55 to the 56 whitout any problem, by pure logic, the game can move it from 56 to 88 whitout any problem. Try make it with another mod and verify it. For example, try move SLSO and make all yours efforts for break it moving the load order. Is imposible because the mod work perfect in any position of the load order. Then, i ask again: WHEN and WHY some mods have problems? The first motive is caused by CONFLICT in the ESP's because when you move your npc replacer you are changing what records are overwrited when the game load the ESP's The second motive are INCOMPATIBILITY with the existing data stored in the savegame and the best way for verify it is start a NEW GAME and see if the new head load correcly. When you load a savegame you already have a Change Form record that have the information about the head mesh and have some specific flags. When the game load the savegame, of course, try show the head mesh stored inside the savegame but that record has been overwrited by the data that come from other ESP. If that mesh have diferent flags can be INCOMPATIBLE with the stored information and the game can made CTD or simply not show the nif and you have no head. The solution to this problem is open the console and change the race, for example, to argonian, and change it again to your normal race, for example, breton. That force the game to discard all the information stored in the Change Form related to the mesh and permit load and show the new head mesh. A similar problem happend when you try change the hair to your vampire player because the vampires are a special race that are computed by the game in a diferent way. For example, convert to vampire, open RaceMenu and change the hair. RaceMenu can made it, true??? Select your new hair and save the changes. Hooo??? What happend??? Not show your new hair??? Why??? Because the game compute the vampires in a diferent way. Save your game and load it again. Solve any? Not, the new hair not show. Now, CLOSE the game completely, go to your desktop, open the game again and load THE SAME SAVEGAME. WOOOOW... the new hair show whitout any problem.... Why??? Because the game compute the vampires in a diferent way and the way is DIFERENT when you completely close the game. Some bad thing are stored in cache and not allow show the new hair on the fly. All the problems that you related are caused by having a INCORRECT load order or bad CONFLICTS in the ESP's or INCOMPATIBLE data stored inside the savegame. Maybe that mean that we can NOT move the load order??? Of course, not. The game allow it by a very good motive. For solve the problems in the load order. Is the way we use for solve the CONFLICTS. Because when you have a problem in the game, the first thing that you make is save the game, change the load order, load the SAME savegame and look if moving the ESP solve the problem. Of course, the game store a lot of data inside the savegame and that stored data can give problems. One of the most worst operations that you can made is save the game when you have problems. Making that you are storing BAD data inside the savegame and you can enter in a stupid circle without end trying understand why the things not works in the way you want. And the only solution is delete that BAD savegames and load a savegame without problems. If you not have any good savegame you must start a NEW GAME. The game not have any problem for move the plugings because when load the savegame all the data stored inside the savegame with a code are converted to the new code. When i say "all the data" that really mean ALL THE DATA. The game recompute all the objects codes, update all the properties in all the scripts and allow you continue playing whitout any problem. If you do not know this, it's about time that you learn it. For 7 years we have played the same game.
GenioMaestro Posted April 25, 2019 Author Posted April 25, 2019 14 hours ago, Lupine00 said: On the (genuine) topic of load orders and SexLab Disparity, it is by design, very flexible about where you put it in your order. The latest version should work almost anywhere. Some of the older versions, not so much - and I can't promise that future versions will be as forgiving, though I try to avoid introducing hard dependencies, or soft-dependencies that are LO sensitive. Also, there's probably still scope for me to improve how some mods are referenced. For example, it doesn't check that you've actually started your Apropos, just that it exists. Because there are few, if any, mods that it conflicts with at the ESP level, and as it doesn't hold references to other mods in stored state, you may, in many cases, get away with moving it in your LO - however, if that results in other mods moving, it might not end so well. In general, safer not to do it - and why would you need to anyway? Anyone who has been modding for a while discovers for themselves that moving mods around in the LO can screw up their game. There are - in practice - many mods you can move without causing problems, and many others that will make stuff go weird, often in ways that don't show up immediately, and result in CTD somewhere down the track, or straightforward old broken script behaviour. Excuse me, but your mod NEVER can have problems with the load order. NONE mod have problems when is moved in the load order because the game allow made it in any moment. The only way for have problems is having a INCORRECT load oder because the first rule say that the masters mods must be loaded before. If your mod have any HARD dependency of another mod your mod MUST be loaded AFTER that mod. That is a real rule that nobody can discuse. But when talk about SOFT depencies the load order is totally indiferent. The SOFT depencies are created with pure papyrus code and if you have any problem only can be caused by errors in your code. Is imposible have a problem with a SOFT depency caused by the load order. When the game execute the first papyrus script all the game has already been initialized and that mean that all the ESP's are in their position and the data from the savegame has been procesed and all the properties has been updated. Is imposible run a script before the game initialization. You can run your script BEFORE others mods are totally initilized and that can give you problems. Maybe you only need made a delayed initialization because maybe others SOFT dependant mod can need more time for really active. Please, read all the things that i write and make your own test for see with your own eyes that the game not have any problem for move the mods in the load order.
Tiress Posted April 25, 2019 Posted April 25, 2019 17 hours ago, yatol said: you are load in riverwood tavern Really? Wow, I didn't expect that, that's actually cool if the game has some mechanism to handle it.
Whizkid Posted April 25, 2019 Posted April 25, 2019 not sure whats the problem change order of mods would not break anything since the references is provided by the mods to the game engine and save game does not hardcode the references. and removing mods depends on the type of mods and only those badly written mods will break your game, anyone who does programming knows this and FFS stop blaming the game engine if things go wrong a good programmer would understand and work around any limitations!!!! my 2 cents
yatol Posted April 26, 2019 Posted April 26, 2019 18 hours ago, GenioMaestro said: It has no relation, please, think a little. The game shows an alert when you try to load a saved game with a missing pluging, but the game does not say anything when you change the loading order. How can you think they are the same? if loading a save without a mod was a ctd, like trying to load the game without dawnguard if you have a mod that require it, there would be a lot of whining so you are allowed to do that, and if you fail, that's your problem
RW311 Posted April 26, 2019 Posted April 26, 2019 "It has no relation, please, think a little. The game shows an alert when you try to load a saved game with a missing pluging, but the game does not say anything when you change the loading order. How can you think they are the same?" The example I gave which is not uncomnon at all shows very clearly how load order can cause missing or deleted references to be priority which is exadtly the same as if you removed the mod that was the loser. If mod a adds new studded armor to the game and changes reference id then mod b is loaded and changes reference back then mod a might as well not exist, this is basic stuff which makes me think you are way to defensive over this trivial crap. If you remove this statement there is nothing to argue about here..... Never. The game can change the order of the plugings at any time and without causing any problem. Spare me your essays I don't require a response just correct your opening paragraphs before this crap circulates around and all the faux modding experts start quoting it out of context.
Grey Cloud Posted April 27, 2019 Posted April 27, 2019 16 hours ago, RW311 said: Never. The game can change the order of the plugings at any time and without causing any problem. While I agree with you that this statement needs to be altered - Never say 'never'*, I would not define your example as a 'problem'. A waste of time having the overwitten armour installed, yes - but a problem? * Or 'always', 'every', etc.
Myst42 Posted April 27, 2019 Posted April 27, 2019 Just now, RW311 said: The example I gave which is not uncomnon at all shows very clearly how load order can cause missing or deleted references to be priority which is exadtly the same as if you removed the mod that was the loser. If mod a adds new studded armor to the game and changes reference id then mod b is loaded and changes reference back then mod a might as well not exist, this is basic stuff What does that even mean? I'm not sure I understand the idea behind this argument. Sorry if I'm misreading this, but I really didn't understand a word. Anyone who has used Tes5Edit and understood what they were doing, knows the game overwites references only for as long as the have the same ID code, excepting the first 2 digits. If vanilla game has studded armor with code 00, and some mod alters it, the game wil overwrite vanilla armor with modded armor features using the same ID code. If the mod is changed in load order, just check Tes5Edit and you'll see the ID code remains the same as the vanilla game, but the form is tagged as an overwite form in the new mod. If the mod is removed, the mod will still use vanilla armor with the same code, except this time it will be using vanilla properties, because the came can revert to a previous reference design as long as the reference exist in an esp/esm file. The idea that simply because a mod changes load order, the overwritten ID codes simply "get removed" is beyond insane. it would be literally impossible to move any mod that alters a vanilla record if that were the case. Now if this post refers to removed ID codes which are not overwrites, but native to a mod instead, then it also sounds wrong because the game dos not keep references from absent mods in existence. It simple deletes them like they never existed. So if anyone is worried because an NPC added by mod A will cause CTD because it cant find a reference that it included when manipulated by mod B, then fear not, because unless mod A has a dependency on mod B that points to the absent reference, the NPC will behave according to its unaltered properties just as if mod B never even existed. And as far as I know it's impossible to make mods mutually dependent. There is always a master and a user. Unless we're talking about script properties references, which is the only case in which properties only get established once. And in that case, we still need to be talking about a still-existing reference, attached to a script set to no-longer-present properties, which, when read, will now point to "NULL References". And that NEESDS a mod to be REMOVED from the load order, cause if the mod was just changed from load order, it will ALWAYS find the reference, except instead of using something like "0600L87A" it will locate the mod by name and re-calculate its ID to something else like "3B00L87A" Wrye Bash has a feature that even allows to re-direct references when a mod has changed its name. Opening a save will say the mod is no longer there and it will appear red, but if the same mod exists under a different name, Wrye Bash can fix this manually by telling the save to use the mod's new name instead of the old one. And everything will keep on working like it never even happened.
Grey Cloud Posted April 27, 2019 Posted April 27, 2019 41 minutes ago, Myst42 said: I'm not sure I understand the idea behind this argument. To be honest, neither did I but I don't know enough about this to make a case. My understanding was/is that if you install, say, a leather armour replacer it is only the meshes and or the textures which get replaced. That is the game is re-directed to a different folder or folders while the actual ID stays the same (apart from the first two digits).
Myst42 Posted April 27, 2019 Posted April 27, 2019 Just now, Grey Cloud said: To be honest, neither did I but I don't know enough about this to make a case. My understanding was/is that if you install, say, a leather armour replacer it is only the meshes and or the textures which get replaced. That is the game is re-directed to a different folder or folders while the actual ID stays the same (apart from the first two digits). Basically, there are 2 types of references in a mod. Native ones, and Overwrite. The native ones belong to a specific mod. On pic below, the mod has index number set to "02", so all references starting with "02" belong to it, but it also has references that overwrite the vanilla ones, which are labeled "00" Now, to have overwrite forms, an esp/esm needs a master. Overwrite forms cannot exist without a master, and the game wont even open if an esp/esm is master-less As for form use, you can see on the right panel, that the definition of the form has 2 designs, one being the vanilla one and one being the modded one. The ID code does not matter, it will always be 00 because it's an overwrite, so no matter what place you give to the mod in load order, the form will always be 0008F19C, and if the mod is moved, it will sill be 0008F19C, and if the mod gets removed, it will remain 0008F19C because the form only exists natively in Skyrim.esm, not in the modded file, and in that case, the game will revert to reading the design as it was made on the vanilla style instead of the modded one. Spoiler Regarding native forms, it can be a bit different, because in that case, the index is not always 00, and sometimes it can be "02" or "7A" or whatever, but even if load order gets changed, if the form exists, the mod retrieves it from the file by name, and assigns the new index to it, from the mod's retrieved new index. As pic related, the new index on new setting is now 05 instead of 02, and any mod pointing towards it, will adapt to read the new index. That means if in this case, mod B existed and wanted a form from mod A, it would not care where the mod was loaded, cause it would always find the way to its native reference. If it was loaded second, the overwrite from mod B would start with 02, if it was loaded fifth, the overwrite mod's reference would start with 05, and if you move mod B instead, it couldn't care less, because it points to the native form of mod A, whatever index that one has. Mod B could have index "8C" and it would still point to 05 in a overwrite form. Spoiler Just as a quick experiment to further define this, (And because it's fun to made these quickie experiments) I made a simple thing: First, a simple file, using Skyrim.esm as a master, Mod A has 2 forms, one native, one override Then we have ModB, which is linked to ModA as a master. Mod B overrides the native form from ModA Notice the index as read on both ModA and ModB, is 01. Spoiler Then we introduce a new variable and call it Mod0 Mod0 is specifically designed to interfere with load order as it takes up one slot before loading ModA, so ModA's index is no longer 01, but 02 instead. The result and what must be understood from this, is that ModB will keep on reading the override form as retrieved from the new index, even if the load order changed, and now the new ID is 02 instead of 01 Spoiler The new index will be used for everything, and in game, if anything asks, it will use the index by mod name. as long as form asks for ModA, the game will always locate the new index by name. If you played the game on the first setting and typed "help CustomArmor1" on the console, to wouldve said the code was 01000800, but if you would've made the same console question on the second setting, the console would've answered the code is 02000800
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